He's been calling her all along. I just checked our wireless phone bill on-line and there are four other sets of calls to her on her cell and at her home. These calls were all made on his way home from work or on the weekend when I was gone with the kids.

I guess I know what to do. It's just so hard.

M:

You are just beginning this fight. You must decide if he is worth keeping. Right now, it is easy to say throw the bum out. But, If you think that he is just off-track right know and he will be a good H again, then get ready to fight.

Do you know the OW?

If you do, Expose, expose, expose. To your parents, His Parents, Employer, etc.

Guess what, you have the power to end this A. Exercise it. You have stated that he would lose his job if he left you. So, make it easy for him to leave by exposing his A. This A will get blown up once everyone knows what is going on.

Sadly, it's been exposed for quite some time now. Everyone knows. His employer put him on medical leave because he kept finding justifications for contacting OW. And yes, I know OW. She was my friend who spent many a day with me and my family.

Maybe I'm just not strong enough to stay the course. If he were showing remorse and honestly struggling with trying to end the A, I could absolutely fight. But this...

I guess I don't know if he could be a good H again. It's been a long time since he was (not to say I don't have my own faults and flaws). I don't know if he can change. I do know he doesn't want to.

So sorry if I seem ungrateful for everyone's advice. I truly am thankful. Thank you.

Maienne--
You sound so much like me, I had to post to you. Truly, reading some of what you posted was like me writing it--in fact, I did write almost the same words--especially abput the hardest part being about how much WH is hurting.

And I guess I am writing to you to tell you to not fear your WH. Easier said than done, but your WH sounds much like mine--making you look like the bad guy--the comments about you taking her from him, etc whe he needs a friend--even the video games when he was really to talking to OW. It's creepy it's so much alike. There are obvious differences (I didn't know of OW until HE left, but still, it's weird).

About the fear--take the pastor comment--OF course he doesn't want you to tell him--then others would know. Tell your pastor and ask him to approach your WH--biblically, he should. I wish I had done this, but I had too much fear at that point.

And please, when he tells you the manipulation, see it for what it is--you already are, and that is major progress.

As for him trying to get out of the marriage looking the least guilty--typical, too, especially at first from my WH. I admit, we are now divorced (a whole 5 days now), but I still can feel the words you are writing, especially in their similarities.

You will be okay, regardless. Fight like heck, but don't fight without boundaries. Boundaries are healthy and show you mean business. They are for you. They are a must have. Reread the Dobson book.

Let me know if I can help anymore--keep posting. We're here for you.

Intexas

I'm so sorry for your D. I hope you are experiencing God's healing grace and mercy.

And thank you very much for your words. I do indeed intend to continue fighting, but I don't think I can do it with him in the house anymore. He's not respecting the boundaries that I have set, and I am feeling more and more like a doormat. And I'm starting to resent him. Not good.

Well the kids are clamouring, so I must run. Thank you.

I would definitely talk to your pastor – if you feel that he would be helpful to you. Do you know him very well? Is it possible that he all ready knows, or at least suspects?
Your WH is desperate to save face and keep his little secret – and that is why he doesn’t want you talking. But at this point, si sounds like a lot of people all ready know. If your WH has a problem it, just tell him that you are hurting, and need all of the emotional and spiritual support you can get.

Your pastor will likely discuss the biblical outline for how to deal with a believer who has strayed, from the book of Matthew. I remember when my pastor and I discussed this – he said that basically Matthew talks about exerting “peer pressure” on the wayward believe. First, in a one on one situation. If that isn’t enough, then with 2 or more confronting him, and eventually with the congregation confronting him. Peer pressure – increasing as time goes by, if he does not repent and turn from his sin.
It sounds like your WH’s employer is possibly following these steps as well. What a blessing to have this employer helping your family! Paying for your WH’s leave as long as he continues his counseling. Wow.

Talk a little more about OW. Where does she come from in all of this? Married? Where are her parents? She works for a Christian organization and yet she gets involved with a married man – and even after he is put on leave she continues to have contact. What on earth is going on in her mind??

You also mention that it has been such a long time since your WH has been a good H. what are you referring to? More than the A? One thing I will remind you of – and I KNOW you all ready know this: Anything is possible. Your WH can become a good H again – in fact, he can become even better. We serve an AWESOME God. I will remind you that God has plans for you – plans to prosper. I have a little more to share about this – but need to go to lunch, so I will check in with you later.

I feel like we've followed all the biblical steps outlined in Matthew. WH is still finding ways to justify his behavior. One of his arguments is that it wouldn't be biblical to put the OW aside...that according to grace we should keep her as a part of our family or at the very least keep her as his personal friend. He also believes he has repented. He keeps saying he's done everything I've asked, including putting aside his best friend. But he can't have repented if he's calling her. In fact, when I mentioned to him today that I saw the other calls on our phone bill, he said he didn't remember them (including the 80 minute call ten days ago.) He seemed to think that a couple of phone calls was really no big deal, and after all, he did tell me about the last one...and said he was sorry.

Am I off base here? Would the truly repentant heart be saying these things?

OW is single, 25, and works in the same department. Her parents have been divorced since she was quite young and she is pretty much a loner. I believe she thinks she's helping save our marriage by being an emotional support for WH. I think she's in a fog all her own.

Oh, this is just so very sad. WH hasn't been a bad H, he just hasn't been here. He has behaved very selfishly, doing whatever he wanted, when he wanted, especially the past 2-3 years, but in his defense I let him. I enabled him. I helped create this. But I also know that I didn't cause the A. And you know, blame doesn't even really matter to me. What matters to me is that my husband honor my need to have him not contact his lover. The fact that he doesn't see what's wrong with his contacting her shows me he's not at a place where he can do as I've asked (does that make sense?) If he's only going through with NC because he thinks it will appease everyone, then it's not going to work. I'm starting to think NC will only work if he wants it (despite what his feelings for OW may be.)

I know he's going to come back from his trip and he's going to try and reason me out of this line of this line of thinking. He's going to try any and all tactics to get me to back off and just put the blinders on. He's so good at this and I have always been weak. I always seem to lose my identity and all confidence in my own thoughts and opinions when he's around. I know God can and does use everything for his perfect purpose and for good, but I feel like everything is hinging is this one decision: do I pretend like none of this happened and let him continue to live here with nothing changing (granted, God can accomplish anything), or do I put my foot down and tell him he either needs to make an absolute commitment or he needs to leave.

He told me today that if I asked him to leave, it would be for good. He wouldn't consider separation.

I'm babbling. I'm tired. I feel manipulated and abused. And I hurt so much for him. I wish God would just drop a little note from the sky outlining exactly what I should do.

I'll be alright. God won't let me go. He won't let WH go either.



One more thing: WH is being quite beligerant (sp?) about the fact that I don't trust him. He says that any trust that has to be earned is bogus. How do I express to him that it isn't about 'earning' trust back? How do I tell him I simply can't give my trust to him under these conditions? Not that I think he'd hear me anyway. He's already made up his mind. Alright...getting depressed. I'm going to take my two beautiful children for a walk on this warm, sunny day.

Thank you all for listening. I'm so needy right now.

There is nothing wrong with being needy!. I know how you feel – it is embarrassing, humiliating, and draining. You go to the grocery store and feel like there is a neon sign above your head that says “This woman couldn’t keep her husband around”. You see older couples together and imagine that you and your H will never be that older couple. Heck, I even felt like I had let me children down. If only I had been a better wife, their Dad would have stayed, and they would still have him around. People offered help – my best friend would say things like “this is NOT your fault” and I would say “yes, but….” But I was not the perfect wife, I could have been better, I should have been better, so even though I did not cause him to cheat, I certainly was not the best wife I could be, therefore I am partially to blame……

In time, I was finally able to quit beating myself up. I was finally able to accept the help that was offered to me – and before this is all over you will need help. I came to realize that one of the lessons I was supposed to learn was this – People want to help. Let them. I am sure you are happy to help other people – so let them help you for a change.

Your H has not said or done anything different from any other WS. Not a single new thing. That crap about trust. It is crap. And even he knows it. He is hoping to bluff you. It is so sad it is almost funny. Deep down inside he knows that what he is doing is wrong. He is not an idiot. He knows. I could help you find the scripture to throw at him – but it wouldn’t help. He doesn’t want to hear it, and has all ready prepared an argument against it. My WxH said things like “Surely God intended for me to meet her – otherwise why would he have brought her into my life” and anytime he was confronted by someone from our church he would say “does everyone think I am going to he11? Is that what you all think? Who made you the judge and jury” and of course, I also heard the “I have all ready prayed and asked for forgiveness, so I have been forgiven. I even spoke to a chaplain who said all I had to do was ask to be forgiven, and that was it” of course, I later found out that the chaplain also told him that he needed to repent, turn AWAY from his sin, and ask for forgiveness. My WxH was living with the OW and her kids at the time. So I said “honey, I totally understand what you are talking about. You have been forgiven. But – you continue to live in sin – you have not turned away from the sin – it is still happening today”. Of course he just got mad, and again I heard the old “who are you to judge?”

When your H says that if you ask him to leave it will be for good he will never come back – that is just another classic line. Also – they ALL will say that they have “made up their mind, they are never coming back” and also that “OW is my best friend, if you take my best friend away I will never forgive you” you will hear all this stuff, and then a couple of days later they act like they never said it. In fact, in some cases, after the WS does come back, they don’t even recall half of the ugly things they said.

You need to come up with a plan. That is how you will set your boundaries, and enforce them. It sounds like you have been in “plan A” for awhile now. Do you feel like you have done a good plan A? Have you left a memory imprinted in his brain that your home is a good place to be? I know he has nothing good to say right now – but do you think that somewhere in his thick head he at least remembers that your home is a good place to be?

If you go into a dark, strong Plan B – does he have a place to go? Is there someone you can use as a go-between? Are you ready for plan B?
Could you perhaps set a deadline to your plan A? Say, perhaps, 4 weeks from now? Would that help you feel like you have a goal, a plan?

It sounds like you need to better understand that being kind to him – doing a good plan A – does not mean that you have to be a doormat. There is nothing wrong with saying to him “your continued contact with you’re A partner causes me great pain” you do not allow him to live there and pretend that nothing has happened. Something has happened, and needs to be healed. What your H is doing now is not good for either of you. Honestly,as much as he is still talking to her – you are not in recovery. The A is still on. He may not currently be sleeping with her – but the A is still on. The amount of time he spends talking to her – is taking away from his time with you and the kids. He is sharing his personal thoughts, his feelings, with another woman. He should be sharing this with you. His conversations with her are wrong, and the two of you will never heal as long as they continue. So, to answer your question, No, you will not allow this to go on forever. But for now, if you can continue plan A for awhile, then it is ok to say something like “your continued contact with you’re A partner hurts me deeply. I need to ask you to respect your wife, and respect our home. Please do not talk to her in our home any longer”. He can go outside and sit on the porch to talk to her.

You see – you do not need to be mean – but you need to be firm. Don’t cry, beg, or plead. Just remind him ever so gently that you love him, and want to help him, but you simply will not allow a third party into your marriage.

I know, I am getting too wordy again - but wanted to address this:


They are all beligerant - again, nothing new.
No matter what you say, he won't hear it. While you are speaking, he is thinking of an arguemtn. he is addicted to this two bit wh*re, and needs to get his fix, and doesn't care how he gets it.

You can not give your trust to him - you are right.But right now, that isn't even an issue. What trust is he talking about? Tath he should be able to talk to hre for 80 minutes and you are not allowed to question it? That isn;t even a trust issue. He is being cruel to you.
You need to remind him "honey, it hurts my feelings when you talk to her. She was my friend. She knows me, and our children. And yet she slept with my H. When you continue to talk to her , to share your personal feelings with her, it hurts me deeply. It opens that scab on my heart, and it will never heal as long as she continues to be a 3rd party in our relationship."

This isn't even a trust issue.

Well, he's leaving. He said it seems right for him to go be with OW.

I'm shocked and amazed at the anger this has brought out in me. I'm being very careful not to act out in anger, but inside I'm seething.

WH is now pouring all his efforts into trying to make me see that the M would have failed anyway, regardless of the A. He even quoted scripture at me. He used a passage in Matthew on marital unfaithfulness being a basis for divorce (unfaithfulness being different from adultery) and how we had both been unfaithful to our marriage by letting it fail. He's also desperate for me to see that he did his very best to make things right after disclosing the A to me, that he really really tried. Needless to say I don't believe any of this garbage. Yes, I made mistakes in our M. Yes, I take full responsibility for the part I played in creating an environment that was ripe for adultery. But I did not cause the A (he says he knows he alone made the choice, but he obviously still blames me). And there is no way for a M to recover while the A is still going on or while the OW is still in the picture. Should I even go into how he's convinced that I could never forgive him for what he's done and that he would feel like he would spend the rest of his life trying to earn my trust back? (If any of you knew me, you would laugh out loud at that.) Not to mention that he flat out refuses to ever break contact with OW even if they don't continue a romantic relationship because he has an obligation to her as a friend. And of what his obligation to me, you might ask? Well, he wants to keep us both. Since I've told him he can't have OW as a friend and be my husband simultaneously, and since he and I have to have a relationship due to the children, leaving me and trying with OW is the only logical choice.

Sigh...I guess I've just got to accept the fact that he will do anything and say anything to assuage some of his guilt. Who knows, he probably believes everything he's saying. But I don't. My husband is leaving me and my children because of his affair with another woman.

Oh, I'm so mad. I'm so mad at him! I know this isn't necessarily the end of our M, but it sure does feel like it. It's so hard not to look into the future and see WH and OW living happily ever after. Do any of you know how that makes me feel? I honestly feel ill at the thought. Physically ill. I can't even pray right now, I've got so much stuff in the way. I can only appeal to the Holy Spirit to intervene for me.

Phew I've got an awful lot that I need to get out. Sadly, I have to wait until he's actually moved out until I can let myself start to really cry. So that leaves me with anger. A whole lot of anger. And ya know...for someone who has a hard time allowing herself to be angry, maybe this isn't such a bad thing.

Thanks for listening everyone.

I am so sorry you are going through this crap!!!!

Your anger is not a bad thing – it will help to get you through these next few days.

Ok, so take a deep breath, and start getting YOUR plan for YOUR life together!
1. When is he moving out?
2. Where is he going to live? (I hope he isn’t going to live with you while he is apartment hunting with the OW)

I am hoping some other people will chime in with help here! I am a little sketchy. For myself, there was no way I could have watched my WxH wander around the house pining after the home wrecking OW. The day he told me about the A he offered to stay with the boys and I to “help me out around the house” and I said “No. If youa re having an A, you need to leave. This home is my place of refuge, I will not have you bringing that sort of activity here”. So he moved in with his mom for about a week, and then went to live with OW. Honestly, I have never regretted that. But I know that a lot of people would advise you to “keep him home as long as possible”.
The way I see it – your WH has never stopped making contact with her. They have been talking by phone frequently. He has likely been making plans with her all along, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you said he was likely trying to bait you into tossing him out, so he could blame you. Looks like he has given up waiting, and now he has decided to go ahead and move out.

Did you install a key logger on your home PC? I am hoping you will be able to gather evidence – if for no other reason than to save your own sanity.

I would suggest you do everything you can to not get into an argument with him at this point. When he tries to debate scripture with you, or tries to convince you that “this is really for the best” Just smile and say “I can see why you feel that way, and I am sorry, but I simply don’t agree”. Be polite, and friendly, and just don’t get into any discussions right now. Because the truth is, he is looking for a fight, something to put the blame on, and anytime you give into that, you will end up mad at yourself. I remember my WxH baiting me into an argument, in front of his mom, and I finally got fed up and said “Just shut up for a minute and let me speak!”. Instantly he jumped up and said “See!! See how controlling she is!! She has always been that way! I told you! She even tells me to shut up!”.
Of course, that was the first time I had ever told him to shut up. I never speak like that! But he kept baiting me, until I finally took the bait, and he got exactly what he wanted – evidence of what an awful wife I was.
If you fear that you will not be able to hold your tongue, then avoid him at all possible cost. Believe me, you will only end up kicking yourself if you lash out at him.

It sounds like you are ready for plan B – have you read up on plan B?

Your M is not over. Not by a long shot. Hang in there. When I was going through this I actually took great comfort in reading the book of James. It sounds sort of bad to admit this – but I think I liked that book because it assures you that God will take care sinners who refuse to repent!

So far your WH is following the script exactly. Everything you describe is par for the course. I knew that he was likely to try to twist scripture around. That is actually somewhat encouraging – he knows what the scriptures say, and he apparently has been reading them lately. Granted, he is trying to find a way to twist it in his favor – but at least he has been looking. He cannot continue to twist the word of God.

Have you talked to his employer yet? What about your pastor?

You need to build your support team, people who will pray for you, even when you are just to beat up to pray for your self.

Take care of yourself, my sister-in-Christ.

When will the downward spiral stop!!!!!!!!

Quick update (if there is such a thing) WH moved in with his brother a week ago. Because he broke faith with his employer, he is now negotiating to keep his job. Since WH has not been in touch with OW (to my knowledge), I have continued having contact with him, but the manipulations are overwhelming. It's the most frustrating thing to hear your spouse say he'd divorce you if it weren't for the condemnation he'd receive from family and friends, and then have him charge you with cruelty when you tell him you don't want to see him for a while. I haven't composed a Plan B letter yet, but had to do something right away...followed my IC and MC's advice and am physically removing myself from unnecessary contact with WH while things are so awful.

A recent example of the 'awfulness' is a friend approached me in church and asked what was going on. I told him about the separation, but nothing more. This friend contacted WH and WH is extremely angry with me for not telling him I had this conversation. WH has never wanted me to talk to anyone and if I did, he wanted to know all the details. Since I didn't do as he wished, he said that maybe he should move back into the house and ask me to leave for breaking his trust. (This is one example of many.)

I felt really threatened by that and I feel afraid a lot of the time...mostly afraid that he's going to convince me that I should go back to talking to no one in order to spare him. And then where would I be? Truly, what can I do but stop contact with him? Of course, every step I take towards that causes him to bring out the bigger guns and it gets harder and harder. What on earth happened to that sweet guy I met all those years ago? A better question...how on earth do I stick to my boundaries when I'm so darn afraid.

Someone please tell me I can't back down no matter how hard he pushes...now matter how cruel he says I am for not wanting him to come to church with us or for not wanting to talk with him alone...no matter how miserable I know he is...no matter how he threatens me

I had thought he was starting to turn a corner and show some signs of remorse. Then I confronted him with the phone calls, and now that's all gone. Now it's back to being all about me again. Sorry. I'm babbling. I'm exhausted and hurting. So tired of this.

Finally talked talked to my pastor on Wednesday and he was just an amazing support. Wish I had gone against WH's wishes and done it much sooner. WH is going in to talk with the pastor on Tuesday...I'm afraid of what repurcussions that will bring.