Hi all- what a club, huh. Anyways, here's my problem that y'all are the experts I need to turn to.

You probably know from other posts/threads that I had an EA with a man over the internet/phone. Never met him, but we did have "phone sex." BH knows about this.

I was found out about 2 weeks in, asked by BH to have no contact, agreed but didn't, then was caught about a month later. NC since then (March 28, 2006).

So here's the problem. My BH is NOTHING like the BH's here. He now says I'm not worth it, that he "probably still loves me somewhere but isn't sure if he can ever find it again." Calls names, but that is decreasing. There is no hope of him going to counseling, though he's agreed to read a book that I ordered (but as you will see, what he says changes moment by moment).

He says he has no intention of divorcing me, but isn't saying for sure, he thinks we should stay married for the baby.

SOmetimes sex is important, sometimes it's not, but always I have to initiate it. And if I don't, I get what he calls "F2F," failure to F***.

He gives lip service to the fact that he had some things that he needed to work on in our marriage, but has NO intention of working on them until and if he can "heal."

Saturday he said I needed to stop the R talk because it stopped him from healing. Last night he said that he's not sure he can heal. He says it changes moment by moment, and for a few moments on Saturday he thought he could heal, now he doesnt' think he can, but ask him later and maybe he would think he could- but he doesnt' want me asking....see what I'm up against?

So the question is- well, what do I do? Pep told me in one of my first posts that we do whatever we do without knowing what the outcome is going to be, and I know that, but it seems like I'm fighting an uphill battle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

We say prayers, he says ILY (but says it's "rote.") We do things together- but I talk too much about the R, and start hammering him (this is me admitting it ). He says it will take him 5-6 years (as long as we've been married) to decide if he wants to stay married, since it took that long to discover that I was a w***e. He says I'll be on probation for the rest of our marriage, which is really no big deal since I'll NEVER do this again.

Through all of it, I don't even want OM- though I get that thrown in my face when BH is tired of talking to you. "Why dont' you go talk to OM?" I just want a viable, happy marriage. I'm not sure it's possible- how long do I go? What advice do you girls who are in my position have for me?

We have earned our F's, I think, and thank you for all your help!!!

Mrs R

I'm not a FWW but I would lik eto offer a comment if I may.

My BH is NOTHING like the BH's here.

He sounds EXACTLY like the BHs here including me from time to time. This is a rollercoaster.

What he DOES not what he SAYS whould be most important to you. He is still in a marriage with you, saying ILY etc. Its a place to start building.

Wor at making him feel safe and meet his ENs. Even if it seems you're having no effect I believe you will be having an effect.

All blessings.

MrsRob - like so many other FWS's, who have made the decision to end the affair and attempt to recover their marriage, the NATURAL desire is for the BS to "just get over it" and get on with a recovered marriage.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. There is little way to adequately describe the feelings of a BS, but it's often been likened to a "nuclear bomb." EVERYTHING that a BS believed in and thought was "true" is called into question. The "rebuilding" from such devastation happens in stages, over a lot of time. The "average" is 2 years. In my case it was 4 years.

Your husband probably reacts negatively to "relationship" talks now because he's still in the "if relationship was so important to you, there never would have been an affair." He probably sees it as "manipulative," even when that is not your intention.

Please commit yourself to endurance when necessary and to patience in bucketloads and give him the time to work through all the issues in his head. My guess is that right now he has not even forgiven you, or if he has, he really doesn't understand the promises HE makes when he forgives someone.

God bless.

MM- I'm of course seeing your posts over at HS's (I don't drink, but I think you had a wine cooler??? lol).

Anyway, how are you and your BH? How is withdrawl? Did you get past OM's b-day?????? Please update, I'm thinking about you.

Bob. THank you thank you thank you for pointing out that this is normal. You're right, he's still here. I know it, but it is so so hard.

Foreverhers- yes, you're right. I kind of feel like, "Okay, I see how badly I messed up, I've repented, I want to make this work, I love you, please forgive me and work on making our marriage what it really should be." And all this in the space of 3 days, maybe?? lol. I know it's not realistic, I had just hoped for more progress forward in 6 months.....

Faith and hope and love and patience. Obviously I have things to learn here too. Guess I need to concentrate on the mote in my own eye before pointing to other's!!

MrsRob,
Betrayal is hard for us BS to work through... if I hadn't gone to an IC and learned that forgiveness is possible... that the haunting images are manageable... I would have long been out of my marriage by now. Your BH NEEDS individual counseling... because what he has experienced here is something he was never, NEVER prepared for mentally or emotionally. If you think he might be willing, I am willing to correspond with your husband - as a friend who's been there (where he is)... If he is willing/able/wants_to, please give him my email and let him know that I invite him to write.
Best Wishes,
Jay

Jay, that is so wonderful of you- but I don't think he'd be willing. In fact, I think he'd be FURIOUS if he knew I was posting here about our situation. In my case, I did all the exposing- and he made me stop talking to a good friend of mine (luckily I explained it and she's a good enough friend that she understands). I didn't tell him I told my mom everything, lol- though he knows I told her some things. He didn't want everyone to know he'd been cuckolded. Yes, we live in the middle ages (he actually used the word cuckolded, lol).

Absolutely against counseling. The best I've gotten is that he'll read this book I ordered. I have high hopes for it, lol. It is written based on our religion, and from the reviews I read it's all about how to forgive and save your marriage, so I think it may at least start things in the right direction.

I wish he'd get advice from MB's, but that's not in the picture yet.

I could just kick myself for putting him in this position- he tells me over and over that I have no idea what he feels. I tell him he is right, but I will do anything I can

Tell your BH that you'll do "whatever to takes for as long as it takes" to show him that you are committed to him, regret what you've done, and will never be the cause of his pain ever again...

THIS IS WHAT THE BHs of the world want to hear and SEE FROM OUR WWs.

He still needs to learn to forgive... maybe a pastor or other person can help him to do this...

ONE LESSON I LEARNED IN COUNSELING (for learning how to forgive) went something like this:

"Counselor, I don't think I can ever forgive my WW for what she has done to me"

Counselor: "Many people believe that, but most of us are surprisingly capable of forgiving beyond our perceived capacities"

ME: "But how do I ever forgive something like this?"

Counselor: "How have you forgiven others in your past? Certainly a relative or loved one has done something that required your forgiveness? What did you do then to learn to forgive them?"

Me: blah blah blah

the point is that this type of dialogue helped me realize that I have forgiven many people in my lives (parents, friends, ex-lovers, etc...) and there were some commonalities to HOW I FORGAVE these people. Once I realized this, I began the process of forgiving my Wife.. Other BH may be able to reiterate some of this (or tell you that I'm off my rocker!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

MrsRob,

Obviously I am not a FWW, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, but I am also not a BS, or a WH. I have been here many years and I see in your posts the threads of destruction of your marriage, if you are not careful.

First, at 6 months it is very common for the BS to be very angry. Second, recovery means that it is something HE has to go through, but HE does not know the time line. Right now it may seem to him like it will take 6 years. Usually, it takes 1-2 years, IF the WS is willing to recover as well. He cannot know his own time line, but he knows it will take some time.

So you are seeing his inability to tell the future, you are seeing his anger at the normal 6 month mark. Neither are predictors of the future.

Now to what my mess up your recovery. It is what you are doing now. First, there is a deep element of disrespectful judgement. Want an example?
As a point of information, the word cuckold, is still used and it has very very negative connotations. What you don't seem to understand and YOU SHOULD DARNED WELL UNDERSTAND that he chose that word for a reason. It expresses how he feels about himself...ashamed. It is actually very normal and the word cuckold is very often used by men to describe other men. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> He uses that word to describe himself and your response is that he is in the middle ages. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You also say that you initiate relationship talks. Most men are very uncomfortable with these sort of talks, especially if they feel they are being attacked or disrespected. I would bet that he feels this way, especially given that you did not pick up on his use of the word cuckold.

He is very likely against counseling because he will have to face something he is ashamed of (your affair) and he will have to endure him getting blamed for his failures as a husband...the reason you felt the need to have an affair. Leave the book out and around when you get it. My bet is he will read it, but don't bug him about it.

You close with But, you have not taken the time to understand what he has been saying, and why he says it. Don't you think it is time? You are focussing on the bluff and angst, but not what he feels or says, and more importantly why he is saying it.

Please think about this a bit. It is great that you want to make this marriage work. It is even better that you are here and willing to work on it. But, please read about the concepts of Disrespectful Judgements, and realize that your H has his reasons for saying what he does. Some of it is to protect himself. Some of it is to not seem so weak. Some of it is conceal how he feels about himself. But, mostly it is to avoid showing you how vulnerable he is to you and how much power you have over him.

You need to think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

MrsRob,
JL is a very wise man.
HS

And I thought I was the only one who called myself "Cuckolded"!

There was an anonymous individual (I still don't know his/her identity) that tipped me and OM wife off about the affair and I created a mail account for him/her to contact me: [email]cuckoldfool@yahoo.com.[/email]

JustLearning is absolutely correct. It is a purposely chosen word and helps explain why your husband stopped your exposure.

He feels a fool, less than a full man, emasculated that his wife would choose to have sex (yes, even phone sex) with another man.

I felt/feel the same way. There are three men in the world that my wife chose over me -- rejecting me and what I had to go after them despite the fact they were/are married. I am a cuckold husband.

It really is a look into how he sees himself to some extent (at least if his experience is like mine). My confidence in my masculinity really did a nose dive. I have had to work on this very hard, and it's an uphill climb with every image and memory of what happened like a stone on my back.

Your husband is possibly in the same situation. He thinks everyone who knows is secretly pointing at him behind his back and either feeling sorry for him or laughing at him. Frankly, I don't know which one is worse.

Be patient with him. It takes a long time and a lot of effort on his part to overcome this.

Blessings

JL, point well taken.

I guess I didn't take into consideration all the implications of the word.

My biggest LB is DJ's, that is for sure. I have the Lovebusters book, and have read it, but need a review. My mouth takes off....and leaves my brain far behind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I will try to listen and not talk over him. I will also not initiate R talks.It seems I can twist any conversation into it, him- "Hey, how about pizza for dinner." Me, "sure, fine, are you going to divorce me????" This is only a slight exaggeration..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

If I stopped doing that it would truly be a change he could see....

It is, of course, the hardest thing for me to do....

Hi ya, Mrs. Rob! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, you caught me over at HS's having an adult beverage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My BH is doing well. And I'm doing better. I survived OM's BD w/o breaking my NC. And I've been getting alot of help from LovingAnyway.

Thankyou so much for asking.

You've gottan great advice here from BHs. I know how much you want your marriage to heal and become better than it ever was. The fact that you keep asking for help shows how much you desire this. I'm praying for you.

I know you can stop those LB's!

I had to laugh @ your "how's the pizza" dialogue...I understand your problem very well.

I guess we all have to learn to let go of stuff and accept the fact that we don't know what tomorrow will bring. Just try to do the best we can today, and try to do better tomorrow.

Hang in there.

(((((((Mrs. Rob))))))))

~ Marsh

I agree with what Heart said.

Whatever it takes for as long as it takes.

Not only in words but in deeds and actions.

I too have called my FWW names, I too have told her ILY...., I too have made almost every comment your H has made.

In an M or in recovery you are either moving forward or backwards. Somtimes standing still can be either of the two but you should always look to move forward.

At the end of all of this you should strive for one goal and that is doing whatever it takes to save your M.

If at the end it ends in a D you can at least say you gave it 100% and it didn't work. Or you can give it 100% and it works and you have a better M because of it.

There is always the possiblity that the BS just can't/won't forgive. If that is your mindset you will do less it will become a self fullfilling prophecy.

Do all you can every day and see how it works.

My FWW has missed many opportunities to better our M and that might be our downfall.

At the end I will be able to hold my head up high. I have tried. I am here learning and using what I learn. If you do the same you have become a different person, hopefully a better person. Then even though you had an A you will be able to hold your head up high.

Mrs. Rob,

Consider a quote by the Hall of Fame coach John Madden.
What I mean is that your attempts to have relationship talks are a bit premature in some ways. Permit to explain my thinking. You want your discussions with him to have an impact right? You want them to improve your marriage, both from his perspective and yours, right? You need him to understand what you are saying right?

Well, to do that you need more information. Some of it you have gotten but did not recognize. His use of the term Cuckold to describe himself, offers you a load of information.

1. He feels he is in an inferior position.
2. He feels shamed by the affair (yes I know you had the affair not him).
3. He feels bad about remaining in this marriage, although he knows he wants to.
4. He feels you have no clue about what he feels, hence he is spelling it out for you via is choice of descriptions of himself.

Let's stop here for a moment. Let's consider #1.

Why would he feel as if he is an inferior position? This is something you really really need to understand. We (you, me, and others) need to discuss this. I think he feels inferior because his self-esteem is crushed. I think he feels inferior because he feels he has no alternative but to remain in this marriage. My guess he loves you deeply, and to remain means you have gotten away with the affair, and he can do nothing about it. How is that for a start? What do you think?

Now let's move to #2. Many BS's have come here and felt shamed by their spouses affair. For men it is usually taken as they failed at their job as a man, both in bed and out. Women tend to feel this way more about the emotional part of an affair if their spouse "falls in love" with OM. My point is that for men it is a double thing because a wive straying is often taken as a failure by the H as a lover (read man). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> That is why he does not want to talk about it, he doesn't want counseling, and he does not want others to know. You have said your Mom knows it all. My guess is that if he finds out he will assume and he would be correct more often than not that your Mom sided with you. He thinks your Mom would view him as the "bad guy that treated her daughter poorly and MADE her make this bad choice."

He does not see anyone knowing as a win for him.

Ok, #3 is not a big reach. ANY REAL man would have sent you on your way for cheating, right? He knows this and yet he did not. I would bet this is leading to a lot of internal conflict on his part and is one of the reasons for his anger. He did not because his love for you is stronger than his desire to throw you out, and in his eyes this is a weakness.

Now #4 you really really need to consider. I know most men are considered clueless and helpless when it comes to be aware of people around them. In my opinion nothing could be further from the truth. Men are very very observant, and see many things woman never notice. For example, men rarely run into anyone. Women seem to do it alot, or they sure run into me alot, and a BIG man. That is because women don't pay attention to their surroundings. Most men have learned that it is very very dangerous to be unaware of their surroundings. Further, society teachs men to be very observent of their wives. We are the ones that are encouraged to by flowers, diamonds, whatever so that our spouses will "feel" better. We learn at an early age to tell when PMS or "that time of the month" is coming on. We KNOW when our spouese are mad at us. IN short we pay far more attention than most women think, we just don't show it.

Women on the other hand are told from an early age that men "only want one thing", that men don't have feelings, that men can be manipulated and changed if the woman want to change us. That we are "simple" as compared to the "complexity" of women.

Now why am I bring this up. IF you have fallen for the usual line about men, and specifically your H, and IF you don't realize that he is far more sensitive to you and what you do/don't do or say/don't say. Then you have little chance to rebuild this marriage. Men tend to hide their feelings, but they have them. They hide there awareness, but they are. He has essentially told you that you don't understand what he is going through, and your responses suggest he is right. I should say that men hide their feelings because as much as the press made a bid deal out of how women want "sensitive" men, the reality is and it is often seen on this site that women don't want "sensitive" men because it means the men start to approach "high maintance" levels and that is a lot of work.

You need to understand that your H does have feelings, and he does not feel save to tell you much about them other than to say he is a "cuckold".

So where is all of this going? It seems to me, that rather than have relationship talks you need to address the issues your H has. Are they the ones I have listed? Perhaps, perhaps not, you need to find out. YOu do this by asking him questions and then just sitting there until he answers even if it takes 20 minutes for him to form the answer. When he does answer, don't go into defensive mode, but listen because he will be giving you clues.

You could ask him some night. "Honey, I know you have said I don't understand your feelings, could you explain to me what you felt when you found out?" This is a direct question, he does not have to guess at what you are asking him. You have also stated why you want to know. Listen to him, don't discuss it, just listen and affirm what you heard. You don't have to agree with it, they are HIS feelings.

Most betrayed spouses claim that when an affair occurs, "something is lost" from the marriage and usually forever. That does not mean the marriage won't work, but something is lost. Have you figured out what your H lost? Have you ask him? If he wants to know why you are asking, I would think the answer would be that you want to help him find what was lost, or replace it with something of high value.

I am not recommending these conversations every night. I am recommending that your conversations with him be about acquiring information from him, so that you can help him heal. So that you and he are on the same wavelength. As he gets used to these subjects, and he finds you are not jumping him for is opinions, but rather taking them into consideration, he will feel safe.

MrsRob, if there is anything a BS wants it is to feel safe with their spouse.

There is much more to say, but I wanted to offer you some ideas to replace the DJ's you say you are using. As you learn more about your H, you will be able to develop a plan that will allow you both to rebuild this marriage, and as he becomes comfortable with you not trying to "fix" him, or have him "get over it", my guess is he will start to really work on the marriage with you. You two just need to develop some new common experiences and thoughts.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

So Bob, I take it from that that you told Squid she had to be your f***pig for as long as it suited you.

That's what MrsR's H told her.

Jen

I don't see that in this thread. Based on what I read I commented.

I may have held my LBs inside better than MrsRobs H, but I have certainly THOUGHT unpleasant entitled thoughts since d-day. If he said that, it's unacceptable of course.

Yes, sorry Bob, I guessed you hadn't read MrsR's other thread.

Mrs Rob,

Allowing him to call you names without you leaving the room quietly adds to his shame. He knows that his behavior now is unacceptable to his value system.

I have some things I could recommend, based on your faith - but I'd rather not list them here on the board, as they are very specific to the Church - if you'd like, get in touch with me - you have my e-mail.

Thanks, b0b . . . "Unpleasant Entitlement Thoughts" -- now I know what to call them.

I have had them . . . kept them inside . . . felt shamed at having them . . . can't stop having them.

And this post is another example of why I contemplate sitting my wife down in front of a computer and having her read this stuff.

Thank you, JL, for putting this in words.

It is so accurate it's a little embarassing to realize how much it applies to me.

Trouble is, to tell my wife that I have these feelings makes me even more shamed and inadequate.

MrsRob -- be patient with your husband. He's in a delicate place right now. There are things he wants to say, but can't or doesn't know how.

Know that he is there and staying there . . . that may be all you get for a time.

Blessings