As a wife, how would I know if my husband's wandering eyes are a concern?

I believe we both made it to Withdrawal (state of mind), me being the last. Once I withdrew (felt like I was being taken for a fool and didn't want our conversations to continue going around in circles over our relationship and what we can do to improve it), he responded by being concerned enough about my silence to discuss and buy the home study course (which we will soon begin using together).

His response to sexual fulfillment (I started working on this before we ordered the course) has been positive, and quite immediate. But that's only sexual fulfillment. Even after this positive response, and while spending time with me out in public, I see no change in his wandering eyes.

It drives me crazy.

So I ordered a vehicle tracking device, a semen testing kit (I am convinced I saw an underwear stain that was not related to me) and next a voice recorder. I noticed a missed "restricted" telephone number on his cell phone (I don't have access to the billing as it's for business) during the same week of the underwear stain. This has caused sleepless nights, much confusion and mornings of "wondering".

Am I imagining things? I do have a very creative and imaginative mind, and don't want to jump to conclusions.

The confusion begins because he is already spending more and more time with me without knowing much about the home study course details (basic concepts). So it seems like his response is great and true – he seems to be gravitating toward me, which I can't imagine him doing if there was another woman. He even told me he loved me during sexual fulfillment – something I had not heard in a long time.

I feel like some things add up. Other things don't.

I'm miserably waiting for information using my new spy tools, which I feel perfectly comfortable using since I have the right to know if his wandering eyes have any negative impact on our marriage. That is, I need to know for sure if I am the only woman in our marriage.

He doesn't think I notice his wandering eyes – repeated glances at other women, especially if they are wearing promiscuous clothing and even when they are young (enough to be his daughters), even though I have mentioned on occasion (throughout our marriage) the pain it causes me. But to me it's obvious. Being married for many years, it is stab-my-heart noticeable for a wife.

We have a very happy family life and plenty of children who love their parents. So if my suspicions turn out to be right, it would be UNBELIEVABLE (but not surprising to me).

What to think?

Observing,

As a woman I can relate to the suspicions. Our instincts are fire alarms and very difficult to ignore.

JMHO, I say...do what makes you sleep better at night. If you are uncomfortable and have doubts, I don't see anything wrong with finding out if you're wrong or right. Surely, he may be offended for your snooping if he IS being faithful, but what if he isn't?

Personally, I would be able to live with myself more if I was accused of being suspicious and snoopy...rather than accused of being ignorant and naive. Catch my drift?

If I felt H was cheating, but did nothing to confirm or squash my suspicions, my mind would race constantly because I'm the type that can't let it go...I'm a DWELLER as I suspect you are, too.

But...I'm on expert. I'm only telling you what I would do. But from the advice I've seen here, there's a few lines that I've seen that could pertain to you:

a.) Act don't react--take control of what you CAN take control of. If you need peace of mind, then you take it. There's nothing wrong with it as long as you're not harming anyone. Law enforcement can arrest people based on Suspicion alone...why can't a wife spy a little based on suspicion?

b.) Post Post Post here...you will get a wide arrange of advice...and this place is a venting ground for us all. Keep coming here...It's helped me LOADS!

c.) Careful for the love busters. You don't want to ruin a marriage that could possibly be Affair-free. Just be cautious and concerned...watch him, OBSERVE, take notes, and report them here. There are so many here that can read between the lines and interpret many things. Don't be afraid to ask!

Finally, I wanna leave you with the peace of mind that you aren't alone. I'm sorry you're here based on the current circumstance, but you're in the right place.

Good luck in your journey. Take care.
Korlis

Korlis, I truly appreciate your quick response, something I needed today. It has given me a sense of relief and consolation in not being alone over this, plus some things to think about.

You have brought up a good point. Why hasn't he given me assurance that he loves only me when I mention his wandering eyes and how it hurts me? Instead, he adamantly denies it. That's the part I hate. He doesn't seem to want to change it and certainly doesn't try to make me feel any better if I bring it to his attention. A little assurance would go a long way.

Plus it's getting worse. We can't be in a parking lot, at a gas station, in a restaurant, at a store or even in an ice cream parlor without him positioning himself for yet another glance – at what does not belong to him. It's hard to keep smiling when you know you're not the only woman in view.

The one thing that concerns me the most is the blatant nature of it. He's being extremely insensitive...he KNOWS it bothers you, but does nothing to correct it, even a little bit?

My red flags went up on this one, too. BUT...there's still no proof that he has actually COMMITTED the dirty deed or in an EA with anyone else? If he's just looking then count yourself one of the luckiest women on this board because most of us are dealing with the actual act of infidelity. Don't go getting crazy until you have tangible evidence in your hands to back up your accusation.

Keep your chin up and your mind OPEN.

The sinking feeling is very known here...you're not alone.

Korlis

A lot has happened since my last post.

Not only has my husband admitted to "looking at other women" and "lying about it" for years, but also he has taken me on a romantic getaway in appreciation of my acceptance of his apology and as a way of starting over in our marriage relationship.

During all this, I was never reassured that I was the only woman in our marriage. I haven't asked for this reassurance, because I want it to come from his heart.

I'm somewhat confused about his reaction to my increased sexual desire for him…

I figured that with all the 21-year-old energy I've seen him put into looking at other women (and therefore concluded it was his most important emotional need), he'd easily redirect his sexual desire toward me once he could see that I was available ANYTIME, not just during my fewer infertile days as he seemed to prefer but which made me feel more like a sex object.

But he's losing sleep just thinking about it – and doing it. He keeps telling me we can't do more than 2 or 3 consecutive days of sexual fulfillment because it's too exhausting for him, yet he has always had better health than me. Then he tells me he has to adjust to all this.

Adjust to what? Could it be that he was caught off guard (discovered) and wasn't ready for relationship building, but knows he can't get out of it if he wants a better marriage?

What concerns me is that he has NEVER had a problem with erection, but now he does. And it has become so much of a deterrent to our sexual fulfillment these days and even with our romantic getaway which we were really looking forward to. He's says he's so excited about our days together, but repeatedly tries to limit them.

It doesn't make sense to me.

So I'm beginning to think there could be a "sexual performance anxiety" going on. Could this have been a problem for years and I just haven't known about it? Is that why he could look at other women all the time with plenty of energy, because it never required any "performance", but he avoids me because he has to be a "giver", not just a "taker"?

Sometimes I think that he is afraid of intimacy with me and that he likes me to be there for "release" only. I don't know if it's because he doesn't really love me or because he is anxious about performance especially when I'm obviously very interested in him. Is there anything that can help me understand?

I started out by trying to meet his emotional need, that is, sexual fulfillment. It has helped our relationship. Things have come out in the open. Even his wandering eyes have improved during the few times we have been in public together. But I don't know when is the best time to continue fulfilling this emotional need, because I'm not sure how much he wants it from me.

Obs

if he wants to spend more time with you thats great. It means of course there is less time for any A opportunities if any exist at all.
It would seem to be a good sign.

Perhaps what you sensed was his wandering eyes starting to seriously think of moving in the direction of an actual A?
At this time I feel you need to be simply alert and not let suspicions control you or your behaviour. Being alert and looking into his activities is ok just don't obsess on it. If something is telling you there is a problem there probably is, it just may not be an affair.

Baring any actual evidence, or clear A behaviour, you may have hit the reasons right on the head. He wasn't really ready for a more physical and intimate relationship with you. He'd settled into a comfortable relationship for him and perhaps didn't expect change. He may even feel threatened or pressured into performing.

As for the sex itself, sometimes men like women just don't want to despite what all is said about it. If you are clear in making known to him you are available ANYTIME perhaps you should just cuddle and hold each other without any other expectations and if anything does, wonderful!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'd suggest you be watchful but encourage him, without pressure, to be more intimate in various ways. Time will generally show whats been going on .... that or a guilty conscience. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

He needs to get checked for any physical limitations. You need to be more alert. Not at his roving eyes but be alert at your surroundings. He is looking? You should casually mention what looks nice to you. Is that cheating? It c/b or it c/b you letting him know what your preferences are. Maybe he doesn't know what you like or dislike and is bored or too lazy to find out.

Read His Needs/Her Needs, either separately or together.

I recommend you both read it, take the EN questionnaire and call Steve H @ MB for a proactive plan.

L.

Aussieswife and Orchid,

Thanks for your objective, helpful and insightful advice.

Okay, I will be more alert and look at my surroundings as to what's going on and I will make sure that he doesn't feel pressured into intimacy with me.


That's right. And I am hoping that it has only gone this far and that I have caught this in time to successfully work on our marriage.


Yes. And what really unnerves me was his recent revelation of his earlier thoughts of "separation" as a means of solving our marriage problems. What? You mean separation before we have even attempted to identify or solve our marriage problems? This clearly contradicted what he had said before we actually ordered the Marriage Builder's home study course: "it's sad our marriage has come to this" (need for counseling) and "I thought we had a great marriage".


Now that I think about it, yes, he had been looking. For example, one time (before his confession), it became obvious to me that he was looking and I nearly blurted out "Would you like to ask her out for dinner?", but I didn't. This was the "red flag" incident for me and still haunts me.


We have the MB course in our bedroom – tucked into the nightstand, waiting to be fingerprinted by him as much as it has been by me.

Obs:

I do not know the details of your M, I.E. Ages, length of M, kids, etc. This has a bearing on some of the answers that you might get, as well as make it easier to address some of the issues you have presented.

I am a FWS. I had an A. I also like to look at other attractive women. Unfortunately, I acted on this tendency. (ok, more than unfortunately!) However, HNHN states that if something is bothering your Spouse, you should use POJA to eliminate the hurtful behavior.

I notice things. If someone puts a chair on thier front porch, I will notice and file it away. Perfectly useless information. But, if something moves, I look. And if it happens to be a nice looking woman, I try to be discrete about it, but I look. My DW and I will now have discussions about men and women who walk by. It results in some interesting conversations, and not in the negative sense....

Now, if your husband "gawks" then that is very disrespectful to you. But, what has changed about you? An EN of your H may be that his spouse have Physical Attractiveness. This may be offensive to you, but it is a reality. You could be one degree from supermodel, and he would still look at other women. Its a guy thing. And women like to look too! But being disrespectful to you is something he needs to correct.

Also, you have the home study course. You have read it, and you are expecting him to read it now. I would suggest that you take it and listen to it in the car on your way to the romantic getaway your have planned. (If you haven't already gone!) Does your H like to read? He may not actually pick up the book, and this is something you cannot "force" on your H. That is why listening on the CD in the car works so well. You can pause the CD and discuss some of the items on it.

Lousygolfer,

I thank you for your kind interest and helpful thoughts.


First, to my consolation, my husband admitted that his habit of looking at women started in his teen years, long before we ever met. So I don't see it as a direct response to my attractiveness as a wife.

Secondly, since I, having had 5 beautiful children, turn more heads in my mid-40's than I ever did in my early-20's when we married, don't think attractiveness is a main issue. But I will still take it seriously if I find it toward the top of his Emotional Needs list.

I do like the idea of becoming more attractive though, so I have already begun working on it. I'm sure it will have a good effect on our whole marriage.

Even then, he's not one to tell me I'm beautiful or to make me feel beautiful, as he hardly did this in our earliest years, and he hardly does it now. Personally, I think he thinks it would go to my head, so he keeps his distance with appreciation and acknowledgement.

But just lately, during sexual fulfillment, he has been commenting that I am growing "younger", not older like him (stressed out from workaholic behavior in a family-owned business with a controlling father who still holds the puppet-strings and a fairy tale mother who sweeps everything under the rug, plus jealous in-laws who hate his wife), although he is only 3 years older than me.

He has often felt aged by his gray hair, but I think it makes him ravishingly handsome. I hardly have any gray hair, naturally. So when we were out on our romantic getaway, I got the feeling people misunderstood us as a newly wed couple of possibly two different generations.

One time, he didn't like our family portrait because he had gray hair and I didn't. He acted as though I wanted to show him up on purpose! So perhaps he's competitive. The way I understand it, love is not competitive.

Sometimes I think that this "looking" has something to do with what he thinks he's "missing out" on.

Observing:

Lets look in to this a little more:

Even then, he's not one to tell me I'm beautiful or to make me feel beautiful, as he hardly did this in our earliest years, and he hardly does it now. Personally, I think he thinks it would go to my head, so he keeps his distance with appreciation and acknowledgement.

He looks at other women, even to the point of being rude about it to you. But he never compliments you "because it will go to your head" You are upset with his behavior because he is not appreciating what he has by his side. This is very disrespectful behavior.

About this:
He has often felt aged by his gray hair, but I think it makes him ravishingly handsome.

Do you tell him that he is Handsome? Men are vain, but physical attactiveness appears to be stong EN for both of you. He isn't doing it to you, can you do more for him? Count how many times in the next week that you tell him how ggod looking he is (What if he isn't? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Different issue!) Compare it to how often you said it last week or last year. If you do it more for him, would he do it more for you? This was an issue in my M.

About this:
my husband admitted that his habit of looking at women started in his teen years, long before we ever met. So I don't see it as a direct response to my attractiveness as a wife. As I said earlier, looking is ok, and I been doing that since a teenager as well (I still think about my high school classmates in tight Levi's! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) But, if you have asked him not too, and he continues to do it, and even gets worse about it, then this is disrespectful to you.

After reading HNHN, I found out that when one partner in a M is upset about something else, they find something that irritates the other partner and then use it to make the other one uncomfortable. My spouse would comment on my inability to provide enough FS to her during arguements or even casual conversation. This was quite irritating to me. So I stopped providing appreciation to her, with horrible results (this is a serious contraction of our M, but it was a huge part). So, you would like your H to look at you like he looks at the other women. Show you that appreciation. But he doesn't, and then he knows it annoys you, and then he openly "gawks" at other women in your presence.

As for this:
Sometimes I think that this "looking" has something to do with what he thinks he's "missing out" on.

Smokescreen. You can be everthing he ever missed out on. That is what MB taught us.

I would like to comment on this, but I think it is secondary to the above issue:
(stressed out from workaholic behavior in a family-owned business with a controlling father who still holds the puppet-strings and a fairy tale mother who sweeps everything under the rug, plus jealous in-laws who hate his wife), although he is only 3 years older than me.

Lousygolfer,

You have some good points.


Absolutely.


Yes, especially when he comments about his gray hair. But I guess I could do it more often. I will try that. It could really help. I never really thought that he would like to hear that more often.

He IS a very handsome man and I feel very fortunate that way. It's just that he sits across the dinner table from me and hangs his head over the weight of his problems each day and I'm not one for daily pity-parties (pessimism). I wonder why he lets his controlling father continue to hang him from a puppet string (influence). Why can't he leave his father and mother and cling to his wife? Am I not worth it? On the other hand, I wonder how much he really pursues his own career success, making it a priority over his marriage.

That reminds me. Back in our first years, we would come home from church on Sunday (supposedly his day off for the week) and in about 10 minutes he would be out the door to check up on things at work. Gone. It made me feel awful. I felt like he just didn't want to be with me. But it turns out that he was trying to pull the family business out of near bankruptcy. He has played a huge part in the now profitability of the business. But who cares, if you lose your lover in the process?


I can see this happening with him more than me. He does tend to have grudge-holding and revenge characteristics. I have been more of the gullible type. For example, one time when he was belittling (his relatives put down people all the time) me in front of all our children at the dinner table (later years), I came back with a hearty question that exposed his hypocrisy. It silenced him. Then he said, "You're not as gullible as you used to be". He hasn't belittled me that way since!


Yes. And I find myself slightly desperate to have this happen by meeting his most important Emotional Needs. Perhaps he has felt the pressure. So I have backed off. I kindly asked him to let me know when he wants sexual fulfillment by touching me in a certain way. Otherwise, I will think that he is not ready yet and will wait for him.

Before that, and during a recent intimate conversation about our problem marriage, he accused me of not loving him. He said, that by having more and better sex, I was "trying to love" him. I then explained to him that I was only trying to overcome a Sexual Aversion that I had developed toward him over the years and that I feel I have accomplished so much in so little time and that if I didn't love him, I wouldn't have been there for him.

I explained, in rare tears, how desperate I have been for something as simple as affection from him. He took back (and followed up with a formal apology) what he said after I tossed and turned all night over feeling punished by him just for loving him even when I felt that he wasn't loving me. Again, I forgave him.

Not that I need to say this now, but since I'm unloading everything anyway...

This is the same man who after over 20 years of marriage had no interest in giving his wife a marriage bed of our own - even after wishful suggestions from his wife. Perhaps I had asked at a time when finances were not good. It turns out that I started my own online home business (with the money he paid me to continue living in town even though jealous in-laws hated me) and bought our beautiful bedroom set with my own money (I admit, I splurged since my business was very successful).

In times of need, I look to our beautiful marriage bed and how it went into our bedroom a couple years ago, before I even realized I had a Sexual Aversion to him. It tells me a lot about our marriage.

He often tells me how much he appreciates our marriage bed. It has had a great affect on our sex life because I feel comfortable in it, the colors and textures are pleasing and romantic to me and it gets me in the mood INSTANTLY.

Recently, but before we agreed to the Marriage Builder's course, I confided that I could use a bathroom added onto our bedroom. He couldn't find it in himself to agree to an addition onto the house - even if it gave us a better sex life. But I felt like an addition would be Good Compensation for all that the family-owned business has taken away from our marriage and that we could find a way to pay for a small addition onto the house using his business benefits. But no, he "can't" ask that of our in-laws or of the business or even insist on it with his Vice President status (not to mention he's the only one making money as I write) in the business. There again, I am at the expense.

And that's not to mention the property lines that were NOT drawn for our house (adding acres) but that WERE drawn for his in-law's houses before they sold their properties and left town. I told him that he could easily get me to like his business if I felt that our marriage could benefit from it financially in that way, since that's the reason he's supposedly clinging to it. Nothing doing (at least so far). The buck stops when it includes in-laws or business. These have become wedges in our marriage.


Wow. I look forward to that.

Observing:

When you really start answering questions on this web-site, we really start getting to the problems inthe M.

First:

Gone. It made me feel awful. I felt like he just didn't want to be with me. But it turns out that he was trying to pull the family business out of near bankruptcy. He has played a huge part in the now profitability of the business.

This is his families business? And he pulled it out of possible bankruptcy? Do you show appreciation for this? Did it cause all the gray hair? And allow you to have a nice home? (even if the property lines are crooked?) Allow you to raise your children in a safe place? Show that appreciation for this.

Now, in my situation, I worked alot as well. I thought I was providing for my family. My BS worked and did very well, I was not keeping up in her eyes, even with all the work I was doing. When we found MB, she was able to articulate to me tht she was interested in me being home more often. My being at work was depleting her LB. It took 15 years of M to articulate that. I go home more often now. I take days off to spend with her. One of your EN may be for his companionship. Review the EN questionaire.

I liked this:
It silenced him. Then he said, "You're not as gullible as you used to be". He hasn't belittled me that way since!
Be strong, especially in front of his family. Never let anyone put you down.

Reading this quote:
I find myself slightly desperate to have this happen by meeting his most important Emotional Need

You say that he has not read HNHN yet. How do you know that you are meeting his most important EN by having SF with him? For most men the SF EN is pretty high, but it might not be in your H case. One of the points of HNHN is that sometimes in trying to meet anothers EN's we try to meet the ones we think are important. Mine was Appreciation first, then SF (which was always good, even during my A, unusual I know) Recreational Companionship was next. Do you know what his EN's are? From him?

Also, you mentioned in an earlier post that you were providing more SF to him than he could handle. This is good, and SF needs change as we age, as stress increases, etc.

Now your EN was so direct with this:

how desperate I have been for something as simple as affection from him.

It might go to your head, as stated earlier, but wouldn't it be GREAT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would like to look into this with you:
(with the money he paid me to continue living in town even though jealous in-laws hated me)

This is a DJ:
I confided that I could use a bathroom added onto our bedroom. He couldn't find it in himself to agree to an addition onto the house - even if it gave us a better sex life. But I felt like an addition would be Good Compensation for all that the family-owned business has taken away from our marriage and that we could find a way to pay for a small addition onto the house using his business benefits. But no, he "can't" ask that of our in-laws or of the business or even insist on it with his Vice President status

It talks about your EN to have him home more, and to pull more benefits from his work for you. The POJA will allow you to get to a point of deciding what you want to do with your home. You bought your "Marriage Bed" with your own money? Can you pay for the improvements? With the money from your successful online business?

Here is another DJ, if not something that peeks into your EN's and boundaries:
The buck stops when it includes in-laws or business. These have become wedges in our marriage.

Family is important, but you have decide where your boundaries lay, and do not forget that you have benefited for many years from the wages earned by him in the family business. Unless, your H could have done so much better by not working in the family business. And that is a different issue.

Lousygolfer,

Yeah, I've been slacking on appreciation of his job. But in my heart, I never open the refrigerator without thanking the Lord for my husband's gift of food, clothing and shelter for our family. My husband also knows that I appreciate our country dwelling and our breathtaking view.

To show my appreciation of him, I have done what most wives don't get around to doing these days. I have greeted him at the door with a smile when arriving home from work. He once said at the door, "I count on your smile".

All my children learned from their mother to do the same. They absolutely adore him when he gets home from work - even to this day!

That's not at all how it was for my father. We kids got up and scattered out of the room when my father got home from work.

But have you ever paced the house, looking out the door, awaiting the moment with a smile and then find out that 30 minutes, 60 minutes or 90 minutes have passed and your husband is still not home and he never bothered to call and let you know that he was going to be late?

Well, take it from me, it's hard to keep the same smile on your face for that long, when dinner is getting scorched in the oven and kids are crying for food.

Now, I just keep myself busy. No sense in trying to fight it. I've even suggested a dinner time together, offering him the opportunity to go back to work for as long as he wanted, just so that we could have a cherished family dinner together.

For some reason, it can't work out that way. Because this problem came up and that problem came up and he was trying to leave but another problem came up...

How does that fit into the Policy of Joint Agreement?

I do admit, there have been some improvements lately.

Basically, I think he's been doing the job of 10 men. He has become a workaholic. Should a workaholic be given another drink?

Years ago, I mentioned to him that with all the stress he's taken onto his own shoulders, he's going to die at the age of 50 (he only has one year left) and leave me behind as a widow. He seemed to think that was funny and told me that at least I would have a good life insurance plan to draw from. I told him I didn't want life insurance. I wanted HIM!

Now he tells me he's fine as long as he doesn't have problems at home too. Just the other day, he said that if he were to have problems at home, he would have a "nervous breakdown".

Oh great! In other words, this wife cannot be a "squeaky wheel", especially when it comes to our relationship. Okay fine, let's sweep our relationship under the rug!

Through the years, I have suggested that he get an assistant to help him at work. He says he "can't" afford it.

Oh, yah? Maybe his sibling (President of the business) should NOT be losing up to $500,000.00 each year on foolish transactions (I have a copy of a financial report to prove it) and then they could pay for more help. Not only does my husband have to pull his own weight in the business, but he has to pull his sibling's weight AND his sibling's debt too.

This is extremely unfair. It got to this because no one was keeping track of expenses until the last few years. Long before the financial report surfaced (thanks to my husband), my husband would say that no matter how hard he worked he could never get ahead. No wonder.

So you can imagine how I feel when my husband patiently endures huge unethical financial losses but can't seem to "lose" a little money (bed, bathroom) for me.

It's not just money. When a wife sees the abuse of a girl about to happen by one of her husband's employees and tries to put in a good word to him to help prevent it, but he does nothing about it, you wonder what his values are.

Now, one of his main employees is in prison for raping a 14 girl on the business premises. I just had to sit back, be quiet and hear that it happened. How could I possibly be supportive of that?

Yes, all the relatives and in-laws are on his side of the family - except for one (my sibling), who pulled her husband out of the business and left town forever. Only 50% of his siblings who were working in the business are still left.

But the one's who are gone are still getting paid for having ownership in the business. My husband is currently the ONLY reason they are getting paychecks. But they don't know this.

If my husband quit his job, the cash flow would stop. He has considered quitting during the heat of relative/business problems. But then he tells me that he would disappoint SO MANY people. I wish he would put this same kind of energy and devotion into our marriage!

Hopefully there will be a change now that my husband has exposed the true financial status of the business. Already the losses are beginning to ease up, out of sheer shock and scrambling efforts.

And now that we are embarking on the Marriage Builder's course, my husband may be convinced that Just Compensation (bathroom) is in order once he gets his hands on some of his hard-earned money.

Surely the Policy of Joint Agreement could be of use here.

After all, I've been sinking 10's of 1,000.00's of my income into our growing kid's annual hobbies, traveling and education. I want to know if my husband loves me enough to do something financial for our romantic relationship.

At least I hear the property lines for our family are supposedly on their way. In my husband's own typical words, "I'll believe it when I see it".

Here's a little more into my husband's mindset using some of his own words (poor guy, he's not here to defend himself).

About 15 years ago, we were on a soul-searching International trip, when he admitted that he married for "selfish reasons". He confirmed that in my mind a couple years ago when he came home from a frustrated afternoon at work, pounded his fist on the dining table and said, "Serve me"! Well, normally he is a soft-spoken person and doesn't like to hurt anyone's feelings. So what's really in his head?

Both our parents are still married but have slave/master relationships. My husband and I have agreed that we want to do things differently.

As for working somewhere else, my husband has confided that he wouldn't want to be anyone's "slave" (employee). So he would need to have his own business. Besides, I would get queasy at trusting him (fidelity) outside of town in another business anyway (haven't told him that).

I have asked him to join me in business, but it never seems to sit well with him. I'm not sure if joining me would be perceived as a "leash" to him or his relatives or that he is unsure of his financial success outside his current occupation or that he wants to stick around and receive the financial rewards he sees coming after over 30 years of input to the family-owned business.

When I was first successful with my business, he and his relatives really struggled to adjust to it. The funny thing is that I was never interested in having my own business until he bought me a used computer and paid me to live in town.

Presently, I could financially live on my own (not that I intend to) or support our family if I had to. And that's scary, because it can lead to more independence. But now, when I buy something, my husband doesn't lean over my shoulder asking me where THIS $20.00 went and why did THAT $20.00 get spent. I cut my own hair just so that I don't have to hear about the bill. Interestingly, he now has 10's of 1,000.00's in the bank for retirement. It may have been put there in case things go awry with the family-owned business, forcing us to leave town so that he could cope.

Okay, I want to get back to appreciation...

After our romantic getaway, I planned to return to my practice of greeting him at the door. I asked the kids to let me know when they see his truck come up the driveway. They did and I ran out the door in an attempt to be seated on a bench waiting for him with a smile. It worked. He loved it. So I asked him if he could do something for me that I learned from the MB course book, that is, call his wife to let her know he is coming home. Perfect! Then we could finally meet each other's schedule. Why didn't we think of that before? He agreed that it was a good idea. BUT, he already seems to have forgotten.

I'm still waiting for a call.

TIMEOUT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Before I go any further, I would like to progress in the Marriage Builder's course so that my husband and I KNOW each other's Emotional Needs.

At this time, it's hard to answer more questions without first knowing these needs.

Plus the time and energy it takes for me to post, I would like to save some of that for my husband, who is noticing that I have things on my mind every time I post. He can read me like a book - one of his great talents!

We have a family vacation (he loves our few vacations together) starting this weekend plus some traveling after that, so I won't be getting much in answers until we can be home together, working on the course.

He has recently indicated that he doesn't want our relationship to go back (withdrawal). This is good news to me and I look forward to both of us fixing our relationship, once and for all.

Until then, I appreciate all the insight given to me by posters. God bless you!

Observing:

Sorry, no timeouts in MB Land.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will start at the top:

Yeah, I've been slacking on appreciation of his job. But in my heart, I never open the refrigerator without thanking the Lord for my husband's gift of food, clothing and shelter for our family. My husband also knows that I appreciate our country dwelling and our breathtaking view.

Don’t thank the Lord, (nobody knows but him, and you expect the Lord to provide the light to your Husband.) Just thank your Husband. In person, and in public. The rest gets easy.

To show my appreciation of him, I have done what most wives don't get around to doing these days. I have greeted him at the door with a smile when arriving home from work. He once said at the door, "I count on your smile".

So Do it Some more.
All my children learned from their mother to do the same. They absolutely adore him when he gets home from work - even to this day!

That's not at all how it was for my father. We kids got up and scattered out of the room when my father got home from work.

You can’t fix this, work on your M.

But have you ever paced the house, looking out the door, awaiting the moment with a smile and then find out that 30 minutes, 60 minutes or 90 minutes have passed and your husband is still not home and he never bothered to call and let you know that he was going to be late?

Well, take it from me, it's hard to keep the same smile on your face for that long, when dinner is getting scorched in the oven and kids are crying for food.

No, I was the one at work. And my DW was pacing the floor. I come home now. I a m Self-Employed, and subject to lots of problems at work. But, I go home now. And I keep my W in the loop.

Now, I just keep myself busy. No sense in trying to fight it. I've even suggested a dinner time together, offering him the opportunity to go back to work for as long as he wanted, just so that we could have a cherished family dinner together.

For some reason, it can't work out that way. Because this problem came up and that problem came up and he was trying to leave but another problem came up...

How does that fit into the Policy of Joint Agreement? You haven’t practiced it yet. One discussion does not equal POJA. And it certainly doesn’t change 15+ years of M.

I do admit, there have been some improvements lately.

Basically, I think he's been doing the job of 10 men. He has become a workaholic. Should a workaholic be given another drink?

Years ago, I mentioned to him that with all the stress he's taken onto his own shoulders, he's going to die at the age of 50 (he only has one year left) and leave me behind as a widow. He seemed to think that was funny and told me that at least I would have a good life insurance plan to draw from. I told him I didn't want life insurance. I wanted HIM!

Sounds like an EN!

Now he tells me he's fine as long as he doesn't have problems at home too. Just the other day, he said that if he were to have problems at home, he would have a "nervous breakdown".

Oh great! In other words, this wife cannot be a "squeaky wheel", especially when it comes to our relationship. Okay fine, let's sweep our relationship under the rug!

My Spouse had “problems” at work, and an awful home life that at its roots was my fault, according to her. It drove her to take AD’s and now that we have learned RH and POJA, she no longer takes the AD’s.

Through the years, I have suggested that he get an assistant to help him at work. He says he "can't" afford it.

Oh, yah? Maybe his sibling (President of the business) should NOT be losing up to $500,000.00 each year on foolish transactions (I have a copy of a financial report to prove it) and then they could pay for more help. Not only does my husband have to pull his own weight in the business, but he has to pull his sibling's weight AND his sibling's debt too.

That’s his job to hire someone, not your job to tell him him to do it, but to support him. Anyone can tell someone else what to do. (I know, I am doing it here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

This is extremely unfair. It got to this because no one was keeping track of expenses until the last few years. Long before the financial report surfaced (thanks to my husband), my husband would say that no matter how hard he worked he could never get ahead. No wonder.

I Am an Accountant, someone is always paying attention to the numbers, its their response to them that is important. I am glad to hear that your H has picked up the ball. Also, the Father will die and your H gets a piece, doesn’t he?

So you can imagine how I feel when my husband patiently endures huge unethical financial losses but can't seem to "lose" a little money (bed, bathroom) for me.

If the owners take the money, than that is their choice, but you seem to presume that your H should have earned it as wages?

It's not just money. When a wife sees the abuse of a girl about to happen by one of her husband's employees and tries to put in a good word to him to help prevent it, but he does nothing about it, you wonder what his values are.

Now, one of his main employees is in prison for raping a 14 girl on the business premises. I just had to sit back, be quiet and hear that it happened. How could I possibly be supportive of that?

You should have called the Police. Leave this one alone, you can’t help here at all. You didn’t know and you didn’t do the right thing, the rest is revisionism to make your self feel good.

Yes, all the relatives and in-laws are on his side of the family - except for one (my sibling), who pulled her husband out of the business and left town forever. Only 50% of his siblings who were working in the business are still left.

So what. Your husband is there, more for him.

But the one's who are gone are still getting paid for having ownership in the business. My husband is currently the ONLY reason they are getting paychecks. But they don't know this.

So what, You cannot determine ownership, only the owners can. And If your H is upset with those choices, then I think he should make some choices about that. (He should use POJA with you here)

If my husband quit his job, the cash flow would stop. He has considered quitting during the heat of relative/business problems. But then he tells me that he would disappoint SO MANY people. I wish he would put this same kind of energy and devotion into our marriage!

Believe me, NO ONE is irreplaceable in the workforce. As great as your H is, there is someone better. As great as the business that he runs is, there is a better one out there. If he leaves, the business will go on, to crash or burn, or maybe to thrive and flourish, We can only control our own destiny. Your desire to have him home is the reason for you to have him show you the same type of devotion.

Hopefully there will be a change now that my husband has exposed the true financial status of the business. Already the losses are beginning to ease up, out of sheer shock and scrambling efforts.

And now that we are embarking on the Marriage Builder's course, my husband may be convinced that Just Compensation (bathroom) is in order once he gets his hands on some of his hard-earned money.

Surely the Policy of Joint Agreement could be of use here.

Not with all the Disrespectful Judgements (DJ’s) displayed by these two paragraphs.

After all, I've been sinking 10's of 1,000.00's of my income into our growing kid's annual hobbies, traveling and education. I want to know if my husband loves me enough to do something financial for our romantic relationship.

So stop. YOU put the $ you earned into the things that you FELT were the most important, and then you project on to your H his failure to give you the other things that you wanted, but decided not to buy.

At least I hear the property lines for our family are supposedly on their way. In my husband's own typical words, "I'll believe it when I see it".

Here's a little more into my husband's mindset using some of his own words (poor guy, he's not here to defend himself).

Another example of you making sure you get yours….

About 15 years ago, we were on a soul-searching International trip, when he admitted that he married for "selfish reasons". He confirmed that in my mind a couple years ago when he came home from a frustrated afternoon at work, pounded his fist on the dining table and said, "Serve me"! Well, normally he is a soft-spoken person and doesn't like to hurt anyone's feelings. So what's really in his head?

My Spouse would bring up things from 15 years ago and project them on to what I am now. I am no longer that person, or doing those things. Accept you H for what he is now and trying to do now. These are DJ’s again.

Both our parents are still married but have slave/master relationships. My husband and I have agreed that we want to do things differently.

They were born thirty years before you, different time, different circumstances. The agreement is nice, but do you feel you are in a S/M relationship?

As for working somewhere else, my husband has confided that he wouldn't want to be anyone's "slave" (employee). So he would need to have his own business. Besides, I would get queasy at trusting him (fidelity) outside of town in another business anyway (haven't told him that).

Earlier, you described his working relationship as a VP as similar to this slavery you describe here. But he is close to the top here, everywhere else would be a step down, admire his the job that he has. And make no presumptions that he would get into an A if he went to another town. He doesn’t have to leave town to have an A. I am proof of this…. And my town is probably smaller than yours...

I have asked him to join me in business, but it never seems to sit well with him. I'm not sure if joining me would be perceived as a "leash" to him or his relatives or that he is unsure of his financial success outside his current occupation or that he wants to stick around and receive the financial rewards he sees coming after over 30 years of input to the family-owned business.

When I was first successful with my business, he and his relatives really struggled to adjust to it. The funny thing is that I was never interested in having my own business until he bought me a used computer and paid me to live in town.

So what, that is your in-laws adjustment. “Paid me to live in town” What’s up with that?

Presently, I could financially live on my own (not that I intend to) or support our family if I had to. And that's scary, because it can lead to more independence. But now, when I buy something, my husband doesn't lean over my shoulder asking me where THIS $20.00 went and why did THAT $20.00 get spent. I cut my own hair just so that I don't have to hear about the bill. Interestingly, he now has 10's of 1,000.00's in the bank for retirement. It may have been put there in case things go awry with the family-owned business, forcing us to leave town so that he could cope.

Some more for you! I recommend that my clients put as much $ as possible in retirement accounts…

Okay, I want to get back to appreciation...

After our romantic getaway, I planned to return to my practice of greeting him at the door. I asked the kids to let me know when they see his truck come up the driveway. They did and I ran out the door in an attempt to be seated on a bench waiting for him with a smile. It worked. He loved it. So I asked him if he could do something for me that I learned from the MB course book, that is, call his wife to let her know he is coming home. Perfect! Then we could finally meet each other's schedule. Why didn't we think of that before? He agreed that it was a good idea. BUT, he already seems to have forgotten.

I'm still waiting for a call.

No, he didn’t forget, you didn’t put in the effort. Get out there on the bench, but tell him you would have had a Soda, beer, cocktail, whatever, waiting for him, if he had called first…

Observing: Lots of 2x4’s I am hitting you with here. But the best part about MB and this website, is that it allows you to get advice and support that you can take or leave as you see fit. Take what I am saying as help to see your EN’s more clearly, and your desire to meet your H’s EN’s.

Lousygolfer,


My husband doesn't work on MB time. He works on his own time.

I respect that. And I would want him to do that for me.

So I don't have much information on Emotional Needs yet. We're still working on Assignment #1 in the MB course – but that's a huge step forward.

In the meantime, he is responding very positively to (Plan A and) the MB course that we have begun together. He has even confided that he has a lot more to work on - than I do. That's because he knows our relationship has been very one-sided through the years.

Except that he stood me up today by being absent for our first Saturday get-together (part of our 15 hours a week). He didn't appear to be feeling very affectionate or conversational.

Yesterday, during his chronic pessimism that eventually follows travel (doesn't matter which one of us is doing the traveling), he decided that I wasn't happy, even though I was very happy, I was smiling and everyone else present (about a dozen people) knew I was happy.

I can see this PESSIMISM is going to be a core problem in our recovery from Withdrawal. Every time we make progress on our relationship, he turns around and judges my happiness again. He thinks he KNOWS what I think at all times. The problem is, for a pessimistic person, the judgment is usually negative. But people know me as a positive person.

Well, misery loves company. But I'm not miserable. So I guess I don't make good company!

Needless to say, I was completely turned off from Sexual Fulfillment last night (he didn't bother to initiate the good-night kiss, so I did) since he DECIDED "what I was feeling" for the day, even after an initially wonderful reunion (travel), and had gone into his "BAD WEATHER MOODS".

No need to verify anything about how I feel, just negatively say, "What's on your mind?" or "What did I do wrong?" One time, I mentioned to him that he is asking me to examine his conscience for him. I don't want to do that. That's his job.

Today, when he asked me why I didn't remind him of our agreement to visit, I kindly reminded him that I am not his mother. He already knows that I don't beg anymore.

So what should happen tonight? He knows I feel sexy after a bath. But there has been hardly any affection today and I was stood up for conversation as well. But he gets passionate Sexual Fulfillment as soon as I go to bed – if he so desires!

If you haven't guessed, I am here to VENT.


Am I supposed to bring a beer bottle in the bedroom for Sexual Fulfillment too? If I'm not enough for him, whether it's a friendly greeting when he comes home from work or Sexual Fulfillment in the bedroom, then maybe he should have married a beer bottle!

Before I come back with information on our Emotional Needs lists, I wanted to comment on my last post, plus ask a question.

Comment:

It happened again.

I'm beginning to see a pattern in my husband's behavior. He's back to work. Our getaway, vacation and travel are over. He has become like his father again, that is, "since I am miserable, I want you to be miserable too".

Let me explain.

He did get Sexual Fulfillment the other night (Saturday), just like he wanted (he initiated). In fact, I gave myself so joyfully and completely to him that he said, "Never in all my life..."

He also deposited a carload of Love Units in my Love Bank by telling me everything I ever wanted to hear about how he feels about me (we had been apart for a few days for travel reasons).

But before we began, I gently and repeatedly asked him WHY he decided I was unhappy on Friday, when I was happy that day. He admitted that he ASSUMED I was unhappy with him because he had accidentally insulted a good friend (with status) of mine at the dinner we attended.

I explained to him that it did not make me unhappy because I know how easy it is to say the wrong thing in public and that God quickly gave me the right words to bail him out (of the hole he dug himself into), so dignity had been restored immediately for my friend, with cheerfulness and a good sense of humor. I was so pleased it had worked out for the better.

He said he was sorry for judging me unfairly on Friday and for not being there for the meeting we had set aside for Saturday.

But what happens the next day, on Sunday? He does it again.

He ASSUMES I am unhappy for another reason.

Coincidently (or maybe not), it happened right before our time together (part of our 15 hours a week) that we had agreed on and set aside. As a result, we couldn't seem to get the words out right during our meeting/conversation, so we stopped for dinner.

Things didn't get any better during dinner since one of the older kids (who tends to side with him) picked up on his theme and joined in by unfairly criticizing me at the table. So after dinner I quietly slipped into the bathroom for a long private bath instead of returning to the bedroom for our meeting.

I didn't want to start in on Love Busters!

Even though I am the kind of person who likes to work things out right away and not sleep on it (allowing it to fester), my reasoning was, "I was happy all day today, and now I'm being tempted to lose that happiness for no valid reason, so I am going to do happy things and not let him get me down".

Here is my question(s):

What does a wife do to keep a relationship with her husband positive, when his tendency is to be negative about it, even during a healthy Plan A?

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Why does he spend so much time "pointing a finger in my face" and telling me what's wrong with my happiness? Why can't he just look in the mirror and see where the scowl is coming from?

His ATTITUDE is very wearing on me and has the potential of putting us right back to where we came from before I found this website.

Do you think my husband needs additional (personal) counseling for something other than marriage problems?

Could he have a deep-rooted self-esteem or envy problem that is unrelated to our marriage but shows up in his daily communication?

Or is this normal for people coming out of Withdrawal?

I feel like I am on a perpetual rollercoaster. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Observing:

Welcome back!

One of the things about MB Land is you do get to vent. AND when you vent, people respond in ways you never expected, and can even lead you to answers you didn't expect, or even ask.

Ok, your last post was a vent. You had worked with yout H regarding MB, and set up some time, and he seemed to be responding well. Then he came home, made several assumptions, and blew you off.

Very good reason to vent. And then later you still had SF with him? Could not tell from your posting if you did or not. I will assume you did not.

I notice in your posting that you mention Plan A and Withdrawal. These are reserved for marriages where an Affair has occured, or suspected. In your earlier posts, you refer to him having the tendency to possibly stray, but do not say that he has. Plan A would be needed to meet his EN, and to draw him closer to you and get him away from the OW. Withdrawal is the process of extracting oneself from the FOG-like trance that consumes WS.

Some of his behaviors would seem to indicate that he could be having an A. After returning from travel, he is irritated and withdrawn. He knows that he is to meet with you on Saturday and he constructs issues to delay the meeting. Could be A like behaviors (Just a thought, please share yours.)

His pessimism is a form of Disrespectful Judgements (DJ). He presumes you are feeling a particular way and then acts accordingly.

Marriage Builders is a process of changing behaviors and habits so that you can have a stronger Marriage. EN's are discovered, analyzed and then the behaviors and habits that hurt the other spouse are reduced through thoughtful discussion and honesty on the part of the M partners without LB.

Your H is in the Habit of assuming what your attitude is. Using non-threatening statments like "I feel" or "I respond like this to" can help reduce this habit. But these habits are ingrained in our physche. It takes awhile to adddress.

Here is an example here:


The Policy of Radical Honesty can be used here. "What's on your mind" can become a stepping stone to a long conversation if you respond in a better manner. What was on your mind? You would have told me wouldn't you? If I had asked? No history between us. No "you should know already" between us. So respond in a similar manner to your H.



This was severly judgemental of you, IMO. You need to start changing these behaviors in both of you. He should have remembered that you were meeting. That is his job. And you are not his mother. But you do want a better M, don't you? If you had said, "I was hoping that you would remember because it was important to both of us, but with all the other things going on, it may have slipped from your memory, and this being the first time, lets get started now, (or at 6 pm, 8pm whatever) Then have the meeting. And schedule it for next week. And be sure to remind him. It's important to you, and will become more important to him as the habits and behaviors start to change. Because from your response, you may not even have another meeting planned, do you?

So, your day was ruined by him, and then you expect that you were going to have SF "if he so desires" with him that evening after he stepped all over your feelings. You do not have to SF with him just because he desires it. You both have the right to want to have it. You could make him talk to you for a while first. Maybe not address what is in Assignment #1, but maybe what else happened that day. You have had a bath, you are feeling sexy, he knows it, let him salivate a bit and talk with you. And you have to be non-judgemental during this conversation. Does not mean you cannot respond to a verbal attack, but you can hold your own guns, to aviod a bad scene.

As for my quote about the bench, I think you missed the point. There are little cat and mouse or carrot and stick behaviors that can spice up any M and can also allow one to fix the bad habits in a M. You had stated that he was happy to see you waiting for him on the bench. But he didn't call. So, tell him what he gets if he does call. You will be on the bench, but you have to know when he is coming. The drink (and you!) are the reward.

and I will end with this quote:



That is why you came here wasn't it? His wandering eyes? You want him to fulfill your EN, and you need to address his. But you can become enough for him. Strangely, I became all my BS needed, and she bacame mine, once we started changing our behaviors into more positive ones. My wife wouldn't offer me a beer for many years. "get it yourself" she was thinking. Now, she wants to get me one, and I offer her one, or a glass of wine, her real preference. We changed our behaviors. Took time. Took yelling. Actually, it just took the time to get to know one another better using the techniques on this website, and in the books. You two still haven't got to step one. Wait till you get to Assignment #6 or 7, and then reflect on how far you have come.

Hope to hear from you soon. It seems like during the time between posts you actually did make progress. Remember, it is a marathon, not a sprint.

Observing:

Did you notice that our posts crossed?

My post tried to post at the same time as yours. Quite a difference your next post makes.


So, after an awful Friday and Saturday daytime, you had a particular good evening. Conversation, discussing an issue important with you, and then SF that took his breath away. Good! Good!

Yet the next time:



Punishment. Before Conviction. It is inappropriate for your child to critize you, and if he was following the lead of you H, doubly so. Both have to answer for that. Have that conversation with your older kid tommorrow. So, you didn't LB, very good. But you avoided what you had scheduled with your H. That is punishment. And if your H wanted to aviod it, he got what he wanted. So he wins on all counts. Bad for you. He is tring to avoid these meetings, hold his feet to the fire. And do not forget, if you succed in getting him to talk about other things, then it is easier to talk about the assignments. And you can introduce parts of the assignments without his knowledge by studying ahead.

Is your H Negative? Could be. Does he have a long time of doing these bad habits and behaviors? Yes. Will he change overnight? Not without a lobotomy. Can he change over the next three months? Yes. Six months? Much more likely.

Now, in my sitch, I changed overnight. Not completly, but Dday was my frontal lobotomy. I like to think that I have gotten better. Do I backslide? yes, and my W tells me about it. But she doesn't have to LB to get me there.



1. Tell him the disrespectful things that he does, one at a time, and preferably when he does them, in a calm voice, and ask him not to do them anymore. "pointing his finger in your face" for example.

2. Tell him how you are feeling so that he doesn't assume. Do not assume on your part how he thinks you are feeling. Tell him.

3. Tell him how great Saturday night was and how it reminds you of how he acted when you were courting. I.E.: Talk, more talk, even more talk, and finally SF. And especially about the positive comments during and after.

4. Call him at work and leave a positive voice message, about how you were thinking about him and justed wanted to tell him about it. (emails and text messages work well, too.)

5. When he is being negative, use some of the reverse babble arguments (Search for ORCHID posts) here on this site and try to minimize their effect. Very appropriate if he has been involved with an Affair, but has ability to help change thinking by reflecting what has been said to you back to the speaker.

6. Understand that no one can change overnight, celebrate with him the small successes you see.

7. Repeat #6

8. Repeat #6

9. Repeat #6

10. Work on yourself to become more of the woman you would like to be. Then, no matter what he does, you are still a better person.

As for your last couple of questions, we need more info before I can get into them.

Enjoying this conversation with you.

Lousygolfer,

It's great to be back (for now anyway). And thank you for the excellent advice!

I plan to look it over again when I have more time and reflect on the different points you have made. Plus I want to look into the Reverse Babble stuff.


In my posts, I have been referring to Withdrawal as a "state of mind" (Intimacy, Conflict, Withdrawal) as described on the MB website.

Also, I have been looking at Plan A as a healthy way to improve myself and our marriage for as long as I am unsure of whether or not there is a Physical Affair going on.


Would you believe the child was a "she"?


Oops. I blew it on that one. And I know better. I learned about "I feel…" lines in a communications class at a University before I got married. It's just that I find myself giving in to his style of communication too often.

Using good communication is how I got his confession (looking at other women and lying about it for years) out of him. I do wonder if I made it too easy for him when I did it though, since after he broke the silence, I gave him an example of what I meant that may have set him free of admitting to the possibility of a Physical Affair. But I knew I could not accuse him of something that might not exist.

With my heart visibly beating through my chest as we lounged on the bed and while discussing our marital problems, I said to him, "I feel like I am not the only woman in our marriage". This was perfect because it was not an accusation but it opened up the "can of worms". I looked him in the eye when I said it and he looked me in the eye in response with what I understand to be his "adultery frown" (certain frown he makes as soon as he realizes that I know he's been looking at other women).

I searched his eyes for ANY possible indication of guilt he could give me and he looked into my eyes for ANY possible indication of what I could know about him. We stared at each other for what seemed like an eternity. There was silence. And more silence. And even more silence. Then he looked away and said, "I can't believe you're saying that".

You've got to be kidding. Is that all he could say? That was nothing like what I wanted to hear. I wanted to hear something like this, "Honey, I love you. You are my wife and I am faithful to you. Even though I find myself looking at other women, it's not because I want them, it's only because men find women attractive. I'm sorry to have hurt you by doing that and I'll do my best to change it. What is it that makes you feel there is another woman? Do you mean an Affair?"

After he broke the silence, I gave him an example (explained the wandering eyes stuff) of why I felt that way. He denied it by saying that he doesn't look at other women. I looked at him and firmly said, "You're lying to me. You can't build a relationship on lies."

Somewhere during our exchange of words, I also said, "If I'm not the only woman, what makes you think I want to have sex?"

There was more silence – almost an entire hour! I didn't leave the room because I wanted him to make the first move or be the one to break the silence. I was looking for clues, anything at all. Finally it was time to put our youngest son to bed and I was scheduled to get on an airplane for a trip early the next morning.

It was almost 24 grueling hours later that he emailed me with his confession (looking at other women and lying about it). I cried so hard that night before I went to bed out of pure RELIEF that not only he admitted to what has hurt me deeply for years but also over the possibility that this problem could be only "just looking" and not a Physical Affair.

But in the back of my mind, it did occur to me that a confession of this type could be an easy way out. In other words, if he thinks that I don't suspect a Physical Affair and he makes a confession for "just looking" but he's doing more than that, then he could think he is off the hook.

So I still have him tracked, tested and other things (being alert). Granted, it feels awkward to make love with him the night before I track him, he has given me reason to not trust him. If he had not lied the first time I brought up this issue years ago, I wouldn't be feeling the need to get more answers today.

Plus I keep reading that it's not adultery that ruins a marriage, it's the lying.


I let him know how I feel all the time. But now that he's reading how I feel in Dr. Willard Harley's books, I think he'll begin to take it seriously.


Today was a breakthrough.

Even though last night my husband passed judgment again while we prepared for our 1-hour Monday Undivided Attention time, we managed to read chapters in the MB course books. There wasn't much conversation but it was better than being negative with each other.

Since (my version of) Plan A started, he has been emailing me (and I email him) from time to time after he gets to work. But this morning there was no email. Instead, he called me (to my delight).

He used the words I have often used when I would call him, "I just called…to say…I love you". So I burst out laughing, not only to hold back swelling tears but also because it made me happy (and relieved). My 10 year old son came running down the hall and into the bedroom to ask me what was so "funny"! My husband (on the other end of the phone) and I were still laughing – hard.

At first, we found it difficult to carry conversation, but after warming up with small talk, it turned into a 45 minute phone call (he was supervising on the job).

This phone call was MAJOR for me and made me feel like living again (good thing he RE-READ the chapter on Affection last night). You see, in all our 23 years, he would never call (except on my birthday, anniversary) unless he was going to let me know that he was going to be GONE for lunch. I grew to despise those phone calls since they had come minutes before he was expected for lunch – they were always last minute, never to say "I love you", and always to give me BAD news. Plus he made me feel like he had to get off the phone (there were more important things to be doing).

When he would travel with his sibling for business, he used to tell me that he couldn't call me while he was gone. That he had no private time to call (his wife). If that didn't make me feel completely worthless, I don't know what did.

Foolishly, I pleaded and begged for calls. But it didn't work, UNTIL I began to travel with the kids. Then WE would call home every night. He began to see the value in making a simple phone call to your loved ones. So lately when he travels (less than I do now), he takes the time to call us.

So, yes, I think we are making PROGRESS.

About feeling like living again…

Here's a story that I haven't told my husband yet, but I plan to do so during the course IF he comes clean with me (like he's supposed to). If he's going to get everything from my heart, then he has to share his heart too.

One time, a very handsome, intelligent and supposedly Christian married man approached me and wanted to go out for dinner with me and my older son (the reason I was traveling). I told my son, who called to warn me in advance, that I couldn't go out to dinner (with them). My silent reasoning was that I didn't want to start any relationships with other men, no matter how innocent. I just wanted my son to continue with his hobby/education and I would pick him up when necessary. But this gentleman PERSISTED with pleading warmth, smiling kindness and a touch of sensuality. I had to turn him down cold in front of my son, who couldn't understand why I was so adamant about not going to dinner.

Being frazzled that the situation had even occurred in the first place, I couldn't come up with the words to explain to my son that his Dad wouldn't like that, and that this man should be going out to dinner with his own wife, not with me.

But when we got home, my husband said "You should have gone (to dinner with him)". I was furious inside! What was he trying to say? If I did that, he would be insanely jealous! He also made me look foolish in front of my son who I was trying to give a good example to.

Getting back to the story, it turned out that the next day I couldn't avoid another occurrence with this gentleman since I was assigned to be the driver for both of them (him and my son).

The following days I wondered why those occurrences were bothering me. What was going on? Why was I having these feelings? Why couldn't I think about something else? After all, I wasn't interested in any relationship but the one I already had. So what was the problem?

Being the "thinker" that I am, I concluded that I was sensitive to this man's kindness because it was LACKING in my marriage. That was the week I realized my marriage was in trouble. I kissed my wedding ring, came home and kissed my husband warmly (which he keenly noticed and commented about later) and then bought (with my money) an entire bedroom set (romantic environment) to make sure that I felt better about our sexual relationship.

I didn't want my husband's needs to be unmet simply because mine were being unmet. If it was that easy for me to be affected by another man being the faithful wife that I am, how could it be for my husband who had a wife with a Sexual Aversion toward him?

I knew that I needed a better environment to communicate with him – in the way he understands, that is PHYSICALLY. I decided that if he communicates physically (sex), then that's how we were going to communicate! That's when our sex life began to really improve.

When my husband asked about the changes, I told him that I just wanted to "do something for our marriage". He turned over and looked at me with a surprised look on his face as though he was thinking, "Is there a problem with our marriage?"

But the AFFECTION element was still MISSING. So a couple years later, after things were getting worse (avoiding each other during the day), here we are taking the MB marriage course.

Why am I telling this story? Because this experience in my life showed me that I was "something special". It reminded me that if anything ever happened to my husband, there was the possibility of being appreciated by another man. That I was and could become more of the woman I am.

This was liberating for me. It helped me to break away from the negative impressions about myself that my husband had hurled onto me, through his own self doubts.

Thank you for listening...

Observing:

Interesting series of posts, huh?



1. He couldn't see your heart beating. You know it was, and you wished he could have seen the gravity of the situation and the question. But he didn't.

2. He didn't answer your question. "I can't believe you are saying that" is not an answer. My wife asked me about 1 year before d-day, not the same type of circumstances as yours, we were in the dark, and not looking at each other, and I just flat out lied. I said no, I am not having an Affair. Your H didn't say no, and he didn't say yes. If he wasn't having one, and he never had one, I think his resposne would have been in a manner that was beliveable. (Most experts, on this site, etc., state that if you think you spouse is having an A, they probably are). If he had had one, then a flat out denial would have been issued. (BT,DT as described) But it is a denial that doesn't seem sincere.

3. If he had an A, that doesn't change things right now in your M. Think about that. If he was to tell you that 5 years ago he had a six month fling, what is your response to that? Be prepared. You are making progress. And if you really start making progress, some day he might come clean, or you might come into possession of information proving an A happened. How are you prepared for this eventuality? If it ever comes?

4. If he is currently in an A, then we have a more difficult row to hoe. You checking on things is important for you. It will catch the WS eventually. But, you need to have more concrete proof than the fact that he likes to look at other women.

5. No matter which one he is in, #3 or #4, you are executing the things needed to win your H heart. That is Plan A. Start meeting his EN's. And through that process, you can start showing him what your EN's are and guiding him into meeting them. He does not need to know why you are doing it, Just do it. Because depending on #3, or #4, when the real bombshell comes, if it exists, meeting EN's makes the road to recovery alot easier.

So your quote:


If you only are going to do these things because you are "unsure of a PA" then you will lose the marriage anyway. Plan A is for the BS to get better, make the WS realize how great the BS is, and if the WS continues to stray, the BS is free to get rid of the WS because they are a better person. If Plan A is 100% BS working the WS, then even when there is no WS, the other spouse can use the techniques of Plan A to become a better spouse. And a non-WS spouse should respond quickly, like yours appears to have done. Not as quick as you would like, but you have been in this M for a long time, habits and behaviors are hard to break. Your 45 minute phone call? That is a good habit to start. And not every call will be 45 minutes. Celebrate and thank him for calling, even if it is for 10 minutes. It is AFFECTION for you, and APPRECIATION for him.

Now, your conversation in bed, even with all the silence, was still a good thing. Compare it to what might have happened in the past. Storming out of the room, Yelling, DJ's, LB's or even the dreaded silent treatment for DAYS. Is there light in this tunnel?

So, you explained your concern about his wnadering eyes and he said:


That was wrong. He is lying. That's true. But the lies you are accusing him of are not the ones you want to draw a line in the sand over. What do I mean by this? He looks at other women. Men do this, as I explained in an earlier post. Women do too! However, He disrespects you by looking at other women in your presence, and sometimes to an extent that is embarrassing. That is when you point it out to him. Tell him that is what I mean by your wandering eyes. That is what is supposed to stop. If he glances at someone else, and is discreet, he is doing what humans have been doing for millions of years. You want the attention on you. You want to know that no matter what, you are the most beautiful woman in the room. So. You have explained to him how you feel about how he looks at other women in your presense. Point out when he makes it uncomfortable for you when he does it. THen next time, you can ask him "what do you find attractive about that woman?" This could lead to conversation. You could comment on the nice dress, (not in a judgemental manner! in a conversational manner!) and he might respond that he likes her haircut. (He might like her Butt, but let him talk!) It points out that he was being inappropriate. But, by turning it into a conversation, you also get CONVERSATION with your spouse. And if he does look inappropriately in the future, it leads to a pleasant conversation with you, and he becomes more discreet. (Breaking bad habits again and replacing them with good ones) (As an aside, you could ask him about the other womans DATE? Do you think he is CUTE?)

So, if he is lying to you about having an Affair, then that is the lie you want to expose. Him looking at women and denying it, can be construed as a small lie in the great scheme of things. Especially in light of the above. Change the behavior, and the reality of it will become clear.

I would like to look at this a bit:



So, he is off the hook the next time you have sex, right? Watch the ultimatiums. Because, you can go back to having SF with him, and even knock his socks off with it. But, he did email you the next day, validating your wandering eyes concerns, so it did have some effect. You can start building on that. And, he should have comforted you, and expressed something. He might be hiding something. It will come out. See the above info. THe first confession are the steps on the road to getting full confessions. It may take a while, and you may have to work patiently, but they will come. As you become a more complete W for him, then it makes it easier to honest with you.

Now I will tackle your second post:

You now realize how close an inappopriate encounter could have been. You realized the degrading of your M and took a number of steps to address this degradation. You improved the SF environment, and the SF. And then things went downhill again.

This is like the biblical guy pushing the rock up the hill to have it roll down the other side. You have pushed the rock up the hill, several times. Your H hasn't helped, but has enjoyed watching your labor. You need him to help you push the rock. That is the AFFECTION you seek. Phone calls, emails, listening, all help you push the rock. Eventually, your H will respond by making the point of the hill flater and the rock will not roll down again. Then, you can sit there, with your H, and enjoy the view. I think I have gotten to this place with my spouse. Sometimes a wind blows and the rock rolls down, but I am there to help her push. I even take the lead now, sometimes.

The most telling line of your story:



You were good, and he said you should have gone! You knew inside that the dinner was a start down a slippery hill. That man was meeting your EN's. H hadn't been. Dinner could have occurred and then something else could have. (Losing the kid would have been easy, I know from experience) Your H was not aware of all the other things swirling around. He thought you were safe, you were with your son. This man was asking YOU to dinner, not others in the group. You KNEW this. He wanted you. And you resisted, and your H has no knowledge of this battle that you fought. You just see him as surrendering you to the other side. HOW dare he.

I think that this story you related can be an excellent conversation as you get about halfway through the assignments that Harley has for you.

DO you see how many things that story touches on? You wanted him to be insanely jealous, but he wasn't. He was giving you up.

Another man was meeting your EN's, what is wrong with H? Why can't he? He's learning more about them now...

He trusted you implicitly. And you didn't and still do not trust him. (with some good reasons)

You are attractive, and others find you that way.

Let me know how it goes.

Lousygolfer,

Awesome post! I have a lot to think about.

Things are happening fast. So I wanted to comment on your last post before I post any updates of our progress (in the order that it occurred).


Yes, and I can't believe I am revealing my marital problems on this forum.

But I just came to the point in my marriage where something had to be done. I needed to communicate at a time when my husband didn't seem to be receptive. I had no where else to turn.

Needless to say, I truly appreciate your interest, good advice and points for me to think about.


Yeah, like when he bumped a women in the head with a chair leg while adjusting seats in a restaurant after gawking too much!


He hates it when I bring it up.


This I might try! I can see the advantage of getting conversation going, which would also point out that he is being inappropriate and then work on it without LB.


That doesn't make it right.

What if we applied this reasoning to a Physical Affair? Does that mean the Physical Affair wouldn't exist anymore just because it is now discreet? Isn't being "discreet" an ENABLING feature?

I don't want him to become discreet. If he becomes more discreet (as he is now doing), but doesn't change the habit (I think he's trying), then I would feel like he's HIDING something from me and living a relationship with LIMITED honesty. What wife wants that?

Instead, I want him to stop "zooming in on flesh", because he's doing it for the WRONG reasons: "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." -Matthew 5:27-28

What's the difference between Heart Adultery and Emotional Adultery? Not much. I think most spouses here know the VERY REAL danger of Emotional Adultery. What does EVERY Emotional Affair lead to?

You get the point…

I do wonder how husbands would feel if their wives spent as much time TALKING to other men as they spend LOOKING at other women!


FUN idea! I actually might try it. But wouldn't this give him a "ticket" to keep looking?

Progress?

It appears that my 2 1/2 month version of Plan A, along with Dr. Willard Harley's books, is now taking effect.

Here's what's happening. My husband placed a vase of wild flowers in our bedroom recently and continues to change the flowers. He is contacting me regularly via email, text messages or phone calls. He no longer has an erection problem (seemed psychological). He now initiates Sexual Fulfillment frequently (more like what I expected). And SUDDENLY, he decided that we need a bathroom added onto our bedroom for privacy, cheerfully said that we have the money, and then called a local builder on his cell phone during our Undivided Attention time one evening. He said that he is looking forward to our bedroom addition, which now includes a fireplace (his idea), as much as he did our romantic getaway. And that's not to mention his latest words after Sexual Fulfillment, "I'm so in love with you".

Maybe I should take his temperature.

Uh oh…did he see this posting?

Now I'm confused. Is there a bombshell coming?

Okay, I'm going to continue Plan A, the MB course, avoid LB and proceed cautiously.

For the record, here's what I did. Since I didn't have his Emotional Needs list yet, I had to come up with my own list for him based on his TRACK RECORD of PREDICTABLE BEHAVIOR. So I took his wandering eyes problem and matched it with Emotional Needs. Here is the list I came up with (which I assure you he will DENY is true):

1. Sexual Fulfillment (needs sex)
2. Physical Attractiveness (looks for women)
3. Admiration (needs to feel like a man)
4. Recreational Companionship (enjoys the company)

Doesn't that make sense?

Well, Plan A for this type of EN list appears to be working.

Finally!

An Emotional Need came in.

But I am struggling with it a little.

Now that my husband has revealed his #1 Emotional Need during a deep conversation (but before we have filled out the official forms), I wanted to VENT how I feel about it.

I feel two ways:

1. I feel so pleased that he has, what I consider, such an honorable #1 Emotional Need: Honesty and Openness

2. On the other hand, I am FURIOUS that he would choose "honesty" for himself, when he had been so hypocritical and lied to me for 23 years!

How should I go about handling this – with no Love Buster's - once it gets onto the official form?

I don't want him to feel like he doesn't know himself, by telling him how I feel about his choice, which I have to, since it is supposedly his most important need.

And since he claimed that his #1 Emotional Need was Honesty, he inadvertently forced himself to practice it with our first Joint Agreement that we had to come to terms with this last weekend due to a deadline on an event that required "honesty". Can you believe it?

Well, it was quite amazing sitting there, choosing a mutually agreeable option over a Yes/No disagreement (before we had officially reached that part of the course). That's the one thing I didn't think he would accept about the course before introducing it to him.

He agreed, but not enthusiastically. I reminded him that it needs to be an "enthusiastic" agreement so that he does not suffer, and be unhappy, later. He claimed that because of the deadline, we had to do something and he would accept the consequences. I complied.

Observing:

I will answer each post in order. Not reading the next post until I respond to the one before.


Of course he does, you have busted him disrespecting you. Anger is the normal response.



A PA isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about "Looking" and modifying this behavior. So, please keep calling him out on it. And try to make it conversational. I like your line about Talking with other men as much and looking at other women. Use it on him. It's up to your H to modify his behavior. It is your job to present it to him in a manner that is non-jugdemental and he understands why it is hurting you. Makes it easier to change. You are trying to change behaviors that have existed for 20 years. Do not expect it to happen overnight. Think about where you were and where you are going.

As I said in the earlier posts, I like to look at other women as well. I try to be discreet. Because I do not want to offend my spouse. But, If I am having dinner with my spouse, and I look her in the eyes, have conversation with her, compliment her, and engage with her during the evening, then looking around and noticing others isn't being rude to her. She can look at other men as well. We can discuss this now. We could not really do this in the past. This is the difference between being secure in a M and feeling that you are about to be replaced. (Where you found yourself in the past) And, if she expressed displeasure in my looking around, I would do it even less. It's making her unhappy. I do not want to.



This is public, but it is also without names. You are one in 300 million, or 1 in 6 billion? You recognized a problem in your M. Lots of them. You came here for help. We are not perfect. And you are learning methods to talk and communicate with your H that change you M. That is not a bad thing.

Observing:

2.5 months of Plan A? Think of it as the lifetime plan. And your H seems to be beginning to address your EN's.

Which ones?

Affection. (he calls, emails etc.)
Conversation. (he talks and really engages with you)
Your Physical Attractivness (Hooche Hooche Mama!)

And you have made your list for your H. But, you still are suspisious (SP) of his motives. This is you letting down your guard. You do not want to get hurt again. That is true. But, if your H is changing, always encourage this good behavior. One day you will feel secure, (How much better is it now?)

Now this is interesting:



If he denyed it was true, and claimed that Financial Support was most important to him, would it change your behaviors? Yes, you would need to start addressing this EN, and not the ones you think. His EN's are his, your EN's are yours. Your perception of his EN's does not make them his. And they may evolve over time as well.

But, you are probably very close with your list.

OBS:

What is your most important EN?

Would you list H&O first?

Are you being H&O with your H?

You claim he has been lying to you for 23 years, and how can he claim this EN as first?

Once again, are you being H&O with your H?

I will tell you that if you feel you have been lied to for 23 years, you have got a serious problem in your M. And this is very disrespectful of your H. Beacuse I do not sense 23 years of lies in your M. Missed expectations, yes.

You feel that he has had a PA. He may be in one or was in one. You keep searching. Be prepared for it. The techniques you are learning, and your H as well, may lead you to discovering the truth. And he might be the one revealing it.

As for the "offical form" My Spouse whnted to use the "offical Form" to discover as well. But most of the discovery came through conversation and learning about the various concepts. Our first cut at the EN's was done in a manner that seemed not to offend the other spouse. Later, we relisted the EN's as we learned more about each other. Remember that.



EN's are not reserved for one partner of the other. He gets "Honesty" I get to choose from the 9 that are left.

You can both have the same top 5 EN'S.

Also, and this one of the most important things that we learned in this process, that your spouse knows what your EN's are. Subconsiously. And as the M gets worse and worse, the spouses withdraw support of the other spouses EN's. And may even directly abuse the other spouses EN's in order to make the other spouse miserable. Afterall, you are miserable, why shouldn't the spouse be? Its the other spouse's fault anyway.

My spouse would kick heck out of my admiration EN. Why? because it hurt me. She didn't know why, but she knew that the button worked. And I stayed away from the house. Playing golf, working, volunteering, and eventually an A, etc. Beating up her Family Committment need. It was a death sprial. Until we read HNHN, we didn't know what we were doing. Now we do. And we work for each other EN's now.

ANd your first experience with the POJA? Was a little awkward. Why? Because you are learning something new. A better way. And it takes time to get comfortable with it. But it is a better way.

Lousygolfer,


Thanks, that was very helpful.

Perhaps I should explain myself a little better regarding the last post.

When my husband told me about his #1 Emotional Need, he said he had no choice but to pick it because, "That is why I married you". He said it was something he couldn't live without in marriage. I understand, completely.

But as much as he likes having Honesty & Openness in his spouse, apparently he hadn't thought it was important for him to have those same qualities. Otherwise he wouldn't have lied to me for 23 years when I was open and honest about his wanderings eyes and how it hurt me.

I think he has been of the mindset that as long as his wife "shows her hand" at all times, then he never has to worry about how he is going to play his game.

I think this is a hypocritical way of living.

It was when I finally clammed up (silence) and started snooping (tracking, testing, recording) out of suspicion that he realized he couldn't see my hand the same way he used to and realized he had to contribute to our marriage to make it better, otherwise there wasn't going to be much of a marriage.

Just weeks ago while on our vacation and after the subject of wandering eyes came up, he said, "I don't do that anymore" (so there's no need to bring it up). I looked at him surprised and said, "You mean after 23 years of looking, you have changed overnight"? He was silent.

In other words, as much as he likes ME to be honest with him, HE is not necessarily honest with me.

That is why I feel the way I do about his #1 EN. Is it really that he likes to benefit from the honesty of others but doesn't want to give of himself and be honest with the same people he requires honesty from?

I don't think my husband could claim that I haven't wholeheartedly fulfilled his need for Honesty & Openness (H&O) for 23 years. But I do question whether H&O belongs at the top of his list. Perhaps he should put it as #5 on the list that I made for him! Unless it is true that he wants me to show my hand, but he doesn't want me to see his. Or that he really does have plans to become an honest and open person in the future.

You know what they say, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" (sincerity). But if this can be done, then I don't think our marriage has serious problems.

I married him because I believed he would be faithful to me, that is, I could trust him and that he was sincere with me. This explains my #1 EN below, which took on the most importance the moment we made our marriage vows.

My top 3 ENs (the rest I am presently undecided on):

1. Honesty & Openness (sincerity in a relationship)
2. Affection (as basic to me as comforting a child)
3. Conversation (explains my lengthy posts)

Observing - you may want to read the links in my signature line and see if they speak to you.
Mulan

Obs:

Mulan can offer a lot of help. Review her threads.

Ok, But lets look at it this way.

Your H says the O&H is his #1 EN.

You immediatly discount this, state that it isn't and he wants it from all others, but he doesn't need to be that way himself.

Can you see this?

That's how we beat up someone's EN. We know what they are, and then we push that button.

What if he claimed that SF was EN #1?

Would you have reacted the same way? Would you have offered more SF or less? Remember, you did have the sexual aversion to him. (May have been deserved, but that is a different issue to address)

So, take it a face value. And then make him live up to it. "This is what I need to know" "Can you address this in a forthright manner."

You have told him that you suspect that he was in an A. Let him address this issue with you. You really do not have proof. But, as this site says, if you suspect, then they probably are having one. Ask for an answer. Then tell him that his future ACTIONS will minimize your need to suspect him of it. Those future ACTIONS, not words, are being H&O with you, and keeping his eyes on you.

You are making progress. As weird as that seems.

Mulan,

I think you might be on to something!

I found words like sulk, blame, avoid and lie - jump out at me, as I was all too familiar with them on a daily basis.

But my husband doesn't fit ONE of the main descriptions, as he FINISHES every project or job he ever starts. He's very responsible that way, and a dedicated provider.

Still, I want to learn from the information you shared with me. Thank you!

Lousygolfer,


Actually, it's the other way around. HE is having a hard time accepting his own #1 EN.

Let me explain.

Last night, during our Undivided Attention time of practicing Affection, he asked me what I was thinking about (I must have moved my leg in such a way to draw his curiosity).

I paused because I didn't really have much on my mind, but searched my thoughts anyway. I came up with a calm explanation of his earlier comment on "giving up" (the course) if he would have to encounter reminders of the ways he needs to improve (since he concluded that he has so many).

I explained my feelings that if I practiced the same thought process (attitude), I too could give up and we wouldn't get anywhere in our relationship. As an example and practically quoting Dr. Harley, I explained that if he were to give up on Affection, I could, in turn, give up on Sexual Fulfillment.

He instantly got mad at me and demanded, "Why are you talking that way"? I looked at him, confused at what I had supposedly done to him (he was blaming me), and then it occurred to me, so I responded by saying, "You asked me what was on my mind and I was trying to be open and honest with you". Then he realized he was in the wrong for getting mad at me.

This (asks me, then blames me) happens ALL the time.

Yeah right, his #1 EN is Honesty & Openness? I think I'd rather spend my time on lots of Sexual Fulfillment, because at least he thoroughly enjoys THAT.

Isn't an Emotional Need supposed to make you HAPPY when it's fulfilled? Well, he wasn't happy. I think I can reasonably conclude that fulfilling this EN does NOT make him very happy.

But sex DOES. Attractiveness DOES. Admiration DOES. And Companionship DOES.

In summary, fulfilling the EN of H&O did the opposite (made him unhappy). Gee thanks, like I'm supposed to be withdrawing Love Units at a time when I want to DEPOSIT them. That's why this EN is so dangerous being at the top of his list.

But I do recognize the PROGRESS we've made. He used to DENY that he was getting mad at me while he was raising his voice. But now, with his EN revelation, he had to admit it.

My husband is the type that won't budge until you hold up a mirror for him to look into, and then once he sees himself he'll reconsider, especially if he knows you're paying attention. So things ARE happening and he is being more optimistic these days, which I really enjoy!

Keep in mind that before I make any decisions on how I will respond to his #1 EN, I came here with my FEELINGS so that I would say and do the right thing when the time comes.

My husband has NO idea that I have any feelings about his #1 EN because I quietly listened to everything he said to me. I think he was satisfied with his revelation.

So here's my question. If you were me, what words would you use to express my frustrations about his #1 EN?

Words:
" "

Oh my gosh, I may have just answered my own question. If I calmly explain to him how unhappy it makes him for me to fulfill the need for H&O, he may realize that he can't keep it at the top of his list, otherwise I'm going to be in the RED with his Love Bank account very soon!

And hey, I have YOU to thank, Lousygolfer. You are really not that lousy of a golfer as you think! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If not for you, I would not have had the opportunity to see this in a different light. I truly appreciate your help.

Observing, some people only use P/A tactics in their intimate relationships. My H is also extremely successful and very hardworking - he is a high-level corporate executive - and was never P/A at work. He pulled it out and aimed both barrels square at me when I started objecting to his going out with the girls he worked with. He had me damn near suicidal with the P/A stuff before I understood what it was.
Mulan

Mulan,

Whoa!

I see you have far more experience and insight on this than I do. Looks like I have to take this more seriously.

Sure appreciate your help.

Obs - You must remember that P/A people are very heavily invested in remaining victims. That's because if you are a victim, nothing is ever your fault, and if nothing is ever your fault then you never deserve any consequences.

If your husband is using P/A tactics against you, he will use YOUR openness and honesty as an excuse to blame YOU and remain YOUR victim. He will turn anything you say on its head and turn the blame right back on YOU - just as he did in the example you gave.

Get the picture?
Mulan

Mulan,

I hear you. Word for word, that is EXACTLY what I feel like is happening.

Observing:

Mulan may be on to something regarding P/A behavior. There is a long thread on here about it. It may be Mulan's, I have not been there, not an issue for us.

As for your post, I would hate to admit this, but I didn't really understand what you were talking about. So, my response may seem illogical.

Let me start with being a guy, we never have the complete recall that our spouses have when an activity occurs.

Example: (I must have moved my leg in such a way to draw his curiosity) Huh? Did you kick him? Were you sitting next to each other and you bumped his leg? Did you just happen to stretch? Please note, that a silent period between two people, when broken by activity by one party, is usually an indicator that someone wishes to speak.

I do not ask for an answer to this, just that is it important? You were having a conversation with him. For years, you have never had time like this with him. Now you are. Take your time here. Sometimes, it can be all that you are thinking about is the fact that the two of you are together and you are enjoying the moment. You do not have to respond in a confrontational manner. Just let the moments flow sometimes and get into a good habit of being with each other. He could have been thinking about work, that weekends football games or the fact that the pillow in his back was in the wrong spot.....

So, to get to the meat of the convo:



This sounded good. And reasonable. Something to follow up on with him.

We should encounter reminders of ways we need to improve. How else would we? We can yell at someone to do it. Doesn't work very well. We can point out actions that are wrong at the time they occur, and ask for them to stop. We can also bring it up later, such as times like this, and then we say, "This is how I feel about this when you do that", and through POJA, think of ways to aviod these action from happening in the future. Keep it calm.

Then you went here:


Given a little more context, this would not sound as DJ as it looks on its face. The first part really seems DJ to me. The second part is ok.

Then you throw the hand grenade:



Boom, he blows up. Your thinking, where did that come from? Put it all together. "same thought process" "you give up Affection" "I give up SF"

There was a whole lot going on in that. And then you say "I was being Open and Honest" He realizes he is wrong. But did you resolve it?

THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!

Do you see the emotional curveballs in all this? And your H doesn't have nearly the knowledge that you have in regards to this website and Dr. Harleys books.

Openess and honesty is supposed to make you HAPPY, as you state. It does not give you the right to attack. You can temper your words with qualifiers, and add info to make sure your H gets the real point. And sometimes O&H may make the other person mad. (Does it ever make me feel good to hear "How could you have treated me as poorly as you did during your A?) My spouse and I have worked out some areas pretty good. But sometimes, O&H means you just have to lay out there how you really feel. But they need to know a potential blast of some sort is coming. Happened recently. Ouch!

How do you have "frustrations" with his #1 EN? Do you want to prove to him that it isn't?


But that was the question I asked last post isn't it? If it is his #1 EN, go with it and be O&H. Temper those times when he needs to really "get" it. Do not try to prove him wrong. Those are heel marks you see on the floor. You can not drag him to this conclusion. Eventually, you will discover his real #1 EN. and it may be #2 or #3 on the list. But you will know, if you keep up the conversation. You do not even need to ackowledge it. You just do it.

Isn't it better that he is meeting some of your EN's now? I applaud your progress! Remember that its not where you been, its where you are going.

And thank you for the kind words, and yes, I am a lousy golfer.

Observing - what is your husband's opinion of POJA?
Mulan

Lousygolfer,


I think you're right. And if that is the case, my husband will be using my H&O against me like he has for years.

I would like to work on the BIG TICKET items (sex, attractiveness, admiration, companionship) and keep his Love Bank full, like it is now.

Here is what he emailed me yesterday:

"…Lover, I feel like our love is going beyond what I could ask for."

Mulan,

Before I answer your question, I have to say that the SKY OPENED UP for me when I read your explanation of Passive/Aggressive behavior above. I was speechless for hours.

I realize I have work to do in understanding just how to respond to my husband to make our relationship better and stamp out the P/A behavior that has been strangling our marriage.

After reading your post, I sat down to dinner with my husband and children, looked at my husband and felt deeply sorry for him that he was mistreated as a child (domineering father to this day) and doesn't even realize he has the behavior he does.

I was thankful that my children haven't picked up on that behavior since he is normally soft-spoken at the table, not appearing to be harmful in any way – just quietly pouring salt on wounds that he would inflict on ME or poking ME with his moody pin to get me to react.

He happens to be a master at making me look bad and himself look innocent.

But I've been catching on. I have felt myself start to become someone I don't want to be (silent, avoiding him). I often ask myself, "Who do you want to be"? Be that.

So I continue on the path of making our family the best we can be, something we are proud of. The attitude of giving up and being pessimistic is not a good option for a happy family.

Here's an answer to your POJA question:

My husband thinks Dr. Harley is "the ladies man", that is, he makes the wives happy by setting up the course in their favor (against the husbands). He mentioned this more than once and laughs about it. I think it has much to do with the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA).

Before I began my version of Plan A, my answer to you would have been, "There is NO WAY he is EVER going to agree to the POJA, enthusiastically." It would definitely be the deciding factor in whether or not the marriage course would work out (or our marriage for that matter).

But I realized that if he DIDN'T want to love me in such a simple way as agreeing on something that would make us BOTH happy, then he didn't really love me and HE would become the BAD GUY (which he never wants to be) for refusing to work on our marriage. So I gave it a try (introduced the course) anyway (even though he bucked the idea).

Last weekend was our first chance to practice the POJA. At first he got moody and sadly agreed that we had to do something. The next day, we came to an agreement but he was not enthusiastic about it. He said because of the event deadline, he would accept the consequences of his actions.

On the same day of the agreement I let him know (after he asked) that I felt "unappreciated" during Sexual Fulfillment the night before, because he allowed the agreement process to put a DAMPER on the highlight of my month which was dinner out (plus SF afterwards).

This gentle, sincere answer shocked him practically into a standing position (slight exaggeration) because he thinks he is the END ALL (eventually he could be) in Sexual Fulfillment. He felt real bad about how he treated me and has shaped up since. Let's just say he knows I'm paying attention.

The point I want to make is that he DID come to an agreement. And since he has shaped up, he has NOT held a grudge regarding that agreement. This is the FIRST time since we've been married that an originally yes/no disagreement turned out for the better, without the consequences of an obvious GRUDGE against me. I think this is a sign that he is changing for the better.

What seemed to have changed his attitude on agreement making, was when I confronted him point blank ("I feel…") on his Heart Adultery (wandering eyes) and gave him the ultimatum that I wouldn't want to have sex with him as long as I wasn't the only woman in our marriage. And I meant it.

Things have changed for us ever since (his confession). That was the TURNING POINT (which makes me think that he secretly wants ME to bail him out of his misery) in our marriage. Maybe he realizes that I have relationship boundaries that I am willing to draw - with or without him!

Go baby!

We'll see what happens when we get to the real meat and potatoes of his P/A behavior which includes Personality Disorder relatives/in-laws in business. I don't see how he can fully change his P/A behavior until the puppet strings to his VERY domineering father are cut and the umbilical cord to his mother is clamped. He doesn't like disappointing them. But it doesn't even bother him to disappoint me.

I have never insisted on these things (cut, clamp) because I'm not the kind of wife who wants a leash or reigns on her husband. Instead, I want him to FREELY love me, like I freely love him.

It's just that I had come to a DEAD END in our marriage since I was beginning to act like him by being silent and avoiding his presence. He didn't like this and seemed to drift away more. Not good for a marriage.

The only thing he did differently during this silent time was to ask more questions trying to get something out of me so that he could know what was going on (which is also his chance to turn my H&O against me).

For example, about the time we were waiting for the course to arrive, he confided that our relationship may not be able to improve until he parted from his relatives/business. So his solution was to tell his relatives that he would be quitting the business for marital reasons (blame me). I became unglued (which is what he probably wanted).

Only this time, I drew the line. I explained that I have been the bad guy for all these years while enduring the wrath of relatives, and if he makes me the bad guy in quitting his job and leaving town, it will be a FATAL BLOW (to our relationship). I could not be happy with him under those conditions.

He thought my words were STRONG. He couldn't believe that I would react that way. I told him that if I don't turn this subject into a STORM, he would ignore me, do as he pleases, turn me into the bad guy while making himself the good guy - only to find out that he'll lose what he's got altogether. In other words, don't forget this, as it WILL be the last straw.

He might actually consider working with me this time.

Now that I realize he is Passive/Aggressive, I will make an adjustment to my communication to help him overcome this behavior in the same way I overcame my Sexual Aversion to him.

Do you have a quick and easy list for me to start with?

I've been noticing something lately.

My husband has been following of pattern of behavior for about a month now. He'll hold my hand during conversation about our relationship, usually after discussing or reading the MB course. When he does this, he holds my hand tightly and he looks at me very seriously (rare for him). It happened again today.

I feel like he wants to tell me something. I don't know if he's worried (low self-esteem) about what the EN Questionnaire is going to look like when I'm done filling it out or if he has something he wants to tell me that I wouldn't like to hear (Physical Affair).

He also mentioned after Sexual Fulfillment last night that he "doesn't deserve" me. I've heard him say this before. Could it just be low self-esteem or could there be a reason to not be "deserved" (PA)?

Also, I should mention that he has woken up in the night or had restless mornings (can't get back to sleep) more than usual since we've been working on our relationship.

If this rings a bell to anyone, please let me know what questions I should ask and in what order. Also, what should the atmosphere be like when I ask the questions?

I think he is showing signs that he wants to communicate something to me. If he does have bad news to tell me, I want to draw it out and help him find relief. But I don't want to imply that I think he needs to tell me something, in case I'm wrong.

Observing;

Keep doing what you are doing.

He may reveal something like a PA, or EA, or that he has gambled all the family money away on an online poker site.

He is saying some of the classic Affair lines. "doesn't Deserve you", the serious look. He may want to reveal one.

So, be ready to be calm when it does happen. And have a plan for what happens next. And think about it, do not do anything rash. A very emotional display with the throwing of things, yelling, "I Knew IT!, You are a @@@(((###, and ##(($$!, Move out, Now, I'm Divorcing your lying cheating ###00, etc. It may just make him crawl back into his shell. I was really surprized by how calm my BS did take the news. She was emotional, Crying, Sobbing etc, but we talked for over 36 hours in 4 days about it. I came clean at that time. You may need to take alot longer to get the full story. A bad reaction at the beginning may prevent you ever getting the full story.

He may also reveal nothing quite as dramatic as the above. Do not speculate too much. Your expectations may be greater than his actual revelation. Does not mean that it is not something that took him a long time to feel comfortable telling you.

He may just be realizing how screwed up this M has been and his part in it. AND he might be really disappointed in himself for letting it happen.

Remember, the point of MB and this website is to build great Marriages. By teaching you and your spouse better habits and behaviors to connect and create love for one another. And dispose of those old bad habits that create distance in a relationship.

You may never be able to forgive your H if he had an A. You may divorce him in the future. Your grounds will not be because he had an A. Your grounds will be because he decided to crawl back into that shell.

Do you like this person that is emerging? If you do, you will like him even better if you two stay on track.

It a long road. Do not worry about the stations that you pass, you may not even know that you pass them, but when you look back, you will see that they were there. And the baggage that you left there.

Also, I doubt that your H has low self-esteem. He is just displaying classic avoidance of whatever he might like to reveal.

Well, not exactly - I'm not really sure what you're asking here.

I would just say to keep doing what you're doing - follow Plan A to the letter, which it sounds like you are already - and deal with any P/A stuff that comes up by calling him on it.

The POJA sounds fairly encouraging. At least he seems to be willing to try. P/A people HATE the POJA. You woulda thought I'd asked by husband to stop breathing when I asked him to POJA things with me. So that sounds promising.

Just remember that P/A behaviour does not go away overnight. Just when you think it's finished, or cured, he'll hit you with something else. Many experts consider it to be an addiction of sorts.

Just hang in there! From what you have posted, it sounds promising.
Mulan

Lousygolfer,


That's what I fear.


Yes, I do. And if by staying on track it gets better, that's great!


I will do that. I trust that you know what is needed. And I can't thank you enough for cluing me in on this BEFORE I might need to use this advice.

If anything bad is revealed to me, I plan to put my emotions aside and listen carefully and ask questions to draw out more truth, until I get it all.

After all the nights of lost sleep and suspicions here and there and everywhere (whether real or not), I really don't care what I would hear anymore. All I want is the TRUTH.

Then, if I find my emotions running high, I can always come to this forum and spill my guts.

And get help.

You know what? I counted on your advice. You gave it to me. What a friend this forum has! Thank you.

Mulan,

Thanks for being there.

I sure appreciate your wisdom and encouragement. And after reading some of your other posts, I sure feel for you!

Recently, I read more on Passive/Aggressive behavior.

I just couldn't believe what I was reading about the "boomerang" relationship. Although my husband and I experience more STEAM spouting off here and there than we do VOLCANOES like other couples, I'm finding that his P/A behavior can be just as destructive to our relationship.

The information on P/A helped me to do a good job on the next task. I kept thinking to myself, "When he throws the boomerang toward me, CATCH IT MID AIR, and don’t let it go back". This helps me to remember what to do while it's happening.

However, I was somewhat discouraged at how hard it is for a P/A person to change. It may be something I have to live with (work on) for the rest of my life. I don't know.


Will do.


Yeah, I had to "call him on it" a couple times in less than a week already.

First, because he was anti-social (hanging head, avoiding eye contact, avoiding conversation with me) at the dinner table the day after a great night of Sexual Fulfillment (SF) and an afternoon of working on the marriage course, and secondly, because of practically no contact (phone, email or text messaging) for nearly the whole day at work after another special evening of SF.

I am sensitive to how he treats me after we are intimate with each other. I look forward to the same closeness after SF that we have during SF, but obviously in a different way during the day. If he doesn't seem to care about me or ignores me the next day, it doesn't go over very well with me as Affection (the necessary environment for sex).

So both times, I had to be the "bad guy" for RUINING another anticipated evening of SF by expressing how I felt about us not being close outside the bedroom, only inside the bedroom.

After being unfairly blamed, listening to his excuses and bringing him back to the topic, I reminded him that whether or not he thought I was right wasn't the issue because it was still the way I FELT and that he couldn’t INVALIDATE my feelings, especially after asking me to be open and honest with him.

The first time, he confided that by confronting him, it removed a "huge road block" in communication for him. He was a different man the next day.

By the second time, he was realizing that he was cutting me off from sharing things with him and preventing us from solving our problems and growing closer together.

Then I agreed to not "clam up" for fear of him "taking it out on me" through sulking and accusations. And he agreed to listen to me as soon as I feel like we're going off track (him not being affectionate with me but willing to have sex, as though sex is a sign of closeness but affection isn't).

He got the point. If he wasn't going to be affectionate with me, I wasn't going to feel close enough to him to feel like having sex. And for the first time he rephrased it in such a way that it was very believable that he was sincere with me in wanting what was best for BOTH of us.

He said he would rather back off on SF until I felt that Affection balanced with it. This was reassuring and revealed to me that he understood the problem and was willing to work on it.

In other words, he indicated he didn't want me to feel "used" anymore than he wanted to "use" me. Actually, he said he felt sick that I felt that way (used) at all.

But he felt GREAT (and later even smiled) when I told him how HURT I was when I went into his business office that night (first time in a few years, and with the purpose of making copies and setting up a hardware keylogger on his computer) and found out that our romantic portrait was GONE (no longer on the shelf).

He said it meant a lot to him that I cared deeply about that picture and he volunteered to put it back on the shelf as soon as possible.

It was another one of those painful moments that supposedly helped him realize that I don't fit into the ugly box of "not loving him" like he had DECIDED I did.

I'm beginning to feel good about our progress. And now I'm finding myself letting my guards down and silently asking him to help me carry this load (join me in the relationship building).

It seems to be consistently getting better, with only slight setbacks like the ones explained above. Neither one of us wants to go back to where we were, that is, I was giving him a taste of his own silent treatment (part of the reason was to avoid being the bad buy all the time)!

With a hardware keylogger, now I should be able to get pertinent information faster without giving myself away through detection software. Also, I'm going to upgrade the GPS tracking device to real-time, as I'm getting tired of secretly approaching his vehicle to change the batteries or download data.

Good thing the first and most suspected semen test was negative (I ruined his underwear by testing it directly). Even though I saw him washing his laundry after he came home that night, it still could be a coincidence because he does do his own laundry.

The vehicle tracking information was accountable almost to the hour, although there may have been 1 hour or so of unaccountable time on that day. I think it could have been a conversational delay (his business sibling talks a lot). My husband was somewhat vague on the time he left his meeting.

I feel that I need to get into his business computer to know for sure. I know he deletes anything on his business cell phone that is private. He does the same with emails on his business computer (doesn't use home computers, not computer savvy). He is not the kind of guy who wants his private life to be public! So if I ever needed to, EXPOSURE would be very effective.

When the time comes to see the keylogger results, I'm going to feel AWEFUL. I'm the kind of person who respects other people's privacy, so if I'm wrong about suspecting him, I hope he FORGIVES me for snooping (I just need peace of mind).

Observing:

Keep working it.

You are making headway. Serious headway.

You have not described your H response or committment to the Harley training, You have described some parts in the past, but how is it going now?

Since you do not go to your H's office often, you now have to make additional reasons to go. How long does it take to download the keylogger info and how are you going to get it? Try to vist at unannounced times. If he knows you are coming by, you have to go early, and be waiting for him. Do not go when you know he isn't go to be there, unless you want to drop off something special... (Flowers, a card, something he would like...) It looks too suspisous. And others will tell him you were there. Unless, you can get there without anyones elses knowledge.

Realtime GPS is great, what is the distance that the radio transmits? Or is it attached to a cell phone?

A word of advice. When you use the keylogger and GPS, please check weekly. If you find something, do not reveal your sources, and if in about three weeks, you notice nothing untoward, then lighten up. Just check every other week. Or discontinue.

If he had an affair, nothing you are doing now will uncover it. If he is in one, you will know in a week. The keylogger tells all. After getting into my A, a keylogger would have had me in less than a week. Even if OW was on vacation, we would always stay in contact.

You are checking for your satisfaction that he is not currently in an A. You do not need to reveal this right away, and maybe never. ONce you get the goods, you can build you case for exposure as needed to break it up. If he is not in an A, he already knows you suspect him, if you ever reveal to him that you had "snooped" then he just has to deal with that later. If he fully supports the Harley process, when and if the "snooping" is revealled, it will because he asked and he has to accept the truth. You were confirming his ACTIONS, not his WORDS, remember that.

The last caveat: As I said before, you may find nothing, or you just might find confirmation of the worst. Be prepared.

LG

Lousygolfer,

I hope you and your family had a nice Thanksgiving!


We're still working on our EN lists. We haven't progressed much from that point in the course.

We seem to be expressing our ENs through conversation more than we are getting those needs onto the official forms. And that explains why we are not advancing to the next chapters in the book (if we follow the order of the assignments).

There'll be more on my husband's opinion of Dr. Harley's Policy of Radical Honesty below…


Oh, I appreciate this advice. It confirmed my plans and I haven't deterred from them because of what you said.

I can do one of two things. I can go when nobody knows. Or I can go when only he knows (make copies). I've been doing the latter.

I've used all the creatively I could gather in choosing the most current and understandable reasons for going to his office, which is working perfectly.

There is NO WAY I could download the information at his office without taking the chance of someone showing up during those minutes. So I bought 2 keyloggers that can be quickly switched with each other when necessary.

Yeah, it cost me double ($500.00), but then I can download the data after I get home and view the information in private at another time.

It's fast. It's effective. And no fingerprints!


It's the one detectives use and works either around the country or around the world. The device makes use of GPS and SIM to collect and notify of data. The online account allows you to view maps and choose your monthly allowance of service.

I like it because I only need to change the batteries once a month. And on days that I suspect anything, I can watch real-time if I want to by first receiving text messages on my phone and then by logging onto the website to get more data.

Yeah, it's another $500.00 plus monthly costs. So I haven't bought it yet because I want to first see if there's any suspicious behavior with the keylogger.

Once the keylogger arrived, I've found myself more relaxed about our relationship. I already feel SO MUCH better having this tool. It's MAJOR for me. I absolutely LOVE having it because it is going to give me the peace of mind that I need so desperately.


Thanks for the cues. Wow, this gives me a time frame to be looking at. Sure helpful!

Okay, I'm ready to relax if after 3 weeks of keylogging, I don't find anything.

At the same time, I think I'm realizing how identical Passive/Aggressive behavior is to Adulterous behavior. I think it's hard to tell the difference because P/A people can be so distant and secretive about their intimacy. This creates much distrust, especially if you uncover any semi-relevant lies. For my husband, it could be something as simple (actually as COMPLEX) as P/A behavior.


I can't tell you how much I appreciate your support!

Here's an update…

Good News 1: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The first 24 hours (that's all I have access to at the moment) of keylogging showed my husband CLEAN. I was impressed.

I know, I know, I need to give it more time. I had to start over on the keylogger because I was so frantic when secretly setting it up that I missed seeing the back-up battery in the package which provides the time-date stamping.

What's more, I could hardly sleep that night wondering if the hardware would actually be detected by the computer or that maybe I didn't plug it in correctly and the connection would be compromised. All imagined worries, as I am fairly computer literate.

Good News 2: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The property issue has been settled. Well, sort of. We still have to get the property in my name too since we ARE married. Also I feel bad that I was never included in the decision of where the property lines would be drawn. It's a bitter/sweet victory for me.

Progress Report: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

More of the same has been happening. Hey, and I'm getting worn out!

For example, we had great nights of Sexual Fulfillment (SF), followed by a lack of Affection on his part the day after. The fourth time overall (first two described in a previous post), which was when he stood in front of me with his arms at his side looking like he didn't want to hug me after coming home from work, SET ME OFF.

I had been happy all day, had a great hair day for his sake, wore his favorite dangling earrings, and greeted him with a smile. We did hug, but it felt more like hugging a deflated balloon than a husband who cared about his wife's existence.

I can't stand that stuff. I thought we had some kind of an understanding about Affection by now. Didn't he read the Affection chapter twice? Didn't he ask me what I liked for Affection already? Didn't I show him Dr. Harley's list when he asked me again as though I never told him in the first place? Haven't we spent weeks talking about this?

Apparently (found out later), he had a STRESSFUL day at work. I believe it. He always does! But this time he was taking extra heat from his relatives who PUNISHED him because he stood firm (bless his heart) in our first Policy of Joint Agreement.

During the day, he didn't let me know what was going on. In the past, I've asked him to please let me know (SHORT phone call, email, text message, ANYTHING) when things are going bad at work so that I can more easily understand his day by the time he gets home.

Well, I had enough. But I didn't want to get upset or bring up any faults because it would play into his Passive/Aggressive (P/A) mentality of becoming a VICTIM.

So I did what I NEVER do (with the fury of energy I acquired from the moment). I turned cold on him, looked past him at dinner, left the dinner table early and went about my business without him that night. Isn't that like going DARK?

He went to bed without indicating he wanted to work things out, which is his normal pattern of relationship problem solving anyway.

By morning, I tried to get back into my version of Plan A. I sent him an email because I knew we shouldn't go days without speaking and he had mentioned earlier that he didn't like being on a rollercoaster.

I took the plunge. I explained to him what I understood about P/A behavior and how I think it is interfering with our relationship building, and that I felt we needed counseling for this behavior because I felt that I couldn't continue having sex with him if he doesn't want to be affectionate with me the day after.

He replied by admitting part of the behavior, giving me his own opinion of our relationship problems and then "stabbed me in the back" with an intimate tool which was unrelated to the point of discussion.

He cut deep. I had a feeling I shouldn't have been so honest with him in the past regarding our sexual intimacy. He would use it against me. And he did.

During conversation that night, I mentioned two things:

First, that what he said about me was completely untrue (he did it to hurt me).

And second, that I had come up with a QUICK FIX solution to help us balance Sexual Fulfillment and Affection: that we could have SF if he had the next day off from work so that he would be FRIENDLY to me. He enthusiastically agreed with the SF plan.

Apparently, we recovered. The next day his email went like this:

"I feel so blessed to have a wife that is faithful to her marriage in good times and not so good times…we're making great progress in our communication…I think last night was major."

But it took a couple more days (and a lot of guts) for me to put into words how I thought he used something very personal about me to hurt me and that if he was going to use my honesty against me, then I wouldn't feel safe giving him information like that in the future.

Then for hours, I felt like I had to "take the BULL by the HORNS" to keep my feelings validated over his lack of acceptance of those feelings.

I'm convinced he doesn't realize his responses are part of P/A behavior. It's as though anything I say about our relationship gives him the opportunity to OBJECT. He even claimed a "stalemate" over my feelings on P/A behavior as though they were invalid because he disagreed and as though we were playing a game or fighting a war.

I think I'm at a crossroads now. I feel like we can become only as intimate as it takes to GET ALONG but not as intimate as it would take for him to TURN AGAINST ME when it suits him.

I enjoyed what had become our lighthearted and fun 3 days-a-WEEK of SF that he initiated, but now we're at 1 day-a-WEEK to help us stay off the emotional rollercoaster. I guess that's better than the 1 day-a-MONTH we were at before we began our relationship building.

I think this might be a good, realistic plateau for us in our relationship. I'm happy we're getting along better and I think we have learned some lifetime skills, like trying to find common interests with Conversation as we do with Recreational Companionship (RC). Plus, we always have the option of more SF when balanced with more Affection.

I was surprised he worked with me on the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA). I thought the POJA was going to be the "straw that broke the camels back" for our relationship building. But instead, I fear the straw is going to be the Policy of Radical Honesty (PORH).

Just yesterday, my husband said he doesn't agree with Dr. Harley's radical honesty policy. How convenient for my husband! Isn't he the same man who wants Honesty & Openness from his wife?

I'm sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think honesty isn't going to be what I hoped it would be in our marriage.

I'm having feelings of not completing the course since I can't count on the best part of it anyway.

My husband could eventually agree to honesty, but I'm afraid it won't be the truth.

Now what?

Observing:

One point, I really can not respond until after Dec 4.

You have been involved with this man for 20 or more years.

You have made more progress in dealing with some of his issues in the past two months.

Give it time.

Please.

IT takes it.

Lousygolfer,


You're right.

This stuff takes time.

I do need to be patient.

Things ARE improving (update below).

Update…

The Lord must have heard my cry…

Just about when I was too sad for cuddling, my husband climbed into bed and took me in his arms like he hasn't for years. I noticed. I wasn't sure what it meant this time. It was very touching.

The next day, he came to me with Honesty & Openness about what has recently transpired with his relatives.

Apparently, his parents had "taken sides" with his business sibling's family members on a matter of opinion unrelated to business, but directly related to our first Policy of Joint Agreement, which was none of their business.

As a result, we were not invited to their Thanksgiving dinner, an event we have rarely, if ever, missed. It was the day after Thanksgiving that my husband unexpectedly met up with other relatives who had traveled to town for the occasion. That's when he realized what had been going on behind our backs.

Not good. But this was a "turning point" for my husband.

Now he knows how CONDITIONAL those friendships are. And how un-accepting his relatives can be when we attempt to make our own decisions.

We have made decisions similar to this agreement before, but this time, my husband was honest (no sugar-coated side-stepping answers) with his mother when she asked about it.

He was trying to practice honesty (effects of the MB course) and now maintains that his relatives are not honest with each other and he wants to change that in himself (very important considering one of my last posts).

You can imagine how PROUD of him I was when I heard that, even though he was very nervous when answering his mother, he courageously endured the emotional accusations when she attempted to manipulate him over our agreement.

Wow. This MB course seems to be having an effect on my husband. I guess I shouldn't be giving up so soon!

And get this. By the time we finished talking that day, we had agreed to go into business together. Did I say that? Yes! And this will be the biggest and most important decision my husband has made since getting married (and having children).

It's going to change EVERYTHING. No more "puppet strings". No more "umbilical cord". Plus he won't have the enormous stress of making sure that over a hundred employees are getting paid and the family-owned corporation is profiting.

This is a dream come true for me (if it really does happen). We will be able to live our own life. And grow together as a couple.

It should be just a matter of time. As soon as my husband feels ready to change occupations, he's going to break the news.

And believe me. All h--- is going to break loose!

But I think my husband realizes there is no future there for us. He says he can't guarantee how his relatives will react (sell the corporation, disown us, whatever). Only that he KNOWS the foolish spending will STOP, as there won't be any more money to spend!

Hey, and I can't wait to have my husband's expertise as a financial/data analyzer available for my business (at least part time). Yeah, I would like to see that "good fruit" going back into our family instead of into a corporation with a dishonest hole in it!

Sounds very promising. Now don't get your hopes way up over this. Have patience, and be sure to give him lots of admiration.

More good news…

Last night, my husband told me about an encounter he had yesterday with his "guilt ridden" father regarding Thanksgiving and how we were left out of the celebration.

He did another GREAT job with one of his parents. I am ecstatically PROUD of him!

You see, my husband had predicted what his father would do. And it happened. So my husband was ready with some questions in mind.

He gently, but honesty confronted his father after his father approached him. His father didn't have much of an answer. Actually, the answer dug him deeper into a hole.

At least the problem is not being swept under the rug. That's what's important.

Also, I noticed that my husband is now saying that his relatives have "personality disorders". It makes me LAUGH inside, because I think he is ADAMANT about NOT having a personality disorder (P/A). Good. Now we can get things done in our relationship.

Plus, on a more positive note, my husband is giving me "bear hugs" when he gets home from work. He now generously gives me Affection before bedtime and tells me about his day.

I have a lot to be thankful for!

Believer,

Thanks for the encouragement and words of wisdom!


I'll try to be realistic. But that might be hard. I'm sort of an "all or nothing" person. At least when he's got me, he's got my ALL!


I will do my best. It's already getting easier.

Admiration, and more admiration. It must be very difficult to stand up to his parents. Sounds like your husband is very motivated.

Believer,



That's right. In my husband's words:

"…hurts me more than I realize because of how I feel about my parents and the relationship I thought I had but really have not had."

I don't know what to think now.

My husband is suspicious of me (snooping).

Last night, I made an un-announced visit to his office to change a setting on the software keylogger that I eventually installed on his computer.

Even though I left the information of my whereabouts with my kids in the house, my husband happened to walk out of the garage with one of the other kids as I was driving out of the driveway. So I gave him a quick honk to say "see ya" (he always makes quick runs without notifying me first).

Then a few minutes after I arrived at his office, he SHOWED UP at the main office door!

I couldn't believe all that went through my mind in those few seconds as he unlocked the entrance door and headed down the hallway into his office.

He was FOLLOWING me. He was CHECKING UP on me!

He has NEVER done that. If I have ever made him curious, he'll ask questions later. He has never been suspicious of my behavior before (and I have never given him a reason).

I can't tell you how thankful I am to the Lord for protecting my task at that moment. Had my husband arrived 60 SECONDS earlier, the lights would have still been OFF and I would have been sitting at his computer logging in.

Instead, the lights were ON and I was entering a fax number into the fax machine near the main office entrance as he walked in the door.

He didn't stop to give me a hug or a kiss as is usual when we meet up with each other by SURPRISE.

He seemed determined to get into his office, to my shock and dismay (I acted casual though). Luckily, I had not authenticated the keylogger program for him to see on his computer screen!

Realizing that he was going to know within seconds that I was using his computer, I blurted out that I had planned to do Christmas shopping on his computer, since I couldn't do it at home with one of my older kids looking over my shoulder that day (which happened to be true).

It was a miracle the right words came out of my mouth as I watched him walk toward his office. He didn't turn around to acknowledge what I was saying either. He made a quick comment like "okay".

This NEVER would have worked and I would have been CAUGHT "red handed" had he not given me his password a week earlier after his parents betrayed him (Thanksgiving) and we searched for other job opportunities on his computer together.

Imagine me sitting at his computer and working on a keylogger program without having received his password from him. What a spotlight that would have been!

Okay. The reason I left the house without telling him beforehand was because I thought he was beginning to wonder why I was making more frequent trips to the office. Plus I wanted to make one last trip without having to explain myself. I figured I could explain afterwards this time.

The second-to-last trip, when I had installed the software keylogger, took me over 20 minutes longer than I had planned (10 minutes). I thought it would be my last trip, as I was quickly running out of valid reasons for going to his office.

But...yesterday morning, a SUSPECTED email came in (to his computer).

My heart started POUNDING when I read the return address (real-time emailed reports). It was from the only woman that I have come to suspect, simply because she had given him a gift which showed up at our house on the same day that I downloaded my first list on "signs of infidelity". My version of Plan A began the next day.

Besides reading MB material and the EN Questionnaire, the downloaded list from another website explained that infidelity signs will appear in "clusters". In other words, it may not be one sign, but a bunch of signs together that help you to know if something's going on. I read the "how he treats you" list and my husband fit nearly the entire list!

Then at dinner, I could hardly look at him without panic on my face when I heard that he brought home our dessert for the evening, which was given to him by a woman related to his job. We receive gifts for special occasions, but I wasn't yet aware that he had brought anything into the house and it wasn't a special occasion.

I remember him telling me her name when I asked one time after discussing business. He said that I "wouldn't know her" (I am familiar with practically everyone he works with), but that I "would like her" and that I "should get to know her" since her and I appreciate and buy similar product materials for our businesses and she is "very knowledgeable" in our materials category.

How did he become so aware of her knowledge without me finding out who she is? How much time have they spent together sharing this knowledge?

Apparently, she used to work at his company but now "has her own business". The reason we supposedly received dessert from her was because my husband had bought product stock for her business and the stock was supposedly misplaced before she was able to get her hands on it, so he re-ordered and then she showed her appreciation by giving our family this gift.

Thinking back, I had never felt comfortable with his answer when I asked him when or how long she was working for his company. He said he "didn't know" or "couldn't remember". What?

I about came unglued inside. What the h--- is he buying product stock for a woman who has no part in his business? I confronted him on a strictly business level the next day about how he is creating dependency for her business and that she should be making it on her own like the rest of us have to. He agreed.

Since then I have been watching for any contact, especially via vehicle tracking or cell phone calls.

When the emailed arrived, I wasn't surprised that she was back for more "help". But what did surprise me was that her email contained a LARGE image (beneath her name) along with a business logo image.

BUT, I couldn't view it because my software keylogger was not set to deliver attachments by default. Knowing the size of normal files sent via email and that this size seemed abnormal for regular business correspondence, I began to get curious.

Was it a personal portrait? Why would she send a picture so large in an ordinary business email? The email itself looked normal except that she quoted another company. The only reason the quote was suspicious to me was because the words "make the arrangements" jumped out at me.

That's when I decided I would need to go back to his office and change the keylogger settings so that I wouldn't miss out on what could be pertinent information in the future. I decided that when I got there, I would open his email program and try to view those images.

Now fast-forward to last night. After my husband left the office, as I stood there in disbelief near the fax machine, I went back to his computer, opened his email program and clicked on her email. The large picture was GONE!!!

Did his email program delete it automatically because it was large (less than 4MB)? Or did HE delete it because he didn't want a record of it on his computer?

Your guess is as good as mine.

Later that evening and before bedtime, my husband seemed somewhat disturbed. I tried to ease the tension between us with relaxed cheer (nothing particularly obvious). Neither one of us brought up the event at the office, nor the few words we exchanged about why we were both there at the same time.

For some reason it turned out to be a good Sexual Fulfillment (SF) night. We tentatively decided that our 1 day-a-week scheduled SF wasn't as enjoyable as our spontaneous 2-3 days-a-week SF. Perhaps we were both just RELEIVED to be done with the day's episode.

Could he be suspecting ME to be having a relationship? Or does he have something to HIDE and wants to know what I am doing at his office?

At least I don't have to go to his office anymore. The software keylogger has replaced the hardware keylogger to my delight!

I wanted to write about this because it helps me to get it off my mind. I cannot believe how awkward it felt to meet up with him like that. I really felt like my husband was checking up on me, which is not his style (or at least hasn't been for as long as I've known him).

I also feel more suspicious now than before. I feel like he gave me a reason.

Observing ... your writing is so good - you have me on the edge of my seat. I know this is your life, though and not "Mystery Theater," so I don't want you to think I'm insensitive to that.

I'm a little confused about the email and photo. With the email programs I've used, you can't delete an attachment or embedded photo on a received email - you just have to delete the whole email. If that's true for your H's email program, then I guess perhaps the photo was stripped off before it got to his inbox - but then why would the keylogger even register that it was there? Maybe your husband has an email program that allows deletion of attachments - for all I know, that's a feature that's common nowadays. I'm guessing he did delete it, from the evidence given. Did you check the Recycle Bin?

It is looking a lot like he has something to hide regarding this woman ... but was the text of her email not suspicious at all?

Good luck...although you seem to already have that in spades. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Observing:

Hello Again.

I would urge you to relax a little on the snooping. Once a week or so. Keep it discreet. You will find out if he is having an A. He is improving in his actions towards you, however. And remember what I said before, if he is in an A now, you will find out and need to break it up. If he was in an A, and it has been a while, then you can explore the ramifications of this new knowledge with your changed husband.

BE ready for the worst, but be hopeful for the best.

LG

Fiatflux,

Thank you for your kind words. You gave me a good laugh at about the time I needed one!

And I sure appreciate your help in brainstorming this "mystery". Obviously, I'm going to need MORE than my own brain to figure my husband out.

Well, it wasn't until I got back home that I remembered I could have looked in his recycle bin for that image! At the time, I was too stressed out to think normally and I had to hurry and place a Christmas order on his computer to keep my word.

I checked my keylogger reports to find that the software collects information when he runs "spell check" and "save as". I now realize I need to change the keylogger settings AGAIN so that the hidden character (Delete) reports as well.

I should be able to do this the next time we do "research" together on his computer. Then I'll know if he deletes an image or not in the future.

Until then, I'm stuck WITHOUT the knowledge of what actually happened!

Lousygolfer,

I hear your wisdom.

You know, I can't go back to his office for "copies" anymore. Once he's suspicious, that technique is OVER.

So I'll have to rely on our "research" times, if and when they happen, as he likes to check things out at his business while I start up his computer.

I'm trying to keep in mind that his behavior toward me is improving so much. I think we are getting along better than we have in years. He is now emailing me about his day's activities too.

Right now, I have to go because he is taking me out for dinner tonight (hopefully he doesn't do too much gawking, because I don't want to be ticked off right now). He's in great spirits lately.

That's one of the reasons he shocked me when he showed up at the office by surprise.

Okay, I'll try to find balance in all this.

I need to talk again.

My husband's gawking consequences, the other night during our romantic dinner out, indirectly made it into our bedroom – where I don’t like it.

You see, he didn't drink water during our meal to help wash down his food and ended up with uncontrollable hiccups immediately after, all the way home (long distance), and then the hiccups reoccurred a few minutes after Sexual Fulfillment began, so we had to start over, and then we finished before the hiccups reoccurred again.

It wasn't the hiccups that were the problem. It's WHY he had the hiccups.

To AVOID the hiccups, all he had to do was PAY MORE ATTENTION to his WIFE at dinner, when she commented that he hadn't touched his water during the meal, rather than trying to HIDE his frequent glancing of the young woman two seats ahead of him in full view!

Sick.

At least in some ways, I feel like I am getting more emotionally tolerable of my husband's "wandering eyes". I am now letting it "roll off my back" to help him feel more relaxed about the issue and to give him time to improve.

So I didn't mention anything.

I feel like I am getting better at COPING with it, even though most of this has come to my attention in the last couple years while our relationship began to IMPROVE, especially sexually (why look when you have it at home).

I keep telling myself that if he doesn't ACT ON IT, I really don't have a problem, right? A "just looking" husband can still be a WONDERFUL, faithful husband, right?

In that case, he could be a BETTER husband than most! Wow. I'm trying to convince myself of this.

In the past, I thought he was just looking at "exposed flesh" (not really his fault). But during the colder season, women are more fully dressed and I'm inadvertently finding that he hasn't made much progress in controlling himself.

He has recently confirmed, through his ACTIONS, that his favorite kind of women to keep an eye on is "young" women.

I've often wondered, how would I be able to tell if he's improving or not, since I am not always there to witness it? But the Lord has provided (realization) an uncomfortable "at home" occurrence that I can base his progress on.

One of his recent actions that SURPRISED me is the "eyeing" of one of our daughters. Thinking back, I now remember this has happened MANY times but I was just oblivious to it. He's become more obvious and now I notice.

Why does he look at one daughter and not the other? One daughter has a very appealing figure. BUT, she never flaunts it.

Instead, she is a modestly dressed virgin who is beautiful inside AND out. She turns a lot of heads at her youthful age. The men who look at her notice that she is not the typical girl and they seem to be interested in a very "respectful" way.

So when my husband looks at her inappropriately, it [color:"red"]BURNS MY SOUL[/color]! I am so DISGUSTED that he "eyes" our own daughter!

SICK.

I am convinced, that however innocent he thinks his "looking" is, he has an ADDICTION of some sort. I hate it and it ruins my respect for him.

But I can't mention this type of occurrence to him yet. Not only could it sour my daughter's relationship with him, but also, I don't want him to know all my SOURCES for evaluating his progress – or REGRESS, for that matter.

I don't like it when he pretends he's so GOOD, when he's not.

So now I'm back to the "honesty" issue.

In some ways, all I want to do is [color:"red"]CATCH HIM[/color]!!!

Then I can have something to base my conduct on.

Observing:

WOW.

He had dinner with you and his Hiccups occurred because instead of drinking water, he looked at another woman.

WRONG.

He got the hiccups because he got the hiccups. I can drink three glasses of water with a meal, just got to have it, my W thinks I drink to much water with a meal, and I still get hiccups occasionally. So that ain't the reason for the hiccups.

But he may have looked at another person during the meal, for how long and in comparision to the attention he showed you the rest of the meal?

IF he stared at her for 5 minutes during the meal and was with you for 2 hours, is that to much?

So I didn't mention anything. Your mistake.

I understand that you are a good looking woman, and you need him to concentrate on YOU! THAT is your emotional need. You want him to appreciate your physical attractivness and admiration. Not these other women. So change your tactics as I described earlier. When you see him looking past you at another women, distract him by returning his attention to you. Say something. Either about the fine china on the table, the weather, your kids, his day, whatever. I have also recommended that you start pointing out the disrespect that he shows you by engaging in a conversation along the lines of "What do you find attactive about the woman over there?" By doing this, you get the attention back on you, and if he learns that is the conversation he is going to have when he is busted in your presence looking at other women, he may continue to look, or stop, or most likely become more discreet. And, no matter what, his behavior starts to move towrds something more to your liking. And do not love-bust him here. Men like to look. They should be discreet, but if you LB him, he will probably get worse. If you lead him to a better place, conversation with you, then both issues are addressed. It may be uncomfortable at first, for both of you, but you certainly do not like his behavior now....

And for this:

He has recently confirmed, through his ACTIONS, that his favorite kind of women to keep an eye on is "young" women.

I don't spend much time looking at "Old women." Nor "Young Women" especially if they ain't good looking. See the point? Some men may be attracted to older women, larger women, well muscled women, thin women, well endowed women, etc. IT takes all types. And women look at men the same way. Buff has got to be better then slovenly.

But, you see it as an comparision to you. By him looking at these other women, he is making an unfavorable comparison to you. If his wandering eyes lingered on a women who was older, larger, and uglier that you, you would be content, right? Or maybe you just might think, "Is that what he really likes?" And then embark on a process to convert yourself into that type of women? I do not think so.

Remember, you are beautiful as you are. You are married, and your Husband still appreciates you. He does appreciate other women, but just like Clint Eastwood casting himself in the role of the photographer in the "Bridges of Madison County" A role he was clearly 25 years to old for. We all want to be desired by the younger and more beautiful It's like High school. We just can't do anything about it.

Now lets address your thoughts about your daughter:

MAYBE YOUR HUSBAND IS PROUD OF YOUR DAUGHTER, AND THE BEAUTIFUL PERSON SHE IS BECOMING, JUST LIKE YOU ARE NOTICING!

YOU Are projecting lustful thoughts unto your H. That is extremely disrespectful.

DO You have any reason to think that he may act inappropriatly with her? Sure you can watch for something that might be, but do not create it if it doesn't exist. Remember, you describe her in glowing terms as well. I would look upon a daughter like that with great satisfaction. And admiration. My son is 14, and my heart bursts with pride with the type of young man he is becoming. Sometimes I can't help my gaze when he is making me proud. Your thoughts are pure. Your husbands thoughts are lustful. That is completly and utterly shocking to me the disrespect you show your husband when you treat the same reactions that you both are having in such a different manner.

And I will finish with your closing line:

Then I can have something to base my conduct on.

This line sums up all the above. IF you can CATCH HIM? Your conduct should be based on his actions, and what you KNOW, not what you project he might do! Start projecting that he is a good person, and doing the things that respect that, and you will see those behaviors, instead of always searching for the negatives...

I know you are here to vent, and to learn. I am not trying to 2x4 to much here. But you have to adjust the lens on this picture. And only you can do that.

Lousygolfer,

Let's look at this through a fair lens.

Being a man who likes appreciation, how would you feel if your wife spent 30% of your once-a-month romantic dinner TALKING to another man about your deficiencies as a husband?

I can imagine how you would feel.

The problem for me is that I have a Passive/Aggressive husband. They can't decide on women. They don't want the attachment.

So what do they (passive/agressive men) want? Or what do you think they want vs what they really need?

L.

Observing:

Why would you let him?

I wouldn't let me spouse do that, yet you did. Sometimes you just have to let them know they are wrong.

In this case, he was.

But that is not how you described the meal. You said he was "looking" at another woman. Not talking to her, nor telling her your deficeincies. (sp?)

So, let us know what is going on so we can address it.

LG

Orchid,

Your question is very timely, and a breath of fresh air for me. Thank you.

Off the top of my head, and being quite candid, here are some answers:

I think he wants to make sure no one takes advantage of him (although I have seen him take advantage of others).

I think he has a strong emotional need for sex but doesn't want to commit his entire self, for fear of being vulnerable to a woman.

I think he likes having a wife for understandable reasons, but keeps her at a distance (not too much intimacy).

As described by a psychologist:


I think he feels safe with me being his wife (kitchen, laundry, bedroom needs), but not necessarily in being his total friend. I don't know that he really trusts ANYONE for that. These are behaviors I believe he has developed from his youth.

I think he wants to "receive", but doesn't necessarily want to "give".

I think he wants to be in control, but in ways that keep his motives hidden.

I think he likes to sit on the sidelines of life, enjoying secret pleasures (which reminds me of voyeurism, although without the direct sexual gratification), but not giving a fair part of himself in the process.

In the last couple years, I've begun to think that there could be another woman involved as well. Then he would be a cakeman. What does a cakeman want?

Lousygolfer,


Yes, and now it's been taken care of (see update below).

By acknowledging that this type of talking was wrong, I hope you're not implying that a wife has no right to hurt her husband by talking, but that a husband has the perfect right to hurt his wife by looking.

In my previous post, I was trying to give you a comparison of what it would be like had the episode occurred in YOUR shoes.

In other words, for a husband, the problem would play itself out by the wife TALKING to make her husband feel bad. For a wife, the problem would play itself out by the husband LOOKING to make his wife feel bad. Either way, one spouse hurts the other according to the other spouse's emotional needs.

You and I know that men and women are different in their needs. So my husband's way of hurting me would be different than your wife's way of hurting you.

But the pain is the same. The hurt feelings are the same.

Observing,
I haven't read this entire thread.

But I do want to say that, smack dab in the middle of my FWH's affair, we spent a lot of quality time together. And he told me he loved me during SF.

So, don't let that fool you.

Also, I used to be quite tolerant of my H if he looked at another woman. Sometimes I would even point them out to him. For his 40th birthday, I even got him a stripper!!

That's when I trusted him implicitly. Now, all that stuff is out the window. I mean, OUT THE WINDOW. I would hope that he wouldn't dare look at someone else now, not after all we've been through.

Things have changed – drastically.

We put the MB marriage course, our plans to add a bathroom onto the house, and the research of job opportunities - all ON HOLD.

Everything, including sex and affection (except for what the children normally see), has come to a SCREECHING HALT and now hinges on whether or not my husband wants to be sincere with me.

How did this happen? I just answered my husband fairly ("I feel...") when he asked about my thoughts last weekend.

I did what a psychologist advised to do when dealing with a Passive/Aggressive husband: straight talk, set limits, drop it and move on.

I felt I could no longer betray my feelings, even though by sharing them, I could be unfairly BLAMED for the indirect cause of infidelity (possible weakness for him) in the future.

So now my husband knows that I feel he has been INSINCERE about his love for me and his want for other women – even after his confession. He knows that I don't feel right having sex with him when I don't feel like he loves me.

He said that he doesn't feel that way and concluded that since we both feel differently (doesn't matter if improvements could be made), we are at a "stalemate".

What's with the stalemate? Is our relationship a tug-of-war? If so, then I'd rather drop the rope. So I guess I did. I just couldn't find it in myself to "pull" anymore.

That's sort of how we ended up with NO SEX. After we agreed to no sex, then we agreed to NO AFFECTION (he insisted) since I don't want him to have to give to me without receiving what he wants in return.

I would think a loving husband would be more concerned about what his wife's needs were than to be REBELLIOUS over something as basic as honesty, especially after he knows it is my most important EN and one that I can't live happily without.

I tried to explain that to restore my trust (which I admitted I had lost) I would like him to be sincere with me about his lustful struggles and how he is trying to overcome them.

But he thinks that by bringing up the subject AT ALL (this is only the second time I brought it up since his confession, and he's counting), I want to "rub it in" or "dwell on the past".

As a response, he said he would be doing some "soul searching". He said he doesn't know how long that will take.

It hasn't even been 5 days since Sexual Fulfillment for us, but he is acting like it's over for life. I don't know how he can earn my trust back if he doesn't want to display any love for me. I guess I have to play out his Passive/Aggressive behavior.

I feel at peace. I have been sincere with him. I have poured out my heart in the last 3.75 months of my version of Plan A, and now is the time for fairness in our relationship.

I NO LONGER worry about whether or not he's being sincere with me or whether or not he is wanting other women more than his own wife – in front of his own wife.

Because of our current relationship status, I feel he is no longer asking intimacy of me without giving it in return. At least our relationship is fair now - even if that means no true intimacy at all.

I have just taken the HUGEST RISK in my marriage: to let him go.

Now I will see his true colors.

Anyone who uses P/A behaviour uses it for two reasons:

1. To do as they please and avoid the consequences.
2. To remain in the role of a victim, because if you are a victim then nothing is your fault and you don't deserve any consequences.

Same reasons as a sneaky ten-year-old child, which is where P/As remain emotionally.

Observing, I probably already pointed out my sig lines to you - just don't have time to check back right now. Did you say you found a therapist who understands P/A behaviour and is willing to deal with it? Remember, P/As will just defeat and sabotage a counselor the same way they defeat and sabotage you.
Mulan

Rltraveled,

Thanks for your support and for sharing your understanding of this behavior!

At this time in my life, I KNOW I am not imagining things. I just don't know how far it has gone.

I want to trust my husband, but he has been wrong in other important ways which leads me to think that I am not seeing the "true him" all the time.

Sometimes I feel like my husband is so sincere, real and true (like I want him to be, or like he wants me to think he is).

Other times, I feel like he has turned a corner and I don't know him at all. It just depends on if there's another attractive woman in the vicinity or not.

Funny, that's when his ears don't seem to work anymore.

Mulan,

It's great to hear from you again!


I bought a book and I have been reading a lot from different therapists.

We have yet to get to the stage of counseling, which may be our only option in the end. He needs to hear things from somebody else, not me.


That's why I had to "drop the rope". I just can't fight anymore. He can do what he wants. He's free.

With all due respect, Observing - that ain't gonna make one ounce of difference to him. The whole world could tell him the same thing and it just wouldn't matter.

The only thing that WILL matter is him finding out first-hand how damaging his behaviour really is and how much he has to lose.

I am reposting this for you from the "In Recovery" thread. The books you have may or may not be helpful. The two links below were enormously helpful to me and I would strongly encourage you to read the entire MB thread as you have time. There is a gold mine of info there from several MB posters who have been dealing with P/A spouses for a long time. They made ALL the difference to me.

*****************************************************
I spent six years on MB and got nowhere until I understood what I was really dealing with. Then things changed almost overnight. The MB principles could not and did not work until the passive/aggressive behavior was addressed, and THEN they could work.

My #1 EN is honesty and openness. He is P/A. How do ya think THAT was working?!

This is what I said to WH once I understood that the real problem in our relationship was the P/A behavior and his belief that I was trying to "control" him:

First, I truly and seriously acknowledged that he really did feel "controlled" when I wanted to use POJA. He would snarl, "That feels like control!" I said, "I know it does. I know that's how it makes you feel. (NO SARCASM! I REALLY MEANT THIS!) And I also know that there is nothing I can say that will change your mind on that. I can only show you how POJA works by trying it on some things. If you want to try it, you can let me know."

Second, I truly and seriously acknowledged that I did NOT want to control him in any way. I wanted a WILLING partner, not a child to control or an animal on a leash. And if he did not want to be a willing partner to me, the last thing I wanted was to keep on pushing to be a partner to me, since I really did NOT want to control him.

Therefore, I would no longer expect to go anywhere or do anything at HIS events - you know, things he plans or wants to do - because that obviously made him feel stuck with me and obligated to bring me along (and therefore controlled.) If he wanted to keep on going to movies and ball games and on trips without me, that was fine, because I really did NOT want to control him this way and I would MUCH rather find something else to do without him. (AND I MEANT THIS).

Furthermore, I would no longer expect him to show up at MY events, either. (I am a novelist and sometimes go to book signings, conferences, conventions, etc. He was always invited and I wanted him there, but at the last one he dragged his butt to the event and behaved so horribly to me that I swore I'd never invite him again.) I told him I'd learned my lesson from that particular event. If my inviting him made him feel "controlled," in that he felt obligated to show up or I'd be upset, then I did NOT want him to even consider going. I'd go alone and have a perfectly fine time without him. (AND I MEANT THIS.)

I cannot tell you what a difference this has made. We are going to Disneyland next week, just the two of us.

The weekend after that, I have another conference where I am doing a writers' workshop and speaking on several panels as well as going to the parties Saturday night. I simply told him when it was and that I would be at such-and-such hotel all day Saturday and Sunday (staying in a room I paid for on Saturday night.) I said nothing at all about him going, just politely informed him that that's where I would be if anyone needed to get hold of me. And I really did not expect him to go. If he hadn't, I fully intended to go alone and enjoy the event and just let him do what he wanted - and maybe wonder about what I was doing! But he has insisted on coming along, wants to know what he should wear, etc.

The difference is like day and night. And it happened when I just suddenly and completely dropped the reins and let the horse run off if it wanted to. But guess what! The critter ran for a bit, and then circled around and came right back home.

You can do the same. There are no guarantees that it will work. It relies on the fact that you ARE willing to walk away from the marriage if he cannot and will not stop the P/A behavior. But he can't push on you if you aren't pushing on him - and THAT is what makes all the difference.

I was not able to walk away before I understood P/A behaviour. But I could now, since I DO understand it. And boy has THAT ever made a difference.

Here's the tough love part. Your H is right. You ARE trying to control him. You ARE still trying to push and pressure him into being an honest non-P/A man. And that will NEVER, EVER, work.

Try doing what I did - try telling your H that you DON'T want to control him and if that's how your actions make him feel (and they do!), then you will STOP ALL OF THEM RIGHT NOW. Thank him for letting you know, since you really did not understand this before (and you didn't). (Yes, I said that too, and I meant it!!!)

Then dress up nice, get your purse and go out alone for a while. Go out shopping or to a movie or whatever. You will be amazed at what this approach can do.

You have absolutely nothing to lose by doing this and absolutely everything to gain, even if it's just gaining back your own life.

**********************************************

And one more on what you can do about it:

I want to emphasize that it is the simple act of Calling Them On Their Behaviour **in itself** that is so effective.

"Calling Them" just means that you look them straight in the eye and calmly tell them that you KNOW their actions are deliberate and ARE meant to keep you off-balance and out of the way so the P/A can do what they please. You don't buy excuses or bend yourself into a pretzel trying to make sense out of nonsense anymore.

To put it bluntly, you start calling "bullsh*t" on their P/A behaviour.

Again, here's an example:

Picture somebody sneaking around in the dark and stealing your stuff. You can't see them and you can't prove it, but you KNOW damn well they're stealing your stuff even though they vehemently proclaim their innocence and insist you're crazy to think they're stealing your stuff.

You spend ages trying to talk them out of stealing your stuff and telling them how much it hurts you when they steal your stuff, but this makes no difference and they go right on stealing your stuff.

So, you try a different tactic:

The next time you feel sure they're stealing your stuff, you turn a glaring spotlight on them and get on a bullhorn saying, "YOU ARE STEALING MY STUFF. I KNOW YOU ARE BECAUSE I CAN SEE YOU DOING IT AND I AM NOT BLIND. THIS IS RUINING OUR RELATIONSHIP AND WE WILL NEVER HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE STEALING MY STUFF. HAVE A NICE DAY."

Then you GO AWAY and leave them standing there in the glaring spotlight holding your bag of stolen stuff, with nobody to blame or argue with but themselves.

You don't stand there and wait for them to apologize, or agree with you, or make amends, or anything else. You GO AWAY AND LEAVE THEM THERE HOLDING THE BAG ALL ALONE.

That's it. That's all. For 99.999 % of people, just confronting them in under that glaring spotlight IS enough to make them stop - believe it or not! And for the .001% who won't, well, you would never have been attracted to one of those in the first place.

It's the confrontations **in and of themselves** that are effective. That's it. That's all you have to do. The confrontation is an enormous boundary in itself, as long as you are consistent about it and refuse to be talked out believing your own perceptions any longer.

Mulan

Okay, I went back and read through your thread again. Sorry - we've talked about this before and I just didn't remember right away.

Anyway, it strikes me that your husband's gawking at other women is in itself a Passive/Aggressive act.

It's Passive because it seems harmless. He can say, "But I'm not DOING anything - I'm just looking - all men look - I can't help it - etc etc etc"

It's Aggressive because he knows very well that it's insulting and disrespectful and hurtful to you when he does this. It's a button he can push that will provoke you and bring about your anger and irritation. It allows him to be your victim whenever you object to his "harmless" behaviour.

And it works, too, doesn't it?

P/As are only comfortable when They Win and You Lose. That's why POJA is out of the question for them, because even "win-win" feels like losing to them. If you're winning, he must be losing somewhere!

So, they like nothing better than to get their Winning Fix by doing something they know will provoke you and make you angry and upset. And they get their Victim Fix by being the victim of your anger and irritation at their P/A behaviour. This way, they can reassure themselves that they are still in charge and you remain off-balance and powerless.

In your husband's case, he's found that gawking at other women in front of you lets him do what he wants to do (stare at women), get his Winning Fix (you are powerless to stop him) and get his Victim Fix (you get angry and irritated by his rudeness and disrespect.)

Works perfect, don't it?

Have you ever just gotten up and left when he starts gawking? I mean, to the point of calling a cab to get home if you need to?
Mulan

Mulan,

Your last post really helped me fit the pieces of own my puzzle together.


So, so true!


Oh, I had tears come out of my eyes, I LAUGHED so hard!

Yeah, it works pretty well doesn't it? I've been such a FOOL!


Hmm…maybe I should try this. I think I've got the courage. And he's got the jaw to drop. Plus, I can use HIS money to pay for it. I could have so much FUN with this!

Whoa! What a roller coaster ride!

A lot has happened in the last few weeks. I think we are stabilizing now.

I spent the last couple weeks in an ultra Plan A with NO Love Busters whatsoever, except one:

I got up and walked out of the room as my husband laughed at the possible demise of his cousin's business since they were featured in a popular trade magazine and therefore, according to a business acquaintance, they should go out of business in a couple years.

This happened only minutes after he confided that he had lost a profitable order from one of his favorite customers toward the end of the day.

I wasn't about to say anything since that would start a Passive/Aggressive round of boomerangs, but I wasn't going to sit there and enjoy the ruin of my neighbor either.

He was floored. He sat at the table for a while thinking about it. First time I ever did that. The bathroom was a nice refuge for me.

The reason for an ultra Plan A was because the day after Christmas, I truly realized (gift from the Lord) that nearly everything my husband said or did about our relationship was intended (subconscious or not) to pull me into his "boxing ring".

I just didn't want to climb in anymore. I stopped, even if it meant we couldn't build our relationship.

I just felt like the more we communicated, the worse our relationship got. Have you ever tried walking in quicksand? Neither have I, but this must be what it feels like.

In essence, I treated him like a Wayward Husband (whether he is or not) since I did NO relationship talk at all, only small talk. I did whatever it took to look good, smell good, sound good, and feel good. I kept busy at things that made the kids and me happy.

Then finally yesterday, he broke the ice and introduced our relationship talk.

My heart pounded, though I remained relaxed and confident.

I only asked a couple questions to make sure we understood each other, knowing that anything I say about my feelings could be the next "boxing round".

We agreed that we were "on the same page" in our relationship and that he needed to earn my trust (as he correctly put it).

After that, I calmly added that I was "burnt out on fighting" and that I didn't want to fight anymore. I told him this so that he would know why I wasn't as conversational as usual.

I felt better. There was a long silence.

But I really wanted to let him know that he shook my trust when he left for his doctor visit last week but didn't respond to my text message during his trip (out of town).

The last time he went to the doctor, he started the text messaging and I liked having the communication even though he was just enthusiastically planning SF for that evening.

This time, it wasn't until after he got back to work (in town) that he responded to my SECOND text message asking him if he got my FIRST text message (wishing him a healthy visit).

I was particularly frustrated (he didn't know it) because I had failed to set the vehicle tracker correctly to get information about his trip. So the text messaging was the only tool (besides his computer) that I had for monitoring that day.

It spooked me that he didn't respond. Why not? Oh no, was he gawking too much? Did he go to the doctor or was he somewhere else? Who knows?

I just feel I have to continue what I've been doing the last couple weeks (no relationship talk), because it seems to be working. Isn't that awful for a happily married husband and wife?

Now let's REWIND to the couple weeks BEFORE Christmas and you'll know why I can't talk to my husband about our relationship.

Both weeks I was getting emotional. I was beginning to split at the seams. We hit our rock bottom (so far), but at least GOOD came out of it.

You see, in order to get the truth out of my husband, I have to PULL it out of him. I really don't want to do that anymore though. That was too much of a rollercoaster.

Here's what happened:

WEEK 1:

I nearly burst into tears during Sexual Fulfillment (SF).

Even though my husband GLARED at me for the first couple days that week, he voluntarily increased his Affection toward me to the point of bringing home flowers for our bedroom by the weekend.

I was very pleased with his efforts. It was very heart warming. So I initiated SF as a way of saying "thank you" for the flowers.

But the real relief came because I thought I had just completed an entire day's worth of vehicle tracking, which, to my delight, showed nothing suspicious, although I may have actually ended the real-time tracking too soon, because he called 5 minutes before dinner and said he would be late (1.5 hours).

Uh!

We enjoyed our weekend together, even though I was still saddened by his need for secretly "checking out" another woman while we were visiting with friends on Sunday.

He noticed the change in me, so after he failed to get me to accuse him, we calmly conversed about the subject, and then HE decided to go back to NO SF until he's not "hurting" me anymore.

The next day's email from my husband seemed promising:

"Thanks…for being open with me yesterday about your feelings, and at the same time being as kind as I could ask for."

WEEK 2:

I did something I've never done before.

Probably because of how important it was to me, and how the stress had built up.

It all started when our family portrait arrived. With it came our romantic portrait that we just happened to have taken because the moment allowed for it during the photography session.

I absolutely loved the romantic portrait. It really touched my heart. I could see that it was meant to be.

Not only was it a new beginning (good timing) for our relationship, but also I couldn't believe how PERFECTLY it resembled our candid, unique engagement portrait, except that we were a generation older.

When my husband saw it, he responded the same way he did when the proofs came in about a month earlier – no enjoyment, silence.

Well, that SET ME OFF - a second time (first time I brushed it off).

But I didn't blow right away.

I waited until a quiet moment of the evening to tear the portrait in half (right down the middle) and insert it into the same envelope that would carry the family portrait to my husband's office.

If he didn't like our portrait, I wanted him to know how I felt about it.

Basically, by not showing any enjoyment over our portrait, he was telling me that he didn't want our relationship. So I SHOWED him what that LOOKS LIKE on paper!

And I was feeling pretty vindicated about it.

I expected an email the next morning – and got one. Amazingly, instead of asking me what that was all about, he used the torn portrait to "free" himself of our relationship.

I challenged him for "giving up" on our marriage so easily, without even an inkling of a fight (or any questions).

Later that afternoon, my keylogger report showed me that he was trying to get his email password changed through his ISP. The last time he attempted this was right after we had both met up in his office that one day.

After hurling fire at me for a couple days through email, but not being successful in changing the topic (I kept full composure knowing that I had to reverse the role of victim and abuser in his mind even though I chose the worst possible time to do it), he replied that everything he has recently done for me is "not enough".

Poor him! Not enough?

Well then, I would be happy to inform him of what's really NOT ENOUGH.

I gallantly replied by giving him my own list of what's "not enough" for HIM. I sprinkled it with LUSCIOUS comparison details of all the women he's wanted for 23 years of our marriage. I also used his own words to explain that every time he wants another woman over me, it's the "worst day of my life" as his wife.

Do you know what happened? He understood.

I knew I would get his attention by explaining WHY other women have such a place in his MARRIED heart. He didn't think I had a clue. But I do.

I might even want to give the list (reads like a poem) a name: The Song of Solomon Reversed!

He said he was "sorry" for hurting me with his "addiction" and asked me what it would take to "prove" his love for me. I briefly said that besides his actions, I would like him to let me know about his struggles and what he is doing to overcome them. This would help me to build trust in him again.

I also said that I would like him to replace the diamond that turned up MISSING from his wedding ring during our first couple years of marriage.

Because of his lack of concern over the lost diamond all these years, how was I to know that he didn't really gouge it out and then act like it popped out and fell down a crack in the car seat?

This has become more of a concern to me lately since he has this tendency to slide his wedding ring off and on as we speak about our relationship. Really bugs me.

He replied that his struggles were "daily" and that it was "too personal" for him to talk about, and that changing his behavior could take a lifetime (how convenient), but that he was exposed to "the worst kind" of pornography as a boy and his adolescence was further ruined by hanging around the wrong crowd.

After a hole burned through my heart upon hearing about the ruin of a precious child (him), I explained to him that I believe we married each other "as is" and that I love him and that I don't hold his past against him. I only want us to leave bad behavior behind and have a good marriage together.

Also, I didn't feel the need to cry anymore. My emotions began to stabilize instantly. I felt like I was beginning to understand a very important part of him – even if there was more to find out.

I just hope he wasn't trying to say, "I can't help myself, so please, hand me another bottle, will you"? I am of the understanding that if you are truly sorry for something, you stop doing it.

After I asked, he said he hadn't participated in the degradation of women (pornography) since we've been married and added that I am his one and only.

I want to believe him, but he has already lied to me too many times. I need more than words now.

I have yet to see him make a move on the missing diamond. And I'm willing to bet he didn't put the old pictures back into his office like I requested while we wait for the new replacement portrait to arrive.

At least now he knows HOW he can earn my trust back. And that's where we are today.

Just for the record, here is what happened on Weeks 3 and 4:

WEEK 3:

By Christmas Eve, things were going great.

We even found some private time to ourselves for some "fun" midday Sexual Fulfillment in our bedroom while the kids kept busy with Christmas preparations. How sweet, huh?

But what happened on Christmas morning?

He verbally expressed his dissatisfaction with the Christmas gift I bought him. Apparently, he thought our daughter picked it out. But she didn't. I did. Even if she did, that was completely uncalled for and not like him.

Actually, that didn't really bother me.

If he didn't like it, he didn't like it. Apparently, I just bought the wrong thing, even though I thought he said he wanted this type of clothing several months ago.

Too bad we couldn't have picked out our gifts together, like he said we would do, on our last dinner out. How romantic that would have been! We haven't ever done that.

But he insisted that we didn't need to make reservations after I suggested it, and therefore we lost our shopping time by WAITING at a popular restaurant which happened to be having their busiest day of the year.

What really bothered me was his response to the jewelry gift I picked out for myself.

I don't like the idea of doing our own shopping, but somehow this practice has developed over the years, especially since he waits until last minute to do any shopping because of his busy business season. When he found out I had taken care of our gifts, he expressed utter relief.

I felt sick after opening my gift. Why wasn't he happy to participate in giving me a gift that I really liked and that was purposely kept within our Christmas budget?

He just didn't say much and then left the room.

What's new, right?

Breathe.

Why is he so IMPOSSIBLE?

I guess I still had some volatile emotions left in me.

Later on Christmas day, I secretly threw my Christmas gift into the bushes and confirmed to myself that I would replace the gift with something 10 times better – and with my own money. This would remind me that he is NOT going to ruin my life, or my happiness.

The day after Christmas, upon receiving my husband's emailed excuse (half-hearted apology for his actions), which had the potential of starting a whole new round of P/A boomerangs, I decided that responding with relationship talk was not healthy for our relationship or for our family.

It was also the same morning that I read ALL ABOUT his sexual attitudes, which turn out to be quite selfish, in the book on dealing with P/A behavior.

Our children had graciously and joyfully carried us through the Christmas season and I wasn't going to let them down.

That's when my ultra Plan A started…and continues today.

WEEK 4:

With the previous week's realization of how my husband tries to turn himself into MY victim to live out his Passive/Aggressive fears, I was able to stay out of his "boxing ring".

He seemed confused.

For example, how could I be genuinely happy without engaging in ANY relationship talk or debates whatsoever?

How could I be content and silent when he let the front windshield fog up to the point that our children voiced concerns over dangerous driving and wanted to know why I wouldn't say something about it?

How could I still be happy and not mention a word about his behavior when he sulked and pouted ALL DAY while we joined the children in volunteer work for our community?

How could I carry lighthearted conversation with our children at the table when he looked at me with facial expressions that appeared to be hatred?

How could I not complain, when we did carry conversation, that he burped and yawned like a hippopotamus every few minutes for an entire hour?

How could I not disagree with him when he said something to the kids that he KNOWS I would object to?

I was not confused.

I had confidence that as long as I didn't participate in his P/A behaviors, he could not blame me for ANYTHING. No more "victim". No more "abuser".

It seemed to be working.

On New Year's night, after an entire week of NO Sexual Fulfillment, he crawled into bed and held me for a long time, saying that it was comforting to him. Afterwards, he kissed me good-night and patiently turned over to go to sleep.

I did end up reconsidering SF. Amazingly, that night, I felt more APPRECIATED than I have ever felt in our entire marriage. He didn't tell me he loved me until his email the next morning though.

I wonder if I made a mistake. He didn't deserve SF for the way he was treating me. And his refusal to text message me a couple days later at his doctor visit proved it.

I considered it a deposit in his Love Bank though, to which his next email confirmed:

"Thank you honey for all your patience with me, you have a very loving and forgiving heart."

FAST FORWARD to now…

I don't know all that is going through his mind.

I do know that recently, when I entered more preset text messages into his phone with his approval, he stood less than 10 feet away appearing to be looking at Christmas cards, not letting me or his phone out of sight until I was finished.

Oh, that spooked me. Why the surveillance?

But I think (unless there are other means I am unaware of) I now have him COVERED (with snooping).

Not only did I upgrade to real-time vehicle tracking, but also I had to find a way to collect data from his cell phone since I have NO access to his company billing, NO access to a SIM card that doesn't exist on his phone, and only a data cable to connect forensic software ($900.00 OUCH!) to his brand/version of phone.

I may have been ripped off by the software company. They claim they surpass their competition because the software collects "deleted" data, but I'm not seeing the data that I deleted on his phone. I may reconsider the charge after consulting with the company.

I would rather spend the $900.00 on a diamond that I can wear on my other finger if my husband doesn't replace his, as a testimony to working on our marriage – with or without his contribution.

Also, my husband must have finally got his email password changed.

His email stopped working because the connection settings had been changed. He explained how his ISP manager had to come in through a remote connection to get his email working again.

I didn't check the keylogger report for any setting adjustments, but he said, "I don't know" when I asked him how the settings changed.

Ah, but it was so nice watching the general process (don't have keyboard functions yet) through the keylogger reports.

I can't tell you how many hours I have spent spying, putting data together (forensics is not easy), trying to sort out and document our relationship, reading about relationships and checking out maps.

My husband doesn't know it, but I have spent COUNTLESS hours on him!

I plan to continue in my ULTRA Plan A and wait for him to change our relationship for the better. After all, we can't do it without his help.

Something else I might want to mention:

My husband has been seeing a doctor because he's been having unexplained and frequent "lightheadedness".

The interesting thing is that this has never happened to him before with his good health until the very week I started my version of Plan A in August 2006.

He will now be seeing a Neurologist to get a second opinion. There was no first opinion from his doctor who explains everything to him very well.

My gut feeling is that this is related to "relationship stress". Plus I think lack of sleep from stress and/or SF may contribute.

Presently, SF has been occurring only about once a week, so it's not like he's being overly taxed, but the lightheadedness continues.

Thanks for listening.

I'm perplexed.

How do I know the difference between a "flat out lie" and the "truth"?

After our breakthrough conversation last night, my husband didn't look and feel relieved like I was. Instead, he seemed saddened and had a somewhat unsure (maybe even worried) look on his face as we prepared our quick, near midnight dinner together. We were both EXHAUSTED. I wonder if that was just him or if there was a reason for it.

Here's what happened:

Our relationship talk was started by him. He could see that I wasn't going to allow myself to be turned into the bad guy by sharing my feelings with him. And that if we were going to work on our relationship (after no SF all week), he was going to have to do some fair INPUT. We ended up talking right through dinner and the kids had to put themselves to bed that night.

I asked plenty of questions to clarify where the conversation was going. We fruitfully got to the point where I had to REPEAT my needs about what he could do to earn my trust and explained how this would help me not to be suspicious that there was someone else.

He told me that he hasn't even come close to having a relationship with anyone besides me since we have been married and went further to say that he would stand before a Priest and put his hand on a Bible and tell me again if that's what I needed to believe him.

I burst into painful tears as I asked him what took him so long to reassure me that there was no one else after I had expressed months ago that I felt I was not the only woman in our marriage. He got up, closed the bedroom door and that's when the real conversation began.

The rest was almost a blur for me and I lost some of my composure. Now he knows that I have been completely suspicious of him, but still doesn't know that I am snooping on him.

He began to question whether or not Dr. Harley's books have been causing these suspicions.

I told him that my suspicions began BEFORE I read anything from Dr. Harley. In fact, it was because I was suspicious of him that I found the MB website in the first place.

I explained how my suspicious began later summer (2006) and SNOWBALLED during that fall and through the Christmas season. I explained how my imagination has been going wild because of his seemingly secretive behavior and that as far as I was concerned his behavior resembled that of an adulterer.

In no time at all, he told me he understood why I have had these suspicions (confirming the fact that they are NOT my imagination).

To help him understand how to earn back my trust, I tried explaining what transparency means and encouraged him to read what Dr. Harley has to say about building a good (suspicious free) marriage.

Later in the conversation, he surprised me a little by asking me if I have had a relationship with anyone since we've been married.

I looked at him (although he didn't keep eye contact with me) and waited for him to complete his judgmental ("don't get upset"…) question before I replied with a confident and reassuring "No". Then I added that just because I answered "no" doesn't mean that I haven't been approached by another man.

He asked me if I was approached by another man and if so, what had happened (explained in a previous post). I answered all his questions truthfully.

Later, my husband commented on how deeply HURT he was about what our son had said about the same man who tried to take his wife away, "He was like a father to me". I tried to put into perspective that this man's "interest" and "conversation" is what appealed to our son.

Now my husband and I are emailing each other about our relationship again. If things don't work out that way, then I can go back to ultra Plan A (no relationship talk) until we can converse again.

In the meantime, I would like to know if this sounds right or do many adulterers ask for Bibles to swear on?

I do realize that an adulterer is not going to tell the truth under those conditions anyway and that what a spouse needs is confirming actions, not words.

Sadly adulterors swear on bibles, their kids lives, and anything else that is convincing.

You are correct. Watch the actions, not the words.

Believer,

I know you're right.

I am going to do my best to find consistency in my husband's behavior, giving him a fair chance in case he is telling the truth, and at the same time verify his actions with my spying tools. Only then can I let go and believe him.

In the meantime, we seem to be getting along better now. So this is good news.

Update…

I have been expecting a suspect email to show up (keylogger report) on my husband's computer.

Yesterday it came.

Only this time there were no images (same suspected woman as previously posted).

There was nothing suspicious about it. EXCEPT that I was particularly expecting it since my husband will be planning to go out of town this weekend or the next weekend. The last time he received an email from this suspected woman was on a Monday, 2 weeks before his last monthly trip.

He always gets his haircut before his monthly trip, which now concerns me. Why does this monthly trip (errands, shopping) warrant a nice hair cut but our dinner outs and other functions do not?

So I've been watching. If he receives an email from this woman once a month (for months and months) and it always arrives on a Monday, 2 weeks before he travels out of town for this Saturday trip, I may begin to piece something together.

We'll see.

Hmmm. What did the email say?

Believer,


Not much. She always seems to be a "damsel in distress" asking for help, though.

That's supposedly why my husband bought some product stock for her self-employed business in the past, which I objected to afterwards (previous post).

The emails are just about her problems with shipping and equipment that she can't seem to work out for herself – as "knowledgeable" as my husband claimed she is.

This is what I have begun to imagine, even though it could be far fetched and completely untrue:

This woman emails my husband to indicate a time frame for getting together. The email has a business appearance and comes from a business woman, so he is NOT GUILTY for participating in an inappropriate relationship – especially using a business computer. He gets a hair cut before he leaves for his monthly day-long trip, and parks in a parking lot where he should be parked in case anyone recognizes his vehicle. He meets up with this woman and gets into her car and they go somewhere else together. She pays for whatever communication tools, hotels or meals it takes for them to have a relationship. He never gets caught.

I try not to think this way, really.

I can't remember if I mentioned this in an earlier post, but one time I noticed that my husband smelled differently after coming home from one of these day trips. I instinctively searched my mind as to what building he was in to acquire that particular smell (not necessarily perfume). I just about blurted out my discovery, but caught myself, as I would not have been able to explain my suspicions to the children who were present, especially if I was wrong.

Since then, I've realized that you don't want your spouse to know that you may be recognizing signs of possible cheating in order to gather more information on it. So these suspicions have been ADDING UP in my head.

The change in his behavior toward me when he travels concerns me most of all.

He often comes home later than he expects. At least now he calls and lets me know, depending on the trip.

Sometimes I don't know about a trip until after it happens (hair cuts, accounting meeting). Or I do know about a trip, but not all of the plans he had for the trip (making another significant stop that I don't find out about until later).

Those are the kinds of things that have been building up my suspicions.

Believer,

Oh, and I forgot to mention. I inspected his underwear from last month's day trip and found what I think are 2 cat hairs toward the back. We have a cat, but we rarely let it in the house or in any vehicle. So where would he be sitting to collect these cat hairs while on his day trip?

I plan to send the underwear in for DNA testing. I just haven't been able to get myself to do it thinking that this couldn't be for real. I wish I would just DO IT and see if there are any answers. Maybe I can send it in with his next trip's underwear and verify both at the same time.

First I need some replacement underwear so that all his underwear doesn't turn up missing!

It's hard to know. Did he reply to the woman?

The cat hair sounds suspicious. But did you do a sperm test on the underwear?

Believer,


No, I haven't found any email replies by him in the keylogger reports, to my relief.


What I mean by DNA testing is professional testing for semen and/or vaginal fluids and then if present, further DNA testing to verify.

The apparent cat hairs caught my eye and are the reason why I kept the underwear for testing. I understand that hairs and things are important in forensics, so why not verify.

P.S. I'm going to be out of a connection area for about 24 hours, so I won't be able to post for a while.

Observing,

I am totally in awe of the thoroughness and secretiveness of your investigation. "Snooping" is just too elementary a word for what you are having to do to find out the slightest crumbs of info on what your H is up to. If your H is indeed engaged in an EA or PA, he is masterful at hiding it, and there's no way you'd ever catch him if you were the average reluctant-to-snoop BS. I hope for your sake it turns out to be nothing...but if there is something, I hope you find concrete evidence soon ... because the sooner the cards are all on the table, the sooner your marriage can *really* recover.

Take care... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Fiatflux,


That's right.

And I sure appreciate your kindness and compassion.

I was going to reply with more details on the difficulty of getting information from my husband's cell phone along with questions for input from other posters on this website as to what to do about it, but this morning's events changed that.

I may now have access to my husband's cell phone records (TODAY update below)!

Take care, and I'll eventually let you know what I find (or don't find).

YESTERDAY:

Feel much better these days.

It seems that after our last tearful discussion, things have changed for the better.

I think my husband was blown away when I told him that I thought he was an adulterer.

I ended up saying, that when he leaves town and then comes home late, "How do I know you're not out having sex"? He just thought to himself quietly.

I think he had things worked up in his mind about me. It must have made him think when I explained how I turned down another man for his sake, even when I didn't feel like he loved me.

In the following days, when he asked me to continue letting him know about my feelings, I was courteous but direct, that in the past there were times when I just wanted to get sex "over with" and that the night of our talk I felt like our hasty sex satisfied him, but not me, making him aware that he needs to think (stop forgetting) about me as much as he thinks about himself.

I think he's sorting out things in his mind that I couldn't share with him before because he didn't think I was entitled to feelings that oppose his own view of our relationship.

He is now emailing me daily, as requested, about his addiction struggles and how he is trying to overcome them.

He is also treating me with more care and kindness. This gives me hope.

Like yesterday morning, when I was ready to leave with the kids for skiing, he came over to give me a sincere hug and kiss good-bye before we drove away. Don't remember one like that since our earlier years of marriage.

I have to straddle two different emotions right now. One in that I am trying to allow trust to return in my heart and the other that I must be vigilant on verifying his actions to make sure I can trust him.

I wish I could choose one or the other and in doing so, be more consistent.

TODAY:

This morning I took my husband's pillow and BEAT THE BED with it a few times.

I just couldn't cope with the fact that I had just lost an entire hour's worth of precious energy, trying to write my husband a positive email explaining the basic list that I needed from him about his daily struggles and what he's doing to over come them.

You see, he had sent me progress emails for the last 3 days, which I truly appreciated, but the information was so completely VAGUE (beating around the bush) that I couldn't even understand it, let alone be reassured by it.

That's when I decided to give him a basic example list of "successes and failures" to help him out. I did this along with a carefully written and courteous explanation of how I need this compared to the ones he has been sending me. He wants me to be honest, right?

So when I hit the wrong button on my PDA/Phone draft instead of the "save" button, I LOST IT.

I felt like giving up. Why do I have to be his secretary over this? Why is it so hard to get the truth out of him? Why can't he just be open and honest with me? Why do I have to let his problem consume me?

No more than a minute later, I received a gentle text message from my husband saying that he didn't feel like working today. I replied that his day must be going as BADLY as mine.

That must have caught his attention. He remembered that I had stayed up late last night, after getting back from a day with the kids, typing something (another MB website post). He asked me if anything was wrong before going to sleep. I said no, because there really wasn't.

Minutes later, he CALLED, and happened to intercept an email I was writing to tell him that I finally needed TIME OUT from our relationship. I hesitatingly answered the phone and calmly explained what just happened.

We talked for more than an hour about how we would try again with the emailed list and then get counseling on the phone with Steve Harley as our next move if that didn't work out, before taking TIME OUT on our relationship.

Now he knows how MANY hours-a-day for months and months I have been putting into trying to solve our relationship problems and that I was BURNING OUT.

He asked me if I believed him that he is not cheating on me. I said no. I said that I needed proof by his actions, plus he needs to be transparent with me about where he goes and what he does.

While we were talking about what a counselor would have us do, he said he didn't have a problem with giving me a copy of his business cell phone billing records for the past 6 months if that's what I wanted.

But he added that he should only do that for his own phone and not the other few phones on the same "family plan" and that he wouldn't be responsible if his truck drivers made inappropriate calls.

I said I wanted the entire record for ALL the phones since all phones were available for HIS use at anytime.

Besides, if his employees were making inappropriate calls on business phones, then it would come out when I inspected the bills and his company should do something about it. He admitted the wisdom in that right away.

He also offered me a remote connection to his computer, although he admitted that his emails could still be deleted by the time I got there since he deletes all of our private emails, as I already know.

What's more, he offered to take me on all of his trips, including to the doctor, on his monthly day trip and out of state trips, which we couldn't do before because someone had to take care of the kids. Now our kids are old enough to take care of each other.

I felt amazingly relieved. But he looked devastated at lunch time.

The only reason I am bothered and wanted to post here was because he volunteered that if I wanted to kick him out of the house, he would understand and accept it. What?

Why would he be willing to be kicked out of the house if he was innocent? Or, is he admitting that his Adultery of the Heart has "gone too far" (as indicated in another email regarding the portrait issue)?

Last time (months ago), when he mentioned "separation" as a way of solving our problems, it really bothered me. So I had a question planned for him the next time he brought up something like that, "Are you planning on going some where? He immediately defended himself by saying that he had no plans of going anywhere.

He said that he can understand how his problem is consuming me and that he doesn't want to ruin my life anymore than he already has.

He said he thought he was giving me what I wanted in his progress emails but that it was "not enough". I agreed that what he gave me was "not enough honesty". And that trying to appease me with 10% of the truth isn't going to work for me. It would only bring us to the TIME OUT phase – INDEFINITELY.

He also implied that my "lack of trust" could be a problem in fixing our relationship. I explained that he needs to give me a reason to trust again.

That's where we're at.

Observing:

Just my random thoughts.

Most folks in an A leave a wide trail of evidence, especially if they think they are not being watched. Your H does not appear to think that he is being watched carefully by you, at least from an electronic and/or GPS point of view.

You review his business e-mail and find nothing untoward. He keeps this account clean. But if he was in contact with another woman, he would open up another email account. With no connection to the company system. You may think that he isn't very High-tech, but even WH's can learn enough to open up other email accounts and cover up thier contact. And your key logger should have picked this up. But it hasn't. Remember that.

Can one e-mail be enough to co-ordinate a clandestine meeting? Yes. They may have it all worked out, and that is all it takes.

But this would have to be an A that only needs four hours and one e-mail a month to stay alive.

Your Husband could be on the office/Cell phone with OW for hours. But you would know that as well.

Soooo.....

What I am thinking is that he may have had and A in the past, but that he is not currently involved in one.

Because people in affairs need to talk to each other, because they are "so in love", they are "soulmates" and even the most despicable man needs to sweet talk the woman he is about to bed......

OK?

Unless this OW is just a prostitute and needs to schedule your H's time. Just confirming: 2:30 on the 3rd, a regular delivery for $150.

And that is a different problem to address....

Lousygolfer,

I appreciate your random thoughts.

They help me confirm my latest findings that my husband may not be currently displaying adulterous (EA, PA) behavior.


You're right. He has no idea his vehicle is being tracked and therefore is not trying to hide anything that way. But even if it wasn't tracked, he is NOT one to be caught parked where he shouldn't be.

It's funny. He knows where everyone else is going and what they are supposedly doing.

You know how some people are "street wise"? I think my husband is "worldly wise".


That's right. My keylogger has not picked up access to another email account besides his business account which resides on his computer. Good news.


You're right again. I found out that this email is not what I suspected it to be (update below).


Unless he was using a calling card or had a separate post office box to use with a separate cell phone (as I've read has happened to people on this forum).

I told my husband I didn't want to be the BLIND wife.


This seems possible.

I also noticed his cell phone records (update below) had much LESS activity in the last few months than earlier in the year, but this could be due to his slower business season.

I have been asking a lot of questions in the last few days, trying to turn over every possible stone, and he answered that there has been no prostitute or One Night Stand (ONS), even though he admitted that it would be hard to prove that.

At least now that I have attempted to call TIME OUT on our relationship, he is taking this seriously and is answering all of my questions – some better than others.

Update...

I'm sad. Because I am not enough for my husband, he is always looking for more.

Like yesterday, when we joined a large gathering of people. He didn't realize I was standing next to a woman who caught his attention while he was listening to a speaker. I had made my way around the crowd since I wanted to take some video clips at different angles. I was about 10-20 feet away from my husband when I looked at him and SMILED, thinking that he just turned his head to acknowledge me standing there. But he didn't smile at me and turned his head back to the speaker. It was then that I realized he was looking at the woman who was standing only 2 feet in front of me and missed his wife altogether!

I was sick. I just wish my husband would notice me like he notices other women.

I was even wearing the diamonds he just bought me over the weekend. He bought them as a way of saying "thank you" for putting up with him and as a sign of renewal in our marriage. At least he could have noticed those!

Yeah, I could have asked for anything in the jewelry store over the weekend (last time he bought me diamonds was before we were married) and he would have bought it for me, but I was reasonable.

Next time, I probably shouldn't be. Maybe I should give him a FINANCIAL reason (insurance) to pay attention to me. Or color my hair a glistening blonde (I'm brunette) or wear a long red wool coat for the next speech!

We did have a great weekend though. Two things were different about his monthly trip. One, he didn’t get his usual hair cut. Two, he took ME with him.

He did remarkably well in making me feel loved in his efforts to help me build trust in him again. It did occur to me that he was behaving so well because he knew I was present and watching.

This happened after receiving his emails late last week about his struggles and what he was doing to overcome them. My trust was building rapidly (even though he doesn't experience his greatest trials at work). That is why I accepted the diamonds.

I had also quickly sorted through the year's cell phone records that he brought home immediately after I had originally called TIME OUT on our relationship over the phone last week. This was probably the WAKE UP call for him since he is of the mind that once I make that kind of decision, there would be no turning back.

I will be checking out his computer soon. I no longer need a reason to go to his office. He knows I would rather have random access to his actual computer than browser access to his email account (which might not be the only email account he could access) or remote access to his computer. Really, I only need to secretly change the keylogger settings, so that's nice.

But he will be taking a business day trip with his secretary toward the end of this week and I will decline to go along with them since I don't want to feel like a chaperone. I mentioned that traveling with his secretary was not only inappropriate, but also scandalous to my best girlfriend who works in the bookkeeping office and might be led to think something's going on. His secretary is NO threat to me (although she is steeped in marital problems), but still. He admitted that if she were a different woman, I might be concerned. I replied that if she was a different woman, he would NEVER be allowed to go, except by risking his marriage!

We did talk about my suspicions of the woman he bought product stock for. He had a good laugh and said, "You should see what she looks like"! Then he explained her appearance, which confirmed to me that he would not be interested. I believed him (and can visit the woman who lives just 20 minutes away to make sure). So now I have relief with that (she is only a damsel in distress, just like her email indicates). That's more good news.

I think we have covered a lot of ground in the last few days and my husband claimed that I would NOT find ANYTHING regarding adulterous behavior on his part. He said that if he was cheating, there would be an easy TRAIL for me to find and that he would never hand me his cell phone under those circumstances.

But when I asked him why he stood by and watched me enter preset text messages into his cell phone, he did not give me a satisfactory answer. I have asked this more than once.

I never did ask him why he showed up in the office that night when I was making copies (and also trying to change the keylogger settings).

His cell phone records show a lot of INCOMING calls, but the actual incoming phone number is not listed on the billing records. So although nothing looks suspicious at first glance, I only have half the records, right?

I am very happy with my husband's attempt to make me feel comfortable and give me any information I want. In his words, "I'll do anything you want me to do".

I do feel bad for asking, which was part of the guilt trip he put me on and then he apologized.

He did say that he wants to get everything out in the open NOW. He doesn't want DOUBTS to creep up later when he thinks everything is going fine again.

Last night, he could tell I was sad. He offered TIME OUT, which he called a "break". I just couldn't ruin the momentum we had going, so I declined.

I just let him know that I didn't want anymore "struggle updates" by email. I didn't say it, but what's the use of getting email updates when as soon as he thinks I'm not paying attention, he's back to looking again?

I was under the impression we had made huge progress in just a few days. He made me feel so loved again and I did the same for him. Over the weekend he had a twinkle in his eye and a smile on his face. I enjoyed seeing him that way.

Even our sexual relationship has made incredible progress as my husband learns to be a giver, not just a taker. I am very pleased with his efforts.

What's more, his wedding ring is at the jeweler for diamond replacement and we are currently looking for a frame for his office portrait.

But yesterday, when I accidentally (not looking for it) saw him MISS seeing me but NOT MISS seeing the woman standing next to me, my heart SUNK. It told me that he still wants more than what he's already got.

I noticed that he acted strange once we joined the crowd. I knew he was fighting his battle. I didn't like the feeling. I'm not sure I want to be out in the public with him. I feel like he's not the husband I cherish when he's like that. I simply can't find JOY in not being enough for him.

A few days ago, after discussing how much I have tried to make things better for us, he did concede that no matter how much Sexual Fulfillment I gave him, it would not have stopped him from looking. Over the weekend, he said that 1 month ago, he would not have been ready to buy me diamonds. What does all this mean?

Does it mean that I am living with a man who can't help himself and I just have to live with this for the rest of my life?

Last night, I just wanted to crawl in bed, fall asleep and die (except for being there for my children).

Today, I am trying to work up the courage to smile and be happy again even though I know this won't change anything for my husband's wandering eyes.

Hi I just came across this thread and this is something I have been concerned with my FWH. I was wondering what you classify and "looking" at other women? Is is more than one glance? I have never noticed my FWH "look" before but then I never watched him until I found out he cheated on me, now I see him look at women but I don't know if he's "looking" because they're good looking or if it's just normal looking. I see him glance quick glances at the same person more than once so that's why I was wondering what you guys consider "looking" or appropriate. He definetly doesn't gawk at people. Thanks, I hope it was ok to post on this thread.

I just glanced through this thread...here's where I'm lost.

You've been snooping since October, suspecting something. You've done some pretty impressive snooping at that...most people aren't nearly as adept as you are. This coming from someone who is (in his own opinion) a pretty sharp 'snooper' himself.

You've seen NO evidence of an affair this entire time. Not one true thing to seriously give any kind of indication of an EA or PA. Or have I missed something? (I saw the 'suspect email" thing...but none of those were common occurences, or contained any suspect information at all)

Either you're married to James Bond, or the odds of something really going on are slim.

I would agree that it appears that both of you have some definite areas to work on to improve your marriage...but it doesn't appear that an affair is the issue here to me. And I'm one of the most suspicious people around.

What would it take...what 'proof' do you need...to decide he's NOT having an affair? If there's no answer to that question...it might be time to think about it.

I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh and judegmental...it's not. I just don't know how else to describe my thoughts after reading the thread. I'm not 'condemning you'...I'm just curious why you still suspect infidelity after all of your thorough checking.

Observing:

You describe a lousy situation here.



But we have discussed your reaction to this in the past.



He may have just NOT SEEN you. You were in a crowd. Yes, he was distracted by something else, but you PRESUME that he was ignoring you.

Don't do that ok. Because the rest of what you describe is a man that many women around here would die for.


Gives you free access to e-mail, cell phone and office computer.
Provides you with a nice home, standard of living and doesn't seem physically abusive.
Compliments you and pays attention to you when you were out with him for the weekend.

Hitting many stong points there.

And you have discussed with him his behavior regarding looking at other women. And he seems to be telling you that he isn't going to do it around you anymore.

And when he does it when you are not around, you freak out.

Relax. Decide what it is IN YOU that so troubles you about his behavior in regards to this.

Because the only way you can ever prevent him from not looking, is to put his eyes out.

Now this quote with my responses in ALL CAPS:




As for this:

I would call that a disrespectful judgement. (DJ) Especially in light of this:



He is TRYING to change the behavior that you told him you do not like him to do. HE needs to fight the battle. You need to provide encouragement and admiration when you see him doing it. Say something like "I know it is uncomfortable for you not to stare at all these beautiful women in this crowd, thank you for trying to change that behavior in you. I love you even more for it."

And for this:



The first part is the realization that he will look, and he is trying to change his behaviors. And the amount of SF he gets will not change it. Because the two are not related. But the second is more telling. He wanted to do it for you, not in the past, but now. And this past W/E you were alone with him and able to shower him with love. And he could shower you with it as well. And you ended up with diamonds...

So, Observing, we started with you H looking at OW as a recreational pastime, one that you took great offense from. You have discussed it with him and he has toned it down and is now visibly working to prevent himself from staring.

What have you done?

LG

Wantingtomoveon,

Welcome, and thank you for posting here. I'm so sorry your husband cheated on you. I do hope you find the answers you are looking for.

I consider "looking" (at least the kind that hurts me) as when my husband either looks past me to get a better look at another woman and ignores me altogether while he's doing it, or when he REPEATEDLY looks (can't get enough glances to satisfy his curiosity) at another woman who is either scantily dressed or is young and naïve to his presence.

I think it is ONE thing to notice and appreciate the beauty of another person and ANOTHER thing to look at them or their body parts to satisfy a sexual interest or urge. The latter is what I am calling looking (repeated and persistent glances) or gawking (staring without being sensitive to women as persons instead of objects).

The reason it bothers me is because it makes me feel like I am not enough for my husband and that he is desperate to seek out MORE. If that is the case, then I would like him to spare me (leave me alone) and go after his WANTS elsewhere. I don't need false love. Nor do I want it.

I have never been a jealous person and that may be why I hardly noticed his looking over the years and then survived (made the best of it) when it did happen, although it has gotten worse and has made me think there is someone else in his life.

Even then, I have explained to my husband that I haven't felt so much like there has been another woman as much as I have felt that he WANTS other women. How would he like it if I wanted MANY other men?

Basically, he makes me feel like adultery is in his heart when he zooms in on a heavy-set lady's bare legs with a high skirt on one end of the table and a young women's half bare breasts on the other end of the table, all while having breakfast with his dear wife and children at a nearby table.

After a bunch of this, you just get SUSPICIOUS!!!

Once the suspicion starts, then you NOTICE it ALL the time. That's what happened to me.

I have asked my husband, what is it that he WANTS when he looks at other women. He can't seem to give me an answer. Well, it couldn't possibly be ME!

Owl,

I appreciate your explanation and I'm happy to get another point of view, especially from another avid snooper.


Gee, thank you!


I think I am now coming to that conclusion – although it's still in process.


Uh, I guess that IS a possibility, so I'm not going to second guess anything after hearing lies from him in the past over things that are serious or important to me.


Now that's the BEST question on this entire forum.

It's simple. I will be satisfied when he stops his strange obsession of looking at other women and gives me as much interest (and time) as he does them.

Realistically, I don't see this happening in the near future. He's the one who has admitted "permanent damage" (lust) while growing up.


First, I'm not finished with finding the proof I need. I don't even know what the incoming phone numbers are on his company billing records. I also need to send in his underwear from last month for testing just to make sure. Some of my vehicle tracking was botched by incorrect settings while trying to hide my computer screen from my children's interest and so on.

Secondly, I have known people for years who I NEVER suspected as being guilty of serious things, only to find out later that they were. What a shock! Through those experiences, I have learned that you need to turn over every stone and get proof - and even still, you can be fooled if you are not thorough enough.

Third, I don't want to be one of the MANY blind women who have been FOOLED by their lying husbands for 20 or 30 years. Remember what my husband said in one of my previous posts, "You're not as gullible as you used to be". Was he taking advantage of my trust?

Being a very trusting person, once my trust is lost, it's hard to get it back. I can't say that my husband has been very WILLING to get it back through the last few months – big strike against him.

So, yes, I am being CAUTIOUS. Plus, I'm the techie type, have access to and interest in all the detective tools – and the money to use them.

Think about it. If my husband lies to me in the past, what makes me think he's not lying to me in the present? How am I to know without turning over every stone to my own satisfaction?

Lousygolfer,

Thanks for your time in helping me to sort out what's going on and how to deal with my feelings.


Like any intelligent man, my husband sees what he WANTS to see, especially toward the edge of a loosely woven crowd.

Speaking of:


Keep in mind, that he became most of the man you are talking about LESS than a week ago. And it took RADICAL perseverance on my part to get to this point in our relationship.

When it comes to provisions, he's AWESOME. And I married him knowing that he wouldn't be physically abusive, which I wouldn't tolerate for ONE DAY since I grew up with a father like that.

Actually, his financial status may change within the next couple years. Remember the profitable order that he lost recently? That was the one that COVERED the losses from his business sibling's spending. My husband says that without that extra profit, he doesn't see the company surviving.

This can set the stage for my husband and I working together in the future. This year, even though my business has been on auto-pilot for months, it still broke a record which appeals to my husband. Now I need to get OFF the MB website, build another website and double those figures!


You've got some good points with the secretary issue. No kidding – if she has marital problems, all the more to watch for an inappropriate relationship.

BUT, it turns out (keylogger report) that she didn't know she was going on the trip with my husband and when he asked, she declined.

The good news is that last night my husband told me that she wouldn't be going and invited me to go with him.


You're so right. I will work on it.


I just want my husband's heart. Is that asking too much?


That's a loaded question.

With all due respect for my favorite "lousy golfer", I will answer briefly:

On one hand, I have spent roughly 9 hours a day for 5 solid months (after at least 2 previous years not knowing about MB) working on my marriage, and then with the time that is left over, I have taken care of my children and kept an eye on my online business which is on auto-pilot.

On the other hand, I have not been adulterous with another man as a means of solving my marital problems.

Owl,

Could I be married to "James Bond"?

Just this afternoon, I took a second glance at my husband's cell phone billing records. I wanted to do a quick check of calls that I knew existed and compare them to his billing records.

In about an hour, I found several calls that we made to each other which were listed on my PDA/Phone log, but were NOT listed on his billing records - even a 47 minute phone call that he made to me (outgoing) in October 2006.

I checked another month. I found a few more phone calls that we made to each other which were listed on my PDA/Phone log, but were NOT listed on his billing records.

Do I have incomplete records (originals) or is his phone company corrupt or am I married to "James Bond"?

Obviously I have a lot more work to do. Presently, I don't have the TIME to comb through all the month's records and insert everything into a database for query building to make sure, but I have asked my husband for "complete" records FAXED to me from his phone company (incurs charges).

In the meantime, and with trembling hands, I have a ton of work to catch up on since I have put my online business on hold for months and taxes are due soon.

Thanks observing for welcoming me in. I also have never been jealous or have had low self esteem until finding out that he did cheat on me. I know what you mean that once you start being suspcious then you're always thinking the worst. I watch his every move and I have never noticed him look in our 20 yrs together but I never was worried or doubted him. I get suspicious when he looks a few times in the same direction as other women, there doesn't necessarily have to be just women over there, but I take it as though that's what he keeps looking over there for. So I have noticed him though look a few times, quick glances do you think that's just innocent looking around? He never appears to look around me. I feel so confused about this, I realize to what you said that he's going to find others attractive. Thanks again for your help and letting me come in on this.

Observing:

This could be tough, but you are looking for help, right?

Owl asked you this:


And you responded with:



His Strange Obsession? and as much interest (and time)? Previously, you have accused him of lusting after your daughter! Who's Stange Obsession? If HE is having dinner with YOU, and looks at the other patrons, then it ruins everything for you. You are constructing a life that says you can never go outside with your H again. Because your H needs to see where he is going. And he might just look at another woman because she crosses his sightline.

Let me explain:
Your description of what happened in the crowd the other day was very similar to a situation that happened to me and my Wife. Our son is 14 and going to the High School next year. And they had an informational meeting last evening. W and I went. When the meeting was over, we exited the Auditorium in to this large open Atrium. About 300 people were there. We both turned right coming out, and were looking at some school displays. I started moving ahead and went to the last display putting me in the corner of the Atrium. I turned around, expecting W to be still looking at the displays, I could not see her. There were alot of people milling about, but it was not crowded at all. And there are these big pillars between the doors of the Auditorium and the displays. Where did she go? If she could see me, and continued watching me, before I saw her, she might wonder what I was looking for. I was looking for her. But before I found her, I could have rested my eyes on other men/women/kids. And then I saw her. And she was not where I expected her to be. So I waved and walked over. I know, your H was seated, and you were moving about, and he was not keeping track of you. What would your reaction have been if he had watched your every move?

You answer one of my statements regarding diamonds with:



Was there a point in time that you feel you had all of it? Because looking around at folks does not mean he doesn't give you all of his heart. Can he be disrespectful about it? Yes, and he is working on that. And you know he is. You described his actions in regards to this.

And then you close with:


"5 Solid Months?" Most of that time was developing snooping plans and looking for evidence of a past EA/PA. And yes you and he did spend time reading and working HNHN. But I disagree that you "spent" that time "working" on your M. You Wanted to bust him. And since you haven't been able too, you are disappointed.

"Taken care of my children." I thought that they were "OUR" children.

"On-line business which is on Auto-Pilot" And that one really burns you up. Because you need the admiration that comes from that. And you have put it aside while you hunt for info.

And this:



No you haven't, and you haven't yet proved that your H has had an EA/PA yet either. And if you are referring to my A, then I would give everything to have found MB before I found OW. Because although my M is better now than it ever has, I would do anything to remove the stain of the A from my M. So, my A didn't solve my marital problems, my greater knowledge and actions did. And have you already determined what you are going to do if you DO find out he had an EA/PA in the past?

I'm wielding some 2x4's at you today. Because I need you to start looking inward at what is going on. You cannot change your H. You can change yourself. You need to look inside and find out what is making you obsessive about the way he looks at others. You have already told us that you still have a good figure, good skin, good looks and are bright. Yet, you are so threatened by him looking at others, and how others perceive you. If you were to take the Emotional Needs Questionaire from HNHN and answer the questions again, but from the point of view that you were going to discuss the answers with me, your H or what you percieved the "right" answers to be, how would those answers change?

That is why I ask: "What have you done?"

Because you just might construct a box for yourself that you cannot get out of.

Lousygolfer,

I think you're jumping the gun a little.

Allow me to progress and we'll see what I find – or don't find. I have the right to the information I am seeking since my husband gave me a reason to search, learn, snoop, sort, read, write, think, walk, discuss, shop, buy, pray and meet his most important Emotional Needs with greater intensity.

I do have a question for you:

If my husband were innocent, why would he accept being kicked out of the house if I decided to do that to him?

I would NEVER accept being kicked out of the house if I were innocent. But that's what he told me he would accept.

So whatever he's doing is clearly not my imagination. If he thinks what he is doing warrants being kicked out, it must be.

Lousygolfer,

Perhaps I was confused as to what you have been asking me.

Are you asking me what I could be doing for myself, to make me a better person since I can't change my husband?

If so, then my answer is:

I would like to live "as friends" with my husband.

I think this would make me a better person. I would no longer feel like my lover is always looking for another lover. I would smile more often, laugh more often and go about my business, while letting my husband go about his business.

Are you asking me what I would do if I found him guilty of Adultery (PA)?

If so, then my answer is:

I would like to live "as friends" with my husband.

I would never want to be the one to break the scandalous news of Adultery to our children and I wouldn't try to impose myself on a husband who wants another woman. At the same time, I would want to keep my marriage vows "until death do us part".

Yes, I could do what I think would make me a better person.

But would these things make a better marriage? No.

That's why I trouble myself with working on our marriage.

That's why I ask for my lover's heart.

Observing:

Your quote:

If my husband were innocent, why would he accept being kicked out of the house if I decided to do that to him?

Because maybe HE'S not interested in living like this:

I would like to live "as friends" with my husband.

Because that is the alternative you are willing to live with, NO MATTER what you happen to dig out.

Can't you see this? He probably senses where you are going. And is not interested in being in that place with you.

For example:

I lived "as friends" when I first left the Air Force for 2 years. These were all other males, and we had interesting times.

But since we were "Friends" we would look at all the pretty women we could!

But that is not what I wanted from M. Yes, I am "friends" with my W. Moreso now then ever before. But that deeper marital connection transcends were my (or her) eyes may be during all our waking hours. Does my W have self-esteem issues? Oh Yes. And my A kicked her self-esteem hard. But I have slowly but surely worked at improving her self-esteem since. Through, kind, caring, loving ACTIONS.

AND that is what MB is all about.

Lousygolfer,

Uh...


Not true. The options I mentioned in my previous post were…

1. IF my husband didn't want to change his hurtful behavior toward me, OR

2. IF he was currently found guilty of Adultery while claiming the opposite

3. AND I had to find a way to better myself.


I'm trying not to be there either.

So if he's telling the truth and doesn't want to live only "as friends", then all he needs to do is look no further than his wife for a lover.

Then we could BOTH live happily ever after – in romantic love.

Sometimes I feel like I'm sinking.

My husband and I had another opportunity to come to an "agreement" on an event that involves his relatives this week.

A decision was made in time, but my husband really DRAGGED HIS FEET on getting the information we needed to be able to come to an agreement.

Because we had a deadline, I took it upon myself to find the necessary information and then, after stumbling across more information once he made a phone call, I made a decision for myself (he can come along if he wants) and the kids.

This frustration set me back somewhat and I'm now swimming around, trying to find the shore of Plan A, as I sort through the cell phone records that arrived by MAIL this week in an effort to find "closure" (as he puts it) to my suspicions.

Finally.

Here's what I found by sorting through both my husband's and my own cell phone billing records:

Even though his total minutes of calls are recorded, his "Local Usage" incoming and outgoing calls are NO LONGER listed in detail since August 9, 2006.

The timing doesn't seem good to me.

This change in listings started LESS than a week BEFORE I found this website and began my version of Plan A and about the same time he upgraded his cell phone.

Why would the same phone company OMIT Local Usage listings for the same phone number after August 9, 2006 but not before?

Why would this also be done for his and his business sibling's cell phone on the same account, but not for the additional cell phones on a separate account with the same company?

Although his INCOMING calls do not have phone numbers associated with them, mine do.

This is what I found by looking at records dated AFTER his Local Usage listings stopped:

- 406 minutes recorded within a 4 month period, but ONLY 23 of those minutes are actually listed as incoming or outgoing calls on his cell phone billing records.

Where are the listings for the other 383 minutes for that period?

- 142 minutes of calls he made TO ME viewable from my own cell phone records, but ONLY 6 of those minutes are listed as OUTGOING calls on his cell phone billing records.

Where are the listings for the other 136 minutes of calls to me during that time?

Why are these calls unaccounted for?

What other kinds of calls are unaccounted for?

What should I do about this?

What should I do?

I calmly spoke with my husband about the cell phone record findings (or serious lack of).

Now I'm waiting for him to put my name on the account (he volunteered) so that I can discuss the missing records with his Phone Company and attempt to get more information on those records.

The problem is that since we last spoke about this (same day as my last post), I have heard NOTHING about whether or not I have access to the account yet. Besides the account numbers, which I already have, I need his Employer Identification Number to get information.

Should I ask him about it again? I don't feel like I should have to since we already discussed this.

When it was initially time to give me a copy of the cell phone records from the office, I didn't have to remind him. It seemed to be first on his list for the day.

But since the missing records, satisfying my curiosity no longer appears to be on his mind.

If he does NOTHING, I will be led to believe that there is something to hide.

What should I expect from him right now?

Not that I want to change the subject at a time like this, but I did want to mention:

Remember the property issue, the one that was a bitter-sweet victory for me, but my name was not on a legal document regarding the ownership of the property even though my husband and I supposedly own our property together?

Well, if not for confronting my husband with the bank's legal document where his name was listed but my name was omitted, he would have left the document in our home file cabinet where he swiftly filed it - without even knowing that HIS name was actually no longer on the legal property ownership records either!

Apparently, the process wasn't finished but nobody knew it or knew why it wasn't.

Today my husband emailed me to let me know that their attorney MAY be taking over the property issue in the near future since he (and his relatives) can't seem to get it worked out any other way.

In the meantime, the property we live on doesn't even legally belong to us.

I guess it was too good to be true.

It makes you wonder, do I have to double-check everything?

It's hard to explain what takes place in the human heart.

Our last event, the one we couldn't come to an agreement on, but went anyway, added to my awareness of our true relationship.

It turned out to be one of the most treasured events that I have been to in a long time because it was the beginning of "healing" for some particular relative issues.

I knew that as Christians, we needed to go.

We were there to do our part, as a family, and we did.

I felt so whole as a family and with my husband, even though my husband and I had things like "missing cell phone records" hanging over our heads. I could see the "big picture" for our relationship - STILL.

Not so for my husband.

As we carried conversation while waiting for the delayed event to begin, his eyes repeatedly darted away from mine as we spoke to each other so that he could get a better view of a young woman sitting beyond me.

Crap! Not this again.

Keep in mind, it's not hard to miss this when you are looking into your husband's eyes while speaking with him and he can't concentrate on the conversation.

I can't explain the feeling of WORTHLESSNESS as a wife when you are sitting there, shoulder to shoulder as a couple, everybody is watching, but you know your husband is not interested in you.

All I could think to myself at the moment was that he was a RABID addict.

So this time, I went for some DRAMA!

I was dressed my best, feeling good and his actions gave me extra confidence to stand up for myself, which kept me from getting frustrated and allowed me to deal with it positively and in real time.

So I exaggeratedly turned around and LOOKED to see what was so important, then looked back at him to acknowledge that he WAS interested in something else, and then turned around and did the same thing again, successfully making him AWARE that I knew what he was doing and that it was interrupting our conversation.

Go girl! I mean GO WOMAN!

It was then that I realized that he could CARE LESS about sitting next to me, or visiting with me for that matter, and that he never bothered to smile at me during the day and had no twinkle in his eye like I had for him.

H---! How can I be so STUPID? When are you going to figure it out woman?

But he LAUGHED wholeheartedly and with radical enthusiasm when the same young woman began speaking on a microphone a couple hours later for another part of the event.

Standing behind me, it was obvious that his sudden joy for the day ERUPTED, even though the poor young woman wasn't saying anything at all, just making a fool of herself – and he absolutely loved it.

What was his problem? No one else was laughing.

After a day of traveling and the challenge of meeting up with so many relatives all in one place, a positive nightcap conversation was very, very, VERY important to me, especially considering how much my husband had, at least by omission, contributed to the RUIN of some of those relationships over the years.

He used the opportunity not to cherish our marriage and bond our relationship that night, but instead to take out revenge against me since I calmly called him on his obstinate behavior before we had left for the event that morning.

What a CRAPSHOOT of a relationship!

When am I ever going to learn? What does it take for me to WAKE UP?

Observing, I totally understand where you are coming from! I have been married slightly less than a year and have dealt with this wandering eye garbage non-stop. What makes it worse now is that I am nearly eight months pregnant, so, I am extra sensitive to it. We have gone over this issue, and I know when we are out in public he is trying to curtail it, and it hurts me that the man I am married to is on edge at times trying to control himself from gawking and lusting after other women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I don't think I can live this way for the rest of my life. I find it disrespectful, painful and sometimes wish I could just go out in public alone, instead of with him. And get this, he wouldn't be bothered by me gawking at other men, he points them out to me sometimes! I want my baby to have an intact family but I don't want him to see his mother upset all the time, either. Anyway, I feel better knowing I am not alone when it comes to this subject.

Obs, did I ever direct you to the links in my sig line about living with a passive/aggressive man?

Want to talk about it?
Mulan

Obs, I looked through your thread again.

You have completely lost focus and your husband has you right where he wants you - jumping through hoops and going crazy.

He is a Passive/Aggressive bully and he is using P/A tactics to control you and keep you out of the way.

The more you obsess and worry and try to spy and get the truth, the more he laughs, because your agony and frustration mean he's Winning and you're Losing.

The more you tell him how hurtful his gawking and ignoring you is, the more comfortable he is, because your pain and humiliation mean that he's Winning and you're Losing.

He may give lip service to POJA, but that's no problem - POJA won't work without PORH, and since he's utterly defeated PORH by refusing to participate he has no worries about POJA.

Again - you are barking up the wrong tree.

Trying to educate him and telling him he's hurting you only reinforce to him that He's Winning and You're Losing, which is exactly what he wants. P/As are some of the most controlling people on the face of the earth and they are massively uncomfortable if they do not feel fully in control of the situation - in this case, the marriage.

And he IS in control of it because he's driving you crazy and deliberately pushing your buttons to keep you off-balance, out of the way and under HIS control.

If he were an alcoholic, we'd tell you that MB principles do not work with addicts and to get the alcoholism treated before trying MB plans.

It's no different with a P/A. P/As will sabotage and defeat any MB plan you can name, just as your husband is doing.

Unless and until you can cure the nasty P/A disease, MB plans have no more chance of working here than they do of working on an alcoholic.

You've got to focus on the P/A disease and nothing else. If that cannot be cured, you will have to make the choice of either living with him exactly as he is now or else leaving to save your own sanity.
Mulan

Madea,

Thanks for sharing your feelings.

You're fortunate to be here at MB where you can learn early in your marriage. You'll have so much more of an advantage than those of us who discovered MB decades after our marriage vows.

I do want you to know that you are more BEAUTIFUL than you will EVER be when you are pregnant and carrying a loving child within your womb – whether your husband makes you feel that way or not.

You have a special glow about you. You are breathing for two people right now. That is wonderful and no one can take that joy away from you!

Go beauty! Go true love!


Glad my posting has been of help to you.

Mulan,

Thanks for the shot of SANITY.

I needed that.

Uh, I feel better already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do you really think it is ALL P/A behavior and not more?

I try to be objective. I can't help but think I am working with a double-whammy:

1. Passive/Aggressive (tries to control me)
2. Sexual Addiction (seems to control him)

I find it hard to believe that my husband is such a great ACTOR, that he can appear to be controlled by lust just to have more control over me as his wife.

Whether it is ONLY P/A behavior or P/A and Sexual Addiction combined, I have to solve the problem the same way, right?

In other words, I can't adopt MB principles until he overcomes this behavior.

So I guess you are right.

I tossed and turned all night last night, preparing for my next post: Plan AF (As Friends) as a solution to this behavior so that I don't go insane.

Somehow I have to live with him. I am true to my marriage vows. I cannot put my happy and secure children through h---. Never!

So the time has come. I really need to do something about this.

You can read about my personal resolution (Plan AF) in an upcoming post.

It's going to take courage and perseverance to follow through with it.

My husband will cuddle up, look like a lost puppy, speak gently to me and my heart will BREAK.

But I believe my plan is the right thing to do.

Major Update:

I guess we're heading into Plan AF (As Friends).

There is an AWARENESS that is coming over me.

Perhaps my subconscious has been trying to avoid it, partly because I don't want to be responsible for a ruined marriage since I value our marriage vows so much.

But in the last weeks, I'm realizing more and more that I am not responsible for my husband's actions against our marriage and that I should ACCEPT this.

I have always been the "people pleaser" type who wants to make the best of things especially at my own expense.

I could tell myself to be happy with the way things are, spend my time counting our blessings and give our marital problems the name "misunderstandings".

But I have decided NOT to practice FALSE charity towards my husband.

That is, if I lay down for him, pretending our marital relationship is good, he will never have a reason to stop hurting me, become a better person and change his lust for other women.

Instead, I will be enabling his behavior all the more and he'll have an ugly soul to present the Lord on judgment day.

Is that what I want for my neighbor? No.

Does he want to stop hurting me, become a better person or change his lustful behavior? I don't know.

But I least I will not be held responsible for being an accomplice to this kind of behavior in our marriage.

I find PEACE with that.

Therefore, and as of now, we are living "as friends".

Thank you!

I want to thank all my friends here who have taken the time to HELP me sort out my marital problems.

I am very much indebted to all of you, for helping me to see up, down, left, right and through the middle.

You have taken time out of your lives to help others. That gives me goose bumps!

God bless you all!

Observing, thank you for your kind words. I don't remember how long you have been married, but how have you dealt with this type of behavior for so many years? I don't think I can tolerate years of it. My husband and I had a blowup today over the phone and this topic came up. He said he was working on it, trying to change. While I recognize that he is, I am also angry that he has to work on it! I have a very strong sex drive (stronger than my husband's), and don't gawk at other men all the time. My hubby is in the Army, I love men in uniform and was a big looker before we got together, but not now even with all of the potential eye candy all over the place on base. To me, if he truly loved me and I was the love of his life, he would not seek out other women. I understand your pain. Yes, this behavior makes me very distrustful of him as it has for you with your husband. He said his first wife taught him this behavior. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> The same woman he caught in bed with another man, and after he took her back she cheated on him yet again after he left for Korea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He also made the mistake of saying until she taught him, he never looked at or thought about other women because he was so into her. Yes, that makes me feel great. And, I am not ugly, I've had plenty of men look at me and can still remember the first night we went out (he kept staring at me and telling me how pretty he thought I was). I hope things get better for you.

Madea,


We have been married for just over 23 years now. It has only been the last 6 months that everything has changed for me. Before that, my husband was always what I "believed" he was. Reality came to the rescue.

I do see God's hand in the timing. My children are very well established in their happy lives. They know who they are and where they are going. Their happiness and good behavior has inspired and helped me to survive the last few months of realization.


Blindly, I guess. We married on what I understood to be Christian trust and fidelity and so I trusted him completely, UNTIL he got noticeably worse recently.

The ONLY way I could get through it, and I say this from the bottom of my heart, was to pray that the PAIN of his IMPURITY against me be used by God to bring PURITY to our family.

It was not an easy prayer to get through. It was more like breaking out into a sweat. At least the problem didn't seem to happen often (or so I thought), until recently.

In the early years, I thought that it was only human (a man thing) and that I should look at the bigger picture. After all, he chose ME for his wife, didn't he?

But now that I look back, the first time it happened was one of the worst (blatant) and I should have done more about it (counseling).

If you don't mind, I'm going to have a little fun explaining the first time:

We had gone to a park at the lake for a family picnic with our small children. Another couple showed up and set up a picnic blanket right beside us (a little too close for me actually).

The woman began shedding her clothes until she ended up with hardly anything on (called a swimsuit), while I sat there coolly dressed like a young wife and mother.

My husband got up from where he was sitting (next to me on the other side), and found a position on a nearby log in front of me to seat himself so that he could have FULL VIEW of her nearly naked body (and me if necessary).

I felt VERY uncomfortable at the move he made. Why leave my side and sit there, facing her?

Next, he was staring at her and had this strange smile on his face. I was AGHAST!

I tried to get his attention, but to no avail.

And then adrenaline SHOT through me like HOT FIRE.

I just about grabbed the nearest semblance of a bulky pillow or rolled up blanket and THREW it in his face to knock some sense into him, break up the stare and show him how disrespectful he was being to his wife.

Lucky for him, I maintained control and didn't.

How I wish I had DONE IT to this day!

Actually, I could have jumped to my feet, took a huge swing with a bulky pillow or rolled up blanket, knocked him over the stump and onto his back and had myself a very good laugh.

That is, if he wasn't quick enough (he couldn't have been with such a stare) to grab the armor from me and start a huge fight.

We have never struck each other, so I still don't know what the potential could have been.

All I know is that he gave me ALL the energy I ever needed to DOWN HIM in a single second if I WANTED to – no matter what his stature.

Quite the scene it could have been, I'm sure!

I thought to myself. Oh! He must feel so comfortable with me as his FRIEND that he has no problem betraying me as his wife RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY FACE. I had never had anything like that happen to me before.

I asked to go home.

When I confronted him on the way home with what he was doing, he adamantly denied it. I got MAD. I knew he was lying and he had the nerve to think I was so stupid. I accused him of Adultery of the Heart, but he claimed that he didn't WANT her so he wasn't guilty.

And the rest is history.


Thank you and the same to you!

Manure hit the fan today.

My husband had been losing sleep and wanted to talk about the last couple weeks.

He's going to call Dr. Harley next week.

We need a moderator now.

Apparently, it's going to take a "subpoena" to get information on the incoming calls from his cell phone company.

Even though the arrival of the official cell phone records put our SF on hold for the last couple weeks, it wasn't until today that we agreed to TIME OUT on our relationship.

I've been thinking about something my husband said yesterday:

When specifying how important the cell phone records are, he said something to the effect that they could be the "beginning or the end of our relationship".

What? If he is innocent, how could they be the "end" of our relationship?

Also, by saying this, he seemed to confirm to me what he understands to be the consequences of possible evidence found against him.

Was he testing my response? I didn't respond to it, I just listened.

To compound the issue (huge stress factor for him), he faces possible exposure to his relatives or at least could build their suspicions when trying to obtain the complete records.

The ball is now in his court.

THIS MORNING:

Here I thought he would look at me like a sad puppy, but no such thing.

Instead, he has given me the COLD shoulder. The way he's acting, you'd think he was willing to FREEZE to death before changing his heart.

I think I fell into his trap yesterday. When he asked to talk, I had my guards down and forgot to rephrase everything he said with questions so as to steer away from excuses, blaming and confusion.

Somehow I blurted out that he could "Go ahead and have her. Go ahead and have all the others. But leave me alone".

I meant to say that he can go after what he wants, I can't stop him, but he should leave me out of that equation because I don't want to be used by him in the process.

I think he is now using that statement against me, that is, I am at fault in our marriage because I have pushed him away, and therefore he will stay away.

He wouldn't walk into the Church with me this morning, keeping an obvious distance behind me. He wouldn't sit with me during lunch afterwards.

Actually, I'm not sure this is too far out of character for him. His worst mood of the week is ALWAYS on Sunday, when we spend time together as a family.

THIS EVENING:

By the evening (and after a much needed nap), he was calm, cordial and willing to agree on our plans for the week (call Steve Harley, get complete phone records, keep relationship "on hold").

During this conversation, it occurred to me (but I didn't tell him) that there IS A WAY we could resume sexual relations if I find closure with the phone records: every time he hurts me with his lustful behavior, I can set aside 1 week for abstinence.

This gives our relationship a chance to grow, but he doesn't get away with hurting me. It wouldn't be hard for me to keep a fair log (add 1 week for every painful offense). Then we BOTH suffer. Not just me. That's something I might be able to live with.

He'll have to weigh the offense against the consequences of doing it - every time. Eventually, he'll have to break the habit because it just won't be worth it.

And for me, I can take out my PDA and add the offense which will help me deal with it in real-time without having to say a word (he can read about it later if he wants to).

Ultimately, he spends LESS time in purgatory. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Observing,

Why is it so hard to get the phone records? Is he the one making it difficult, or is the company he works for making it difficult, or what?

Is he resentful that you are pushing the issue of the phone records - has he suggested you drop it?

Take care...

He's pacing the house.

Not looking forward to tomorrow.

Lots on his mind.

Fiatflux,

Thanks for stopping by.


What's making it difficult is that the phone company requires a subpoena (absolutely ridiculous, I think) to find "number" information on the INCOMING calls.

If my husband has to go through the effort of getting a subpoena to get these numbers, then his gossiping relatives will want to know WHY.

He has to figure out a good story for them, but at the same time satisfy his wife.

Can be challenging, I guess.


No, he seems to be very understanding of why I want them.

However, he can be very stubborn about having to do "uncomfortable" things, as I didn't hear that he had called the phone company until he had lost a couple nights sleep over it.

Well, it sure doesn't seem like you are dealing with a wayward spouse in the usual sense, given how forthcoming he is with things like this.

I can certainly see why his wandering eyes hurt you so much, though, given your descriptions of how he does it so overtly to the point where it almost seems like an addiction for him.

I love reading your thread...I admire how you are working so hard to save your marriage and I think there is a lot of hope here. I hope to eventually put that kind of energy into my marriage (I'm sorry to admit that I am a FWW...but we both swept it under the rug 9 yrs ago & our marriage needs work).

Fiatflux,

I may have answered one of your previous questions too hastily.


After going to bed last night I remembered one of the reasons why my husband wanted to call for counseling. He wanted to get a PROFESSIONAL opinion on whether or not he should pursue the complete phone records.

I had brushed it off in my mind at the time because I knew that a good counselor would recommend that a husband give his wife the peace of mind she needs to end the suspicions.

I guess I could consider that STALLING. But would it be because of the effort a subpoena requires? Or are the records themselves being dodged?

He did hint that "other" suspicions could come up after receiving complete phone records, so maybe the phone records wouldn't do all that much good anyway. Was that an excuse?

It's possible the delay is for practical reasons. But what if it is not?

So I'll just wait it out. The records will do the talking.


Thank you for appreciating my struggle. It really means a lot to be able to come here and vent or think out loud and have people like you listen to me at a time when I need it.


I think you're right. Every time I feel like throwing in the towel (emotionally), my husband seems to notice my efforts, changes something in his behavior and I can see it working again.


I think it's great to have a community of both Betrayed and Wayward spouses on this forum helping each other find their way in their marriages. Getting second opinions and seeing things from another point of view must really help to sort it all out.

I know for me, I like to be thorough and when I read comments or questions by others, I keep those thoughts in the back of my mind for the future when it's time to "let go" of my own suspicions. Because of the generous contributions by people like you, my conclusion will NOT be a BLIND one.

I have watched (read) other spouses get tremendous support on this forum while trying to handle their marital crisis. I hope you and your husband are able to find that same support (and growth) here too.

Guess what?

Plan AF (As Friends) is very EFFECTIVE, and in short order!

A few days of that plan, and my husband was confiding in me how much he has taken for GRANTED something as simple as kissing me on the lips.

That's not the only thing he has taken for granted. He explained other things too. He was right. I won't go into details.

I could feel and hear his sincerity. I could tell he WANTED me for the right reasons.

He admitted he was having a hard time keeping our relationship "on hold". I admitted the same.

I gave in.

What contributed to my reasoning was that I had filled out the personality and relationship forms for Steve Harley yesterday, as we prepare for tomorrow's counseling session, and in doing so, contemplated the good things that we do have going for us - even in the midst of our problems.

What may have contributed to my husband's appreciation of me was that he, on his own initiative, finished reading Dr. Harley's chapter on sex. Then he said he really wished he would have read that chapter 23 years ago. What an eye opener for him.

So what's holding us back?

We'll soon find out (counseling).

My husband's back to his deflated hugs and empty kisses.

Why? There's NO room in his heart for me. It's just plain too CROWDED there.

He doesn't know that I now have evidence to prove to myself that he hasn't been "just looking", he's been down right HUNTING on a daily, hourly and minute basis, and he's been more of a liar (probably out of Passive/Aggressive fear) than I thought he was.

At least now I know WHY I don't have a place in his heart.

I AM sane. I have NOT been imagining things.

I just want other women to know that if they are like me and have known in their heart that something is NOT right, they can rely on their heart, because their heart WILL be right.

What happened to change everything so quickly?

Believer,

Thanks for your concern.

I have my hands tied right now. The information I just acquired is general. I can't explain anymore details if I want to keep this thread anonymous and at the same time obtain more specific information. This could take a few weeks or more.

I'm so sorry about that.

Here's somewhat of an update...

Good news:

Remember the underwear with the cat hairs in it? I finally sent it in for infidelity testing and the results came back negative.

Bad news:

Last night, I visited my husband's computer. While in his office, I decided to check his office drawers. I found some Valentine heart candies (few small containers) in one of his drawers. They didn't come from me. I know the women in the office like giving him things all the time (ladies man that he is). But does he have to put it in his office drawer?

Other news:

I found some other things in his office drawers:

1. A photo of me that he used to have on his shelf but won't put back because he says it's outdated. Well, that must mean the wedding photo in our bedroom is outdated too, but I haven't taken that down.

2. A rather large (and still full) box of Green Tea that I asked him to take out of the house since I couldn't understand why he brought it in when he doesn't even drink tea and I don't drink Green Tea.

Then this morning I get an email from him requesting the replacement photo of us for his office. I feel like he is doing that just because the romantic photos had become such a volatile issue (before Christmas).

Personally, the photo makes me sad now. I'll always remember how he didn't like it when it came in, yet it was one of my lifetime favorites. I would just rather not see it anymore and be reminded of the void in our relationship.

Also, I noticed that my husband appears to be speaking "differently" to one of his secretaries.

Normally, and as a business phone practice, he frequently speaks the caller's name during the conversation. Therefore, I always know who he is speaking with when I'm present. He doesn't do that with me as I am a personal caller.

Recently, I overheard the "too friendly" voice of one of his secretaries during a phone call to him, but he never mentioned her name during the phone call and so I asked who it was. Ever since, I've wondered if there could be an EA developing with this particular secretary.

I want to talk about the Valentine candies, the Green Tea and even boundary issues regarding one of his secretaries because my husband's going to notice that I'm bothered about something.

But Steve Harley wants me to leave the relationship building to him (Steve) and just encourage my husband with any progress that he makes.

By the way, my husband really enjoys working with Steve. Steve seems to be doing a great job.

So here I am sharing what's going on so that I can be at my best for my husband even though I have things on my mind.

Thanks for listening.

Straight from my Phone/PDA...

Back to Plan AF (As Friends).

Steve was making PROGRESS with my husband.

But once my husband realized that the phone records are important, he put our sessions with Steve and our relationship on hold until the phone issue is resolved, which could take months.

Here's what happened...

Yesterday, after his phone call with Steve, my husband came home with some of the missing phone records.

Apparently, they were sitting on his desk for well over a week even though he knew I wanted them as soon as possible.

He is unaware that I know he had the nerve to tell Steve that I didn't ask for the (follow up) records and that's why he hasn't been working on giving them to me.

Steve advised him to talk to me about the records and to have me bring up the records during my next phone call with Steve since their session time had run out.

I guess that's why my husband brought home the records that were sitting on his desk.

No wonder I have a problem trusting my husband.

My biggest challenge is trying to figure out whether this is Passive/Aggressive or Adultery behavior.

My husband also informed Steve that he was completely in love with me.

However, today my husband is acting like I have leprosy and is keeping his distance.

It was my husband's strong opinion that we put the coaching on hold.

I think it's foolish and proves that he doesn't want to partake in loving me while he works to help me find closure.

I did like it when my husband brought up the 2 things that Steve wanted him to talk to me about.

I felt like he was beginning to be Open & Honest with me.

Well, that was short-lived.

I found a few minutes, while on the road, to fill in the details of my last (Phone/PDA) post.

Also, I wanted to comment on the Valentine candies found in my husband's office drawer.

We talked about it last night. He said the candies came from his secretary. I figured that.

But this is not the secretary that was going to go on a day trip with him or the secretary that speaks "too friendly" on the phone to him. This is another secretary.

He said that it was just sloppy behavior on his part to have kept the Valentine candies in his drawer.

He just didn't want to hurt his secretary's feelings since she is the one who empties his wastebasket.

That was sloppy behavior alright. He chose to protect his secretary's feelings over his wife's feelings.

Yup. That's to be expected. Doesn't matter if it's with employees or relatives. Wife comes last.

We talked about protecting our marriage and respecting boundaries.

I think that's when he began to not be interested. I dropped it.

Here are more bits and pieces from the road...

My husband appears to be warming up today. Or was that because we had visited with a friend while working on a project?

I hope he's going to let me know whether or not he completed the cancellation of my appointment with Steve tomorrow morning and our joint session next week.

I didn't receive a text message, email message or anything in person from my husband before we began traveling today, but I know he contacted Steve about it this morning.

I do want to say that while working with Steve, my husband seemed to be sincere in working on a strategy.

I made a point to patiently listen to my husband and compliment him on his strategy even though it contained some disturbing details for me personally.

I hope he's not going to put his strategy on hold too.

Why can't Observing get more input from you veterans? Is it because her case is so un-cookie-cutter-like? Does it have to be a clear-cut case of adultery for people to help? What's up with this? I think she would welcome some insights...I wish some of the overabundance of energy on LilSis' thread could be transferred over here...! LilSis needs a break from y'all anyway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FF-

I think that Observing isn't getting a lot of help because there really isn't much more anyone can offer on her situation. I've posted my thoughts on this thread...that she's either married to one of the best cover up artists this side of a spy that I've seen, or that this isn't tied to actually infidelity, but other underlying issues in their marriage.

It's clear that there are some major issues in Observering's marital situation...no argument there. But at this point, I don't know what advice to offer, given the pages of information she's provided on her efforts to find an affair and still no 'proof'. I suspect that the 'real' experts are just as baffled.

Observring, I'm curious...based on what you've seen/done up to this point...how do YOU see this working out? Remember my question about what "proof" you need to decide finally if there is an affair or not? Where does that factor into this?

It seems that you're still convinced that he IS engaged in an affair...but still have no true PROOF.

So what steps do YOU see should happen if you can't get that proof? What's your gameplan if you never get that proof? What changes do you think will have to happen for you to be comfortable in your marriage?

Again, not judging here...but if you can't prove it, then you're going to have to make a choice at some point to pick a plan of action for dealing with the state of your marriage without that proof.

I appreciate your input, Owl.

And I certainly understand how hard it is for others to give me advice without having "proof" to stand on.

I have felt that my friends here at MB have been waiting, like me, to see if there is proof, before voicing important advice.

I have noticed that everyone here has been very objective about it. That's to be admired and gives more credibility to the members.

I also like to see this thread as a journal, which can be used for documentation or for just plain SANITY purposes when necessary.

Yes, I like getting replies, as Fiatflux suggested, but I also realize that replies may or may not come every time I have (so many) thoughts to share.

Right now, I am just going through the motions.

That is, I would like to see my husband's complete phone records so that I never have to look back and wonder IF there was something that I missed.

The problem right now has been his OBSTINATE behavior over the records (and other things).

It was not enough for him that I had feelings and needed reassurance from him. He had to get a professional OPINION before even giving me the batch of records that was already available on his desk.

This kind of game playing doesn't help me to drop the suspicions. I think it increases them.

Otherwise, I am getting closer to living with a husband that has curbed his lustful appetite in front of his wife.

I think I can live with his behavior if I keep a log (as explained in an earlier post): every time he hurts me with his lustful behavior, I can log a week of abstinence for both of us.

This seems to be a better plan than expecting him to completely break the habit in the near future.

What's more, this plan doesn't leave ME with all the pain.

I think there should be consequences for his actions or I am going to end up with another Sexual Aversion toward him.

I want to maintain my self respect.

I don't like it when he invalidates my feelings. For example, he told Steve that he thought I was "more sensitive" than the average woman on this issue.

That's an EXCUSE.

What he's forgetting is that I let his lustful behavior ROLL OFF MY BACK for 23 years. But it got WORSE, not better, and to the point that I thought he was having an Affair.

Right now, I still think that he COULD have had or is having multiple Emotional Affairs. That is the latest suspicion that I have to work through.

He adamantly denies it.

But his strategy, even though he didn't think he would be sharing it with me when he wrote it, clearly shows that he could have been relying on particular women or certain occasions to fulfill his habit.

I think a good understanding of marriage boundaries will help him with this. But I can't be the one to help him. He'll need to hear it from Steve, or read it out of a book.

So once I get the complete phone records, I can sort through them and find closure with that.

But see how much effort it has taken to get those? Any wife in her right mind would wonder why the struggle.

I did finally take Lousy Golfer's advice and asked my husband what he found attractive about a particular woman.

My husband said "I don't know" and that he would have to think about it and get back with me later.

Then hardly a minute later, he said "I don't want to talk about that" and outright REFUSED to talk about it at all or at anytime.

But if he really wanted to be Open & Honest with me, to help me build trust in him again, I would think he would TELL ALL. Otherwise, how will I know whether or not he is being honest with me?

All in all, if I don't find proof with the phone records, I will assume that he was PLAYING WITH FIRE on the slippery slope of Emotional Affairs, but probably didn't burn his fingers, and that with good protection in place for our marriage, we can work it out.

Then I will go back to reading about Passive/Aggressive behavior.

Thanks for asking.

Observing,

I'm not very familar with your whole thread and I am by no means an expert. Have you thought about hiring a PI?
Although my WH is having his 2nd affair... he made me feel like I was going crazy last summer. The PI had info for me in 3-4 days with pictures. It was the best 500.00 dollars I spent it hurt like ****** to find out but also gave me peace of mind that I could trust my gut.

Just an idea.

Still

Stillhurting01,

Hi there, and thanks for stopping by.

Oh! I really should hire a Private Investigator (PI), shouldn't I?

I've been running back and forth to his computer so much, trying to get the keylogger to work correctly again, that I haven't had time to think about a PI.

I did manage to upgrade my digital voice recorder (the last one failed me on the battery length), and it has helped me know more TRUTH about what's going on in my husband's mind.

The snooping that I have done successfully has been invaluable for my peace of mind. I wonder how a PI could contribute. I'd almost need the PI to show up at my husband's work place.

I am so HAPPY that you found the information you needed on your husband. I am SO SORRY that it was another Affair and the evidence was so painful for you.

Yes, a PI is a very good idea!

Did you have your husband watched at work, on a trip or what? What is your recommendation on WHEN to have the PI watch him?

Isn't it amazing how a husband can make you feel so crazy? That should be a suspicion in itself!

Observing are you ready for a novel?

Let me tell you about last spring and summer. I apoligise in advance for the length.

I have come to rely on my gut feelings after my husbands first affair. I did a lot of detective work on my own for that one. I wa able to find out her name where she worked and lived. I actually was pretty good at it. Look at phone and cell phone bills. He really wasn't a pro at cheating it was very easy to find.

Fast forward to last year. I began to get the awful feeling in my gut again. Asked if there was someone else he denied. Had always said I won't go through that again so please be truthful.
When the May bill came in for our cell phone family plan I notice we were billed for 150 text messages.... this was something we never had on our plan. I thought it was our younger DD texting her BF... she was going out the door with oldest DD and I said D what's with all the TM's. Older DD came and looked at the bill and said mom that's not D that's daddy.

I called WH on his way to work and asked him about it and he just said it's how people at work get a hold of him and he wouldn't do it anymore. My detective bells started going off. That weekend was father's day and he was running a softball tournament. Monday he was still in bed and I checked his cell and there were 2 sent messages to the same # saying call me on Sat and Sun that past weekend. I went to our provider and asked for the TM printout. I knew I couldn't get what was being texted but I could get the number. They called the home office and the woman gets back on the phone and told me they were all to the same # and she read off the same #. I thought my knees were going to buckle.
On my way home I called WH and demanded to know who the he!! was she. He said it was someone from work... I tols him he better tell me who. He didn't want me to say anything to her. I said just tell me who. He did and said those famous words... we're just friends. She is having problems with the girls at work....(me) do you think it's cause she F***ing the boss. My language was not the best. She's having problems with her H... (me) she should be talking to her H not you. I mentioned it sounded like it was becoming an emotional affair. He said it would stop.
That day I ordered the printout and bought a voice activated recorder to put in his truck. I'm not very mecahnical and ould never get it to work. I hid it because he came into the bedroom and I was trying to figure it out.
He was leaving in the mornings coming home late and after getting home he would have to run out and get gas. He was showing all the signs he did with his previous A.
I looked in the phone book and found out where she lived with her H. Just about a mile from us. And began to check up to see if I could see her. I have met her once when she first started working for my H because she lived in our town. One morning I left right after he did and went to get coffee at DD and noticed she was also gone.... she had no reason to go to work early my H was going in early to get to his e-mails. ( I can feel the anxiety coming back from that time). I thought should I.... so I drove down and his car wasn't there and neither was hers. I lost it and called my mom and went to the other side of the parking lot. Twenty minutes later my WH drives in and she is right behind him. My mom kept telling me don't confront them remeber the lady who ran over her H.
That night I asked him about it... I got now you're following me. It was just a coincidence. I asked if her H was aware of all the calls, TM's and the coincidence of arriving at work early? He was cool as a cucumber. It's amazing how lying becomes second nature.
That's when I hired the PI... I knew her name, where she worked her car and license plate number.
That following day the PI was at the parking lot.... guess what she was right behind him again. Two days later I asked if he could follow him from my house. There is a small restaruant by my house that is open that early that H has to drive by. The next day they were going to follow him. I wished so much that I was wrong. The call came when I was at my DD soccer game... they were meeting at a boat landing on the way to work. She was waiting for him. They got pictures and they were there about 30 minutes and when she left the vehicle she was adjusting her clothes. That afternoon got the pictures and expose to OWH and their employer.

If you want more of the drama I can fill you in. Oh yeah and about the recorder WH found it. Sent me a nasty e-mail that I recorded 6 hours of him and where did I put. I didn't even realise it was on. He must of been panicking.. the only thing that would be recorded if my panties were getting it on. He listened to 6 hours of nothing.

Still

Yes, Stillhurting01, please share more of your drama. I want to learn as much as I can. Thank you!

If looks could kill, I'd be dead.

After my husband came home from work tonight, I complimented him on the success he had with finding an attorney, being able to get phone records from the company within 3 months and getting pricing for changing phone companies and phones.

Apparently, he didn't think it was a success even though he had emailed me the information as though it was progress.

So I questioned him on why this success for me was not a success for him.

He glared at me like never before and grumbled something about the cost (which is absolutely NOTHING compared to what I've spent on spy tools).

I'm sick over the way he looked at me. I left the room, thinking there's no way he's going to win my heart with that kind of behavior.

I can't post again until Friday. Leaving with the kids tomorrow. Have to add fresh batteries to the vehicle tracker and the voice recorder tonight, because he's going out of town (attorney) too.

observing,

Just checking in with you this morning. I'll share more of my story but like I told you previously it's not a success story.....YET.

Need to run off to IC. Have a great day.

Still

Stillhurting01,


I understand.

And I hope your situation becomes a success story.

After listening to part of your story, I'm thinking maybe I should put a spy camera in the main office to see how my husband interacts with his "too friendly" secretary.

Things I would be looking for are winks from him, or a touch on the shoulder, things like that.

I feel like he could easily carry on an Emotional Affair with a secretary because he wouldn't have to use his phone or computer to communicate.

He would only need to have a meeting or drop a note on her desk.

That's how my father did it.

My mother told me that one day she and my father found a note from his secretary on the windshield of his car that was parked in his workplace parking lot.

She said she knew by his reaction and what the note said that something was happening between the two of them.

I never found out if it had become physical or not, but I think it ended after that note.

I knew my mother was onto something because before the note episode, my father had come to visit me and I seriously wondered WHY he had suddenly become perfectly trim and fit for no apparent reason.

My mother complained because his secretary was no beauty queen.

I'm afraid his secretary just heaped on the praise and it broke down my father's walls.

Getting back to my husband's office...

They could see each other daily. He could make her feel cherished and she could admire him to the point of death.

The reason my suspicions are building up with this secretary is because she is the only secretary that my husband doesn't call by name while on the phone.

I just heard him talk to a different secretary the day before yesterday and he called her by name like he always does.

Why should one secretary get different treatment?

The first time I met this secretary was a few years ago and I later commented to my husband how uncomfortable she appeared to be when I met her.

I just thought she was an insecure person. Some people are that way. But now I'm having second thoughts.

I think a spy camera could give me more peace of mind.

Problem is, how many will I have to buy to get the right one?

My voice recorder battery failed me yesterday, but the vehicle tracking appeared to be accurate.

I don't like the battery devices. Can't they make more recharging devices?

I think I blew out my historical vehicle tracker because I inserted rechargeable batteries (got tired of buying regular batteries).

The batteries must have been overcharged (I took them out of the charger promptly) because the tracker started blinking out of control.

Good thing my real-time vehicle tracker was soon to arrive.

Oh, how I hate having to play detective all the time!

At least now if I get caught snooping, my husband will know the reason why. Before, I was really worried as to what I would say if I were to get caught.

Lousy Golfer had given me a good thing to say: that (by snooping) I was CONFIRMING my husband's words.

Not only do I have to hide my snooping from him, but I have to hide it from my intelligent children who notice everything.

Here I am snooping on my husband and my daughter is snooping on me (trying to figure out what I'm doing).

I think that's why I have fumbled so many times and botched a number of important snooping occasions.

I'm sure my husband is wondering why I need to check his computer so often.

I have had to re-adjust the keylogger settings multiple times (problem with not having a test version on my own computer), try to get the reports sent on the correct schedule (maintain persistent connection) and uncheck the computer's secure email connection that would not allow me to have ANY email copies at all.

It has been one complication after another.

I think it's because my husband has changed computer settings because of the new firewall that his ISP had installed about the same time I had installed the keylogger.

So, I must appear to be magnetically drawn to his computer these days!

I keep thinking every trip is going to be my last trip.

Get this. One of my sons quipped with the following comment one night before I left for my husband's computer:

"Off to the night shift?"

I'm laughing as I type this. What a great sense of humor!

Last night, I went to bed. I wasn't mad. I was DONE.

Couldn't believe a married man could claim to love his wife and be so unfriendly.

I was just shaking my head. Is he for real?

Does he really think I'm going to be in love with him when this (phone record collection) is done?

When he came to bed, I didn't respond to what I considered a stupid good-night gesture: partial handshake.

I figured, why pretend we're friends, a minute before going to sleep, when he's been acting like I'm his enemy for days.

This is how the conversation went:

Him: Don't you want to say good-night?
Me: Email me.
Him: What do you mean by that?
Me: If you want to talk, email me.

I said this because I knew it was not a good time to start what would become a very long and possibly emotional conversation at bedtime (when we're both tired).

He gets up and turns the light on.

Him: Can't we say good-night?
Me: Why (should we)? You don't even love me anymore!
Him: Please don't say that...I do love you...

Apparently, my victim role (you don't love me) appealed to him. I had never spoken that way before.

He suddenly became affectionate (I did not respond) and we exchanged short sentences back and forth followed by some lengthy excuses on his part.

I told him he was acting like he hated me. I felt like I was his enemy.

He became defensive, so I reminded him that he didn't want to know how I felt. He apologized.

At one point, he was trying to justify why he was treating me that way regarding his business and the process of getting the phone records.

Me: That's a poor excuse.
Him: (he agreed)

Me: You're treating me like when...(and I mentioned a painful topic related to our marriage vows that was also the heart of our marriage problems until it was resolved before I began posting at this website).

Him: I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?
Me: How will I know you're sorry?
Him: I will treat you better.

Last night was the first time in our marriage that I felt like taking off my wedding ring.

The only reason I didn't was because I wanted to be a good example for my children.

Me: I should give my wedding ring to...(his business).
Him: What do you mean by that?
Me: That's your true wife.

I explained how he chooses his career status over his wife's feelings.

Later the conversation went like this:

Him: Are you giving up on me?
Me: You have already given up on me.

I asked him why he always waits for me to "walk away" before he'll do anything to help our relationship.

He shared how frustrated he was over my lack of trust in him and how getting the phone records reminds him of my suspicions.

Me: What caused me to not trust you?
Him: (acknowledgement that he caused it)

I explained to him that the way he's been treating me doesn't help me to trust him. In fact, it makes me trust him less. And that he's PUNISHING me for wanting reassurance, wanting to trust him.

I remained calm and detached through the entire conversation.

Everything (my words) came out in calculated, one-liners (not like me).

I didn't even want him to touch me, although I didn't say that, and he continued to touch me.

I just wanted to go to sleep.

If talking was so important, why didn't it happen earlier?

Why couldn't it have happened when I greeted him at the door with a smile, or after dinner or at least through email during the day?

This is how the conversation ended:

Him: Will you forgive me?
Me: If I forgive you, you'll take me for a fool again.

Him: What would you like me to do?
Me: Get some sleep and email me in the morning.

He turned over. Before falling asleep, I thought I heard tears.

But there is NO OTHER WAY to get him to warm up to me and respect our relationship.

What I like about what happened during our conversation is that Steve must have had an impact on him.

My husband asked for forgiveness, which he never does (but I always volunteer it), and asked me what I would like him to do (and he did it).

Maybe there is underlying progress going on. We'll see.

Observing,

There is alot of information for me to mull over. If you can get a hidden camara into his office that would be great. Does he own the business?

My WH was wh**e boss. I have heard the both were acting very suspicouis. Like when anyone would go into my WH office he would minimize computer screen, or hang up the phone real quick. Apparently the MOW would do the same when anyone came near her cubicle.

They were meeting before work and arriving together also. So I don't think it was any big surprise there. Do you have anyone there that could "spy" for you? Right now I have a source... a friend of a friend of a friend.

Kids can also be very perceptive... my oldest DD became clued in on her own.

I'm wondering if you should lay low and plan A while being detective. That way it may throw him off a little. Because if he is having an affair he just may go deeper. Although I'd let the experts handle that.

If you do get a PI you need to be prepared for the answers... I have pictures fortunately you can't see what they are doing just their cars and where they were. My WH doesn't know that though. When I got the final report from the PI he told me he would testify if needed. I told him I thought you couldn't really see anything he replied we could hear them. My WH tried to make me believe they were there just to talk. I called him for another reason and then told him oh last week at the boat landing you were not talking you could be heard... you're a pig. I then hung up. He called me a little later and said you must be diappointed in me... NAW I'm so proud. I told him he disgusts me. Just LB a little.

Still

Today, my husband sent me an email:

He admitted that he was abusing me and that he should love me.

He asked for mercy, to not give up on him, that he wants to make it up to me somehow and to give him another chance and accept his apology.

I replied:

"Yes, I want God to give me another chance, so I will give you another chance."

Turns out that my husband will be getting a better deal for his business with the new phone company and the new phones will pay for themselves within the first year.

He can approach his business sibling with the phone change as being "cost effective, with better records and nearly the same coverage".

I can't believe how fast the phone issue is progressing – lightening fast.

So what was all the complaining about?

Stillhurting01,


Yes, he's part owner of the business and knows that I go to his office for computer checking now. My "copying and faxing" days ran out quickly.


Like your husband, my husband has been known to go to work early, leave late and then go back to work for a few minutes or a little while - for years.

This is what I find VERY INTERESTING about your situation.

I always thought my husband was a workaholic - I guess he could be. But then again...


Yes, my best girlfriend. But I would have to "let the cat out of the bag" that I have suspicions in the first place.

If she knew I had suspicions, she could never look at my husband in the eyes and she might feel pressure to quit the job. She's sensitive that way and honest as the day is long.

Anyone else would be a trumpet for gossip in this town.


I think you're right.

And in that case, I may have already blown it by letting him know that I'm watching. But I just couldn't hold up anymore. I was splitting at the seams.

So to lay low, I would have to kick back, enjoy life with the kids, stop the relationship talk and try to be happy.

By the time we started coaching with Steve, I had felt like I had reached burn out. I was getting depressed and couldn't smile anymore.

I had to come to terms with what I wanted to do with my life. I kept asking myself: Who are YOU and where are YOU going?

I acted on it and quickly snapped out of the depression.

I guess that is what Plan A is all about.

I didn't realize until months later that Plan A doesn't consist of relationship talk. So I kind of ruined it that way.

I really appreciate your time and the helpful things you have given me to think about and work on.

Take care.

Observing,

I don't think you have failed at Plan A... your H e-mailed you and wanted forgiveness. That says alot to me. Unfortunately my H didn't do that at all.

My WH is also a workaholic.... it use to upset me that he cared more for his employees than he did for his own family. He woud get angry when I said that but that's how I felt. This past summer I thought he was putting in 12 hour days.... little did I know. He barely spent any time with our children. Oh last summer was horrible, it hurts just thinking about it.

Your friend that works in the office could you maybe broach the subject that things seem a little off between you and H. Ask Is there anything going on at work that maybe he's not telling you?

Are you still coaching with SH? I think that's great that you H will do that.
Also do you think you're H may be suffering from a little bit of depression? Depression runs in my WH's family and I really think he has depression but is so stubborn.

I can tell you the signs that gave me red flags that he may be involved with someone..

Never wanted to be near me.

Almost falling off the edge of the bed so he wouldn't be near me.

Rejection whenever I tried to intiate SF.

When we would go out with friends he would have his back to me.

The tone of his voice and the look he would give me when he talked to me.

Those were my red flags.

Still

Stillhurting01,

I want to make a list of all the things I've learned from you. Then check it off as I do them.

It's great to have fresh ideas to work with, things that I may not have considered yet.


That's right. And I'm trying to count my blessings.

I hope what he did is for real, and not done out of fear.

I'm sure it doesn't help to have read on this website that a husband begged for forgiveness and received it – only to go on to the next Affair, or that a wife forgave and was given diamond jewelry before her husband cheated on her again, or that Sexual Fulfillment had increased during an Affair so that the wife wouldn't be suspicious.

I keep these things in the back of my mind and try to be ready for anything.


Oh, you have just hit on a raw nerve. You couldn't have said it better.


Sometimes I think that if it wasn't for avoiding me, he wouldn't spend ANY time with our children, other than mealtime and when we plan family activities which the kids and I are responsible for.

When my oldest son was about 16 years old, I heard him answer his older sister, who was standing right next to me, about what Dad thought on the subject. His answer was, "He never talks to me about anything".

It was a sad moment of realization for us. I felt like saying, "Me too". But I held my tongue and hurt deeply for him.


I'm so very, very sorry.


Yes, absolutely! Now why didn't I think of that? I'll get to work on that.


Uh, well…we WERE.

But my husband put the coaching ON HOLD. I posted details on this (about one page back).

I did tell Steve that I had to take the "bull by the horns" to get my husband to be WILLING to work on our relationship.

We have plans to return to coaching in about 3 months, after the rest of the phone records arrive. I wonder how that's going to work out.

If it doesn't, I might pay for my own Individual Counseling with Steve.


Depression is a possibility.

I know his sister attempted suicide once, so depression could run in his family.

I just thought I was dealing with pessimism (or a bad attitude) all the time.

I even concocted my own phrase about his pessimism:

"The only time a pessimist is an optimist is when he claims to be a realist."

(pause…waiting to hear laughter)

Do you think people who have depression are more likely to have affairs?


Now that's an understatement.

Our husband's heritage must be from the same country! I don't dare mention any more…otherwise I might lose some anonymity.


I really appreciate your list of red flags. As I look at each one, the following are ones that I would like to comment on…

Red flag:


My first reaction would have been, no, he has never turned down Sexual Fulfillment.

But there were times he tried verbally talking me out of it, not sure why.

This happened while we were working on the MB Home Study Course within the last 6 months.

Red flag:


On one of our romantic dinners out (Recreational Companionship), my husband told me that he likes to get out of town…uh, so that nobody recognizes him.

That sounded awful to me, and I was confused, thinking: Does he not want to be seen with ME, his wife?

I put the thought out of my mind thinking that it was crazy. But if he had a relationship locally, getting out of town with his wife would be a relief, right?

Do you know what? I have been thinking this whole time that if he had a relationship it would be out of town. So here I turn on the vehicle tracker when he leaves town.

That's way too narrow-minded isn't it?

It's been mentioned before on my thread that an Affair could easily occur locally. But not until I read your posts, did I realize how it could happen in MY situation.

Red flag:


For me, it's the way he LOOKS or DOESN'T LOOK at me.

I knew it was related to marital problems, but not until last summer did I think it could have ANYTHING to do with a relationship outside our marriage.

So basically, you may be saying that the red flags are the way he TREATED you.

That's what I've been concerned about all these months – the way he's treating me.

Oh, Fiatflux, while scrambling to type more posts, I failed to thank you for bumping up my thread. Thank you!

Observing,

I'm glad I was helpful... it makes me feel like I'm giving back for all the great advice I have recieved here. I pray that your H isn't having an A. I wouldn't eish this on anyone.

When you mentioned about going out of town for dinners... I'll just tell you something that may ease your mind. My WH was a retail pharmacist and used to work in town. He would prefer to go out of town when we went out so he didn't run into customers. Therefore we could have a peaceful dinner.
Now I'm not sure the profession that your H is in but if he works with the public that may be the reason.... not that he doesn't want to be seen with you.

I'm trying to think of other red flags.... it just seems so long ago.

One was that when he would get calls on his cell he would walk away from me.

Another is he seemed to be looking for any excuse to get out of the house..
I need to go fill up the truck (meanwhile he just got back from work)

I feel bad for my kids... I know he was away from home alot to avoid me. I hope they don't hate me for that some day.

The depression thing... men show different symptoms of depression than woman do. I went to a semnar right after my Wh first A. I wish I could find the handout. I thought this is my husband. Men seem to be more angry is the thing that stuck out in my mind the most. My WH always seemed so angry.

The thing with my WH co-workers.. is he wold listen to all thier problem and try to fix it....it was like look at us we are having problems that need to be fixed.

I would recommend to continue to council with Steve harley if you can afford it... even if H doesn't. He is the expert here.

About the SF... it was only this past year that he started to reject me. He told me he always thought we had a great sex life.

Keep updating .... I hope we're wrong about an A.

Still

Stillhurting01,

I did what you advised.

I contacted (via email) my friend and casually blended in the question with the conversation we already had going.

I said this:

"I'd like to say that I'm doing fine, but things seem a little off between me and my husband. By chance is there anything going on at work that maybe he's not telling me or that I should know about?"

I've heard nothing from her. No yea. No nay. Nothing.

What to think of that?

Things are rather calm right now.

I've been enjoying Plan AF (As Friends).

There is minimal communication (no relationship talk), so there's no strife.

There are no expectations (fidelity of the heart), so there's no hurt (feelings).

I've been doing fun, worthwhile things with the kids.

I got back into an OPTIMISTIC mode in my life.

Actually feeling great!

Not what you call happily married, but better than what it was.

Actually, we did tap into one event on our relationship:

I kindly, but directly asked my husband to stop sending me half-dead flower bouquets for Valentine's Day.

I was going to talk to Steve Harley about the best approach for this, but my husband had canceled my session while we await the complete phone records.

This flower request didn't sit well with my husband, although he knows exactly what he did on the last few Valentine's Days.

Since I finally realized what was going on, I used what I learned on Passive/Aggressive behavior to deal with it: straight talk, set limits, drop it, and move on.

Worked great!

Spooky!

I think this story is worth telling even though I am still in Plan AF (As Friends).

Last night, my husband and I were coming home from a day with the kids (monthly project).

Before we got home but AFTER working hours, my husband gets a phone call on his cell phone.

He doesn't mention the person's name, so it's easy for me to guess who it is.

When I casually ask him, "Who's that?" he says the name of his secretary with the "too friendly" voice.

Okay, I predicted right.

My next prediction was that he would need to go back to work after we got home instead of take care of the issue in the morning.

We get home and he doesn't take his jacket off and get comfortable in the house.

Instead, he hangs around outside and then starts filling up a bucket of water.

What's he going to do? It appears he's going to wash a vehicle.

That's right. He gets ready to wash the NEW car that I bought (one of my positive endeavors as I try to get on with life).

But is it a good time for washing a car? It's almost dark. Apparently it is.

I could tell he was STALLING. He didn't want to appear in a hurry to run down to his office or bother to mention his plans to me in the first place.

You see, as we had passed by his workplace on our way home (and after I had asked who was on the phone), I looked for possible clues and noticed a sporty vehicle parked outside his workplace and saw that the lights were on in the building.

So naturally, I eavesdropped (from inside our house) as he chatted with our youngest son who usually helps to wash vehicles.

That's how I learned that he had planned to go to his office after the car was washed.

So I conveniently showed up outside about the time he was finished washing the car, to say thank you (first washing) and be ready to volunteer to go with them to the office.

I generally don't volunteer myself to go with him on a trip to the office.

But I wanted to see if he would turn me down and if so, at what force it could happen.

I also wanted to see the look on his secretary's face once I showed up in the office with him - provided she would be there like I thought she would be.

But he didn't get ready to leave.

Instead, he began washing ANOTHER vehicle. My son had to turn the outside lights on for him.

Why is he washing vehicles in the dark? Don't remember seeing that before.

I went back into the house and did more eavesdropping on his plans for the night.

When he was done washing the second vehicle and hosing off the carport (the whole process lasted about an hour), I stepped outside for "a walk" which I have been known to take in the evenings since our property allows for this.

As he walked toward his vehicle to LEAVE, he broke the news (last minute) to me that he and our son were going to the office for "a few minutes".

I said, "Okay, I'll come with you" and then skipped over to the vehicle and hopped in.

I can't remember my husband saying much as he had approached his vehicle, but he was quiet and looking at the ground.

He didn't refuse my self invitation. But then again, if he did, wouldn't that make it obvious he didn't want me to go?

We went to the office together. The sporty vehicle was still parked outside and the main office lights were still on. Just like I thought they would be.

As we approached the main office door, my husband UNMISTAKABLY looks through the nearby office window, directly toward his secretary's room which is located across the hall with the light on, but doesn't see her there.

If I were to guess what he was thinking, I would say that it was more like "what is her condition" rather than "who is here tonight".

I'm right behind him, dressed like I want to be and ready to flash a friendly, confident smile and watch her reaction.

Upon entering the office, my husband briskly walks over to the locked bookkeeper's room. He unlocks it and walks in. I follow right behind him, along with our son (who later runs back and forth to the snack jar at the receptionist's desk).

I'm feeling rather awkward at the moment though.

Then his secretary walks into the office. So she WAS there like I thought she would be!

Not good. It was surreal, actually.

She came from an area within the building where we did not expect to see her.

I walk out to greet her, knowing that this moment could be revealing. She did well, and I can't say that she had a problem with me being there.

But my husband did. He was visibly uncomfortable.

I hope so. I was there to witness what he never bothered to tell me.

I watch his eyes as the two of them briefly speak about office matters. He makes brief eye contact with her knowing that I'm watching him like a bold HAWK (first time at that too).

Every time she spoke, I would watch HIM (not her) and his reaction to her. I could tell he didn't want to speak to her under those conditions.

After a few sentences, he asks her in front of me, why is it that she's working late at the office (Gee, shouldn't he have asked her that over the phone?). She gives what appears to be a valid reason.

He then signs a check and leaves the bookkeeper's room. But he forgets to close the bookkeeper's door behind him. He catches himself and goes back to close the door and locks it.

Meanwhile I'm saying goodbye to his secretary, who had since claimed that she took care of the other reason he came to the office (explaining perhaps why she wasn't at her desk when we arrived).

She tells him that the other secretary needs a copy of the signed check, but he dismisses the procedure and leaves it for the other secretary to complete in the morning.

He just wants to get out of there!

We leave the building and immediately after stepping outside my husband begins to explain "that's why" she was at the office.

Yeah, right. And I'm supposed to believe that?

I hardly said a word.

I knew it was her on the phone. I knew he would go to the office that night, even though he was totally stalling beforehand. I knew she would be there when he got there - after hours. And she was.

What a spooky feeling.

Here I was standing in the middle of a scene that was going to happen without my knowledge had I not suspected something and jumped into his vehicle to go with him.

Okay, if my husband doesn't want me to be suspicious about those kinds of things, what should he have done?

After receiving his phone call, he SHOULD HAVE told me that his secretary was at the office working late because of this reason and that reason, and that he needed to go back to his office after we got home to help her, and ask me if I would like to go with him.

That's what he should have done!

But no, do weird things and make your wife more suspicious than ever.

Is that his philosophy for building trust?

What now?

I'm feeling very sick to my stomach today.

Observing,

I don't know but red flags are jumping up all over the place.

Something smells fishy here.

Have you heard from your friend who works with him? If not it might be time to cinfide in her.

Just my opinion.

Still

Stillhurting01,

Thank you for your concern and compassion.

Yes, I have contacted my friend. But apparently she has not received the email (chose this option so that my facial expression didn't give me away).

I'll have to reconsider sending another email or speaking with her in person. If she did receive the email and doesn't want to touch this subject, then I don't want to push the issue. We'll see.

On another subject, I have wanted to post on your Plan B thread. However, at this time I don't feel like I have the experience to give you advice.

But I can say that my heart goes out to you, my prayers are with you, and I hope your Plan B turns out for the better.

I can't breathe.

I emailed my husband today (talking in person is not working right now) about our "spooky" trip to his office the other night.

I said to him:

"The other night after you received a phone call while driving home with your family and then didn't bother to tell your wife that you were going to (the office) until the very last minute, I felt like you had secretly gone down to meet your mistress after hours and behind my back, had I not volunteered to take the trip with you".

He replied to me:

"I didn't realize until this week about the suspicions you have about my "mistress" but did realize it after you came along. I don't have a mistress and never have".

What?

You mean he didn't know that I would suspect something (after all these months of working on our marriage) if his secretary called him after hours from the office and then he delayed meeting her for over an hour because he was washing vehicles at home in the dark to distract me from noticing the trip he was about to take without letting me know until last minute?

No wonder I can't breathe.

Until today, and with one exception, I haven't been doing any relationship talk during my Plan AF (As Friends).

He was taken aback when I announced that I planned to file a "separate" income tax return. We have always filed "joint" returns.

I was so tired of waiting for him to bring home the tax information (last minute) and no longer wanted to support the huge (and still growing) spending corruption by his business sibling.

What's more, now he can't blame me for increasing his tax rate. He can have all the dependents (except me) and pay his own tax rate!

Out of courtesy (that I am not getting from him lately), I let him know what I was planning to do (file separate) next week, but left the option open to file either way.

He didn't like the fact that I wanted to file separate.

Then he started bringing up our relationship. I gave in to "relationship talk". We briefly discussed some things.

That's why, and because it was related to the conversation, I brought up the subject about the "spooky" trip to the office the other night (explained above).

I'm happy to be able to come hear and vent. Speak to someone out there. Maintain my composure.

He didn't look good when he came home from his half day at work today. He looked rather guilty, actually. But then again, I'm suspicious.

He left for the day (planned event). I have him tracked and voiced (provided the battery doesn't fail me again).

I think I can breathe again.

Thanks for listening.

Have you thought about asking the secretary point blank if something is going on between her and your husband? I have no idea if that's a good idea to do, though....probably not.

I just can't believe what a tough nut your husband is to crack. I truly was starting to think he wasn't involved in an Affair ... but now it's starting to look like he is.

Obs, would you please explain *exactly* what you mean by Plan "As Friends" and *exactly* why you are doing this? I looked back through your thread but you never spelled it out.
Mulan

Observing,

Thanks for your thoughts and prayers it does mean alot to me.

First and foremost you need to find out what is going on. You're going to drive yourself crazy... I know I was there last spring and summer. And your H is just goinf to help drive you there. At this point at least to me I think he's lying and/or hiding something.

Call your friend and talk to her... if she doesn't want to get involved she will tell you... you need to know.

Honey breathe you have to find out....

By threatening to file separately you are NOT meeting one of his needs. It has scared him. Good.

Then let him know that he isn't doing enough to restore your trust in him and that's why he has to file his own.

Expect him to whine. You have a glass of real good wine when he does this and just watch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Then let him know that HIS actions are what YOU are using to come to the conclusions you have. This will freak him out because if he is having an A, he knows his actions are causing you doubt. If he isn't having an A, he ought t/b wondering what he needs to do to fix himself so you can trust him again. Either way, you don't have to do much....plant the seeds of doubt and need, then wait. Have a nice glass of wine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Fiatflux,

Sometimes I feel like I'm dealing with a big, black, shiny, huffing, puffing bull.

Mulan,

In a nutshell, my Plan AF (As Friends) means that we are living as friends and not as lovers (sex) even though we are married.

This is the only way I know how to protect myself from being mistreated by him.

I am waiting for him to earn my trust, which he is not doing a good job with.

We also happen to be waiting for the rest of the cell phone records which required a subpoena and a couple more months of time.

Stillhurting01,

The one and only thing I am AFRAID of is to go outside my marriage to confide in someone else in case I'm wrong.

But you're right, if I don't get information, I'm going to go crazy.

Actually, I have something that I repeat daily, nearly hourly, to help me get through this and it has been helping:

"Let him go. He doesn't want to love you. He doesn't belong to you anyway."

Whether it's true or not, it puts me in the right frame of mind.

Then I come back with this (to myself):

"Who are YOU? And where are YOU going?"

It's been helping me to take care of myself and the kids without hardly any Love Busting.

I will seriously consider a one-on-one visit with my friend. The time has probably come.

Unfortunately, he will never do this unless he has a very good and compelling reason to do so - in other words, unless and until there are consequences and discomfort to losing your trust, he simply will not care.

It would be nice if he would want to regain your trust because it would make YOU feel better, but you can be sure he will never do it for that reason.

What boundaries do you have in place to further protect yourself?
Mulan

Orchid,

Your post gave me so much confidence. I can't wait to have my glass of wine.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Put an umbrella in it and add a spritzer! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Mulan,


Could you give me some examples to get me started on the right track with an answer? Do you mean where I draw the line to have a protected relationship? Or how we are setup with finances and such?

Looking forward to hearing from you...

Orchid,


I can't believe how well you predicted my husband's response as I savored my glass of wine last night.

For one, it was the first time he didn't join me with a glass of wine of his own!

Two, I received an email from him this morning about making a decision on taxes so that he and his accountant can get the information together. Uh-huh, now that it might affect his pocket book, it is important to get the tax information together.

Third, also in his email was a clue to his psych…

He said:

"I hope you went back to sleep this morning. I don't know why I reached over and touched you, I just had this sudden feeling you were gone."

How sad. That did pull on my heart strings.

I don't like what I just found.

Now that I know WHO (secretary with the "too friendly" voice) to focus on, I found 2 flirty emails in my husband's Sent Email folder from a couple years ago.

He called his secretary "Blondie" as a pet name (her real name is nothing like that) in the email, which was a reply to a blonde joke that she sent him.

What is this all about?

Hmmmm. Washing the car in the dark, and then saying he was going to office with your son (after you told him you would like to go) is very suspicious to me. I don't think I have ever seen anyone wash their car in the dark.

Believer,

Yeah, and that night has been playing over and over in my mind for the last week and a half.

Now he's going to have some explaining to do when I confront him with the "Blondie" email, since he just claimed that he had nothing even close to a relationship going on with another woman.

Observing -
seems to me he might've thought he'd deleted all the correspondence he had with her, but forgot about those since they're so old..... ??? Not a good sign. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Fiatflux,

I agree. So I checked my keylogger reports to find that since I started keylogging months ago, he has received no emails from her, but he has received emails from his two other secretaries.

I think I can now conclude that my husband is having an inappropriate relationship with one of his secretaries.

Here is the evidence:

1. A couple years ago, he sent a flirty email to his secretary with the pet name "Blondie" after she emailed him with a blonde joke.

I do not feel comfortable with his email and found it very unbusiness-like.

I'm sure he would not write like that in front of me.

2. Months ago, while sitting in bed with my husband, I overheard his secretary's "too friendly" voice when she called him.

This alerted me to her phone calls and how they were diferent from other phones calls.

Today, I realized that she makes her calls to him on his days off when he is spending time with me!

3. He hid the fact that he was going to meet his secretary at the office after hours once I asked who had called the other night, even though he claims to be restoring my trust.

It's a good thing I waited and then suddenly volunteered to go with him last minute, because that's how I witnessed their meeting.

I'm thinking that I should not confront him yet on the email because I don't want to lose my chance at getting more evidence in the near future.

Am I right on this?

Observing,

Have you talked to your friend that works with him? I really think you need to.

Still

Stillhurting01,

Yes, I emailed her again this morning. I haven't heard back from her yet.

Next, I'll have to get on the phone with her. But I already... (see update below)

Observing,
Have you used any tool to restore deleted e-mails on his computer? This is possible and it is how I was able to review some of the correspondence my FWH had with the OW.
Lake

I couldn't stand it anymore.

After adding (edited) to my list of evidence (above), the reality of what's happening began to affect me.

I had to do something.

I text messaged him:

"To keep your marriage, 'Blondie' needs to go (no more contact)."

He text messaged me back:

"I will do whatever it takes to keep my marriage (he's made this claim before). We need to talk, please say time and place."

We have an appointment to talk tomorrow morning. What should I bring? What should I say? How should I say it?

Any advice?

Lake53,

Thanks for reminding me.

I remember reading about restoring deleted emails by editing the REGISTRY, if that's what you're talking about.

I should have time to go back to his office tonight and do that.

I just tried the Registry Edit instructuons, but it did not work.

Does anyone know how to do it for Outlook Express so that I can Recover Deleted Email?

Bumping for Observing...can anyone help her w/the deleted mail recovery?

Hope this works, it worked for me.

Lake




close Microsoft Outlook.

This registry "hack" works in all version from Outlook 98 and up.

Start the registry editor (regedit.exe).

Go to the follwing key in the registry.

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Exchange\Client\Options

On the edit menu, click add value and the following registry value: Value name: DumpsterAlwaysOn Type: DWORD Set the data value to 1.

exit the registry editor.

This should allow you to recover deleted items that no longer reside in "deleted items"

Restart microsoft outlook.

To use the newly enable recovery feature: Go to the directory they were stored in: (inbox, etc...) Select the Tools menu. Select Recover Deleted items, a new dialog box will appear and recently deleted items for that folder will magically appear, If you want the buttons will give you the option to recover them. This will work in ALL folders.

Good Luck!

--------------------
WTF

Lake53,

Thank you so much for your help.

However, I found out that my husband's email program does not use an Exchange Server and therefore cannot provide the necessary Tools option (Recover Deleted Items) by making a change in the Registry.

Just my luck!

I have other plans...(see below)

Fiatflux,

I appreciate your help.

Since I can't use the Registry (reason above) to Recover Deleted Items in Outlook Express, I'm looking for downloadable software which can provide the same function.

I must have already bought the wrong software, because the other night I spent 3 hours staring at my husband's computer screen, waiting for "analyzing block" to finish (numbers kept increasing) while it collected email messages, but it never completed in time (had to get home and get to bed).

I have another (faster) program that I can try when I get a chance.

Ugh, another BURN OUT for me at the office!

Stillhurting01,

Here's something interesting.

My husband said that my best girlfriend joined in on the "blonde" jokes at the office. Now I wonder if she can be trusted with information on my marriage. I haven't heard from her and that could be why.

I don't know if my husband has other motives or not, but he claims that a lawsuit against his company is EXTREMELY likely if anyone at the office knows WHY he is going to take action regarding his secretary's job in the future (see update below).

I guess what I'm saying is that I can't reveal anything to her now.

Then tell him to get a new job. Don't ASK him to...tell him that it's the only chance your marriage has. Tell him to file notice TODAY, before he comes home. He's got two weeks to find something new.

Much of it is still a blur.

I had arrived, for what turned out to be a 7-hour meeting, with my hair dressed up and with just enough curled lockets dangling down to keep my husband's mind on our love life.

Of course it helped that I was sitting in my new car waiting in the Espresso line for our coffee when he arrived.

He just looked at me, from his own vehicle parked nearby, while I cheerfully spoke with the woman who was preparing our drinks.

I was in a GREAT mood because I cranked up some music on the way there and practically rocked the car off the road (slight exaggeration) while enjoying it.

Yeah, I was not about to take any nonsense!

All I wanted to hear was that "Blondie" was out of a job. If he chose her feelings over mine, I could drive over to an attorney's office and file for a legal separation to get my husband out of my bed, out of my house and off our property.

That is, I would NOT share my marriage with another woman.

You see, even though I thought I could remain calm under such circumstances, I was running HIGH on emotions once I found that email (not to mention the phone call and the meeting).

But my husband had a different expression than usual. Actually, he had no expression at all. He just sat there and looked at me. Later I was to hear that he was "admiring" me (better late than never).

His behavior caught my attention. That was not like him. I knew that my actions would be crucial during our meeting. I adjusted myself accordingly (relaxation, calmness).

Now I realize why. He thought I was going to leave him. Later, he revealed that he had never PRAYED so hard in his life as he did on the way to our meeting.

Once we got our coffee, we parked in a nearby restaurant parking lot. He asked what vehicle we should use for our meeting. I suggested we visit in his vehicle (why he didn't invite me to drive with him, I still don't know).

He started the conversation. Good, because he was the one to call the meeting, saying we needed to talk.

First, he started explaining how he was going to remove "Blondie" from her job.

That was the right thing to do.

BUT…he said he couldn't do it right away.

What?

He had to wait until June (about 2 months) to break the news to her. He said she would be out by July (about 1 additional month). He said the timing was very important due to her job requirements and could prevent a possible lawsuit against his company.

He later confided that he was surprised I accepted the delayed date, since it could be viewed as "buying more time" for a relationship. No kidding.

What he didn't know was that I NEEDED the time to capture anything possible on a voice activated recorder that I had planned to secretly install in his office (mission completed).

I replied that considering she is "very popular" (community and workplace), and that she could attempt to sue the company because of her "manipulative" behavior, I wanted to be reasonable about how he is to accomplish this task and at the same time keep our marital problems private.

I said that if I happened to have MORE evidence at the time of our meeting, he would have had a GENEROUS 24 hours to get her out of there!

And that as "earthshaking" as he claimed it's going to be to remove her from the job, it would be NOTHING compared to what would ensue if I had to take care of her with my bare hands.

Then the subject changed to a more profound topic.

He was in a gentle mood and appeared quite resigned, although he still attempted to blame me a couple times during the meeting and made excuses about inappropriate behavior with his secretary.

He said something like, "You paid off the motor home. You bought a new car. You filed a separate income tax return. You don't need me anymore. Are you going to leave me?"

He had been watching my every step, during the last months of all my Plans (A, AF, B+, whatever), just like they say on this website.

I answered, "No, I'm not going to leave you. But I AM planning on spending less time with you. That is, once our youngest child turns 21 (another decade), I plan to buy my own property and park the motor home on it Monday through Friday while I do activities in the area and then come home on the weekends."

He was floored.

For me, it was the only way to "survive our marriage".

He said, "Then you ARE planning to leave me. You're giving up on me!"

Hmm…I needed something quick, like maybe some "Reverse Gaslighting".

I directly and firmly replied, "You haven't given me a reason to trust you."

He brought up that topic at least twice during our conversation, which started out in the parking lot but ended up in the restaurant hours later.

He could tell I was doing good things for myself and for the kids. I think my actions spoke volumes (I have the people on this website to thank for helping me to say and do the right things).

But my GOLDEN sentence was this one, occurred a few days earlier in an email, and I had no idea it was so effective (probably because it addressed his Passive/Aggressive behavior):

"If you plan on punishing me in these ways, all because I would like to trust my husband, keep in mind that it could backfire on you."

He said it made him think. Think about how he has been taking his anger out on me, in many ways, throughout our years of marriage.

My sentence was preceded by an explanation of how I felt about him meeting women behind my back and it was followed by no more email from me (no matter how many times he tried to contact me).

I guess I had really gone into a Plan B, or I should say a Plan B+ because we were still under the same roof. Ha!

The last time we had talked before the meeting was when I sent the text message about how "Blondie" needing to go (to keep our marriage).

Before our meeting was finished, we covered nearly everything, making recollection for me somewhat of a blur.

He admitted that he was "wasting time" washing cars in the dark that night before going to meet his secretary at the office after hours, but claimed it was because he was "waiting for her to leave" the office.

Am I supposed to believe that? She was still there when we arrived.

I found myself spelling out all the things he could have done that night to help restore my trust, but didn't.

I showed him a copy of the "Blondie" email that he sent to his secretary and he admitted it was inappropriate behavior and that he would not have sent it had I been looking over his shoulder.

I tried to get him to admit that she has been meeting his emotional needs. He wouldn't do it.

When we talked about my response to his behavior, he said that in a court of law, he is innocent until proven guilty and that until I have proof, I can't do anything.

I almost laughed because I remembered reading a post on this website that gave an answer to this exact claim. So I answered similarly, "This is not a court of law. This is a marriage."

Then I told him that if he is going to conduct himself in ways that make me think he is cheating on me, I can do what I think is necessary to protect myself and our marriage.

He had to think about that one.

It also gave me the courage to "Reverse Babble", with a smile on my face, when he started excusing himself and his secretary from their inappropriate behavior.

He did say that he wanted me to let him know whenever I think he is punishing me. I said I could, but I really don't like "policing" our marriage.

At some point, he made a FREAK accusation that I turned his (intimate) honesty against him. I did no such thing and later realized that he was trying to find a gaslighting (keeping me a victim) excuse not to be Open & Honest about his inappropriate behavior.

Guess what he did before our meeting?

He contacted his attorney and had the complete cell phone records delivered via email that same morning. I thought the process was going to take about 3 months. But instead, it happened in record time. Apparently, the email had been available for a couple weeks even before our meeting.

I haven't had a chance to review the phone records yet (working on my husband's taxes). But I am thrilled they are in digital format because I can run queries on the data.

Amazingly, we talked about going into business together, which I'm not sure he really wants to do. We plan to meet again to set our financial and production goals.

In the end, this is what we agreed to do before taking our relationship OFF hold:

1. Go back to where we left off in our communication (his Strategy)
2. Answer my questions about his Strategy to help me build trust
3. Get Steve Harley's advice on how to answer me truthfully

Then to follow up on that, I would like to know which emotional needs were met by his secretary. I'll ask him again when he answers question about his Strategy.

After the meeting, I felt like I had just finished the most important campaign of my life (and I'm not even a politician).

My husband was so believable that day. By that night, we had mutually and unofficially taken our relationship OFF hold by having Sexual Fulfillment.

How foolish of me! (Well, not really. Now he knows more than EVER what he'll be missing out on.)

You see, I was in a perfect position for finally getting what I needed (some truthful answers), but I experienced an overwhelming DRAW toward him (perhaps because of what I understood to be honest communication earlier in the day) and we temporarily took our relationship OFF hold for 4 days.

Those days were wonderful. We spent a lot of ROMANTIC time together. We both loved it and are still living off the fumes.

I feel good about the memories we made. They were comparable to our romantic getaway last fall, after he admitted to lust and lies.

These memories are a reminder to me that I am willing to make the best of our marriage and give my husband the chances he apparently needs. I have peace with that.

But then a couple unrelated lies later, I was brought back to my senses. We're back to Plan AF (As Friends) until the above 3 agreed conditions are met.

My husband has a session with Steve Harley next week.

So, in other words, HE has the affair at work, knowing that a lawsuit is extremely likely, and now he can't fire his fellow affairee because a lawsuit is extremely likely. How convenient for HIM.

Believer,

You are so right! What he's saying is that it is MORE important to avoid a business lawsuit than it is to reassure his wife of fidelity by removing this secretary NOW. What disrespect!

Owl,

If my husband doesn't remove himself or "Blondie" from the job within 14 days of notification, what should be the consequences?

I would sit tight until hubby talks to Steve. There is no hurry to act. I know how hard it is to do nothing, but you seem to be doing very well.

I'm a little afraid you have a cake eater on your hands. He went from doing anything to satisfy you, to saying the OW can't leave till June. That is very suspicious to me.

OK...so what are his reasons for it taking 3 months to let "Blondie" go? I work in the corporate world...so I can understand that it's darn difficult to fire someone unless they've done something seriously wrong.

But he should give you the actual GAMEPLAN that he's got for letting her go.

From my perspective, if it's going to take that long to let her go, HE should leave. It takes a lot less time for him to give his notice and leave than it does to fire her. It's also FAR easier.

As far as a timeline and consequences...that's up to what you're willing to accept, and how hard you're willing to push him to make this happen.

Does anyone know whether or not phone calls to Marriage Builders (Steve) are omitted from billing records even though other calls are not?

I need to know so that I can spare my husband a nervous breakdown because I can't find the call records that he supposedly made.

Well, even if the actual phone number didn't show up, wouldn't there be a record of the call...perhaps as "private" or "blocked?"

Stillhurting01,

My girlfriend, who works in the office, and who couldn't get back with me earlier due to her parent's health conditions, finally emailed me back saying, "I don't know anything".

Believer,


Okay. The meeting is tomorrow morning. Steve did very well with my husband last time. I think there may be more honesty this time by my husband (see update below).

Fiatflux,


I am assuming that the phone records that I couldn't find last week were due to "landline" phones not recording "toll free" calls. I just don't know what else to conclude.

I do know that we both stressed out over it, since he used the company landline phone after he said he wouldn't subject our marital privacy to the main office phone.

I questioned him on how he seems to be protecting our marital privacy while WAITING to let go of his secretary, but not for our current session appointments with Steve.

Yesterday, I began to hemorrhage slightly. Too much stress these days.

Owl,


I think the main reason my husband wants to wait until the summer to let go of "Blondie" is because he fears "exposure" of inappropriate behavior with his secretary.

He'd rather remove her from the job when the workload is light so that people don't suspect anything.

He does have a good opportunity this summer since he lost a profitable order recently, which was the order that has been COVERING his business sibling's spending corruption.

Cutting back is now going to be mandatory, and my husband is very good at waiting for the PERFECT moment to break bad news.

Not only does he have the 2nd position in the family-owned corporation, but also he works with his relatives and has the "utmost respect" for all of his employees (hired hand).

He doesn't want another lawsuit against the company, which happened the last time an employee was "fired" by one of his siblings.

And on and on…

OBSERVING,

Just got back from a vacation, Glad to hear you heard from your friend. Do you believe her?

Still

Update…

TAXES:

My husband has been pretty good about not holding grudges lately as we work on our marriage.

UNTIL he found out how much he had to PAY on his filed separately income tax return. He's been angry ever since!

I take NO responsibility. He used to complain every year that my business raised his taxes. But now he KNOWS that my business REDUCED his taxes.

VEHICLE:

Last week, after I went to bed on Wednesday night, my husband left the house with his vehicle for about 6 minutes and never bothered to tell me. He doesn't know that I know this.

EMAIL:

The email recovery programs that I used on my husband's computer only showed automatically deleted emails, NONE of our private emails (or possibly other email) that he manually deleted from the Deleted Items folder.

Now that I set his email program to automatically empty the Deleted Items folder upon closing the program, my email recovery program can collect his intentionally deleted emails in the future.

With this setting now in place, I did find ONE email that he sent to a different secretary last week, which he deleted (knowing that I'm checking his email) and he had signed it "your friend and boss". He doesn't know that I know this.

Why did he delete it unless he didn't want me to find it? He has already told me that if he didn't want me to know about his emails, he would have deleted them.

I think after our last meeting, he should be conducting himself more business-like when it comes to his secretaries. That is, leave friendships with the opposite sex out of his business communication.

HONESTY:

As my husband prepares for his meeting with Steve tomorrow morning, I did find computer information that verifies the following:

1. He doesn't know if he's in love with me
2. He doesn't know if he wants to be honest with me
3. He is questioning our "chemistry"

That's more like the REAL him.

I think he is beginning to be honest now.

But he would NEVER admit this to ME.

I tossed and turned all night last night, thinking about how he could question our chemistry and then claim to be completely satisfied with our sexual relationship (his #1 EN) in the same breath, especially after our 4 days of recent romantic bliss (described in a previous post).

If there was anything that I didn't doubt about us, it was our chemistry. If he doesn't think we have the chemistry, what am I trying to save?

Well, my husband had his session with Steve Harley this morning.

But he never brought up the secret meeting with his secretary that he had planned (and I foiled) – even though it is the NEW and MAIN ISSUE!

I know. He's not going to bust himself.

He did mention (only part) of the inappropriate email and shrugged it off as an exaggerated issue by a "complex" wife.

It was Steve who brought up his Strategy (plan to improve behavior). Therefore my husband talked about how I wanted an answer to a question about his Strategy. My husband generalized the question, so that it didn't have the same meaning.

Luckily, Steve wants to hear from me and so I'll be setting up a session soon, once my husband informs me of this.

And boy, do I have my questions lined up now!

My husband managed to make himself appear rather innocent.

When Steve brought up "lack of trust" as being an issue, my husband changed the subject so as to make my "resentment" to be what is holding us back from making progress as a married couple.

Oh, brother! If he'd stop pointing the finger of blame at me, he could see that we can't progress with our relationship UNTIL he can be TRUSTED.

Stillhurting01,


No.

"My husband managed to make himself appear rather innocent."

LOL, he won't fool Steve. He's talked to millions of WS's and heard all kinds of versions of the truth.

Believer,


I'm counting on that.

This is my 10th day of hemorrhaging (marital stress).

If it continues for 30 days, I'll have to see a doctor, huh?

My husband's session with Steve Harley came and went without much changing in our relationship.

Actually, my husband did take me out for dinner to break the news that Steve wanted to discuss things with me before giving my husband advice.

But I got sick (weak) during dinner and had to cut it short and laid down in his vehicle for the trip home.

That's about where our marriage stands. I mean falls. That is, I think I have hit bottom. I'm trying to find my way up.

And I'm still waiting for my turn with Steve.

So today, I got this idea while lying in bed…

That I could email "Blondie" MYSELF and let her know that since she struck 3 times (email, phone, visit) with inappropriate behavior toward my husband – she's OUT!

And that she has 14 days to quit her job before I EXPOSE to the entire county to protect my marriage from her assault.

I think the draft letter turned out great, could stand in court if necessary, and goes with what the Bible says in that if you have a problem with someone, go to them and try to work it out to win them over before going public with it.

Other goals for the letter would be to create conflict in an existing Emotional Affair, upset her to "spill the beans" if there is more to find out, and keep her OFF the company phone for calling my husband.

I figured that with this letter, my husband would come out as the innocent one and she would come out as the guilty one and would quit on her own – rather quickly.

If that didn't work, I would EXPOSE the story right outside the door of the corporate building, handing brochures to anyone walking in.

She would be out of there in a flash because NO ONE would want me to stand outside, embarrassing the entire family-owned business. Yeah!

What's more, alongside the horror my husband would experience over exposure at the front door, he would also KNOW how much I want to keep him!

But then I remembered something.

I had RELUCTANTLY agreed with my husband during our last 7-hour meeting to wait until the summer to have Blondie removed from her job.

Therefore, I decided to text message my husband immediately with the following message to give him a chance to remove her before I blow the whole scene out of the water on Monday (via email):

"I think it's best for our marriage: talk to Blondie tomorrow, layoff within 14 days. Count from Monday."

He happened to be on his way home from a trip with our son, and walked into the bedroom with a GLARE on his face.

Hmm, I thought. This is going to be interesting.

Who's going to come out the winner – me or his secretary?

It was all I could do to hold back a smile.

I decided that we didn't need to argue, although we did somewhat.

Because I had all the strength I needed in the letter I was about to send to Blondie that would do the trick.

And he would know I meant business by Monday morning if he wasn't going to talk to her tomorrow, on Friday.

He agreed to give her notification.

But not without the typical self defense, accusations and excuses.

I questioned everything he said that showed how he was protecting everyone EXCEPT his wife.

And that I doubt I even matter to him at all if he wants to HIDE things from me concerning other women and then do NOTHING about protecting our marriage.

He did say that he was happy I wanted to protect our marriage.

He also said that he agreed "100%" (thanks to the email I found that provides some evidence) that she needs to go, but just thought he should be given more time since her removal will be a "bombshell" for the company.

He left to go back to work.

Tomorrow is the day of notice for Blondie and I hope to get it on a voice recorder since I now have a competent battery for the device.

Whew! My husband was ONE weekend away from exposure (via email to his secretary).

Wait!

As I write, my husband comes home to tell me that he has a problem.

He said that Blondie announced to him, on his way out from work tonight, that she won't be at work tomorrow because she is helping her ailing mother.

So I suggested my husband go back to work and take care of it NOW (after hours at that).

He left again.

Crap! Now I can't get the whole thing on the voice recorder, unless he comes back with another excuse.

He did it.

He came back home from work, within record time, after leaving.

That seemed too fast (meeting could have been only 10 minutes at the most).

I waited in the bedroom to hear the news.

Later in the evening, he told me he "did the dirty deed" and broke the news to Blondie that she will be out of work by Mother's Day.

He used an existing financial reason.

She said "there must be more" of a reason. He kept to the point and then got out of there as soon as possible.

He said the repercussions will come later.

I said, "thank you, now I can breathe" and smiled.

Good night.

Well, let's hope she goes, and doesn't start a law suit or something. It will be much easier to work on the marriage with her out of the picture.

Quick update:

Traveling right now with some of my kids. Almost had to give up the annual trip due to declining health.

Got word from my husband that Blondie's last day of work will be sooner than we had thought - in just 2 more days, which is almost immediate!

Wonder what happened in the last 24 hours. Might be information on the voice recorder when I get back this weekend.

Is Blondie out of work?

Today is supposed to be the first day of no contact.

I asked my husband for details (while I'm on the road).

He hasn't been very generous with answers.

Guess I have to wait until I get back.

Believer,


Yes, and now I will be watching for any contact with this woman whatsoever.

As of now, he doesn't appear to be going through withdrawal.

Observing:

NC isn't in place because she is no longer in the office.

Please continue to monitor email/cell/other methods.

Then you can find out if NC has been established.

LG

Good. Watch very carefully, but continue with recovery as if she was out of the picture.

If she is no longer working with him, you need to let him know how much you appreciate his willingness to make things better for recovery.

He was home when I got back.

That means he left work an hour early to be there to greet us. He has never done that before.

That was a GOOD MOVE on his part.

By bedtime, I wanted to be in his arms desperately!

But I didn't show that I felt this way, except with smiles and appreciation, since I didn't know what had happened with Blondie while I was gone.

I felt like it was time for HIM to lead us in our relationship. That is, if he doesn't feel like being affectionate, then I don't want to impose it on him.

I was resigned to the fact that I can't make him love me. I can't make him happy unless he wants to be.

He gave me a hug and a kiss in bed and then turned over and went to sleep.

The next day, Saturday, after he got home from a half-day of work, I asked him if he had plans for the day.

His list was so long that I quickly realized he had NO plans of spending time with ME that day. I accepted it (with a painful heart).

By Sunday morning, he had figured out that I wanted to hear about how things went while I was gone.

After all, we had been keeping in touch with brief text messages on each other's whereabouts and activities.

On the trip, I went so far as to request more details from him about Blondie's layoff, but I never got an emailed answer.

That hurt. And I began to think that there was more he wanted to hide from me.

Then Sunday morning, about 5-10 minutes before we were to leave the house with the kids, he asked me if I wanted to hear about what happened while I was gone.

I said yes, and that I have wanted to know since I had text messaged him days ago.

But I asked him if 5-10 minutes was sufficient time for such a conversation, and commented that I didn't think it was - for all that I would like to know.

We agreed to talk when we got back home in the afternoon.

That afternoon, as we began our conversation, he gave me that "serious look" (unlike him) and he took my hand and he kissed me.

After he was done telling me the story, and after he implied that he told me everything, I said:

"This is not a good time to withhold honesty from me because it makes me think that you're hiding something."

He replied:

"If there's more...you're going to have to tell me."

Yeah, right. Like I'm supposed to tell him what I know (vehicle tracking, computer keylogging) so that he can admit to only those things and then tell me no more.

That's when he revealed to me that Blondie left with:

1. A $500.00 Bonus
2. One week of paid vacation

I kept silent and waited.

And I waited.

But he still would NOT tell me that he was at the office after hours AGAIN and that this happened before Blondie's last day of work and while I was out of town!

Time to let all of that go, and give him credit for getting rid of her.

Assume that he DOES want to work on the marriage, and watch him closely.

Do the two of you spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together.

Lousygolfer,

Welcome back!


I hear you. But what a relief it is that Monday through Saturday, she is not there to look at, talk to, be admired by and so forth.


Yes, and for the sake of TRUE recovery, this is my immediate goal.

Whether or not my husband goes back into contact with his former secretary will be very telling for me.

Moving right along toward a recovery mentality, what do you think makes a man be honest with his wife?

Believer,

I've been thinking a lot about what you said in your last couple posts.

I appreciate the inspiration you have given me at a time like this.

Last night, I was so frustrated, I slept with my wedding ring OFF. This morning, I put it back on.

That's how I am emotionally if I can't get "honesty" from my husband while we are working on the recovery of our marriage.

But I think we can start over. We may have already started (update below)...

Wow, what a kiss.

Rewind. Even though it seemed questionable, I must have done something right.

Knowing that "turning around and walking away" is the only thing that seems to work with my husband, I decided to try something.

I sort of avoided him, waiting for him to be ready to tell me the rest of the story that he didn't finish on Sunday.

The first time ever, I walked out (one door) of the house the minute he walked in (another door) for lunch.

After lunch, he found me in another building on the property and wanted to say good-bye.

Well, he was somewhat emotional and gave me the best hug and kiss I can ever remember, and we both had to fight back the tears.

We have plans to continue where we left off, once the kids are in bed tonight.

I think this is a good time for us to start over.

After all, we hardly have been spending 1 hour of fun time together a week lately.

BUT...what he doesn't know is that FIRST he has to tell me what he did on Tuesday night of last week.

I realize this could cause a loss of romance that has already begun.

But I know now, from studying snooping records all day yesterday, that he didn't spend much time on Tuesday at the office after hours - to my relief.

So I think I can get the truth out of him tonight BEFORE Sexual Fulfillment (it's been weeks, and as of today my health has finally improved).

You see, somehow I need to train him to whisper "sweet honesties" into my ear before making love with me.

Normally, that wouldn't be very good timing. But for him I think it will work!

Perhaps this process will help him to realize that as much as he needs a physical relationship with me, I need an honesty relationship with him.

I feel as if I have no other choice than to work with him like this if I am going to be happy too.

Yes, he needs sex. But she (me) needs honesty.

I believe both of those needs should be met for a successful recovery.

Uh...

I didn't have the heart to ruin a good night (regarding my last post, which was edited to add more details).

Maybe next time.

I now have the rest of the story.

Or so I think.

Last night, we talked (in the dark, since I was trying to keep it short and get some sleep).

He asked me what I was thinking about. I told him that I was thinking about what he did Tuesday night of last week and why he wouldn't be honest with me about it when I asked.

I could see right away that he was going to take a detour in telling me the truth.

First it was "I might have..."

Then it was "I may have..."

Then it was...

He was really playing dumb, I thought.

But I made too much sense. He couldn't back out knowing that I KNEW there was more he needed to tell me.

He thinks that I had somebody "watching" him.

Well, yes, that's me (tracker, keylogger).

Good. Now he might behave himself, huh?

I imagine he's going to be looking over his shoulder a lot from now on. And I don't even have to pay a Private Investigator!

Anyway, this time, our conversation was calm (Thank you, Steve Harley!).

He hardly accused me or blamed me of much. But he could have buried me alive with EXCUSES (that I didn't fall for).

He finally told me that he went back to the office after hours while I was out of town and failed to tell me.

Then he asked me why I made love with him the night before if things "weren't right" with us.

I told him that I did ask him for honesty the weekend before, didn't want to ruin a great night, was trying to recover our marriage, and wanted him to know that I love him.

I take it that he thinks he can sweep things under the rug as long as we have Sexual Fulfillment (SF) and that's how everything will be okay.

We talked about how important SF must be for him, but how important honesty must be for me.

That's when we agreed (whatever that's worth) to do BOTH, but not one without the other.

Wow. If that works, this could be a real milestone!

At some point in the conversation, I brought up his email because he tried to claim that he had "no relationship at all" with his former secretary.

And that from HIS point of view, he hadn't thought it was important to let me know about his office activities because of his innocence.

I just about blew, but held my composure, while I reminded him that when a husband talks about personal things with another woman and has a pet name for her too, but hides it all from his wife, THAT IS considered a "relationship" and that he flunked the test of innocence.

Then, he was really taken aback when he found out that I had since recovered his latest "deleted" email to his other secretary when he called himself her "friend and boss".

He said something to the effect, "Can't I have friends"?

To turn his babbling excuse inside out, I asked him what if she takes it the wrong way? And why didn't he send me a carbon copy if he's not trying to hide anything from me?

I told him that it was a coincidence that I recovered that email and that I couldn't recover all his deleted email, but if I were able to, I don't know WHAT I would find.

Today, he must be feeling as naked as Adam in the Garden of Eden, knowing that his wife is paying close attention just when he thought he could do as he pleased behind her back.

I'm feeling somewhat relieved today since the ball is back in his court again.

That's after he tried to put the responsibility on me by asking me to remind him when he's being dishonest with me.

I gave the responsibility right back to him by suggesting that he setup "beeping" honesty reminders on his cell phone.

So either he is going to stop making excuses for his secretive behavior or he just won't get SF with his wife.

I have no idea what will happen next.

I do know, however CHARMING he is, that it's as hard for him to be Open & Honest as it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

But with God, all things are possible...

Observing - it's nice to see that your sense of humor is still intact even after dealing with all of this drama. Still, I know you must be wearing thin ... take care of yourself.

Obs:

What's Up?

LG

Fiatflux,

Thanks for the encouragement. You made me smile.

Lousygolfer,

It's nice to know that people care.

Update coming...

I was laughing the other day.

But I didn't post, because I wasn't ready yet.

I was waiting to find out what was going on in our marriage recovery.

I had come home from a trip with a couple of my kids, only for my husband to turn his head away from me after I greeted him so that I wouldn't notice he was SURPRISED by my suntan.

It had just turned out to be a great week for weather/activities and the outcome was an awesome suntan.

What a cold homecoming, I thought. Oh, well.

But I continued to smile and walked confidently, and went on with the evening with the same joy I came home with.

After all, my (marital stress) hemorrhaging had dried up while I was away (coincidence, huh?) and I had been working on having confidence in being "enough" so that I can become a better person overall during this crisis.

Later, his words were, "I've never seen you with a suntan like that".

Boy, he's right.

And now, more things are going to change too. You see, I don't want to allow him to pull me down. I think I need some confidence boosters.

So I would like to return to my wedding-day weight, as a new personal goal. I think it would make me feel better about myself.

He's already concerned about my hair and nails taking on more youthful, feminine effects – naturally.

But today, I'm exhausted.

This morning, I had another meeting with my husband. This time it was over the phone.

It's the same old thing.

I keep running into a BRICK WALL when (occasionally) confiding my need for honesty from him.

So we're back to: NO sex without honesty.

Apparently, I had given into sex without honesty, and therefore confused him on whether or not our marriage was recovering.

Gee, that means I can be the one to GIVE, but that's precisely where his generosity stops. No need for honesty if he's getting sex, right?

Really, the only thing different in our relationship since my last post (couple months ago) is that I have more diamonds (another emergency peace offering), had another daylong conversation in the same parking lot/restaurant and have evidence (snooping) that he hasn't been fully transparent with me during recovery.

Without this evidence, I would have to say that I would be a BLIND FOOL today.

In my opinion, he's a master GasLighter and really tries to make me feel like I am to blame for not believing or trusting him.

I can't thank the Lord enough for delivering me, by giving me the evidence I have. I can freely live my life without feeling guilty of not trusting him because I have evidence that he is untrustworthy.

Get this:

1. He keeps saying "you have to tell me" (wow, what a demand) about when he hurts me with his gawking (which now includes touching himself) or he won't know what to improve on, poor helpless, innocent him.

2. Or, he says things like "until you believe me" (another guilt trip), we can't move forward in our marriage recovery.

Nonsense!

1. I know that to inform him about his latest gawking only gives him a chance to admit to what he has been CAUGHT doing. And that he'll never admit to anything he isn't caught at. What kind of openness and honesty is that?

2. To explain the details of his lack of transparency, especially when I am out of town, would be to reveal my sources. No way. The evidence keeps me sane. Why can't HE tell ME what he's doing, where he's at?

You know, I am so thankful to learn from good people on this forum.

Really, I am no longer being played for a fool. The emotional needs that I meet for my husband are consciously and generously given to help build a better relationship during this so-called recovery.

This is my effort at making things work out.

Sometimes I feel like it's a WASTE of my time to try and work things out with him, so I wonder if he should just figure it out for himself!

Okay, so now I go out on LOUD MUSIC excursions in the car, releasing some pressure-cooked emotions (I don't do pushups, but really admire men who do!).

Does anyone here DANCE in the car while driving? I do. It's SO FUN, especially at high speeds. I do wear a seatbelt and keep one hand on the steering wheel.

It makes me smile just thinking about it…

Hey, recently I have FELT (emphasis added, only a feeling) like calling up the handsome, intelligent, adulterous jerk who tried to hit on me some summers ago and going out to have a good time with him for some feelings of appreciation! Wow, what a good time we would have! Yah!

But I know better. So here I am STUCK in a lunatic marriage (blunt expression for the moment) with a man who can't go beyond his SELFISHNESS and IMMATURITY to work on our marriage.

Well, my husband is in trouble. He appears to be testing me.

Do you know what he said last night? He said that now he would "take it seriously". You mean he hasn't been taking our marital problems seriously since last summer when this all started?

Ouch, I'm getting a headache…