As a wife, how would I know if my husband's wandering eyes are a concern?

I believe we both made it to Withdrawal (state of mind), me being the last. Once I withdrew (felt like I was being taken for a fool and didn't want our conversations to continue going around in circles over our relationship and what we can do to improve it), he responded by being concerned enough about my silence to discuss and buy the home study course (which we will soon begin using together).

His response to sexual fulfillment (I started working on this before we ordered the course) has been positive, and quite immediate. But that's only sexual fulfillment. Even after this positive response, and while spending time with me out in public, I see no change in his wandering eyes.

It drives me crazy.

So I ordered a vehicle tracking device, a semen testing kit (I am convinced I saw an underwear stain that was not related to me) and next a voice recorder. I noticed a missed "restricted" telephone number on his cell phone (I don't have access to the billing as it's for business) during the same week of the underwear stain. This has caused sleepless nights, much confusion and mornings of "wondering".

Am I imagining things? I do have a very creative and imaginative mind, and don't want to jump to conclusions.

The confusion begins because he is already spending more and more time with me without knowing much about the home study course details (basic concepts). So it seems like his response is great and true – he seems to be gravitating toward me, which I can't imagine him doing if there was another woman. He even told me he loved me during sexual fulfillment – something I had not heard in a long time.

I feel like some things add up. Other things don't.

I'm miserably waiting for information using my new spy tools, which I feel perfectly comfortable using since I have the right to know if his wandering eyes have any negative impact on our marriage. That is, I need to know for sure if I am the only woman in our marriage.

He doesn't think I notice his wandering eyes – repeated glances at other women, especially if they are wearing promiscuous clothing and even when they are young (enough to be his daughters), even though I have mentioned on occasion (throughout our marriage) the pain it causes me. But to me it's obvious. Being married for many years, it is stab-my-heart noticeable for a wife.

We have a very happy family life and plenty of children who love their parents. So if my suspicions turn out to be right, it would be UNBELIEVABLE (but not surprising to me).

What to think?

Observing,

As a woman I can relate to the suspicions. Our instincts are fire alarms and very difficult to ignore.

JMHO, I say...do what makes you sleep better at night. If you are uncomfortable and have doubts, I don't see anything wrong with finding out if you're wrong or right. Surely, he may be offended for your snooping if he IS being faithful, but what if he isn't?

Personally, I would be able to live with myself more if I was accused of being suspicious and snoopy...rather than accused of being ignorant and naive. Catch my drift?

If I felt H was cheating, but did nothing to confirm or squash my suspicions, my mind would race constantly because I'm the type that can't let it go...I'm a DWELLER as I suspect you are, too.

But...I'm on expert. I'm only telling you what I would do. But from the advice I've seen here, there's a few lines that I've seen that could pertain to you:

a.) Act don't react--take control of what you CAN take control of. If you need peace of mind, then you take it. There's nothing wrong with it as long as you're not harming anyone. Law enforcement can arrest people based on Suspicion alone...why can't a wife spy a little based on suspicion?

b.) Post Post Post here...you will get a wide arrange of advice...and this place is a venting ground for us all. Keep coming here...It's helped me LOADS!

c.) Careful for the love busters. You don't want to ruin a marriage that could possibly be Affair-free. Just be cautious and concerned...watch him, OBSERVE, take notes, and report them here. There are so many here that can read between the lines and interpret many things. Don't be afraid to ask!

Finally, I wanna leave you with the peace of mind that you aren't alone. I'm sorry you're here based on the current circumstance, but you're in the right place.

Good luck in your journey. Take care.
Korlis

Korlis, I truly appreciate your quick response, something I needed today. It has given me a sense of relief and consolation in not being alone over this, plus some things to think about.

You have brought up a good point. Why hasn't he given me assurance that he loves only me when I mention his wandering eyes and how it hurts me? Instead, he adamantly denies it. That's the part I hate. He doesn't seem to want to change it and certainly doesn't try to make me feel any better if I bring it to his attention. A little assurance would go a long way.

Plus it's getting worse. We can't be in a parking lot, at a gas station, in a restaurant, at a store or even in an ice cream parlor without him positioning himself for yet another glance – at what does not belong to him. It's hard to keep smiling when you know you're not the only woman in view.

The one thing that concerns me the most is the blatant nature of it. He's being extremely insensitive...he KNOWS it bothers you, but does nothing to correct it, even a little bit?

My red flags went up on this one, too. BUT...there's still no proof that he has actually COMMITTED the dirty deed or in an EA with anyone else? If he's just looking then count yourself one of the luckiest women on this board because most of us are dealing with the actual act of infidelity. Don't go getting crazy until you have tangible evidence in your hands to back up your accusation.

Keep your chin up and your mind OPEN.

The sinking feeling is very known here...you're not alone.

Korlis

A lot has happened since my last post.

Not only has my husband admitted to "looking at other women" and "lying about it" for years, but also he has taken me on a romantic getaway in appreciation of my acceptance of his apology and as a way of starting over in our marriage relationship.

During all this, I was never reassured that I was the only woman in our marriage. I haven't asked for this reassurance, because I want it to come from his heart.

I'm somewhat confused about his reaction to my increased sexual desire for him…

I figured that with all the 21-year-old energy I've seen him put into looking at other women (and therefore concluded it was his most important emotional need), he'd easily redirect his sexual desire toward me once he could see that I was available ANYTIME, not just during my fewer infertile days as he seemed to prefer but which made me feel more like a sex object.

But he's losing sleep just thinking about it – and doing it. He keeps telling me we can't do more than 2 or 3 consecutive days of sexual fulfillment because it's too exhausting for him, yet he has always had better health than me. Then he tells me he has to adjust to all this.

Adjust to what? Could it be that he was caught off guard (discovered) and wasn't ready for relationship building, but knows he can't get out of it if he wants a better marriage?

What concerns me is that he has NEVER had a problem with erection, but now he does. And it has become so much of a deterrent to our sexual fulfillment these days and even with our romantic getaway which we were really looking forward to. He's says he's so excited about our days together, but repeatedly tries to limit them.

It doesn't make sense to me.

So I'm beginning to think there could be a "sexual performance anxiety" going on. Could this have been a problem for years and I just haven't known about it? Is that why he could look at other women all the time with plenty of energy, because it never required any "performance", but he avoids me because he has to be a "giver", not just a "taker"?

Sometimes I think that he is afraid of intimacy with me and that he likes me to be there for "release" only. I don't know if it's because he doesn't really love me or because he is anxious about performance especially when I'm obviously very interested in him. Is there anything that can help me understand?

I started out by trying to meet his emotional need, that is, sexual fulfillment. It has helped our relationship. Things have come out in the open. Even his wandering eyes have improved during the few times we have been in public together. But I don't know when is the best time to continue fulfilling this emotional need, because I'm not sure how much he wants it from me.

Obs

if he wants to spend more time with you thats great. It means of course there is less time for any A opportunities if any exist at all.
It would seem to be a good sign.

Perhaps what you sensed was his wandering eyes starting to seriously think of moving in the direction of an actual A?
At this time I feel you need to be simply alert and not let suspicions control you or your behaviour. Being alert and looking into his activities is ok just don't obsess on it. If something is telling you there is a problem there probably is, it just may not be an affair.

Baring any actual evidence, or clear A behaviour, you may have hit the reasons right on the head. He wasn't really ready for a more physical and intimate relationship with you. He'd settled into a comfortable relationship for him and perhaps didn't expect change. He may even feel threatened or pressured into performing.

As for the sex itself, sometimes men like women just don't want to despite what all is said about it. If you are clear in making known to him you are available ANYTIME perhaps you should just cuddle and hold each other without any other expectations and if anything does, wonderful!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'd suggest you be watchful but encourage him, without pressure, to be more intimate in various ways. Time will generally show whats been going on .... that or a guilty conscience. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

He needs to get checked for any physical limitations. You need to be more alert. Not at his roving eyes but be alert at your surroundings. He is looking? You should casually mention what looks nice to you. Is that cheating? It c/b or it c/b you letting him know what your preferences are. Maybe he doesn't know what you like or dislike and is bored or too lazy to find out.

Read His Needs/Her Needs, either separately or together.

I recommend you both read it, take the EN questionnaire and call Steve H @ MB for a proactive plan.

L.

Aussieswife and Orchid,

Thanks for your objective, helpful and insightful advice.

Okay, I will be more alert and look at my surroundings as to what's going on and I will make sure that he doesn't feel pressured into intimacy with me.


That's right. And I am hoping that it has only gone this far and that I have caught this in time to successfully work on our marriage.


Yes. And what really unnerves me was his recent revelation of his earlier thoughts of "separation" as a means of solving our marriage problems. What? You mean separation before we have even attempted to identify or solve our marriage problems? This clearly contradicted what he had said before we actually ordered the Marriage Builder's home study course: "it's sad our marriage has come to this" (need for counseling) and "I thought we had a great marriage".


Now that I think about it, yes, he had been looking. For example, one time (before his confession), it became obvious to me that he was looking and I nearly blurted out "Would you like to ask her out for dinner?", but I didn't. This was the "red flag" incident for me and still haunts me.


We have the MB course in our bedroom – tucked into the nightstand, waiting to be fingerprinted by him as much as it has been by me.

Obs:

I do not know the details of your M, I.E. Ages, length of M, kids, etc. This has a bearing on some of the answers that you might get, as well as make it easier to address some of the issues you have presented.

I am a FWS. I had an A. I also like to look at other attractive women. Unfortunately, I acted on this tendency. (ok, more than unfortunately!) However, HNHN states that if something is bothering your Spouse, you should use POJA to eliminate the hurtful behavior.

I notice things. If someone puts a chair on thier front porch, I will notice and file it away. Perfectly useless information. But, if something moves, I look. And if it happens to be a nice looking woman, I try to be discrete about it, but I look. My DW and I will now have discussions about men and women who walk by. It results in some interesting conversations, and not in the negative sense....

Now, if your husband "gawks" then that is very disrespectful to you. But, what has changed about you? An EN of your H may be that his spouse have Physical Attractiveness. This may be offensive to you, but it is a reality. You could be one degree from supermodel, and he would still look at other women. Its a guy thing. And women like to look too! But being disrespectful to you is something he needs to correct.

Also, you have the home study course. You have read it, and you are expecting him to read it now. I would suggest that you take it and listen to it in the car on your way to the romantic getaway your have planned. (If you haven't already gone!) Does your H like to read? He may not actually pick up the book, and this is something you cannot "force" on your H. That is why listening on the CD in the car works so well. You can pause the CD and discuss some of the items on it.

Lousygolfer,

I thank you for your kind interest and helpful thoughts.


First, to my consolation, my husband admitted that his habit of looking at women started in his teen years, long before we ever met. So I don't see it as a direct response to my attractiveness as a wife.

Secondly, since I, having had 5 beautiful children, turn more heads in my mid-40's than I ever did in my early-20's when we married, don't think attractiveness is a main issue. But I will still take it seriously if I find it toward the top of his Emotional Needs list.

I do like the idea of becoming more attractive though, so I have already begun working on it. I'm sure it will have a good effect on our whole marriage.

Even then, he's not one to tell me I'm beautiful or to make me feel beautiful, as he hardly did this in our earliest years, and he hardly does it now. Personally, I think he thinks it would go to my head, so he keeps his distance with appreciation and acknowledgement.

But just lately, during sexual fulfillment, he has been commenting that I am growing "younger", not older like him (stressed out from workaholic behavior in a family-owned business with a controlling father who still holds the puppet-strings and a fairy tale mother who sweeps everything under the rug, plus jealous in-laws who hate his wife), although he is only 3 years older than me.

He has often felt aged by his gray hair, but I think it makes him ravishingly handsome. I hardly have any gray hair, naturally. So when we were out on our romantic getaway, I got the feeling people misunderstood us as a newly wed couple of possibly two different generations.

One time, he didn't like our family portrait because he had gray hair and I didn't. He acted as though I wanted to show him up on purpose! So perhaps he's competitive. The way I understand it, love is not competitive.

Sometimes I think that this "looking" has something to do with what he thinks he's "missing out" on.

Observing:

Lets look in to this a little more:

Even then, he's not one to tell me I'm beautiful or to make me feel beautiful, as he hardly did this in our earliest years, and he hardly does it now. Personally, I think he thinks it would go to my head, so he keeps his distance with appreciation and acknowledgement.

He looks at other women, even to the point of being rude about it to you. But he never compliments you "because it will go to your head" You are upset with his behavior because he is not appreciating what he has by his side. This is very disrespectful behavior.

About this:
He has often felt aged by his gray hair, but I think it makes him ravishingly handsome.

Do you tell him that he is Handsome? Men are vain, but physical attactiveness appears to be stong EN for both of you. He isn't doing it to you, can you do more for him? Count how many times in the next week that you tell him how ggod looking he is (What if he isn't? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Different issue!) Compare it to how often you said it last week or last year. If you do it more for him, would he do it more for you? This was an issue in my M.

About this:
my husband admitted that his habit of looking at women started in his teen years, long before we ever met. So I don't see it as a direct response to my attractiveness as a wife. As I said earlier, looking is ok, and I been doing that since a teenager as well (I still think about my high school classmates in tight Levi's! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) But, if you have asked him not too, and he continues to do it, and even gets worse about it, then this is disrespectful to you.

After reading HNHN, I found out that when one partner in a M is upset about something else, they find something that irritates the other partner and then use it to make the other one uncomfortable. My spouse would comment on my inability to provide enough FS to her during arguements or even casual conversation. This was quite irritating to me. So I stopped providing appreciation to her, with horrible results (this is a serious contraction of our M, but it was a huge part). So, you would like your H to look at you like he looks at the other women. Show you that appreciation. But he doesn't, and then he knows it annoys you, and then he openly "gawks" at other women in your presence.

As for this:
Sometimes I think that this "looking" has something to do with what he thinks he's "missing out" on.

Smokescreen. You can be everthing he ever missed out on. That is what MB taught us.

I would like to comment on this, but I think it is secondary to the above issue:
(stressed out from workaholic behavior in a family-owned business with a controlling father who still holds the puppet-strings and a fairy tale mother who sweeps everything under the rug, plus jealous in-laws who hate his wife), although he is only 3 years older than me.

Lousygolfer,

You have some good points.


Absolutely.


Yes, especially when he comments about his gray hair. But I guess I could do it more often. I will try that. It could really help. I never really thought that he would like to hear that more often.

He IS a very handsome man and I feel very fortunate that way. It's just that he sits across the dinner table from me and hangs his head over the weight of his problems each day and I'm not one for daily pity-parties (pessimism). I wonder why he lets his controlling father continue to hang him from a puppet string (influence). Why can't he leave his father and mother and cling to his wife? Am I not worth it? On the other hand, I wonder how much he really pursues his own career success, making it a priority over his marriage.

That reminds me. Back in our first years, we would come home from church on Sunday (supposedly his day off for the week) and in about 10 minutes he would be out the door to check up on things at work. Gone. It made me feel awful. I felt like he just didn't want to be with me. But it turns out that he was trying to pull the family business out of near bankruptcy. He has played a huge part in the now profitability of the business. But who cares, if you lose your lover in the process?


I can see this happening with him more than me. He does tend to have grudge-holding and revenge characteristics. I have been more of the gullible type. For example, one time when he was belittling (his relatives put down people all the time) me in front of all our children at the dinner table (later years), I came back with a hearty question that exposed his hypocrisy. It silenced him. Then he said, "You're not as gullible as you used to be". He hasn't belittled me that way since!


Yes. And I find myself slightly desperate to have this happen by meeting his most important Emotional Needs. Perhaps he has felt the pressure. So I have backed off. I kindly asked him to let me know when he wants sexual fulfillment by touching me in a certain way. Otherwise, I will think that he is not ready yet and will wait for him.

Before that, and during a recent intimate conversation about our problem marriage, he accused me of not loving him. He said, that by having more and better sex, I was "trying to love" him. I then explained to him that I was only trying to overcome a Sexual Aversion that I had developed toward him over the years and that I feel I have accomplished so much in so little time and that if I didn't love him, I wouldn't have been there for him.

I explained, in rare tears, how desperate I have been for something as simple as affection from him. He took back (and followed up with a formal apology) what he said after I tossed and turned all night over feeling punished by him just for loving him even when I felt that he wasn't loving me. Again, I forgave him.

Not that I need to say this now, but since I'm unloading everything anyway...

This is the same man who after over 20 years of marriage had no interest in giving his wife a marriage bed of our own - even after wishful suggestions from his wife. Perhaps I had asked at a time when finances were not good. It turns out that I started my own online home business (with the money he paid me to continue living in town even though jealous in-laws hated me) and bought our beautiful bedroom set with my own money (I admit, I splurged since my business was very successful).

In times of need, I look to our beautiful marriage bed and how it went into our bedroom a couple years ago, before I even realized I had a Sexual Aversion to him. It tells me a lot about our marriage.

He often tells me how much he appreciates our marriage bed. It has had a great affect on our sex life because I feel comfortable in it, the colors and textures are pleasing and romantic to me and it gets me in the mood INSTANTLY.

Recently, but before we agreed to the Marriage Builder's course, I confided that I could use a bathroom added onto our bedroom. He couldn't find it in himself to agree to an addition onto the house - even if it gave us a better sex life. But I felt like an addition would be Good Compensation for all that the family-owned business has taken away from our marriage and that we could find a way to pay for a small addition onto the house using his business benefits. But no, he "can't" ask that of our in-laws or of the business or even insist on it with his Vice President status (not to mention he's the only one making money as I write) in the business. There again, I am at the expense.

And that's not to mention the property lines that were NOT drawn for our house (adding acres) but that WERE drawn for his in-law's houses before they sold their properties and left town. I told him that he could easily get me to like his business if I felt that our marriage could benefit from it financially in that way, since that's the reason he's supposedly clinging to it. Nothing doing (at least so far). The buck stops when it includes in-laws or business. These have become wedges in our marriage.


Wow. I look forward to that.

Observing:

When you really start answering questions on this web-site, we really start getting to the problems inthe M.

First:

Gone. It made me feel awful. I felt like he just didn't want to be with me. But it turns out that he was trying to pull the family business out of near bankruptcy. He has played a huge part in the now profitability of the business.

This is his families business? And he pulled it out of possible bankruptcy? Do you show appreciation for this? Did it cause all the gray hair? And allow you to have a nice home? (even if the property lines are crooked?) Allow you to raise your children in a safe place? Show that appreciation for this.

Now, in my situation, I worked alot as well. I thought I was providing for my family. My BS worked and did very well, I was not keeping up in her eyes, even with all the work I was doing. When we found MB, she was able to articulate to me tht she was interested in me being home more often. My being at work was depleting her LB. It took 15 years of M to articulate that. I go home more often now. I take days off to spend with her. One of your EN may be for his companionship. Review the EN questionaire.

I liked this:
It silenced him. Then he said, "You're not as gullible as you used to be". He hasn't belittled me that way since!
Be strong, especially in front of his family. Never let anyone put you down.

Reading this quote:
I find myself slightly desperate to have this happen by meeting his most important Emotional Need

You say that he has not read HNHN yet. How do you know that you are meeting his most important EN by having SF with him? For most men the SF EN is pretty high, but it might not be in your H case. One of the points of HNHN is that sometimes in trying to meet anothers EN's we try to meet the ones we think are important. Mine was Appreciation first, then SF (which was always good, even during my A, unusual I know) Recreational Companionship was next. Do you know what his EN's are? From him?

Also, you mentioned in an earlier post that you were providing more SF to him than he could handle. This is good, and SF needs change as we age, as stress increases, etc.

Now your EN was so direct with this:

how desperate I have been for something as simple as affection from him.

It might go to your head, as stated earlier, but wouldn't it be GREAT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would like to look into this with you:
(with the money he paid me to continue living in town even though jealous in-laws hated me)

This is a DJ:
I confided that I could use a bathroom added onto our bedroom. He couldn't find it in himself to agree to an addition onto the house - even if it gave us a better sex life. But I felt like an addition would be Good Compensation for all that the family-owned business has taken away from our marriage and that we could find a way to pay for a small addition onto the house using his business benefits. But no, he "can't" ask that of our in-laws or of the business or even insist on it with his Vice President status

It talks about your EN to have him home more, and to pull more benefits from his work for you. The POJA will allow you to get to a point of deciding what you want to do with your home. You bought your "Marriage Bed" with your own money? Can you pay for the improvements? With the money from your successful online business?

Here is another DJ, if not something that peeks into your EN's and boundaries:
The buck stops when it includes in-laws or business. These have become wedges in our marriage.

Family is important, but you have decide where your boundaries lay, and do not forget that you have benefited for many years from the wages earned by him in the family business. Unless, your H could have done so much better by not working in the family business. And that is a different issue.

Lousygolfer,

Yeah, I've been slacking on appreciation of his job. But in my heart, I never open the refrigerator without thanking the Lord for my husband's gift of food, clothing and shelter for our family. My husband also knows that I appreciate our country dwelling and our breathtaking view.

To show my appreciation of him, I have done what most wives don't get around to doing these days. I have greeted him at the door with a smile when arriving home from work. He once said at the door, "I count on your smile".

All my children learned from their mother to do the same. They absolutely adore him when he gets home from work - even to this day!

That's not at all how it was for my father. We kids got up and scattered out of the room when my father got home from work.

But have you ever paced the house, looking out the door, awaiting the moment with a smile and then find out that 30 minutes, 60 minutes or 90 minutes have passed and your husband is still not home and he never bothered to call and let you know that he was going to be late?

Well, take it from me, it's hard to keep the same smile on your face for that long, when dinner is getting scorched in the oven and kids are crying for food.

Now, I just keep myself busy. No sense in trying to fight it. I've even suggested a dinner time together, offering him the opportunity to go back to work for as long as he wanted, just so that we could have a cherished family dinner together.

For some reason, it can't work out that way. Because this problem came up and that problem came up and he was trying to leave but another problem came up...

How does that fit into the Policy of Joint Agreement?

I do admit, there have been some improvements lately.

Basically, I think he's been doing the job of 10 men. He has become a workaholic. Should a workaholic be given another drink?

Years ago, I mentioned to him that with all the stress he's taken onto his own shoulders, he's going to die at the age of 50 (he only has one year left) and leave me behind as a widow. He seemed to think that was funny and told me that at least I would have a good life insurance plan to draw from. I told him I didn't want life insurance. I wanted HIM!

Now he tells me he's fine as long as he doesn't have problems at home too. Just the other day, he said that if he were to have problems at home, he would have a "nervous breakdown".

Oh great! In other words, this wife cannot be a "squeaky wheel", especially when it comes to our relationship. Okay fine, let's sweep our relationship under the rug!

Through the years, I have suggested that he get an assistant to help him at work. He says he "can't" afford it.

Oh, yah? Maybe his sibling (President of the business) should NOT be losing up to $500,000.00 each year on foolish transactions (I have a copy of a financial report to prove it) and then they could pay for more help. Not only does my husband have to pull his own weight in the business, but he has to pull his sibling's weight AND his sibling's debt too.

This is extremely unfair. It got to this because no one was keeping track of expenses until the last few years. Long before the financial report surfaced (thanks to my husband), my husband would say that no matter how hard he worked he could never get ahead. No wonder.

So you can imagine how I feel when my husband patiently endures huge unethical financial losses but can't seem to "lose" a little money (bed, bathroom) for me.

It's not just money. When a wife sees the abuse of a girl about to happen by one of her husband's employees and tries to put in a good word to him to help prevent it, but he does nothing about it, you wonder what his values are.

Now, one of his main employees is in prison for raping a 14 girl on the business premises. I just had to sit back, be quiet and hear that it happened. How could I possibly be supportive of that?

Yes, all the relatives and in-laws are on his side of the family - except for one (my sibling), who pulled her husband out of the business and left town forever. Only 50% of his siblings who were working in the business are still left.

But the one's who are gone are still getting paid for having ownership in the business. My husband is currently the ONLY reason they are getting paychecks. But they don't know this.

If my husband quit his job, the cash flow would stop. He has considered quitting during the heat of relative/business problems. But then he tells me that he would disappoint SO MANY people. I wish he would put this same kind of energy and devotion into our marriage!

Hopefully there will be a change now that my husband has exposed the true financial status of the business. Already the losses are beginning to ease up, out of sheer shock and scrambling efforts.

And now that we are embarking on the Marriage Builder's course, my husband may be convinced that Just Compensation (bathroom) is in order once he gets his hands on some of his hard-earned money.

Surely the Policy of Joint Agreement could be of use here.

After all, I've been sinking 10's of 1,000.00's of my income into our growing kid's annual hobbies, traveling and education. I want to know if my husband loves me enough to do something financial for our romantic relationship.

At least I hear the property lines for our family are supposedly on their way. In my husband's own typical words, "I'll believe it when I see it".

Here's a little more into my husband's mindset using some of his own words (poor guy, he's not here to defend himself).

About 15 years ago, we were on a soul-searching International trip, when he admitted that he married for "selfish reasons". He confirmed that in my mind a couple years ago when he came home from a frustrated afternoon at work, pounded his fist on the dining table and said, "Serve me"! Well, normally he is a soft-spoken person and doesn't like to hurt anyone's feelings. So what's really in his head?

Both our parents are still married but have slave/master relationships. My husband and I have agreed that we want to do things differently.

As for working somewhere else, my husband has confided that he wouldn't want to be anyone's "slave" (employee). So he would need to have his own business. Besides, I would get queasy at trusting him (fidelity) outside of town in another business anyway (haven't told him that).

I have asked him to join me in business, but it never seems to sit well with him. I'm not sure if joining me would be perceived as a "leash" to him or his relatives or that he is unsure of his financial success outside his current occupation or that he wants to stick around and receive the financial rewards he sees coming after over 30 years of input to the family-owned business.

When I was first successful with my business, he and his relatives really struggled to adjust to it. The funny thing is that I was never interested in having my own business until he bought me a used computer and paid me to live in town.

Presently, I could financially live on my own (not that I intend to) or support our family if I had to. And that's scary, because it can lead to more independence. But now, when I buy something, my husband doesn't lean over my shoulder asking me where THIS $20.00 went and why did THAT $20.00 get spent. I cut my own hair just so that I don't have to hear about the bill. Interestingly, he now has 10's of 1,000.00's in the bank for retirement. It may have been put there in case things go awry with the family-owned business, forcing us to leave town so that he could cope.

Okay, I want to get back to appreciation...

After our romantic getaway, I planned to return to my practice of greeting him at the door. I asked the kids to let me know when they see his truck come up the driveway. They did and I ran out the door in an attempt to be seated on a bench waiting for him with a smile. It worked. He loved it. So I asked him if he could do something for me that I learned from the MB course book, that is, call his wife to let her know he is coming home. Perfect! Then we could finally meet each other's schedule. Why didn't we think of that before? He agreed that it was a good idea. BUT, he already seems to have forgotten.

I'm still waiting for a call.

TIMEOUT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Before I go any further, I would like to progress in the Marriage Builder's course so that my husband and I KNOW each other's Emotional Needs.

At this time, it's hard to answer more questions without first knowing these needs.

Plus the time and energy it takes for me to post, I would like to save some of that for my husband, who is noticing that I have things on my mind every time I post. He can read me like a book - one of his great talents!

We have a family vacation (he loves our few vacations together) starting this weekend plus some traveling after that, so I won't be getting much in answers until we can be home together, working on the course.

He has recently indicated that he doesn't want our relationship to go back (withdrawal). This is good news to me and I look forward to both of us fixing our relationship, once and for all.

Until then, I appreciate all the insight given to me by posters. God bless you!

Observing:

Sorry, no timeouts in MB Land.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will start at the top:

Yeah, I've been slacking on appreciation of his job. But in my heart, I never open the refrigerator without thanking the Lord for my husband's gift of food, clothing and shelter for our family. My husband also knows that I appreciate our country dwelling and our breathtaking view.

Don’t thank the Lord, (nobody knows but him, and you expect the Lord to provide the light to your Husband.) Just thank your Husband. In person, and in public. The rest gets easy.

To show my appreciation of him, I have done what most wives don't get around to doing these days. I have greeted him at the door with a smile when arriving home from work. He once said at the door, "I count on your smile".

So Do it Some more.
All my children learned from their mother to do the same. They absolutely adore him when he gets home from work - even to this day!

That's not at all how it was for my father. We kids got up and scattered out of the room when my father got home from work.

You can’t fix this, work on your M.

But have you ever paced the house, looking out the door, awaiting the moment with a smile and then find out that 30 minutes, 60 minutes or 90 minutes have passed and your husband is still not home and he never bothered to call and let you know that he was going to be late?

Well, take it from me, it's hard to keep the same smile on your face for that long, when dinner is getting scorched in the oven and kids are crying for food.

No, I was the one at work. And my DW was pacing the floor. I come home now. I a m Self-Employed, and subject to lots of problems at work. But, I go home now. And I keep my W in the loop.

Now, I just keep myself busy. No sense in trying to fight it. I've even suggested a dinner time together, offering him the opportunity to go back to work for as long as he wanted, just so that we could have a cherished family dinner together.

For some reason, it can't work out that way. Because this problem came up and that problem came up and he was trying to leave but another problem came up...

How does that fit into the Policy of Joint Agreement? You haven’t practiced it yet. One discussion does not equal POJA. And it certainly doesn’t change 15+ years of M.

I do admit, there have been some improvements lately.

Basically, I think he's been doing the job of 10 men. He has become a workaholic. Should a workaholic be given another drink?

Years ago, I mentioned to him that with all the stress he's taken onto his own shoulders, he's going to die at the age of 50 (he only has one year left) and leave me behind as a widow. He seemed to think that was funny and told me that at least I would have a good life insurance plan to draw from. I told him I didn't want life insurance. I wanted HIM!

Sounds like an EN!

Now he tells me he's fine as long as he doesn't have problems at home too. Just the other day, he said that if he were to have problems at home, he would have a "nervous breakdown".

Oh great! In other words, this wife cannot be a "squeaky wheel", especially when it comes to our relationship. Okay fine, let's sweep our relationship under the rug!

My Spouse had “problems” at work, and an awful home life that at its roots was my fault, according to her. It drove her to take AD’s and now that we have learned RH and POJA, she no longer takes the AD’s.

Through the years, I have suggested that he get an assistant to help him at work. He says he "can't" afford it.

Oh, yah? Maybe his sibling (President of the business) should NOT be losing up to $500,000.00 each year on foolish transactions (I have a copy of a financial report to prove it) and then they could pay for more help. Not only does my husband have to pull his own weight in the business, but he has to pull his sibling's weight AND his sibling's debt too.

That’s his job to hire someone, not your job to tell him him to do it, but to support him. Anyone can tell someone else what to do. (I know, I am doing it here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

This is extremely unfair. It got to this because no one was keeping track of expenses until the last few years. Long before the financial report surfaced (thanks to my husband), my husband would say that no matter how hard he worked he could never get ahead. No wonder.

I Am an Accountant, someone is always paying attention to the numbers, its their response to them that is important. I am glad to hear that your H has picked up the ball. Also, the Father will die and your H gets a piece, doesn’t he?

So you can imagine how I feel when my husband patiently endures huge unethical financial losses but can't seem to "lose" a little money (bed, bathroom) for me.

If the owners take the money, than that is their choice, but you seem to presume that your H should have earned it as wages?

It's not just money. When a wife sees the abuse of a girl about to happen by one of her husband's employees and tries to put in a good word to him to help prevent it, but he does nothing about it, you wonder what his values are.

Now, one of his main employees is in prison for raping a 14 girl on the business premises. I just had to sit back, be quiet and hear that it happened. How could I possibly be supportive of that?

You should have called the Police. Leave this one alone, you can’t help here at all. You didn’t know and you didn’t do the right thing, the rest is revisionism to make your self feel good.

Yes, all the relatives and in-laws are on his side of the family - except for one (my sibling), who pulled her husband out of the business and left town forever. Only 50% of his siblings who were working in the business are still left.

So what. Your husband is there, more for him.

But the one's who are gone are still getting paid for having ownership in the business. My husband is currently the ONLY reason they are getting paychecks. But they don't know this.

So what, You cannot determine ownership, only the owners can. And If your H is upset with those choices, then I think he should make some choices about that. (He should use POJA with you here)

If my husband quit his job, the cash flow would stop. He has considered quitting during the heat of relative/business problems. But then he tells me that he would disappoint SO MANY people. I wish he would put this same kind of energy and devotion into our marriage!

Believe me, NO ONE is irreplaceable in the workforce. As great as your H is, there is someone better. As great as the business that he runs is, there is a better one out there. If he leaves, the business will go on, to crash or burn, or maybe to thrive and flourish, We can only control our own destiny. Your desire to have him home is the reason for you to have him show you the same type of devotion.

Hopefully there will be a change now that my husband has exposed the true financial status of the business. Already the losses are beginning to ease up, out of sheer shock and scrambling efforts.

And now that we are embarking on the Marriage Builder's course, my husband may be convinced that Just Compensation (bathroom) is in order once he gets his hands on some of his hard-earned money.

Surely the Policy of Joint Agreement could be of use here.

Not with all the Disrespectful Judgements (DJ’s) displayed by these two paragraphs.

After all, I've been sinking 10's of 1,000.00's of my income into our growing kid's annual hobbies, traveling and education. I want to know if my husband loves me enough to do something financial for our romantic relationship.

So stop. YOU put the $ you earned into the things that you FELT were the most important, and then you project on to your H his failure to give you the other things that you wanted, but decided not to buy.

At least I hear the property lines for our family are supposedly on their way. In my husband's own typical words, "I'll believe it when I see it".

Here's a little more into my husband's mindset using some of his own words (poor guy, he's not here to defend himself).

Another example of you making sure you get yours….

About 15 years ago, we were on a soul-searching International trip, when he admitted that he married for "selfish reasons". He confirmed that in my mind a couple years ago when he came home from a frustrated afternoon at work, pounded his fist on the dining table and said, "Serve me"! Well, normally he is a soft-spoken person and doesn't like to hurt anyone's feelings. So what's really in his head?

My Spouse would bring up things from 15 years ago and project them on to what I am now. I am no longer that person, or doing those things. Accept you H for what he is now and trying to do now. These are DJ’s again.

Both our parents are still married but have slave/master relationships. My husband and I have agreed that we want to do things differently.

They were born thirty years before you, different time, different circumstances. The agreement is nice, but do you feel you are in a S/M relationship?

As for working somewhere else, my husband has confided that he wouldn't want to be anyone's "slave" (employee). So he would need to have his own business. Besides, I would get queasy at trusting him (fidelity) outside of town in another business anyway (haven't told him that).

Earlier, you described his working relationship as a VP as similar to this slavery you describe here. But he is close to the top here, everywhere else would be a step down, admire his the job that he has. And make no presumptions that he would get into an A if he went to another town. He doesn’t have to leave town to have an A. I am proof of this…. And my town is probably smaller than yours...

I have asked him to join me in business, but it never seems to sit well with him. I'm not sure if joining me would be perceived as a "leash" to him or his relatives or that he is unsure of his financial success outside his current occupation or that he wants to stick around and receive the financial rewards he sees coming after over 30 years of input to the family-owned business.

When I was first successful with my business, he and his relatives really struggled to adjust to it. The funny thing is that I was never interested in having my own business until he bought me a used computer and paid me to live in town.

So what, that is your in-laws adjustment. “Paid me to live in town” What’s up with that?

Presently, I could financially live on my own (not that I intend to) or support our family if I had to. And that's scary, because it can lead to more independence. But now, when I buy something, my husband doesn't lean over my shoulder asking me where THIS $20.00 went and why did THAT $20.00 get spent. I cut my own hair just so that I don't have to hear about the bill. Interestingly, he now has 10's of 1,000.00's in the bank for retirement. It may have been put there in case things go awry with the family-owned business, forcing us to leave town so that he could cope.

Some more for you! I recommend that my clients put as much $ as possible in retirement accounts…

Okay, I want to get back to appreciation...

After our romantic getaway, I planned to return to my practice of greeting him at the door. I asked the kids to let me know when they see his truck come up the driveway. They did and I ran out the door in an attempt to be seated on a bench waiting for him with a smile. It worked. He loved it. So I asked him if he could do something for me that I learned from the MB course book, that is, call his wife to let her know he is coming home. Perfect! Then we could finally meet each other's schedule. Why didn't we think of that before? He agreed that it was a good idea. BUT, he already seems to have forgotten.

I'm still waiting for a call.

No, he didn’t forget, you didn’t put in the effort. Get out there on the bench, but tell him you would have had a Soda, beer, cocktail, whatever, waiting for him, if he had called first…

Observing: Lots of 2x4’s I am hitting you with here. But the best part about MB and this website, is that it allows you to get advice and support that you can take or leave as you see fit. Take what I am saying as help to see your EN’s more clearly, and your desire to meet your H’s EN’s.

Lousygolfer,


My husband doesn't work on MB time. He works on his own time.

I respect that. And I would want him to do that for me.

So I don't have much information on Emotional Needs yet. We're still working on Assignment #1 in the MB course – but that's a huge step forward.

In the meantime, he is responding very positively to (Plan A and) the MB course that we have begun together. He has even confided that he has a lot more to work on - than I do. That's because he knows our relationship has been very one-sided through the years.

Except that he stood me up today by being absent for our first Saturday get-together (part of our 15 hours a week). He didn't appear to be feeling very affectionate or conversational.

Yesterday, during his chronic pessimism that eventually follows travel (doesn't matter which one of us is doing the traveling), he decided that I wasn't happy, even though I was very happy, I was smiling and everyone else present (about a dozen people) knew I was happy.

I can see this PESSIMISM is going to be a core problem in our recovery from Withdrawal. Every time we make progress on our relationship, he turns around and judges my happiness again. He thinks he KNOWS what I think at all times. The problem is, for a pessimistic person, the judgment is usually negative. But people know me as a positive person.

Well, misery loves company. But I'm not miserable. So I guess I don't make good company!

Needless to say, I was completely turned off from Sexual Fulfillment last night (he didn't bother to initiate the good-night kiss, so I did) since he DECIDED "what I was feeling" for the day, even after an initially wonderful reunion (travel), and had gone into his "BAD WEATHER MOODS".

No need to verify anything about how I feel, just negatively say, "What's on your mind?" or "What did I do wrong?" One time, I mentioned to him that he is asking me to examine his conscience for him. I don't want to do that. That's his job.

Today, when he asked me why I didn't remind him of our agreement to visit, I kindly reminded him that I am not his mother. He already knows that I don't beg anymore.

So what should happen tonight? He knows I feel sexy after a bath. But there has been hardly any affection today and I was stood up for conversation as well. But he gets passionate Sexual Fulfillment as soon as I go to bed – if he so desires!

If you haven't guessed, I am here to VENT.


Am I supposed to bring a beer bottle in the bedroom for Sexual Fulfillment too? If I'm not enough for him, whether it's a friendly greeting when he comes home from work or Sexual Fulfillment in the bedroom, then maybe he should have married a beer bottle!

Before I come back with information on our Emotional Needs lists, I wanted to comment on my last post, plus ask a question.

Comment:

It happened again.

I'm beginning to see a pattern in my husband's behavior. He's back to work. Our getaway, vacation and travel are over. He has become like his father again, that is, "since I am miserable, I want you to be miserable too".

Let me explain.

He did get Sexual Fulfillment the other night (Saturday), just like he wanted (he initiated). In fact, I gave myself so joyfully and completely to him that he said, "Never in all my life..."

He also deposited a carload of Love Units in my Love Bank by telling me everything I ever wanted to hear about how he feels about me (we had been apart for a few days for travel reasons).

But before we began, I gently and repeatedly asked him WHY he decided I was unhappy on Friday, when I was happy that day. He admitted that he ASSUMED I was unhappy with him because he had accidentally insulted a good friend (with status) of mine at the dinner we attended.

I explained to him that it did not make me unhappy because I know how easy it is to say the wrong thing in public and that God quickly gave me the right words to bail him out (of the hole he dug himself into), so dignity had been restored immediately for my friend, with cheerfulness and a good sense of humor. I was so pleased it had worked out for the better.

He said he was sorry for judging me unfairly on Friday and for not being there for the meeting we had set aside for Saturday.

But what happens the next day, on Sunday? He does it again.

He ASSUMES I am unhappy for another reason.

Coincidently (or maybe not), it happened right before our time together (part of our 15 hours a week) that we had agreed on and set aside. As a result, we couldn't seem to get the words out right during our meeting/conversation, so we stopped for dinner.

Things didn't get any better during dinner since one of the older kids (who tends to side with him) picked up on his theme and joined in by unfairly criticizing me at the table. So after dinner I quietly slipped into the bathroom for a long private bath instead of returning to the bedroom for our meeting.

I didn't want to start in on Love Busters!

Even though I am the kind of person who likes to work things out right away and not sleep on it (allowing it to fester), my reasoning was, "I was happy all day today, and now I'm being tempted to lose that happiness for no valid reason, so I am going to do happy things and not let him get me down".

Here is my question(s):

What does a wife do to keep a relationship with her husband positive, when his tendency is to be negative about it, even during a healthy Plan A?

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

Why does he spend so much time "pointing a finger in my face" and telling me what's wrong with my happiness? Why can't he just look in the mirror and see where the scowl is coming from?

His ATTITUDE is very wearing on me and has the potential of putting us right back to where we came from before I found this website.

Do you think my husband needs additional (personal) counseling for something other than marriage problems?

Could he have a deep-rooted self-esteem or envy problem that is unrelated to our marriage but shows up in his daily communication?

Or is this normal for people coming out of Withdrawal?

I feel like I am on a perpetual rollercoaster. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Observing:

Welcome back!

One of the things about MB Land is you do get to vent. AND when you vent, people respond in ways you never expected, and can even lead you to answers you didn't expect, or even ask.

Ok, your last post was a vent. You had worked with yout H regarding MB, and set up some time, and he seemed to be responding well. Then he came home, made several assumptions, and blew you off.

Very good reason to vent. And then later you still had SF with him? Could not tell from your posting if you did or not. I will assume you did not.

I notice in your posting that you mention Plan A and Withdrawal. These are reserved for marriages where an Affair has occured, or suspected. In your earlier posts, you refer to him having the tendency to possibly stray, but do not say that he has. Plan A would be needed to meet his EN, and to draw him closer to you and get him away from the OW. Withdrawal is the process of extracting oneself from the FOG-like trance that consumes WS.

Some of his behaviors would seem to indicate that he could be having an A. After returning from travel, he is irritated and withdrawn. He knows that he is to meet with you on Saturday and he constructs issues to delay the meeting. Could be A like behaviors (Just a thought, please share yours.)

His pessimism is a form of Disrespectful Judgements (DJ). He presumes you are feeling a particular way and then acts accordingly.

Marriage Builders is a process of changing behaviors and habits so that you can have a stronger Marriage. EN's are discovered, analyzed and then the behaviors and habits that hurt the other spouse are reduced through thoughtful discussion and honesty on the part of the M partners without LB.

Your H is in the Habit of assuming what your attitude is. Using non-threatening statments like "I feel" or "I respond like this to" can help reduce this habit. But these habits are ingrained in our physche. It takes awhile to adddress.

Here is an example here:


The Policy of Radical Honesty can be used here. "What's on your mind" can become a stepping stone to a long conversation if you respond in a better manner. What was on your mind? You would have told me wouldn't you? If I had asked? No history between us. No "you should know already" between us. So respond in a similar manner to your H.



This was severly judgemental of you, IMO. You need to start changing these behaviors in both of you. He should have remembered that you were meeting. That is his job. And you are not his mother. But you do want a better M, don't you? If you had said, "I was hoping that you would remember because it was important to both of us, but with all the other things going on, it may have slipped from your memory, and this being the first time, lets get started now, (or at 6 pm, 8pm whatever) Then have the meeting. And schedule it for next week. And be sure to remind him. It's important to you, and will become more important to him as the habits and behaviors start to change. Because from your response, you may not even have another meeting planned, do you?

So, your day was ruined by him, and then you expect that you were going to have SF "if he so desires" with him that evening after he stepped all over your feelings. You do not have to SF with him just because he desires it. You both have the right to want to have it. You could make him talk to you for a while first. Maybe not address what is in Assignment #1, but maybe what else happened that day. You have had a bath, you are feeling sexy, he knows it, let him salivate a bit and talk with you. And you have to be non-judgemental during this conversation. Does not mean you cannot respond to a verbal attack, but you can hold your own guns, to aviod a bad scene.

As for my quote about the bench, I think you missed the point. There are little cat and mouse or carrot and stick behaviors that can spice up any M and can also allow one to fix the bad habits in a M. You had stated that he was happy to see you waiting for him on the bench. But he didn't call. So, tell him what he gets if he does call. You will be on the bench, but you have to know when he is coming. The drink (and you!) are the reward.

and I will end with this quote:



That is why you came here wasn't it? His wandering eyes? You want him to fulfill your EN, and you need to address his. But you can become enough for him. Strangely, I became all my BS needed, and she bacame mine, once we started changing our behaviors into more positive ones. My wife wouldn't offer me a beer for many years. "get it yourself" she was thinking. Now, she wants to get me one, and I offer her one, or a glass of wine, her real preference. We changed our behaviors. Took time. Took yelling. Actually, it just took the time to get to know one another better using the techniques on this website, and in the books. You two still haven't got to step one. Wait till you get to Assignment #6 or 7, and then reflect on how far you have come.

Hope to hear from you soon. It seems like during the time between posts you actually did make progress. Remember, it is a marathon, not a sprint.

Observing:

Did you notice that our posts crossed?

My post tried to post at the same time as yours. Quite a difference your next post makes.


So, after an awful Friday and Saturday daytime, you had a particular good evening. Conversation, discussing an issue important with you, and then SF that took his breath away. Good! Good!

Yet the next time:



Punishment. Before Conviction. It is inappropriate for your child to critize you, and if he was following the lead of you H, doubly so. Both have to answer for that. Have that conversation with your older kid tommorrow. So, you didn't LB, very good. But you avoided what you had scheduled with your H. That is punishment. And if your H wanted to aviod it, he got what he wanted. So he wins on all counts. Bad for you. He is tring to avoid these meetings, hold his feet to the fire. And do not forget, if you succed in getting him to talk about other things, then it is easier to talk about the assignments. And you can introduce parts of the assignments without his knowledge by studying ahead.

Is your H Negative? Could be. Does he have a long time of doing these bad habits and behaviors? Yes. Will he change overnight? Not without a lobotomy. Can he change over the next three months? Yes. Six months? Much more likely.

Now, in my sitch, I changed overnight. Not completly, but Dday was my frontal lobotomy. I like to think that I have gotten better. Do I backslide? yes, and my W tells me about it. But she doesn't have to LB to get me there.



1. Tell him the disrespectful things that he does, one at a time, and preferably when he does them, in a calm voice, and ask him not to do them anymore. "pointing his finger in your face" for example.

2. Tell him how you are feeling so that he doesn't assume. Do not assume on your part how he thinks you are feeling. Tell him.

3. Tell him how great Saturday night was and how it reminds you of how he acted when you were courting. I.E.: Talk, more talk, even more talk, and finally SF. And especially about the positive comments during and after.

4. Call him at work and leave a positive voice message, about how you were thinking about him and justed wanted to tell him about it. (emails and text messages work well, too.)

5. When he is being negative, use some of the reverse babble arguments (Search for ORCHID posts) here on this site and try to minimize their effect. Very appropriate if he has been involved with an Affair, but has ability to help change thinking by reflecting what has been said to you back to the speaker.

6. Understand that no one can change overnight, celebrate with him the small successes you see.

7. Repeat #6

8. Repeat #6

9. Repeat #6

10. Work on yourself to become more of the woman you would like to be. Then, no matter what he does, you are still a better person.

As for your last couple of questions, we need more info before I can get into them.

Enjoying this conversation with you.