Owl,

I appreciate your explanation and I'm happy to get another point of view, especially from another avid snooper.


Gee, thank you!


I think I am now coming to that conclusion – although it's still in process.


Uh, I guess that IS a possibility, so I'm not going to second guess anything after hearing lies from him in the past over things that are serious or important to me.


Now that's the BEST question on this entire forum.

It's simple. I will be satisfied when he stops his strange obsession of looking at other women and gives me as much interest (and time) as he does them.

Realistically, I don't see this happening in the near future. He's the one who has admitted "permanent damage" (lust) while growing up.


First, I'm not finished with finding the proof I need. I don't even know what the incoming phone numbers are on his company billing records. I also need to send in his underwear from last month for testing just to make sure. Some of my vehicle tracking was botched by incorrect settings while trying to hide my computer screen from my children's interest and so on.

Secondly, I have known people for years who I NEVER suspected as being guilty of serious things, only to find out later that they were. What a shock! Through those experiences, I have learned that you need to turn over every stone and get proof - and even still, you can be fooled if you are not thorough enough.

Third, I don't want to be one of the MANY blind women who have been FOOLED by their lying husbands for 20 or 30 years. Remember what my husband said in one of my previous posts, "You're not as gullible as you used to be". Was he taking advantage of my trust?

Being a very trusting person, once my trust is lost, it's hard to get it back. I can't say that my husband has been very WILLING to get it back through the last few months – big strike against him.

So, yes, I am being CAUTIOUS. Plus, I'm the techie type, have access to and interest in all the detective tools – and the money to use them.

Think about it. If my husband lies to me in the past, what makes me think he's not lying to me in the present? How am I to know without turning over every stone to my own satisfaction?

Lousygolfer,

Thanks for your time in helping me to sort out what's going on and how to deal with my feelings.


Like any intelligent man, my husband sees what he WANTS to see, especially toward the edge of a loosely woven crowd.

Speaking of:


Keep in mind, that he became most of the man you are talking about LESS than a week ago. And it took RADICAL perseverance on my part to get to this point in our relationship.

When it comes to provisions, he's AWESOME. And I married him knowing that he wouldn't be physically abusive, which I wouldn't tolerate for ONE DAY since I grew up with a father like that.

Actually, his financial status may change within the next couple years. Remember the profitable order that he lost recently? That was the one that COVERED the losses from his business sibling's spending. My husband says that without that extra profit, he doesn't see the company surviving.

This can set the stage for my husband and I working together in the future. This year, even though my business has been on auto-pilot for months, it still broke a record which appeals to my husband. Now I need to get OFF the MB website, build another website and double those figures!


You've got some good points with the secretary issue. No kidding – if she has marital problems, all the more to watch for an inappropriate relationship.

BUT, it turns out (keylogger report) that she didn't know she was going on the trip with my husband and when he asked, she declined.

The good news is that last night my husband told me that she wouldn't be going and invited me to go with him.


You're so right. I will work on it.


I just want my husband's heart. Is that asking too much?


That's a loaded question.

With all due respect for my favorite "lousy golfer", I will answer briefly:

On one hand, I have spent roughly 9 hours a day for 5 solid months (after at least 2 previous years not knowing about MB) working on my marriage, and then with the time that is left over, I have taken care of my children and kept an eye on my online business which is on auto-pilot.

On the other hand, I have not been adulterous with another man as a means of solving my marital problems.

Owl,

Could I be married to "James Bond"?

Just this afternoon, I took a second glance at my husband's cell phone billing records. I wanted to do a quick check of calls that I knew existed and compare them to his billing records.

In about an hour, I found several calls that we made to each other which were listed on my PDA/Phone log, but were NOT listed on his billing records - even a 47 minute phone call that he made to me (outgoing) in October 2006.

I checked another month. I found a few more phone calls that we made to each other which were listed on my PDA/Phone log, but were NOT listed on his billing records.

Do I have incomplete records (originals) or is his phone company corrupt or am I married to "James Bond"?

Obviously I have a lot more work to do. Presently, I don't have the TIME to comb through all the month's records and insert everything into a database for query building to make sure, but I have asked my husband for "complete" records FAXED to me from his phone company (incurs charges).

In the meantime, and with trembling hands, I have a ton of work to catch up on since I have put my online business on hold for months and taxes are due soon.

Thanks observing for welcoming me in. I also have never been jealous or have had low self esteem until finding out that he did cheat on me. I know what you mean that once you start being suspcious then you're always thinking the worst. I watch his every move and I have never noticed him look in our 20 yrs together but I never was worried or doubted him. I get suspicious when he looks a few times in the same direction as other women, there doesn't necessarily have to be just women over there, but I take it as though that's what he keeps looking over there for. So I have noticed him though look a few times, quick glances do you think that's just innocent looking around? He never appears to look around me. I feel so confused about this, I realize to what you said that he's going to find others attractive. Thanks again for your help and letting me come in on this.

Observing:

This could be tough, but you are looking for help, right?

Owl asked you this:


And you responded with:



His Strange Obsession? and as much interest (and time)? Previously, you have accused him of lusting after your daughter! Who's Stange Obsession? If HE is having dinner with YOU, and looks at the other patrons, then it ruins everything for you. You are constructing a life that says you can never go outside with your H again. Because your H needs to see where he is going. And he might just look at another woman because she crosses his sightline.

Let me explain:
Your description of what happened in the crowd the other day was very similar to a situation that happened to me and my Wife. Our son is 14 and going to the High School next year. And they had an informational meeting last evening. W and I went. When the meeting was over, we exited the Auditorium in to this large open Atrium. About 300 people were there. We both turned right coming out, and were looking at some school displays. I started moving ahead and went to the last display putting me in the corner of the Atrium. I turned around, expecting W to be still looking at the displays, I could not see her. There were alot of people milling about, but it was not crowded at all. And there are these big pillars between the doors of the Auditorium and the displays. Where did she go? If she could see me, and continued watching me, before I saw her, she might wonder what I was looking for. I was looking for her. But before I found her, I could have rested my eyes on other men/women/kids. And then I saw her. And she was not where I expected her to be. So I waved and walked over. I know, your H was seated, and you were moving about, and he was not keeping track of you. What would your reaction have been if he had watched your every move?

You answer one of my statements regarding diamonds with:



Was there a point in time that you feel you had all of it? Because looking around at folks does not mean he doesn't give you all of his heart. Can he be disrespectful about it? Yes, and he is working on that. And you know he is. You described his actions in regards to this.

And then you close with:


"5 Solid Months?" Most of that time was developing snooping plans and looking for evidence of a past EA/PA. And yes you and he did spend time reading and working HNHN. But I disagree that you "spent" that time "working" on your M. You Wanted to bust him. And since you haven't been able too, you are disappointed.

"Taken care of my children." I thought that they were "OUR" children.

"On-line business which is on Auto-Pilot" And that one really burns you up. Because you need the admiration that comes from that. And you have put it aside while you hunt for info.

And this:



No you haven't, and you haven't yet proved that your H has had an EA/PA yet either. And if you are referring to my A, then I would give everything to have found MB before I found OW. Because although my M is better now than it ever has, I would do anything to remove the stain of the A from my M. So, my A didn't solve my marital problems, my greater knowledge and actions did. And have you already determined what you are going to do if you DO find out he had an EA/PA in the past?

I'm wielding some 2x4's at you today. Because I need you to start looking inward at what is going on. You cannot change your H. You can change yourself. You need to look inside and find out what is making you obsessive about the way he looks at others. You have already told us that you still have a good figure, good skin, good looks and are bright. Yet, you are so threatened by him looking at others, and how others perceive you. If you were to take the Emotional Needs Questionaire from HNHN and answer the questions again, but from the point of view that you were going to discuss the answers with me, your H or what you percieved the "right" answers to be, how would those answers change?

That is why I ask: "What have you done?"

Because you just might construct a box for yourself that you cannot get out of.

Lousygolfer,

I think you're jumping the gun a little.

Allow me to progress and we'll see what I find – or don't find. I have the right to the information I am seeking since my husband gave me a reason to search, learn, snoop, sort, read, write, think, walk, discuss, shop, buy, pray and meet his most important Emotional Needs with greater intensity.

I do have a question for you:

If my husband were innocent, why would he accept being kicked out of the house if I decided to do that to him?

I would NEVER accept being kicked out of the house if I were innocent. But that's what he told me he would accept.

So whatever he's doing is clearly not my imagination. If he thinks what he is doing warrants being kicked out, it must be.

Lousygolfer,

Perhaps I was confused as to what you have been asking me.

Are you asking me what I could be doing for myself, to make me a better person since I can't change my husband?

If so, then my answer is:

I would like to live "as friends" with my husband.

I think this would make me a better person. I would no longer feel like my lover is always looking for another lover. I would smile more often, laugh more often and go about my business, while letting my husband go about his business.

Are you asking me what I would do if I found him guilty of Adultery (PA)?

If so, then my answer is:

I would like to live "as friends" with my husband.

I would never want to be the one to break the scandalous news of Adultery to our children and I wouldn't try to impose myself on a husband who wants another woman. At the same time, I would want to keep my marriage vows "until death do us part".

Yes, I could do what I think would make me a better person.

But would these things make a better marriage? No.

That's why I trouble myself with working on our marriage.

That's why I ask for my lover's heart.

Observing:

Your quote:

If my husband were innocent, why would he accept being kicked out of the house if I decided to do that to him?

Because maybe HE'S not interested in living like this:

I would like to live "as friends" with my husband.

Because that is the alternative you are willing to live with, NO MATTER what you happen to dig out.

Can't you see this? He probably senses where you are going. And is not interested in being in that place with you.

For example:

I lived "as friends" when I first left the Air Force for 2 years. These were all other males, and we had interesting times.

But since we were "Friends" we would look at all the pretty women we could!

But that is not what I wanted from M. Yes, I am "friends" with my W. Moreso now then ever before. But that deeper marital connection transcends were my (or her) eyes may be during all our waking hours. Does my W have self-esteem issues? Oh Yes. And my A kicked her self-esteem hard. But I have slowly but surely worked at improving her self-esteem since. Through, kind, caring, loving ACTIONS.

AND that is what MB is all about.

Lousygolfer,

Uh...


Not true. The options I mentioned in my previous post were…

1. IF my husband didn't want to change his hurtful behavior toward me, OR

2. IF he was currently found guilty of Adultery while claiming the opposite

3. AND I had to find a way to better myself.


I'm trying not to be there either.

So if he's telling the truth and doesn't want to live only "as friends", then all he needs to do is look no further than his wife for a lover.

Then we could BOTH live happily ever after – in romantic love.

Sometimes I feel like I'm sinking.

My husband and I had another opportunity to come to an "agreement" on an event that involves his relatives this week.

A decision was made in time, but my husband really DRAGGED HIS FEET on getting the information we needed to be able to come to an agreement.

Because we had a deadline, I took it upon myself to find the necessary information and then, after stumbling across more information once he made a phone call, I made a decision for myself (he can come along if he wants) and the kids.

This frustration set me back somewhat and I'm now swimming around, trying to find the shore of Plan A, as I sort through the cell phone records that arrived by MAIL this week in an effort to find "closure" (as he puts it) to my suspicions.

Finally.

Here's what I found by sorting through both my husband's and my own cell phone billing records:

Even though his total minutes of calls are recorded, his "Local Usage" incoming and outgoing calls are NO LONGER listed in detail since August 9, 2006.

The timing doesn't seem good to me.

This change in listings started LESS than a week BEFORE I found this website and began my version of Plan A and about the same time he upgraded his cell phone.

Why would the same phone company OMIT Local Usage listings for the same phone number after August 9, 2006 but not before?

Why would this also be done for his and his business sibling's cell phone on the same account, but not for the additional cell phones on a separate account with the same company?

Although his INCOMING calls do not have phone numbers associated with them, mine do.

This is what I found by looking at records dated AFTER his Local Usage listings stopped:

- 406 minutes recorded within a 4 month period, but ONLY 23 of those minutes are actually listed as incoming or outgoing calls on his cell phone billing records.

Where are the listings for the other 383 minutes for that period?

- 142 minutes of calls he made TO ME viewable from my own cell phone records, but ONLY 6 of those minutes are listed as OUTGOING calls on his cell phone billing records.

Where are the listings for the other 136 minutes of calls to me during that time?

Why are these calls unaccounted for?

What other kinds of calls are unaccounted for?

What should I do about this?

What should I do?

I calmly spoke with my husband about the cell phone record findings (or serious lack of).

Now I'm waiting for him to put my name on the account (he volunteered) so that I can discuss the missing records with his Phone Company and attempt to get more information on those records.

The problem is that since we last spoke about this (same day as my last post), I have heard NOTHING about whether or not I have access to the account yet. Besides the account numbers, which I already have, I need his Employer Identification Number to get information.

Should I ask him about it again? I don't feel like I should have to since we already discussed this.

When it was initially time to give me a copy of the cell phone records from the office, I didn't have to remind him. It seemed to be first on his list for the day.

But since the missing records, satisfying my curiosity no longer appears to be on his mind.

If he does NOTHING, I will be led to believe that there is something to hide.

What should I expect from him right now?

Not that I want to change the subject at a time like this, but I did want to mention:

Remember the property issue, the one that was a bitter-sweet victory for me, but my name was not on a legal document regarding the ownership of the property even though my husband and I supposedly own our property together?

Well, if not for confronting my husband with the bank's legal document where his name was listed but my name was omitted, he would have left the document in our home file cabinet where he swiftly filed it - without even knowing that HIS name was actually no longer on the legal property ownership records either!

Apparently, the process wasn't finished but nobody knew it or knew why it wasn't.

Today my husband emailed me to let me know that their attorney MAY be taking over the property issue in the near future since he (and his relatives) can't seem to get it worked out any other way.

In the meantime, the property we live on doesn't even legally belong to us.

I guess it was too good to be true.

It makes you wonder, do I have to double-check everything?

It's hard to explain what takes place in the human heart.

Our last event, the one we couldn't come to an agreement on, but went anyway, added to my awareness of our true relationship.

It turned out to be one of the most treasured events that I have been to in a long time because it was the beginning of "healing" for some particular relative issues.

I knew that as Christians, we needed to go.

We were there to do our part, as a family, and we did.

I felt so whole as a family and with my husband, even though my husband and I had things like "missing cell phone records" hanging over our heads. I could see the "big picture" for our relationship - STILL.

Not so for my husband.

As we carried conversation while waiting for the delayed event to begin, his eyes repeatedly darted away from mine as we spoke to each other so that he could get a better view of a young woman sitting beyond me.

Crap! Not this again.

Keep in mind, it's not hard to miss this when you are looking into your husband's eyes while speaking with him and he can't concentrate on the conversation.

I can't explain the feeling of WORTHLESSNESS as a wife when you are sitting there, shoulder to shoulder as a couple, everybody is watching, but you know your husband is not interested in you.

All I could think to myself at the moment was that he was a RABID addict.

So this time, I went for some DRAMA!

I was dressed my best, feeling good and his actions gave me extra confidence to stand up for myself, which kept me from getting frustrated and allowed me to deal with it positively and in real time.

So I exaggeratedly turned around and LOOKED to see what was so important, then looked back at him to acknowledge that he WAS interested in something else, and then turned around and did the same thing again, successfully making him AWARE that I knew what he was doing and that it was interrupting our conversation.

Go girl! I mean GO WOMAN!

It was then that I realized that he could CARE LESS about sitting next to me, or visiting with me for that matter, and that he never bothered to smile at me during the day and had no twinkle in his eye like I had for him.

H---! How can I be so STUPID? When are you going to figure it out woman?

But he LAUGHED wholeheartedly and with radical enthusiasm when the same young woman began speaking on a microphone a couple hours later for another part of the event.

Standing behind me, it was obvious that his sudden joy for the day ERUPTED, even though the poor young woman wasn't saying anything at all, just making a fool of herself – and he absolutely loved it.

What was his problem? No one else was laughing.

After a day of traveling and the challenge of meeting up with so many relatives all in one place, a positive nightcap conversation was very, very, VERY important to me, especially considering how much my husband had, at least by omission, contributed to the RUIN of some of those relationships over the years.

He used the opportunity not to cherish our marriage and bond our relationship that night, but instead to take out revenge against me since I calmly called him on his obstinate behavior before we had left for the event that morning.

What a CRAPSHOOT of a relationship!

When am I ever going to learn? What does it take for me to WAKE UP?

Observing, I totally understand where you are coming from! I have been married slightly less than a year and have dealt with this wandering eye garbage non-stop. What makes it worse now is that I am nearly eight months pregnant, so, I am extra sensitive to it. We have gone over this issue, and I know when we are out in public he is trying to curtail it, and it hurts me that the man I am married to is on edge at times trying to control himself from gawking and lusting after other women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I don't think I can live this way for the rest of my life. I find it disrespectful, painful and sometimes wish I could just go out in public alone, instead of with him. And get this, he wouldn't be bothered by me gawking at other men, he points them out to me sometimes! I want my baby to have an intact family but I don't want him to see his mother upset all the time, either. Anyway, I feel better knowing I am not alone when it comes to this subject.

Obs, did I ever direct you to the links in my sig line about living with a passive/aggressive man?

Want to talk about it?
Mulan

Obs, I looked through your thread again.

You have completely lost focus and your husband has you right where he wants you - jumping through hoops and going crazy.

He is a Passive/Aggressive bully and he is using P/A tactics to control you and keep you out of the way.

The more you obsess and worry and try to spy and get the truth, the more he laughs, because your agony and frustration mean he's Winning and you're Losing.

The more you tell him how hurtful his gawking and ignoring you is, the more comfortable he is, because your pain and humiliation mean that he's Winning and you're Losing.

He may give lip service to POJA, but that's no problem - POJA won't work without PORH, and since he's utterly defeated PORH by refusing to participate he has no worries about POJA.

Again - you are barking up the wrong tree.

Trying to educate him and telling him he's hurting you only reinforce to him that He's Winning and You're Losing, which is exactly what he wants. P/As are some of the most controlling people on the face of the earth and they are massively uncomfortable if they do not feel fully in control of the situation - in this case, the marriage.

And he IS in control of it because he's driving you crazy and deliberately pushing your buttons to keep you off-balance, out of the way and under HIS control.

If he were an alcoholic, we'd tell you that MB principles do not work with addicts and to get the alcoholism treated before trying MB plans.

It's no different with a P/A. P/As will sabotage and defeat any MB plan you can name, just as your husband is doing.

Unless and until you can cure the nasty P/A disease, MB plans have no more chance of working here than they do of working on an alcoholic.

You've got to focus on the P/A disease and nothing else. If that cannot be cured, you will have to make the choice of either living with him exactly as he is now or else leaving to save your own sanity.
Mulan

Madea,

Thanks for sharing your feelings.

You're fortunate to be here at MB where you can learn early in your marriage. You'll have so much more of an advantage than those of us who discovered MB decades after our marriage vows.

I do want you to know that you are more BEAUTIFUL than you will EVER be when you are pregnant and carrying a loving child within your womb – whether your husband makes you feel that way or not.

You have a special glow about you. You are breathing for two people right now. That is wonderful and no one can take that joy away from you!

Go beauty! Go true love!


Glad my posting has been of help to you.

Mulan,

Thanks for the shot of SANITY.

I needed that.

Uh, I feel better already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do you really think it is ALL P/A behavior and not more?

I try to be objective. I can't help but think I am working with a double-whammy:

1. Passive/Aggressive (tries to control me)
2. Sexual Addiction (seems to control him)

I find it hard to believe that my husband is such a great ACTOR, that he can appear to be controlled by lust just to have more control over me as his wife.

Whether it is ONLY P/A behavior or P/A and Sexual Addiction combined, I have to solve the problem the same way, right?

In other words, I can't adopt MB principles until he overcomes this behavior.

So I guess you are right.

I tossed and turned all night last night, preparing for my next post: Plan AF (As Friends) as a solution to this behavior so that I don't go insane.

Somehow I have to live with him. I am true to my marriage vows. I cannot put my happy and secure children through h---. Never!

So the time has come. I really need to do something about this.

You can read about my personal resolution (Plan AF) in an upcoming post.

It's going to take courage and perseverance to follow through with it.

My husband will cuddle up, look like a lost puppy, speak gently to me and my heart will BREAK.

But I believe my plan is the right thing to do.

Major Update:

I guess we're heading into Plan AF (As Friends).

There is an AWARENESS that is coming over me.

Perhaps my subconscious has been trying to avoid it, partly because I don't want to be responsible for a ruined marriage since I value our marriage vows so much.

But in the last weeks, I'm realizing more and more that I am not responsible for my husband's actions against our marriage and that I should ACCEPT this.

I have always been the "people pleaser" type who wants to make the best of things especially at my own expense.

I could tell myself to be happy with the way things are, spend my time counting our blessings and give our marital problems the name "misunderstandings".

But I have decided NOT to practice FALSE charity towards my husband.

That is, if I lay down for him, pretending our marital relationship is good, he will never have a reason to stop hurting me, become a better person and change his lust for other women.

Instead, I will be enabling his behavior all the more and he'll have an ugly soul to present the Lord on judgment day.

Is that what I want for my neighbor? No.

Does he want to stop hurting me, become a better person or change his lustful behavior? I don't know.

But I least I will not be held responsible for being an accomplice to this kind of behavior in our marriage.

I find PEACE with that.

Therefore, and as of now, we are living "as friends".