Summary: 4 months post dday. I'm the BW. WH had A for one year with coworker/mutual friend. I made the major mistake in the early aftermath of believing WH and the OW could and should remain friends (what was I thinking?!) and that it would be cruel of me to take something he needed so desperately away from him (because I obviously failed him so miserably) I came to my senses and demanded no contact. He's been 'trying' but still finds ways to justify contacting her for 'work purposes'. He is now being put on medical leave for depression (and because the NC isn't really NC...he works at a Christian institution who has been monitoring he and OW to hold them accountable). Anti-depression meds were increased on Monday. We're both in IC and MC. Two kids, ages 4 and 1.


Advice: how on earth do I 'talk' with WH who is so clearly in the fog? He sees only what he wants to see and his memory seems to become more and more selective. I have been unwittingly carrying out Plan A the past few weeks, and what I see happening is quite unnerving to me. I feel like WH is doing everything he can to cause me to fail. This usually happens right after I've made a stand. It's as though he's pushing on my boundaries to make me break and give in, or if I don't give in, then it's indicative of how I've turned selfish and controlling and I'm refusing to meet his needs. Case is point: last week he 'informed' me that OW was going to take my daughter to her music class. Of course I said, no way, and he lost it. He called me cruel, told me I couldn't be trusted, accused me of calling all our friends and family and gossiping about everything that goes on in our MC (he now doesn't want me to talk to anybody.) He later apologized for being so hurtful, then became accusatory when I didn't reciprocate the apology (I merely thanked him for his apology...I hate to admit it, but I even see the apology as a means of manipulation.)

So...be it conscious or unconscious, I feel like he's shooting for one of three things: keep me submissive, break me to the point where I'll leave him (and then the breakup of our marriage can be my fault), or make sure he gives me enough opportunities to look selfish and unfeeling so that when he leaves it will be due to my inability to meet his needs. I'm confused as to what to do. Do I 'call him' on these things or do I operate with the understanding that he's so deep in the fog that he can't see what he's doing...and along those lines, would he even hear me if I expressed these thoughts to him? He truly believes he's been horribly wronged by me.

*Sigh* I'm so tired and angry today...I'm losing the fight and losing all respect for my WH. Please, somebody, advise me. I don't have IC this week and there's no one I can talk to without repurcussions...should I call our MC and express these thoughts privately to him? I know if I do, then we'll have to discuss it at our next session. (Note-I had originally given his ambivalence until the end of October. If he's still in the same state, I will ask him to leave.)

Maienne --

Welcome. While I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation, this is a good place to vent, seek help and advice and make a stand for the future of your marriage.

If your husband is still in contact with the OW, regardless of your previous opinions or agreement, it must end.

I'm not the most qualified or experienced to tell you how or what to expect, but I do know it must end. If it's a coworker, it may require job changes.

You cited "last week" as when he wanted the OW to take you daughter to music class. That's pretty recent contact. He is still in withdrawal and will fight to get a fix of the OW in any way he can. You must be strong for both of you since he'll be in the throws of the withdrawal.

Plan A is your best bet. It doesn't mean being a doormat for him to walk all over and wipe his feet on -- that's a tough balance and you'll find advice here and in Dr. Harley's articles to help you achieve that balance.

You are donig the right thing in preventing the OW from having access to your kids. One of the worst memories I have of my wife's first affair was a statement by one of my daughters as we ate in a restaurant I hadn't been to before: "We were here with mommy and Mr. xxxx". I couldn't have felt worse if someone had stuck a knife in my heart. Keep her away from your children.

Do you have a support network (a girlfriend or relative) that you can talk with or watch your kids while you take some time for you? He may accuse you of gossiping about him and what he's done, but you need a place and person to confide in, cry with and support you.

Blessings

maienne...

first off totally remove yourself from plan A...
meaning do and function with him and around him without expectations of any and I do mean ANY type of positive response....

do things for him that remove yourself from the direct line of fire

for example...
while he's home cook him things he likes...
stop and bring him a special dessert he likes...
bring him a cup of coffee...

BUT
BUT
BUT
expect NOTHING in return
no thank you
no that's nice

react to nothing he throws are you...
leave the "gift' walk away...
and pray to God for strength as you offer your gift as a sacrifice...truly giving and doing with NO thoughts of what it gets you..

seek peace in the giving...

NO RELATIONSHIP TALKS....
NO RELATIONSHIP TALKS..

NO POINT...

lighten the atmoshpere in the home..

music on in the background....
fun with the kids....
warm safe environment...
smile at him
laugh with him
look him in the eyes and seek compassion and love from your look..
these things offer the hope a WS needs that these obstacles can be overcome

always inviting and drawing him to join in BUT continueing on and without him......

no point in beating dead horses....

Husband I was so confused and so hurt by finding out about your affair...that I foolishly in wanting everyones pain to stop believed that she had a place in our family...

but I was very very wrong and I am sorry that I was wrong...

PERIOD

you also may want to consider taking some time out and away from the home...
you may also want to do so without revealing too much of where you are going....
and what you are doing..

let him wonder and stew a bit....

It is my opinion that this is NOT marriage builders advice..
it is mine....

BUT
the reason why I promote realizing it smacks of some game playing is that in my opinion...one of the greatest travesties about the affairs is the LACK of knowledge that the BS is in ..

WS obviously knows what is going on
OP obviously knows what is going on..

BS total darkness...

it is my opinion that while in plan A they get a little TASTE of lack of knowledge...

and you do this by going and doing something...and not revealing that much about it...

if you do it during the day..let them stew that you are off somewhere meeting with a lawyer....but never confirm...

if you do it at night...let them taste that you to exist outside of being home pining whining and crying over their actions...

this is NOT promoting anything against vows...
or seeking out another person..

this is flexing some independence that says...

you don't own me

if he makes you look selfish over not allowing the OP in your world too bad...

look maienne...

you have a lot of strength and power....

your marriage may not survive this..
but YOU sure as he** will...

If your husband decides that the hill to die on is his need to be 'friends' with the OP...
then you have your answer...

because you will know that YOU will never ever tolerate a third party in your marriage...

and you allow him to choose...knowing IF he chooses that over marriage...

you are better off without than with that type of illogical thinking...

be strong
be full of hope for him and you...

feel free to say things like...

I am worried you aren't sleeping well...are you sleeping well...
you should rest...

WS don't expect concern..

they expect anger and emotion and drama...and all of those things feed in to they were right to have the affair...because their spouse is such a mess..OR they have done so much damage things can't be fixed.....

give them what they don't expect....

quit focusing on the stupid wheel spinning stuff he says now..

don't react

don't go off on side roads that deflect from the reality of his affair....

say things like...
I realize that during your affair it caused you to become very very used to speaking lies...
I think it would be exhausting to be spending so much time having to lie all the time...

I am glad that you are strong enough to be wanting to be a man again of truth...

that is a good thing for you....

if you are going to go to plan B at the end of October..then know that you can do a FANTASTIC plan A for FIVE weeks...

ARK

Could it be he wants us to fail? Is he maybe hoping to assuage his own guilt and avoid condemnation from family and friends by 'appearing' to work on his marriage? Then when things magically don't work out, he can then say the marriage ended because it was faulty and not because of the A. Then of course he'd be free to openly pursue his true love.

The mind of a WS is a dark and troubled place. He in all likelihood is entertaining all sorts of warped ideas.

Don't waste your time trying to figure out what he's thinking...b/c in 5 mins. he'll be thinking the complete opposite thing.

Ark gave you some EXCELLENT advice. Take it.

Print his/her post out and study the he** out of it.

Blessings.

~ Marsh

quit focusing on him and his warped rationalization thinking....

human beings are made to survive....
when we screw up big up time...our brainsvseek the most natural route ....to defend, blame shift and deny...

he has caused you and the family great great pain....
and his survival is in overdrive to diminish HIS role in it....

it has nothing to do with true love...his love with the OP was never based on truth...it doesn't exist...it was all based on a false foundation......

he is doing the most typical thing that WS do...
minimize the reality of his actions...
blame shift

he needs to process his actions
he needs to ruminate in the consequences
he needs to sit and look in the mirror and see who he really was in the affair....

that takes time....

will he come out of it...

most do
if not you wouldn't want him anyways in the end....

maienne..
what are your specific busters in plan a...and how we help you tackle them..

what is a typical day like in your home;
any happiness
any down time
and relaxation

or pins and needles
over analyzing
etc...

what is your biggest hurdle today...
no tomorrow not yesterday
today
ark

Your husband needs to change jobs. While he is on medical leave, he needs to be doing some serious job searching.

I am sad that a Christian Institution is not doing more to help you break this up.

Monitoring contact does not seem to be working in that respect.

I do believe it is time for a major change in jobs- maybe even locations. Sometimes the best thing to do is move somewhere else.

I am really sorry you are in this situation.

Thank you all so much for talking me down off the ledge.

Ark, in answer to your question, life is actually quite good as long as we don't discuss our relationship (I've insisted we save that for MC right now, but WH manages to draw me in about once a week. I've spoken with my IC about how to handle that and feel good about his advice.)

I have 'moved on' with life. The kids and I go about our business during the day and I've taken steps towards getting myself out in the evenings. At home, I've given WH a lot of space. Now that he's not seeing OW, he's home every evening, and is even coming home from work early in the afternoons. He mostly reads in our room or plays video games. He helps with the kids when he's asked, but pretty much avoids going on outings with us. I don't let that keep us at home...we go out anyway. After the kids are in bed, we will usually settle on the couch with a snack and watch a little TV, then we'll go to bed and read for a bit.

I already do a lot of the things you suggested in terms of offering the 'little' gifts without strings. Our home right now is fairly stress-free and pleasant (as stress-free as it can be with two kids).

I guess I'm having a hard time with this right now because I'm so darn angry at all the blame shifting etc. I just got off the phone with our MC and I feel much more in control of myself right now.

Here's a specific question: how do I handle it when he tells me he just doesn't trust me? (no real reason for the lack of trust...based on rewritten marital history.) I know there are a dozen other specific questions, but my little one is out of sight and I have to run.

Thank you so much.

Waywards will use any ploy to help themselves justify their affairs.

Waywards will push any and every button of yours to make you the "out of control", raging, angry person responsible for "making" them find "love" outside the marriage.

Waywards will displace all of their frustration, guilt and confusion onto their betrayed spouse.

Waywards will sell their soul to the devil to remain in contact with their affair partner.

What to do? Emotionally disattach. Dismiss every attack or outburst as if it were unimportant to you in any way. La ti da!

When this is comfortable for you, then learn to turn the wayward's words around and shovel them right back at them....casually, off-handedly, with no barbs or attitude.....just facts.

"Ok...you want me to allow the woman who is helping destroy our marriage drive OUR daughter to her class?" "I don't think so!"

Remember, no attitude, just return his words to him, in a way that makes YOUR boundary clear to him, but not in such a way as to start a fight. Stay calm and disattached.

It takes two to fight. Just disengage, and treat him like he is mentally ill, and his antognistic behavior should just be accepted as "normal", for the time being. This will leave a WS dazed and confused, and possibly is a time where the have just a moment of honest self-examination.

Easy? Nope

Possible? Yep

Try plugging this in with arks advice, and you'll see some slow, steady progress.

Best wishes,
SD

WH is home on medical leave through December and is looking for a new job. We're living in the same house, but he spends his time on the computer or reading. I continue to invite him to be part of family activities, but he declines and says he just needs space.

On Monday's MC session, we talked about how he needed to start 'showing up'. He did. He talked to me and I felt like I saw real hints of remorse starting to peek through. Then he called OW.

That call completely shattered any last bit of trust I had left. Combine that with his increased depression, an increase in drinking (on two separate occasions he's polished off an entire bottle of wine by himself) and the distance, and I just don't want to let him in anymore.

My IC urged me once again to ask him to leave. He says I'm experiencing emotional abuse and I need to stop it so I can start healing, and then maybe the marriage has a chance. My MC on the other hand urges me to stay the course as long as I can to give WH a chance to 'choose back in'. Sadly, both bits of advice represent the two voices within me. I don't know what to do. I do want to rebuild our marriage, but living with him right now is...awful.

And now WH is telling me that he has chosen back in, but I know in my heart this isn't true. Awful. Awful. Awful.

What kind of accountability does he have for his phone call....agreements w/ MC? Does MC know he still called OW? Can this be brought up in counseling? Has h sent NC letter?

WH had agreed in counseling not to have any contact with OW, but he did not send a NC letter. He won't. I think WH only told me about the call because he discovered I was still checking the phone records. Yes, it will be brought up in counseling. In the meantime, he's sleeping on the couch and avoiding me like the plague. Huh...I'm one to talk. Here I am using the internet at the library because I can't stand to be home. Very sad.

Wow! Talk about someone turning on the light! That seems like a mixture of plans a & b.

Seems to me what is being said is be kind, and do what was expected of me when the marriage started, but reserve a level of emotional detachment so that if my actions are not reciprocated, I am not disappointed.

I like this advice. It'll be tough though, after not having my needs met in any form in over a year now.

Thank you.

Maienne, personally I think too many counselors is the same as too many chefs spoiling the soup.If they are both telling you different things, then they are conflicting each other and using up your emotional resources by pulling you in opposite directions. Choose which one that follows your own moral beliefs and values. Remember, you did not step outside the moral boundaries. If you are continuing to conduct yourself as if reconciliation is your option of choice, then there is no need to do anything but stay the course.

These are a few things that have been helpful to me. Note my IC has 30+ years under his belt and is a retired pastor. Both of which have been invaluable to me as my beliefs are very strong. Today is in fact 9th month since NC. Month 6-8 got progressively worse for me. Mindset went to the pit of H#$L. But I've made some leaps and bounds in the past couple of weeks but only because my IC and other prayer partners help me get back to what always helps me when I am struggling. Here are a few:


1. Knowing who my real enemy is (hint: it's not my spouse he only allowed himself to be the vice of the real enemy).

2. Focusing on the positive blessings in my life and absolutely refusing to entertain thoughts that focus on the negative. We do that all to frequently in life and our relationships -- and it is precisely what the enemy wants us to do.

3. Watching my tongue -- it can be one of my own worst enemies -- (i.e. it is the vice of many a Lovebuster). I find it helpful to ask myself is that a loving thing to say, does it express my love, respect? Will it help me progress towards my goal (great marriage) or will it sabatoge my goal?

4. Focusing on what I can control, what I can do. I cannot control my husband, but I do have a choice to work on my relationship with the Lord and work on being the wife, mother, and child of God that he created me to be. Proverbs 31 is a good place to start; and a copy of "Power of the Praying Wife" has been a priceless tool for many years. (This is the emotional needs part -- taking care of H emotional needs and not basing that on whether or not he is meeting mine. A reminder I have gotten from everyone -- here at MB and my support system.)

5. Continually reminding myself -- and I do mean many times a day -- that my husband's behavior is less about me and more about him. He is where he is. Working through it is between him and the good Lord.

6. None of this means being a doormat. It is okay to stand up for ourselves and refuse to be a doormat. This is the one I really have to work on because learning to follow has been no easy task for a strong-willed, independent person like myself -- the result was to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction as my IC says. I am still working on this one.

The references to your IC/MC maybe something you want to think about. You need IC's/MC that collaborate well and are able to stay on the same page.

Your FWH sounds like he is very much in the FOG, contact has not stopped, sounds like he might be experiencing some withdrawel, obviously not completely because there is no NC, but from what you describe he definately sounds like he is experiencing withdrawels due to the limitations that have been placed on him. He also sounds like he is angry with the interference in the A.

Your children. Protect them. Point blank. If you don't who will. What you described is bording emotional abuse. Children need to be protected/shielded from ramifications of the A to the extent that is feasible. The OW does not have the best interest of your children in mind -- if she did she would never have involved herself with their Father. I think your Pastor and H employer would back you up on this. If your IC/MC does not you need to question that.

Adding: I am completely humbled by the fact that I was saved alot of pain early on. The A was severed pretty quickly after exposure. I talked about it in the following link. Although it was severed pretty quickly -- the progress in the past 4-5 months has gone much slower.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3105354

Best Wishes

Just bumping this up because I think I've reached the limit of what I can take. I asked him to promise me he wouldn't call OW anymore. He responded by saying he shouldn't have to earn my trust back...that I either take a leap of faith or I don't. When do you know that enough is enough and how on earth do you ask someone you love to leave?

I know God will see me through this, whatever the outcome, but right now I just plain hurt.

I only have a few minutes before I go home for the day - but I hear your pain and had to respond!!
God bless you - this stuff stinks!!!!

it sounds like you are doing everything right - I know that doesn't help right now, but it is true.

Just a few thoughts - what books have you read?
Surviving an Affair? Love Must Be Tough?

It sounds like your H is still a WH. Granted the fog is still thick - and certainly he shows signs of withdrawl - but he still contacts her and flat out refuses to stop. That is not the action of a man who is in recovery.

I don't know if I agree with your IC or your MC - should you ask him to stay or go??? Clearly, you are rapidly losing all love and respect for him, and that is not good.

I wonder - could you possibly call the Harleys for an appointment? What about your pasor - are you getting any support there? What about his employer? Are they able to offer much help? Is OW still working there??

Family and friends helping you out? Is OW married?
I may not read your responses utnil tomorrow, but hopefully someone will be on tonight to help you through the night.

God bless you - YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS!!!

Ok, one more quick reply!!

Is plan B a possiblity??

Are you keeping a journal??

I would suggest that tonight, you pray the Lord would help you to see your WH through Jesus' eyes. I know your WH is being a big poop! But for tonight - pray to see him as Jesus sees him. because in spite of everything - your WH is clearly hurting, and his pain will not likely stop anytime soon.

I have read Love Must Be Tough. According to Dobson it seems very clear that the best thing for me to do is to ask him to leave until he decides he wants to be my husband again. He is away for a few days and just called to say goodnight to the kids. Before we hung up, he pretty much said he's only staying in order to keep his job (he'll be fired if he leaves me) and that what he'd really like to do is just flat out give up and file for divorce. Goodness, I just read that and wondered why on earth I even have a question about what to do. It's that fog...I keep hoping he'll snap out of it, but perhaps he needs some tough love in order for that to happen...if it will ever happen.

I may call the Harley's tomorrow. Money is a real issue (I left my job to stay at home with the kids the day before WH told me of the A). I should be talking to my pastor, but I haven't because WH asked me not to. Perhaps it's time to go against WH's wishes. His employer is paying for him to be on medical leave provided he continue to go to counseling (IC and MC) and go NC with OW. OW still works there at present, but I doubt she'll be able to withstand the environment (everyone knows). Family and friends are MORE than helping me out. I'm far from alone, but tonight, I sure feel alone. I need to sign off for the evening and go delve into the Word. Then pray, pray, pray.

The hardest part is knowing how much my WH is hurting. I want so much to rescue him and keep him from having to experience the consequences of his own foolish choices...but that can't be healthy for either of us or the kids. Oh, it just hurts so much. So much pain.

M,

I'm sorry you'r in this situation. You have some power on your side. Don't doubt that. Time is on your side. His own moral beliefs, though he may be suppressing them now, are on your side. Your children draw him back to home and hearth. Patience will serve you well. As others have written, don't expect anything. Just put your hand to the plow and don't look back.

I would recommend that you put a keylogger on his computer. Probably while he's "playing games", he's corresponding or IM'ing with OW.

I would recommend that you put a GPS tracker in his car - and check it weekly.

(I used one called "LAS 3100", but there are some newer, smaller models from other manufacturers that probably are better now.)

Don't be blind. This is NOT the time for blind trust. Keep watching him - in every way you know how - and some ways you might just be finding out.

If OW is married (which I'm guessing she's not), your most powerful move is to talk to her husband. He can be your best ally in this.

May God bless you with stregth and endurance for the marathon before you.

-AD