Of course, I so agree. Or health problems, e.g.
I think the point was something else - a loan someone expects to 'share' with the partner when married vs. planning/being able/continue to pay your own loan from your own earnings...?


I agree
And I would have no dilemma to get a loan in this/similar case...

yes, a bankruptcy can effect your partners credit, especially if you are wanting to get a joint loan on something, they look at BOTH parties credit ratings.

But the honesty issue, and not being told could be a huge thing, especially IF the relationship is moving towards marriage.

But at the same time, NOT being open about your finances upfront, like when your on your fifth or sixth date or even two or three months into a dating relationship, it's not or shouldn't be an issue. UNless of course your engaged and making plans to marry and you know it could/would effect the other person if the relationship were to move to that point.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> What do you mean by "SO important to you"? I'm not looking to have a palace, I just like things more or less picked up.


I am not trying to impress anyone, I simply take pride in my home and in my home improvement craftsmanship skills. No different than someone enjoying working on their collector car, their needlepoint, or whatever makes them happy.


My home is totally lived in, kid games, school stuff, backpacks, art projects, and yes, pictures, everywhere you look. I am not striving for one of those magazine homes. I think you must have me confused with someone else. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

AGG

IMO, several months into an exclusive dating relationships, certain things are expected to have been brought out into the open. It's the whole "lies of omission" thing - at some point, saying "well, you never asked!" does not hold water anymore.

We may have to agree to disagree as to when that time comes. IMO, I expect to know within a few months if someone has skeletons in the closet like mental illness, bankruptcies, herpes, AIDS, etc. To me, honesty and openness is one of my top needs, so if I feel that my partner is not that way, it won't work for me.

But to each their owm, of course.

AGG

No lies and omission shouldn't hold water, but AGG you say "certain things are to be expected to be brought out?" By who's standards of when, how or why? There are two in a relationship, not just one. You can see by the responses on here, perhaps to some it is not a lie or an omission, their opinion of how much time should pass are all different and each person has their time when it's comfortable and the right time to talk about.



On here you can agree to disagree of course, but with the lady with the bankruptcy I have a couple of questions. Did you POJA this with her? Did you tell her after a few dates that you expected everything laid out on the table, what that everything is, and by what date you expected it and then compromise between your time line and hers?


Correct me if I am mistaken, you just said within a few months and yet wasn't it three months when you were dating the woman when she told you about the bankruptcy. If so, wasn't that in your timeline?

BTW, I had better know about STDS before we go out. YIKES.

I guess the big thing to me is, if you didn't tell her what you expect, then I think next GF, I would sit her down after a few dates and tell her.


Honesty and openness is very important to me too. However, with different levels of openness. My husband and fiance would have every door open to him but a guy I dated a few months might not. It is not about having skeletons either, it's about being some what of a private person. I have some ex husband skelton things I would of course share with him when I could trust him. I also have some things through my marriage that was very painful, easy to talk about on MB but very difficult for me to share with people I know I'll face daily. While the issues I am not about are not financial and it shouldn't at all, it's part of my history and eventually, when I felt comfortable, I would tell him, but if the guy in his mind, thinks I was not open or honest for not sharing things earlier with him but didn't express this to me, then I can't read his mind, he needs to let me know what his timelines is. However, if I don't have trust, I would have to tell him my time line is different. I shared with J some things early and some things not until about 6 months ago.

Later,

Anna

Perhaps I date differently than most people (hehe). After a few dates, I usually try to decide if I want to concentrate on this person, or move on. IOW, I am a "one at a time" dater. I know, I have caught flak for that here before, but it's OK, it is my way, it works for me. I don't do well with multiple dating.

So, it is different for me to be dating someone for a month or more than for someone who is just going out to have fun and see what happens. Sure, in the latter case, people can go out for months or years, and not feel like they need to tell the other person anything - heck, they are just having fun!

When I become exclusive with someone, then I do go through the usual "so, what do I need to know about you?" discussion. I think it only makes sense. I, for one, do not want to invest six months into a relationship only to find out that there is some condition or problem that would have saved us both six months of time.


Like I said, we were discussing things about each other that we agreed we need to know.


Er, well, why is that? How is this any different from other things that you just got done saying do not need to be disclosed for months?


I agree. I am not talking about mind reading, I am talking about withholding information which you know your partner has asked for and is expecting you to share.

This is clearly a topic where there is no right or wrong - obviously everyone's approach to dating and sharing is different. So as always, to each their own - for me, I need to feel like my partner will share things with me that I need her to share, because I do the same in return. Others do it differently, which is fine for them.

AGG

Isn't it interesting how each of us 'read'... i.e. I'd never think/conclude this part about AGG as TR has...
(To me he seems just normal (too normal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />))

i have read this thread but havent posted to it yet...

AGG...without sounding cliche....date however and do "whatever makes you happy"...

thats easier said than done....because unless i completly MISSREAD the jist of the posts...

you dont sound TOO happy bro....

ive multiple dated....also, have been in a LTR for about 1 1/2 years now....

im NOT contemplated marriage any time (year) soon...but im also NOT opposed to it later on down the road either...

now, the issues you had with your GF...they were deal breakers for you...

YES....some things WILL drive you nuts about peoples personalities or habits...good or bad...

no difference than someone who is lazy with house work or lazy with finances...just as the extreme of being a hard core anal person when it comes to those things....

BOTH extremes can create problems....

but i ask this.....which trait can be un-learned in time????

can a sloppy person learn better house keeping skills and be taught fiscal responsibilty????

or can an type A, retentive super clean/overly "tight" fiscal person learn to "relax"????

i dunno the answer......

we all have our "standards" of acceptable behavior and relationships are trade offs....

i hate to admit this........

i sometimes watch dr. phil (ouch...i said it!!).....and he has a quote that i like....

"do you want to be RIGHT, or do you want to be in a relationship"

dont know if you can have both my friend.....

i just think you were HAPPIER with GF, than you are now....even if you were justified in breaking up for your "deal-breakers"....

just relax...have fun...and dont take life so serious...

L8R Bro!!

The same 'opinion' as TR??

I'm getting curious here.

I could not accept 'one metre' of the clutter Everywhere&Everytime in the house, yet it does NOT mean (and I'm not) a "super clean/overly "tight" fiscal person" at all. Nor that my home looks like nobody "LIVED in"...
Am just normal.

I think it's luck of time/patience to read all and not just 'selectively'... (when we 'recognize'/project some of our issues and kind of 'defensing' them...?)

Or I'm not right here at all, AGG?

I would think most people in general would be happier in a relationship that for the most part, fits.
However, if there are issues in the relationship that are deal-breakers, and we continue to stay in it, wouldn't that be settling? In the end, what is the point? If one knows it won't work, why continue?

No doubt, AGG, or anyone else that breaks off something isn't feeling too happy. But it's the process. The process that he/we need to go thru to hopefully find the happiness that is out there.

Karona

AGG, if you shared those things with her and told her it's important to know if she has any bankruptcys then she should have told you. I was just guessing that perhaps you assumed she should know. I was wrrr---ooo-- you know, again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Anna

Do we have to pick either?

Not sure why, but for some reason, this statement reminded me of something a man once said. He said, "Well, you know my wife could divorce me and then get someone who beats her or someone worse than me. She could do much worse. I guess it's because it seems as if you are saying, "Which one is worse? Pick the better one."

I think I'll just stick to someone who has already learned too extreme is not good either way. Then I won't have to try to change them to make them a better person, and I won't have to think I settled for the lesser of the two evils. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

AGG,

I am an INTJ and I see many similairities in our thought processes. Somewhere I read that the fictional character of Hannibal Lector was an INTJ - maybe I have no business giving advice to anyone. What you politely call "rigid", I refer to as anal retentive. Don't you sometimes think that as introverts we tend to be introspective to the point of ANALysis paralysis? We think and analyze and never really come up with the answers, we just expend a lot of energy.

You tried something and it didn't work. You've figured out your differences and what you find tolerable. That is the important part. Knowing the whys doesn't really matter a whole lot, don't you think?

We all have our limits and I think it boils down to how hard we want to work at it. I don't mind hard work but I don't want to have to contort myself into the shape of a pretzel for the sake of a relationship. Some bending is good but not to the point of breaking. When it gets to the extent of losing your own identity, it starts to become unhealthy.

Ya know, I am actually waaay happier today than I was a few weeks ago. Of course I wasn't happy about breaking her heart, and to some extent I wasn't happy thinking about the whole dating thing again. But overall, I am happier now that I am out of that relationship.


Yeah, I know that quote, but I think it's used a bit differently, as in "don't try to win an argument with your partner, 'cause the relationship will suffer, and in the end you will lose". That is why Harley is so big on POJA - because unless arguments are settled as win-win, both people will lose in the end.

But I don't think this quote implies that you cannot have a good relationship, that you have to choose either "good" or "relationship". I think with the right partner, you can have things the way you want them, and still be happy with your partner. The biggest fear I have is settling - settling for someone who is not right for me but is as good as I am able to find - that is not good enough for me.


That's exactly what I am doing these days, bud! BTW, you know we are both So Cal MBers, right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

You are right, as usual. I don't know why TR perceived that me not wanting to live in clutter meant that I wanted a spotless house.

Not wanting an extreme does not imply that the person wants the opposite extreme - I just want "average".

The fact that G was a bit too inactive for me does not mean I want a marathoner wife, or that her lack of cooking and organizing meant I wanted a Martha Stewart, etc. I just didn't like her extreme differences from me, that's all.

AGG

Exactly. It should not be one extreme or the other, just no extreme period.

AGG

I'm sorry that was your impression of the questions I asked..

I was looking at the overall question you asked in your topic.. What's important in life? and just basically asking you questions to get you thinking about what her actions of not being as clutter-free as you like, bothers you so much.

You answered, "I like to take care of my home" or something to that effect.

So it could come down to the fact, you didn't feel she had as much respect for her home, or even your home if she wasn't as clutter free as you like. And that's not a bad thing to learn about a person while you are dating.

It tells me, you want someone who has respect and appreciation for the things you would be willing to provide for them IF you were to eventually marry. Taking care of those things/or not also show how much respect they will show YOU later in the overall relationship, which is a big thing.

And not someone who had total disregard and lack of appreciation for the love you feel for them, which motivated you to provide those gifts to begin.

I'm trying to get to the deeper issues here, so that in the future if/when something like this comes up, you already know WHY it bothers you so much. And not continually struggling to figure out why you have such a problem with it.

TR,

Sorry that I misunderstood your earlier post.

OK, I did do a lot of thinking about why clutter bothers me, but I think that thinking about it is a step in the wrong direction. As other posters said (and I agree), I already tend to overanalyze everything.

So I can sit here and try to analyze WHY things about G bothered me - clutter, sleep patterns, 2 hours getting ready time, low energy, dependence on parents for money, etc etc - but does it matter?

In the end, what matters it that these things bothered me, and while it may be a curiosity as to why that is (FOO, etc), the fact is that it is unlikely that I'll change all that much and start being able to accept those things all of a sudden.

I do want to emphasize that in the areas that bothered me about G, it was not like I was a maniac in any of those - I do not need my partner to get up at 7, be ready in 10 minutes, cook a gourmet meal, be a Martha Stewart, go for a 5 mile run every morning - none of those extremes. I just wanted someone closer to "average" - and before we get tangled up in "one man's average is another's extreme", I am simply talking about stuff that if you describe it to 5 random people, none of them would say "she does WHAT??"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Not a problem, apparently others assumed the same thing.


I guess see it differently, I don't see it as over analyzing, I see it as trying to figure out what YOU want in a marriage partner.

It is going through this process of looking at these things, and yes, even in trying to figure out WHY something bothers you and whether or not it bothers you because of your childhood and the way your parents were with you, and you just picked it up, or if it's because of things that remind you of a past relationship that just got to you over time and began to annoy you in that person, because of other problem areas, or even if it's really just your personal preference that you just can't get past.

So yes, it does matter why they bothered you, because with the answers, you find out more about yourself and can see what can work past if you try, and what you can't no matter what, and you also find out more about what you want in a marriage partner.

And it's not even that you can change things all of a sudden, but it's being able to acknowledge you could change them at all if you wanted to do the work required to make those changes within yourself, and at the same time accepting I don't want to change these things about me, even IF I could.

And living with that choice, even if it means remaining alone the rest of your life.

but whats most important though is that through this process you are finding out more about what you want and don't want in a marriage, and you will be able to spot those things early on in the next relationship.