Lousygolfer,

It's great to be back (for now anyway). And thank you for the excellent advice!

I plan to look it over again when I have more time and reflect on the different points you have made. Plus I want to look into the Reverse Babble stuff.


In my posts, I have been referring to Withdrawal as a "state of mind" (Intimacy, Conflict, Withdrawal) as described on the MB website.

Also, I have been looking at Plan A as a healthy way to improve myself and our marriage for as long as I am unsure of whether or not there is a Physical Affair going on.


Would you believe the child was a "she"?


Oops. I blew it on that one. And I know better. I learned about "I feel…" lines in a communications class at a University before I got married. It's just that I find myself giving in to his style of communication too often.

Using good communication is how I got his confession (looking at other women and lying about it for years) out of him. I do wonder if I made it too easy for him when I did it though, since after he broke the silence, I gave him an example of what I meant that may have set him free of admitting to the possibility of a Physical Affair. But I knew I could not accuse him of something that might not exist.

With my heart visibly beating through my chest as we lounged on the bed and while discussing our marital problems, I said to him, "I feel like I am not the only woman in our marriage". This was perfect because it was not an accusation but it opened up the "can of worms". I looked him in the eye when I said it and he looked me in the eye in response with what I understand to be his "adultery frown" (certain frown he makes as soon as he realizes that I know he's been looking at other women).

I searched his eyes for ANY possible indication of guilt he could give me and he looked into my eyes for ANY possible indication of what I could know about him. We stared at each other for what seemed like an eternity. There was silence. And more silence. And even more silence. Then he looked away and said, "I can't believe you're saying that".

You've got to be kidding. Is that all he could say? That was nothing like what I wanted to hear. I wanted to hear something like this, "Honey, I love you. You are my wife and I am faithful to you. Even though I find myself looking at other women, it's not because I want them, it's only because men find women attractive. I'm sorry to have hurt you by doing that and I'll do my best to change it. What is it that makes you feel there is another woman? Do you mean an Affair?"

After he broke the silence, I gave him an example (explained the wandering eyes stuff) of why I felt that way. He denied it by saying that he doesn't look at other women. I looked at him and firmly said, "You're lying to me. You can't build a relationship on lies."

Somewhere during our exchange of words, I also said, "If I'm not the only woman, what makes you think I want to have sex?"

There was more silence – almost an entire hour! I didn't leave the room because I wanted him to make the first move or be the one to break the silence. I was looking for clues, anything at all. Finally it was time to put our youngest son to bed and I was scheduled to get on an airplane for a trip early the next morning.

It was almost 24 grueling hours later that he emailed me with his confession (looking at other women and lying about it). I cried so hard that night before I went to bed out of pure RELIEF that not only he admitted to what has hurt me deeply for years but also over the possibility that this problem could be only "just looking" and not a Physical Affair.

But in the back of my mind, it did occur to me that a confession of this type could be an easy way out. In other words, if he thinks that I don't suspect a Physical Affair and he makes a confession for "just looking" but he's doing more than that, then he could think he is off the hook.

So I still have him tracked, tested and other things (being alert). Granted, it feels awkward to make love with him the night before I track him, he has given me reason to not trust him. If he had not lied the first time I brought up this issue years ago, I wouldn't be feeling the need to get more answers today.

Plus I keep reading that it's not adultery that ruins a marriage, it's the lying.


I let him know how I feel all the time. But now that he's reading how I feel in Dr. Willard Harley's books, I think he'll begin to take it seriously.


Today was a breakthrough.

Even though last night my husband passed judgment again while we prepared for our 1-hour Monday Undivided Attention time, we managed to read chapters in the MB course books. There wasn't much conversation but it was better than being negative with each other.

Since (my version of) Plan A started, he has been emailing me (and I email him) from time to time after he gets to work. But this morning there was no email. Instead, he called me (to my delight).

He used the words I have often used when I would call him, "I just called…to say…I love you". So I burst out laughing, not only to hold back swelling tears but also because it made me happy (and relieved). My 10 year old son came running down the hall and into the bedroom to ask me what was so "funny"! My husband (on the other end of the phone) and I were still laughing – hard.

At first, we found it difficult to carry conversation, but after warming up with small talk, it turned into a 45 minute phone call (he was supervising on the job).

This phone call was MAJOR for me and made me feel like living again (good thing he RE-READ the chapter on Affection last night). You see, in all our 23 years, he would never call (except on my birthday, anniversary) unless he was going to let me know that he was going to be GONE for lunch. I grew to despise those phone calls since they had come minutes before he was expected for lunch – they were always last minute, never to say "I love you", and always to give me BAD news. Plus he made me feel like he had to get off the phone (there were more important things to be doing).

When he would travel with his sibling for business, he used to tell me that he couldn't call me while he was gone. That he had no private time to call (his wife). If that didn't make me feel completely worthless, I don't know what did.

Foolishly, I pleaded and begged for calls. But it didn't work, UNTIL I began to travel with the kids. Then WE would call home every night. He began to see the value in making a simple phone call to your loved ones. So lately when he travels (less than I do now), he takes the time to call us.

So, yes, I think we are making PROGRESS.

About feeling like living again…

Here's a story that I haven't told my husband yet, but I plan to do so during the course IF he comes clean with me (like he's supposed to). If he's going to get everything from my heart, then he has to share his heart too.

One time, a very handsome, intelligent and supposedly Christian married man approached me and wanted to go out for dinner with me and my older son (the reason I was traveling). I told my son, who called to warn me in advance, that I couldn't go out to dinner (with them). My silent reasoning was that I didn't want to start any relationships with other men, no matter how innocent. I just wanted my son to continue with his hobby/education and I would pick him up when necessary. But this gentleman PERSISTED with pleading warmth, smiling kindness and a touch of sensuality. I had to turn him down cold in front of my son, who couldn't understand why I was so adamant about not going to dinner.

Being frazzled that the situation had even occurred in the first place, I couldn't come up with the words to explain to my son that his Dad wouldn't like that, and that this man should be going out to dinner with his own wife, not with me.

But when we got home, my husband said "You should have gone (to dinner with him)". I was furious inside! What was he trying to say? If I did that, he would be insanely jealous! He also made me look foolish in front of my son who I was trying to give a good example to.

Getting back to the story, it turned out that the next day I couldn't avoid another occurrence with this gentleman since I was assigned to be the driver for both of them (him and my son).

The following days I wondered why those occurrences were bothering me. What was going on? Why was I having these feelings? Why couldn't I think about something else? After all, I wasn't interested in any relationship but the one I already had. So what was the problem?

Being the "thinker" that I am, I concluded that I was sensitive to this man's kindness because it was LACKING in my marriage. That was the week I realized my marriage was in trouble. I kissed my wedding ring, came home and kissed my husband warmly (which he keenly noticed and commented about later) and then bought (with my money) an entire bedroom set (romantic environment) to make sure that I felt better about our sexual relationship.

I didn't want my husband's needs to be unmet simply because mine were being unmet. If it was that easy for me to be affected by another man being the faithful wife that I am, how could it be for my husband who had a wife with a Sexual Aversion toward him?

I knew that I needed a better environment to communicate with him – in the way he understands, that is PHYSICALLY. I decided that if he communicates physically (sex), then that's how we were going to communicate! That's when our sex life began to really improve.

When my husband asked about the changes, I told him that I just wanted to "do something for our marriage". He turned over and looked at me with a surprised look on his face as though he was thinking, "Is there a problem with our marriage?"

But the AFFECTION element was still MISSING. So a couple years later, after things were getting worse (avoiding each other during the day), here we are taking the MB marriage course.

Why am I telling this story? Because this experience in my life showed me that I was "something special". It reminded me that if anything ever happened to my husband, there was the possibility of being appreciated by another man. That I was and could become more of the woman I am.

This was liberating for me. It helped me to break away from the negative impressions about myself that my husband had hurled onto me, through his own self doubts.

Thank you for listening...

Observing:

Interesting series of posts, huh?



1. He couldn't see your heart beating. You know it was, and you wished he could have seen the gravity of the situation and the question. But he didn't.

2. He didn't answer your question. "I can't believe you are saying that" is not an answer. My wife asked me about 1 year before d-day, not the same type of circumstances as yours, we were in the dark, and not looking at each other, and I just flat out lied. I said no, I am not having an Affair. Your H didn't say no, and he didn't say yes. If he wasn't having one, and he never had one, I think his resposne would have been in a manner that was beliveable. (Most experts, on this site, etc., state that if you think you spouse is having an A, they probably are). If he had had one, then a flat out denial would have been issued. (BT,DT as described) But it is a denial that doesn't seem sincere.

3. If he had an A, that doesn't change things right now in your M. Think about that. If he was to tell you that 5 years ago he had a six month fling, what is your response to that? Be prepared. You are making progress. And if you really start making progress, some day he might come clean, or you might come into possession of information proving an A happened. How are you prepared for this eventuality? If it ever comes?

4. If he is currently in an A, then we have a more difficult row to hoe. You checking on things is important for you. It will catch the WS eventually. But, you need to have more concrete proof than the fact that he likes to look at other women.

5. No matter which one he is in, #3 or #4, you are executing the things needed to win your H heart. That is Plan A. Start meeting his EN's. And through that process, you can start showing him what your EN's are and guiding him into meeting them. He does not need to know why you are doing it, Just do it. Because depending on #3, or #4, when the real bombshell comes, if it exists, meeting EN's makes the road to recovery alot easier.

So your quote:


If you only are going to do these things because you are "unsure of a PA" then you will lose the marriage anyway. Plan A is for the BS to get better, make the WS realize how great the BS is, and if the WS continues to stray, the BS is free to get rid of the WS because they are a better person. If Plan A is 100% BS working the WS, then even when there is no WS, the other spouse can use the techniques of Plan A to become a better spouse. And a non-WS spouse should respond quickly, like yours appears to have done. Not as quick as you would like, but you have been in this M for a long time, habits and behaviors are hard to break. Your 45 minute phone call? That is a good habit to start. And not every call will be 45 minutes. Celebrate and thank him for calling, even if it is for 10 minutes. It is AFFECTION for you, and APPRECIATION for him.

Now, your conversation in bed, even with all the silence, was still a good thing. Compare it to what might have happened in the past. Storming out of the room, Yelling, DJ's, LB's or even the dreaded silent treatment for DAYS. Is there light in this tunnel?

So, you explained your concern about his wnadering eyes and he said:


That was wrong. He is lying. That's true. But the lies you are accusing him of are not the ones you want to draw a line in the sand over. What do I mean by this? He looks at other women. Men do this, as I explained in an earlier post. Women do too! However, He disrespects you by looking at other women in your presence, and sometimes to an extent that is embarrassing. That is when you point it out to him. Tell him that is what I mean by your wandering eyes. That is what is supposed to stop. If he glances at someone else, and is discreet, he is doing what humans have been doing for millions of years. You want the attention on you. You want to know that no matter what, you are the most beautiful woman in the room. So. You have explained to him how you feel about how he looks at other women in your presense. Point out when he makes it uncomfortable for you when he does it. THen next time, you can ask him "what do you find attractive about that woman?" This could lead to conversation. You could comment on the nice dress, (not in a judgemental manner! in a conversational manner!) and he might respond that he likes her haircut. (He might like her Butt, but let him talk!) It points out that he was being inappropriate. But, by turning it into a conversation, you also get CONVERSATION with your spouse. And if he does look inappropriately in the future, it leads to a pleasant conversation with you, and he becomes more discreet. (Breaking bad habits again and replacing them with good ones) (As an aside, you could ask him about the other womans DATE? Do you think he is CUTE?)

So, if he is lying to you about having an Affair, then that is the lie you want to expose. Him looking at women and denying it, can be construed as a small lie in the great scheme of things. Especially in light of the above. Change the behavior, and the reality of it will become clear.

I would like to look at this a bit:



So, he is off the hook the next time you have sex, right? Watch the ultimatiums. Because, you can go back to having SF with him, and even knock his socks off with it. But, he did email you the next day, validating your wandering eyes concerns, so it did have some effect. You can start building on that. And, he should have comforted you, and expressed something. He might be hiding something. It will come out. See the above info. THe first confession are the steps on the road to getting full confessions. It may take a while, and you may have to work patiently, but they will come. As you become a more complete W for him, then it makes it easier to honest with you.

Now I will tackle your second post:

You now realize how close an inappopriate encounter could have been. You realized the degrading of your M and took a number of steps to address this degradation. You improved the SF environment, and the SF. And then things went downhill again.

This is like the biblical guy pushing the rock up the hill to have it roll down the other side. You have pushed the rock up the hill, several times. Your H hasn't helped, but has enjoyed watching your labor. You need him to help you push the rock. That is the AFFECTION you seek. Phone calls, emails, listening, all help you push the rock. Eventually, your H will respond by making the point of the hill flater and the rock will not roll down again. Then, you can sit there, with your H, and enjoy the view. I think I have gotten to this place with my spouse. Sometimes a wind blows and the rock rolls down, but I am there to help her push. I even take the lead now, sometimes.

The most telling line of your story:



You were good, and he said you should have gone! You knew inside that the dinner was a start down a slippery hill. That man was meeting your EN's. H hadn't been. Dinner could have occurred and then something else could have. (Losing the kid would have been easy, I know from experience) Your H was not aware of all the other things swirling around. He thought you were safe, you were with your son. This man was asking YOU to dinner, not others in the group. You KNEW this. He wanted you. And you resisted, and your H has no knowledge of this battle that you fought. You just see him as surrendering you to the other side. HOW dare he.

I think that this story you related can be an excellent conversation as you get about halfway through the assignments that Harley has for you.

DO you see how many things that story touches on? You wanted him to be insanely jealous, but he wasn't. He was giving you up.

Another man was meeting your EN's, what is wrong with H? Why can't he? He's learning more about them now...

He trusted you implicitly. And you didn't and still do not trust him. (with some good reasons)

You are attractive, and others find you that way.

Let me know how it goes.

Lousygolfer,

Awesome post! I have a lot to think about.

Things are happening fast. So I wanted to comment on your last post before I post any updates of our progress (in the order that it occurred).


Yes, and I can't believe I am revealing my marital problems on this forum.

But I just came to the point in my marriage where something had to be done. I needed to communicate at a time when my husband didn't seem to be receptive. I had no where else to turn.

Needless to say, I truly appreciate your interest, good advice and points for me to think about.


Yeah, like when he bumped a women in the head with a chair leg while adjusting seats in a restaurant after gawking too much!


He hates it when I bring it up.


This I might try! I can see the advantage of getting conversation going, which would also point out that he is being inappropriate and then work on it without LB.


That doesn't make it right.

What if we applied this reasoning to a Physical Affair? Does that mean the Physical Affair wouldn't exist anymore just because it is now discreet? Isn't being "discreet" an ENABLING feature?

I don't want him to become discreet. If he becomes more discreet (as he is now doing), but doesn't change the habit (I think he's trying), then I would feel like he's HIDING something from me and living a relationship with LIMITED honesty. What wife wants that?

Instead, I want him to stop "zooming in on flesh", because he's doing it for the WRONG reasons: "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." -Matthew 5:27-28

What's the difference between Heart Adultery and Emotional Adultery? Not much. I think most spouses here know the VERY REAL danger of Emotional Adultery. What does EVERY Emotional Affair lead to?

You get the point…

I do wonder how husbands would feel if their wives spent as much time TALKING to other men as they spend LOOKING at other women!


FUN idea! I actually might try it. But wouldn't this give him a "ticket" to keep looking?

Progress?

It appears that my 2 1/2 month version of Plan A, along with Dr. Willard Harley's books, is now taking effect.

Here's what's happening. My husband placed a vase of wild flowers in our bedroom recently and continues to change the flowers. He is contacting me regularly via email, text messages or phone calls. He no longer has an erection problem (seemed psychological). He now initiates Sexual Fulfillment frequently (more like what I expected). And SUDDENLY, he decided that we need a bathroom added onto our bedroom for privacy, cheerfully said that we have the money, and then called a local builder on his cell phone during our Undivided Attention time one evening. He said that he is looking forward to our bedroom addition, which now includes a fireplace (his idea), as much as he did our romantic getaway. And that's not to mention his latest words after Sexual Fulfillment, "I'm so in love with you".

Maybe I should take his temperature.

Uh oh…did he see this posting?

Now I'm confused. Is there a bombshell coming?

Okay, I'm going to continue Plan A, the MB course, avoid LB and proceed cautiously.

For the record, here's what I did. Since I didn't have his Emotional Needs list yet, I had to come up with my own list for him based on his TRACK RECORD of PREDICTABLE BEHAVIOR. So I took his wandering eyes problem and matched it with Emotional Needs. Here is the list I came up with (which I assure you he will DENY is true):

1. Sexual Fulfillment (needs sex)
2. Physical Attractiveness (looks for women)
3. Admiration (needs to feel like a man)
4. Recreational Companionship (enjoys the company)

Doesn't that make sense?

Well, Plan A for this type of EN list appears to be working.

Finally!

An Emotional Need came in.

But I am struggling with it a little.

Now that my husband has revealed his #1 Emotional Need during a deep conversation (but before we have filled out the official forms), I wanted to VENT how I feel about it.

I feel two ways:

1. I feel so pleased that he has, what I consider, such an honorable #1 Emotional Need: Honesty and Openness

2. On the other hand, I am FURIOUS that he would choose "honesty" for himself, when he had been so hypocritical and lied to me for 23 years!

How should I go about handling this – with no Love Buster's - once it gets onto the official form?

I don't want him to feel like he doesn't know himself, by telling him how I feel about his choice, which I have to, since it is supposedly his most important need.

And since he claimed that his #1 Emotional Need was Honesty, he inadvertently forced himself to practice it with our first Joint Agreement that we had to come to terms with this last weekend due to a deadline on an event that required "honesty". Can you believe it?

Well, it was quite amazing sitting there, choosing a mutually agreeable option over a Yes/No disagreement (before we had officially reached that part of the course). That's the one thing I didn't think he would accept about the course before introducing it to him.

He agreed, but not enthusiastically. I reminded him that it needs to be an "enthusiastic" agreement so that he does not suffer, and be unhappy, later. He claimed that because of the deadline, we had to do something and he would accept the consequences. I complied.

Observing:

I will answer each post in order. Not reading the next post until I respond to the one before.


Of course he does, you have busted him disrespecting you. Anger is the normal response.



A PA isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about "Looking" and modifying this behavior. So, please keep calling him out on it. And try to make it conversational. I like your line about Talking with other men as much and looking at other women. Use it on him. It's up to your H to modify his behavior. It is your job to present it to him in a manner that is non-jugdemental and he understands why it is hurting you. Makes it easier to change. You are trying to change behaviors that have existed for 20 years. Do not expect it to happen overnight. Think about where you were and where you are going.

As I said in the earlier posts, I like to look at other women as well. I try to be discreet. Because I do not want to offend my spouse. But, If I am having dinner with my spouse, and I look her in the eyes, have conversation with her, compliment her, and engage with her during the evening, then looking around and noticing others isn't being rude to her. She can look at other men as well. We can discuss this now. We could not really do this in the past. This is the difference between being secure in a M and feeling that you are about to be replaced. (Where you found yourself in the past) And, if she expressed displeasure in my looking around, I would do it even less. It's making her unhappy. I do not want to.



This is public, but it is also without names. You are one in 300 million, or 1 in 6 billion? You recognized a problem in your M. Lots of them. You came here for help. We are not perfect. And you are learning methods to talk and communicate with your H that change you M. That is not a bad thing.

Observing:

2.5 months of Plan A? Think of it as the lifetime plan. And your H seems to be beginning to address your EN's.

Which ones?

Affection. (he calls, emails etc.)
Conversation. (he talks and really engages with you)
Your Physical Attractivness (Hooche Hooche Mama!)

And you have made your list for your H. But, you still are suspisious (SP) of his motives. This is you letting down your guard. You do not want to get hurt again. That is true. But, if your H is changing, always encourage this good behavior. One day you will feel secure, (How much better is it now?)

Now this is interesting:



If he denyed it was true, and claimed that Financial Support was most important to him, would it change your behaviors? Yes, you would need to start addressing this EN, and not the ones you think. His EN's are his, your EN's are yours. Your perception of his EN's does not make them his. And they may evolve over time as well.

But, you are probably very close with your list.

OBS:

What is your most important EN?

Would you list H&O first?

Are you being H&O with your H?

You claim he has been lying to you for 23 years, and how can he claim this EN as first?

Once again, are you being H&O with your H?

I will tell you that if you feel you have been lied to for 23 years, you have got a serious problem in your M. And this is very disrespectful of your H. Beacuse I do not sense 23 years of lies in your M. Missed expectations, yes.

You feel that he has had a PA. He may be in one or was in one. You keep searching. Be prepared for it. The techniques you are learning, and your H as well, may lead you to discovering the truth. And he might be the one revealing it.

As for the "offical form" My Spouse whnted to use the "offical Form" to discover as well. But most of the discovery came through conversation and learning about the various concepts. Our first cut at the EN's was done in a manner that seemed not to offend the other spouse. Later, we relisted the EN's as we learned more about each other. Remember that.



EN's are not reserved for one partner of the other. He gets "Honesty" I get to choose from the 9 that are left.

You can both have the same top 5 EN'S.

Also, and this one of the most important things that we learned in this process, that your spouse knows what your EN's are. Subconsiously. And as the M gets worse and worse, the spouses withdraw support of the other spouses EN's. And may even directly abuse the other spouses EN's in order to make the other spouse miserable. Afterall, you are miserable, why shouldn't the spouse be? Its the other spouse's fault anyway.

My spouse would kick heck out of my admiration EN. Why? because it hurt me. She didn't know why, but she knew that the button worked. And I stayed away from the house. Playing golf, working, volunteering, and eventually an A, etc. Beating up her Family Committment need. It was a death sprial. Until we read HNHN, we didn't know what we were doing. Now we do. And we work for each other EN's now.

ANd your first experience with the POJA? Was a little awkward. Why? Because you are learning something new. A better way. And it takes time to get comfortable with it. But it is a better way.

Lousygolfer,


Thanks, that was very helpful.

Perhaps I should explain myself a little better regarding the last post.

When my husband told me about his #1 Emotional Need, he said he had no choice but to pick it because, "That is why I married you". He said it was something he couldn't live without in marriage. I understand, completely.

But as much as he likes having Honesty & Openness in his spouse, apparently he hadn't thought it was important for him to have those same qualities. Otherwise he wouldn't have lied to me for 23 years when I was open and honest about his wanderings eyes and how it hurt me.

I think he has been of the mindset that as long as his wife "shows her hand" at all times, then he never has to worry about how he is going to play his game.

I think this is a hypocritical way of living.

It was when I finally clammed up (silence) and started snooping (tracking, testing, recording) out of suspicion that he realized he couldn't see my hand the same way he used to and realized he had to contribute to our marriage to make it better, otherwise there wasn't going to be much of a marriage.

Just weeks ago while on our vacation and after the subject of wandering eyes came up, he said, "I don't do that anymore" (so there's no need to bring it up). I looked at him surprised and said, "You mean after 23 years of looking, you have changed overnight"? He was silent.

In other words, as much as he likes ME to be honest with him, HE is not necessarily honest with me.

That is why I feel the way I do about his #1 EN. Is it really that he likes to benefit from the honesty of others but doesn't want to give of himself and be honest with the same people he requires honesty from?

I don't think my husband could claim that I haven't wholeheartedly fulfilled his need for Honesty & Openness (H&O) for 23 years. But I do question whether H&O belongs at the top of his list. Perhaps he should put it as #5 on the list that I made for him! Unless it is true that he wants me to show my hand, but he doesn't want me to see his. Or that he really does have plans to become an honest and open person in the future.

You know what they say, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" (sincerity). But if this can be done, then I don't think our marriage has serious problems.

I married him because I believed he would be faithful to me, that is, I could trust him and that he was sincere with me. This explains my #1 EN below, which took on the most importance the moment we made our marriage vows.

My top 3 ENs (the rest I am presently undecided on):

1. Honesty & Openness (sincerity in a relationship)
2. Affection (as basic to me as comforting a child)
3. Conversation (explains my lengthy posts)

Observing - you may want to read the links in my signature line and see if they speak to you.
Mulan

Obs:

Mulan can offer a lot of help. Review her threads.

Ok, But lets look at it this way.

Your H says the O&H is his #1 EN.

You immediatly discount this, state that it isn't and he wants it from all others, but he doesn't need to be that way himself.

Can you see this?

That's how we beat up someone's EN. We know what they are, and then we push that button.

What if he claimed that SF was EN #1?

Would you have reacted the same way? Would you have offered more SF or less? Remember, you did have the sexual aversion to him. (May have been deserved, but that is a different issue to address)

So, take it a face value. And then make him live up to it. "This is what I need to know" "Can you address this in a forthright manner."

You have told him that you suspect that he was in an A. Let him address this issue with you. You really do not have proof. But, as this site says, if you suspect, then they probably are having one. Ask for an answer. Then tell him that his future ACTIONS will minimize your need to suspect him of it. Those future ACTIONS, not words, are being H&O with you, and keeping his eyes on you.

You are making progress. As weird as that seems.

Mulan,

I think you might be on to something!

I found words like sulk, blame, avoid and lie - jump out at me, as I was all too familiar with them on a daily basis.

But my husband doesn't fit ONE of the main descriptions, as he FINISHES every project or job he ever starts. He's very responsible that way, and a dedicated provider.

Still, I want to learn from the information you shared with me. Thank you!

Lousygolfer,


Actually, it's the other way around. HE is having a hard time accepting his own #1 EN.

Let me explain.

Last night, during our Undivided Attention time of practicing Affection, he asked me what I was thinking about (I must have moved my leg in such a way to draw his curiosity).

I paused because I didn't really have much on my mind, but searched my thoughts anyway. I came up with a calm explanation of his earlier comment on "giving up" (the course) if he would have to encounter reminders of the ways he needs to improve (since he concluded that he has so many).

I explained my feelings that if I practiced the same thought process (attitude), I too could give up and we wouldn't get anywhere in our relationship. As an example and practically quoting Dr. Harley, I explained that if he were to give up on Affection, I could, in turn, give up on Sexual Fulfillment.

He instantly got mad at me and demanded, "Why are you talking that way"? I looked at him, confused at what I had supposedly done to him (he was blaming me), and then it occurred to me, so I responded by saying, "You asked me what was on my mind and I was trying to be open and honest with you". Then he realized he was in the wrong for getting mad at me.

This (asks me, then blames me) happens ALL the time.

Yeah right, his #1 EN is Honesty & Openness? I think I'd rather spend my time on lots of Sexual Fulfillment, because at least he thoroughly enjoys THAT.

Isn't an Emotional Need supposed to make you HAPPY when it's fulfilled? Well, he wasn't happy. I think I can reasonably conclude that fulfilling this EN does NOT make him very happy.

But sex DOES. Attractiveness DOES. Admiration DOES. And Companionship DOES.

In summary, fulfilling the EN of H&O did the opposite (made him unhappy). Gee thanks, like I'm supposed to be withdrawing Love Units at a time when I want to DEPOSIT them. That's why this EN is so dangerous being at the top of his list.

But I do recognize the PROGRESS we've made. He used to DENY that he was getting mad at me while he was raising his voice. But now, with his EN revelation, he had to admit it.

My husband is the type that won't budge until you hold up a mirror for him to look into, and then once he sees himself he'll reconsider, especially if he knows you're paying attention. So things ARE happening and he is being more optimistic these days, which I really enjoy!

Keep in mind that before I make any decisions on how I will respond to his #1 EN, I came here with my FEELINGS so that I would say and do the right thing when the time comes.

My husband has NO idea that I have any feelings about his #1 EN because I quietly listened to everything he said to me. I think he was satisfied with his revelation.

So here's my question. If you were me, what words would you use to express my frustrations about his #1 EN?

Words:
" "

Oh my gosh, I may have just answered my own question. If I calmly explain to him how unhappy it makes him for me to fulfill the need for H&O, he may realize that he can't keep it at the top of his list, otherwise I'm going to be in the RED with his Love Bank account very soon!

And hey, I have YOU to thank, Lousygolfer. You are really not that lousy of a golfer as you think! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If not for you, I would not have had the opportunity to see this in a different light. I truly appreciate your help.

Observing, some people only use P/A tactics in their intimate relationships. My H is also extremely successful and very hardworking - he is a high-level corporate executive - and was never P/A at work. He pulled it out and aimed both barrels square at me when I started objecting to his going out with the girls he worked with. He had me damn near suicidal with the P/A stuff before I understood what it was.
Mulan

Mulan,

Whoa!

I see you have far more experience and insight on this than I do. Looks like I have to take this more seriously.

Sure appreciate your help.

Obs - You must remember that P/A people are very heavily invested in remaining victims. That's because if you are a victim, nothing is ever your fault, and if nothing is ever your fault then you never deserve any consequences.

If your husband is using P/A tactics against you, he will use YOUR openness and honesty as an excuse to blame YOU and remain YOUR victim. He will turn anything you say on its head and turn the blame right back on YOU - just as he did in the example you gave.

Get the picture?
Mulan

Mulan,

I hear you. Word for word, that is EXACTLY what I feel like is happening.

Observing:

Mulan may be on to something regarding P/A behavior. There is a long thread on here about it. It may be Mulan's, I have not been there, not an issue for us.

As for your post, I would hate to admit this, but I didn't really understand what you were talking about. So, my response may seem illogical.

Let me start with being a guy, we never have the complete recall that our spouses have when an activity occurs.

Example: (I must have moved my leg in such a way to draw his curiosity) Huh? Did you kick him? Were you sitting next to each other and you bumped his leg? Did you just happen to stretch? Please note, that a silent period between two people, when broken by activity by one party, is usually an indicator that someone wishes to speak.

I do not ask for an answer to this, just that is it important? You were having a conversation with him. For years, you have never had time like this with him. Now you are. Take your time here. Sometimes, it can be all that you are thinking about is the fact that the two of you are together and you are enjoying the moment. You do not have to respond in a confrontational manner. Just let the moments flow sometimes and get into a good habit of being with each other. He could have been thinking about work, that weekends football games or the fact that the pillow in his back was in the wrong spot.....

So, to get to the meat of the convo:



This sounded good. And reasonable. Something to follow up on with him.

We should encounter reminders of ways we need to improve. How else would we? We can yell at someone to do it. Doesn't work very well. We can point out actions that are wrong at the time they occur, and ask for them to stop. We can also bring it up later, such as times like this, and then we say, "This is how I feel about this when you do that", and through POJA, think of ways to aviod these action from happening in the future. Keep it calm.

Then you went here:


Given a little more context, this would not sound as DJ as it looks on its face. The first part really seems DJ to me. The second part is ok.

Then you throw the hand grenade:



Boom, he blows up. Your thinking, where did that come from? Put it all together. "same thought process" "you give up Affection" "I give up SF"

There was a whole lot going on in that. And then you say "I was being Open and Honest" He realizes he is wrong. But did you resolve it?

THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!

Do you see the emotional curveballs in all this? And your H doesn't have nearly the knowledge that you have in regards to this website and Dr. Harleys books.

Openess and honesty is supposed to make you HAPPY, as you state. It does not give you the right to attack. You can temper your words with qualifiers, and add info to make sure your H gets the real point. And sometimes O&H may make the other person mad. (Does it ever make me feel good to hear "How could you have treated me as poorly as you did during your A?) My spouse and I have worked out some areas pretty good. But sometimes, O&H means you just have to lay out there how you really feel. But they need to know a potential blast of some sort is coming. Happened recently. Ouch!

How do you have "frustrations" with his #1 EN? Do you want to prove to him that it isn't?


But that was the question I asked last post isn't it? If it is his #1 EN, go with it and be O&H. Temper those times when he needs to really "get" it. Do not try to prove him wrong. Those are heel marks you see on the floor. You can not drag him to this conclusion. Eventually, you will discover his real #1 EN. and it may be #2 or #3 on the list. But you will know, if you keep up the conversation. You do not even need to ackowledge it. You just do it.

Isn't it better that he is meeting some of your EN's now? I applaud your progress! Remember that its not where you been, its where you are going.

And thank you for the kind words, and yes, I am a lousy golfer.

Observing - what is your husband's opinion of POJA?
Mulan