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AGG, I have a bunch of little thoughts.
First, I don’t see you being rigid. Just because you weren’t willing to change your entire schedule around doesn’t mean you’re rigid. It means you have a life already, unlike a 20 year old.
Second, what’s important? Are the daily routines important? Maybe not in and of themselves, but those routines provide comfort and stability. Often the routines are ways to bigger goals, look at liturgy for example. Other “small” things fall into this category as well. Small things also have a way of taking up a lot of time and energy. “I have measured my life in coffee spoons” says TS Eliot. So much of life is enjoying the daily grind.
Third, I think when the right one comes along, it will feel seamless, at least in the beginning.
Fourth, there is nothing at all wrong with enjoying living your life exactly the way you want to without any compromises. I’ve been able to do that, more or less, for the last three years.
Divorced.
2 Girls
Remarried 10/11/08
Widowed 11/5/08
Remarrying 12/17/15
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While kids are non-negotiable, your routine with them is. It is not the existence of the kids that makes it challenging for your partner, it is the routine which you have had with them for the past 10 years and to which anyone who comes into your life is an outsider. I agree to some extent. At the same time, I do want to preserve the routine that the kids have become used to, because they seem to thrive in it. I don't expect anyone to come into my life seamlessly, but I also don't want to bring someone in and tell the kids "OK, folks, things are gonna change around here!", be it the house rules and schedules, things we do or don't do, etc. Perhaps that is why Harley recommends to not blend families until kids are out of the house. Remember, the kids are not “baggage”. Your expectations of the behavior of your partner are the baggage that is really hard to carry. Hmmm, but my expectations are mine to own, just like everyone else's... Why are they "baggage"? I agree that the fewer expectations a person has, the easier it would be for them to find a match, but I also don't want to ignore or supress my expectations, as I will probably regret it in the end. So your long scary list is fine. It seems an overkill of thoughts and rules, but in fact it is the essence of what would make you feel uncomfortable with a partner, so make it as long as you want. Exactly, that is what I was arguing above <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. (If I were you, I would add “no G name” Haven’t you noticed that GGs don’t work out?! Hehe, I'll make a note of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />. I hope everything else is fine. Good luck. Sure is, thanks. How's the new job/place working out? Lemme know if you are up for a visitor sometime, I go up your way quite a bit. AGG
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those routines provide comfort and stability. Often the routines are ways to bigger goals, look at liturgy for example. So much of life is enjoying the daily grind. At least for me, that is totally true. For others, it may not be - e.g. the only routine in my ex's life seemed to be chaos disguised as "spontaneity" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But for me, I like having my routines, and it is difficult to change them. And I am not sure I want to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Third, I think when the right one comes along, it will feel seamless, at least in the beginning. I hope so. Fourth, there is nothing at all wrong with enjoying living your life exactly the way you want to without any compromises. Interesting, that is very much my thinking too. Having spent this weekend "single" again, I remembered how much I enjoy my "normal" life, doing things with my kids that we like to do, without having to flex mine (and theirs) routines, preferences, and activities to accommodate someone who does not mesh well with them. Really, I have already seen this in the past few months, when I started realizing that G was not for me. It was when the kids and I went camping (G didn't want to), and I realized how much we enjoy the outdoors and how much of it we would have to compromise because G is very averse to "sweating", or when we went to a baseball game (G stayed home because a 12:30 game was too early for her) and I realized how much more energy I have in the first half of the day than in the second, etc. So, spending this weekend enjoying MY routine was very pleasant, and I think that I agree that I do want to live my life "my" way. Even if I have to be single to do it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. AGG
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AGG, Remember the e-harmony slogan. It's all about finding the person the most compatible to start with and then sanding smooth the rough edges. Not finding someone that needs an axe to shape. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you are an ISTJ, then you probably need someone very close to that who would be "just" as rigid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am an ENTP who was with an ISFJ and oh my gosh we were totally wrong there. I am now with an ENFP and find it so easy. Maybe you could think of it as finding someone compatible with you rather than finding yourself rigid. When you are ready... V.
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It's all about finding the person the most compatible to start with and then sanding smooth the rough edges. Not finding someone that needs an axe to shape. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LMAO, good description! If you are an ISTJ, then you probably need someone very close to that who would be "just" as rigid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Well, that is the weird thing - G is an ISTJ or INTJ, though not as strong a "J" as I am (who is?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). So we did have a lot of compatibility in that sense, we really "got" each other that way - there was no push/pull regarding socializing, no problems with "illogical" intuitive/feeler wants, etc <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But still, something was obviously off; though I don't think it was personality based, I think it was FOO based, or something similar. AGG
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...so when I saw the clutter, or started seeing her schedule, or realized she's not very active, not into cooking/cleaning/household chores, I said "so what, she's a wonderful person, great personality match to me, why let these small things get in the way?". I just wanted to point out that some of these "small things" aren't small at all. Harley has five areas of compatibility that he recommends to those looking for a marriage partner, found here: Choosing the Right One to Marry. The two in particular I'm referring to I'll quote below, but first the reason why these are so important: The reason I have picked these five, which are usually not found in most tests of compatibility, is that incompatibility in any of these areas make the Policy of Joint Agreement particularly difficult to implement. As a psychologist, I save marriages by showing spouses how to change their behavior to create a fulfilling marriage. But the categories that I will share with you now are traits that even trained psychologists have great difficulty trying to change. And so when you date, look for compatibility in these areas. 2. Energy . You should marry someone roughly equivalent to you in energy. If one of you lays around watching TV while the other scurries about and can't sit still, it's probably a bad match. The reason energy is an important determiner of compatibility is that so many of your lifestyle pre-dispositions will depend on your energy. Leisure time activities and sexual interest are particularly sensitive to the amount of energy you have. People high in energy enjoy activities that burn that energy, even after work, while those with low energy levels would find such activities to be exhausting. And regarding sex, the more energy a person has, the more sex he or she tends to need. Since leisure activities and sex are two of the best ways to deposit love units after marriage, incompatibility in these areas can make it very difficult for a couple to stay in love. While the schedule differences were somewhat of a problem for you (you both adjusted your schedules a bit to accomodate the other), you just couldn't overcome the energy difference. 5. Values. Moral values usually dictate how we behave. The Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty are moral values that I encourage all married couples to adopt because they create and sustain love. But even when these two important values are agreed to at the time of marriage, conflicts with other moral values can make the creation of a compatible lifestyle very difficult to achieve. Getting back to our Christmas example, it's a cultural difference that makes a spouse unskilled in knowing how to celebrate Christmas. But if you marry an Orthodox Jew, it's more than skill that will be a problem. He will probably be deeply offended by such a celebration. And that offense comes from his moral convictions, not just his cultural background. A discussion of values is always a good idea when on a date, because if you find your values to be very divergent, it will make it difficult for you to agree on a lifestyle that you enthusiastically share.
A question often asked in a compatibility test is "Would you be willing to give up your religion to please your spouse?" It's not really a fair question, because it usually doesn't come to that drastic measure. But the point is important, and I would rephrase the question a little differently. I would ask, "Do you have any beliefs that would prevent you from following the Policy of Joint Agreement?" That is actually more to the point. Is there some belief that is so important to you that you would be willing to let your spouse suffer rather that give it up? If so, you should be certain that your spouse shares the same belief. This is where your different values regarding financial independence, work ethic, responsibilities, etc. come in to play. You might share many values, but if the ones you don't share are big enough, there can be big problems.
Last edited by AFS; 09/18/06 05:05 PM.
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Maybe I am missing your point, but I think that in reality, I am becoming LESS flexible and open to these things, not more so. Well, I must of missed this part of your life on MB. I just seemed to remember you being more rigid. Maybe I painted the wrong picture. Whereas now, I think I'll run for the hills when I see these traits again. So, I think I am becoming more and more picky, as I expand my list of "can't stands", not less picky. Don't you agree? If this is the case and you would date people when in depression then “yes” I agree that you are pickier but I also see that you must be smarter too. I sure don’t remember this part of you though but then I only remember reading a few of your stories on women you broke it off with. So now you have discovered more of things that just won't work. Is that so bad? I'd say it's a good thing. I think that this is where I am now. I did learn from this relationship, so I am not analyzing it as much as I am doing some self assessment. For instance, it kinda bothers me at how free I feel now, now that I am back into my usual routine of focusing on the kids, doing house projects, not having to worry about someone else's schedule (especially when it's incompatible with mine), etc. It makes me wonder if I am simply not meant to have relationships until my kids are grown, or until I become more accommodating of differences <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.
AGG AGG, See this paragraph seems like a negative attitude to me. Read it, you start off positive saying you learned from the relationship and then you bomb from there. Why let it bother you that you are staying busy and getting over this quickly? Why wonder that you aren’t meant to have a relationship? Why do you have to become more accomodating to differences that are extreme? G’s differences were extreme, I feel like I’ve said that word a million times and while you know it yourself you still seem to be beating yourself up wondering why you couldn’t have a relationship with a person who was unstable. G was like a teenager who never grew up, wanting to sleep in until 11:00, watch her shows on television etc, have no responsibilities. etc. When you date a woman with slight differences, who has maturity, and you come on here stating you can’t tolerate these, then I’ll hammer you but sheesh AGG, you dated an unstable person. Would you just accept this fact and quit beating yourself up. Would you try to think more positive?! I really think you should stop the self-assessment because it's not driving you nuts, but it is driving me nuts reading it.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> okay, had to joke a little...well kind of... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> What if I were coming on here saying, “Why couldn’t I accept J for who he was?” “Why couldn’t I just live date to date and trust him to know he will marry me in 5 years?” "I must not be a very accomodating, accepting person either. You would be so calling me out so quickly. Well, I hope I am helping you and not just being a pain in the rear. Take care, Anna
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Just letting you know, Very good post AFS!
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2. Energy . You should marry someone roughly equivalent to you in energy. If one of you lays around watching TV while the other scurries about and can't sit still, it's probably a bad match. The reason energy is an important determiner of compatibility is that so many of your lifestyle pre-dispositions will depend on your energy. Leisure time activities and sexual interest are particularly sensitive to the amount of energy you have. People high in energy enjoy activities that burn that energy, even after work, while those with low energy levels would find such activities to be exhausting. And regarding sex, the more energy a person has, the more sex he or she tends to need. Since leisure activities and sex are two of the best ways to deposit love units after marriage, incompatibility in these areas can make it very difficult for a couple to stay in love. Wow, AFS, good stuff. I think I better revisit those articles by Harley. AGG
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G was like a teenager who never grew up, wanting to sleep in until 11:00, watch her shows on television etc, have no responsibilities. etc. When you date a woman with slight differences, who has maturity, and you come on here stating you can’t tolerate these, then I’ll hammer you but sheesh AGG, you dated an unstable person. Would you just accept this fact and quit beating yourself up. Would you try to think more positive?! Yeah, well, I am a very strong Thinker too, can you tell? But I think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> that you are right in this case, and I appreciate the 2x4... I'll try not to think so much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. What if I were coming on here saying, “Why couldn’t I accept J for who he was?” “Why couldn’t I just live date to date and trust him to know he will marry me in 5 years?” "I must not be a very accomodating, accepting person either. You would be so calling me out so quickly. Yup, you know it! Well, I hope I am helping you and not just being a pain in the rear. No, I think you are quite perceptive, so I appreciate your insight. Thanks! AGG
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But I think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> that you are right in this case, and I appreciate the 2x4... Can I have that in writing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> We gotta quit shockin' each other like this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
~~Socrates
The secret to happiness is wanting what you already have. ~anonymous
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AGG,
Could you clarify - was it that she didn't mention it, or that she was 100K in debt?
Being 100K in debt doesn't necessarily imply poor money management skills. I have about 60K in student loans, for myself and four of my kids, as well as credit card debt. I think I am pretty good at money management - my repayment history is perfect and I can tell you where almost every dollar goes. No one complains if you acquire several hundred thousands of dollars of mortgage debt - what is the problem with acquiring personal debt in order to educate or feed your children?
If I were ever to remarry (not that that is going to happen) my debt would not significantly affect my partner.. It's MY debt, and he would not be responsible for it. I would be able to pay it off faster if I could share the mortgage payment and utilities, but he also would, presumably, be able to live more cheaply than he would alone.
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Could you clarify - was it that she didn't mention it, or that she was 100K in debt? It was mostly the former. my debt would not significantly affect my partner.. It's MY debt, and he would not be responsible for it. OTOH, a bankruptcy does in fact affect your partner, their credit rating, the ability to get future loans, etc. Which is why her not telling me about it was that much worse. AGG
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OTOH, a bankruptcy does in fact affect your partner, their credit rating, the ability to get future loans, etc. Which is why her not telling me about it was that much worse.
AGG Maybe it depends on the state you are in but I believe in Texas if you marry someone who has a previous bankruptcy then this is only on the person's record who filed for bankruptcy. The only credit it would impead upon is the person who went bankrupt. That is unless you try to establish a joint mortgage or a joint credit card account then both person's credit would be assessed and it would matter. I know a couple where the guy had just gone bankrupt, then he re-married, the woman had good credit, she put the the mortgage and all other loans solely in her name to get the best interest rate possible. The fact she was married to a man who had previously went bankrupt before marriage did not effect the loans since she established the loans as the sole borrower. If a boyfriend told me he went bankrupt, then my concern would be to learn why this happened and how his spending habits are today. If they have some sort of addiction to spending money, that would be a big concern. If I learned that it was because of divorce, the spouse bailed on her half of credit and/or the spouse was the over-spender, I would then observe their spending habits to see if they are being truthful and judge from there. If their spouse was the main cause for the debt, I don't think I would could hold that against the innocent party. Especially if in every other way they meet what I am looking for. Anna
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If their spouse was the main cause for the debt, I don't think I would could hold that against the innocent party. Especially if in every other way they meet what I am looking for. Anna, I agree, and I don't want to belabor this issue too much, because like I said, the main issue was not the bankruptcy but her withholding that information from me for months. I can deal with a bankruptcy, but not the dishonesty. AGG
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It wouldn't affect the credit of the new spouse in my state, either.
I am not sure I see why it is dishonest not to mention her debt to you unless you were getting serious enough to consider marriage in the near future. I have not shared the exact amount of my debt with my friends, or vice versa, though they almost all know I will be about 94 when the college loans are paid off. Many people think that financial info is very personal. It's not a crime to be 100K in debt.
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So it makes me wonder - did I become too focused on having someone be just like me, at the expense of learning to experience new things? I don't think we are looking for someone 'just like me', but someone we are compatible with, even if they are different (and they always are)... Exeriencing new things... If you cannot respect someone because of some huge/extreme differences, when you cannot comprehend 'that moral/lifestyle/habits' nor accept, nor you'd like to become like that, how can you and why would you have a wish to learn/experience from them/with them new things...? Is that possible at all? And should that be our desire at all? Did I learn to focus so much on finding the right partner for the future that I am not open to have fun in the present? This just depends on who you are... (Some people spend all their life living in and for Today...) Can you split yourself between 'now' and 'tomorrow'? To live just for today? And tomorrow for tomorrow but not today for tomorrow? To distinguish 'today I'm with x but tomorrow it has to be y'? I could do that... just for a short period of time... if longer, it'd be quite empty, to me... Also... Whoever we meet we will have some differences/incompabilities with. It doesn't matter number of items on our lists of 'dealbreakers', what matters is how far those incompabilities are, one mile or hundreds of miles... And how many miles we are willing and capable of walking to 'meet halfway', to accept, to compromise, and be pleased with... And we know that aging and already settled life(style) brings 'tiredness from walking so much'... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm not Belonging to Nowhere anymore! :-)
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I am not sure I see why it is dishonest not to mention her debt to you unless you were getting serious enough to consider marriage in the near future. I can agree with this. Some serious&personal things we discuss when we know more if R would last or become more than just a R... However, I have mortgage and total of $200-300 an all credit cards, also savings/investments about 1/3 of the mortgage, plus monthly putting money to an educational plan/fund for my son... and I could not be pleased with my partner not having similar situation, i.e. with some huge loans, in 'disproportion of his earnings', that is. Actually, talking about money, I think I could not (again) be with a man who earns less than me. If he earns just $1 more than me, I'd be fine. But not less. And money itself has nothing to do with it...
I'm not Belonging to Nowhere anymore! :-)
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I wouldn't have a problem with a man who earned less than I am earning - as long as he was working full-time.
There are many things that are worth going into debt for, including your children's education. Long after they are grown, they are not going to remember that you had no credit card debt- however my sister has never forgotten that my parents made her go to a two-bit college that offered her a full scholarship even though she had been accepted at Harvard.
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AGG,
What about the house being/looking a certain way is SO important to you?
I understand you like it clutter free, but WHO, if anyone are YOU trying to impress with having a bigger/better/newer whatever house? What was your house like growing up? Was it always in need of repairs and they were never made? Or was it always being worked on? Either one of those could be partly why your like that now.
When people come to visit are they coming to visit YOU or are they coming to spend time with your home? In other words, are they going to sit and talk to your freshly painted wall or impecciably clean garage or YOU?
Does your house even look LIVED in, if I came to visit and your kids were not home would I be able to tell you even HAD kids? Other than maybe seeing a couple of pictures hanging on a wall? Or could I tell just walking in the door, kids live here?
Last edited by ThornedRose; 09/21/06 08:31 AM.
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