just needed to know.Thanks for all the advice that i have gotten so far.

yes yes yes yes yes...

why do you ask...

HECK YES. Some are more fogged out than the WS.

how do you recognise it?

I just want to be level headed.

too nebulous to answer...

the worst BS fog...
is believing that have a WS at ANY cost is better than NOT having them back...

that's the most dangersous and damaging....

but there is lots in between...

what are issues that you are starting to believe a WS is "right" about...

in other words...
if a WS craps starts sounding like logic...

that loud noise in the background better be a fog-horn...calling the BS back to reality

ARK

My personal definition of BS fog is really very similar to WS fog and the telltale sign is this..

What they choose to BELIEVE is not in agreement with the known FACTS.

If you find your beliefs and your verifiable/concrete information conflicting...conditions suggest possible fog...evaluate and redirect.

when one says: If you were being more like a "man"(wth),looking into providing for family better,yadda,yadda. Has some token truth and i know that this contributed to damage in our M.

I want to accept blame in roles, but i feel like she doesnt even see where she has gone wrong. sometimes i feel like i take too much blame.

nc007, YES! And I'm in it! Look, it took a long time for me to stop blaming my wife's A and start realizing how I contributed to the break down of our marriage. The well meaning advice of my friend's and family was based on the cute little "half-truths" I threw out. It fueled the fire of anger and did more to harm any chance at recovery we had that just about anything else.

A spouse's A forces you to look deep and face hard truth's about yourself. Until you do, you'll never be able to make the changes and achieve the growth you need in order to recover or heal and move on.

Also nc007, I'm right there with you at this point. I am accepting WAY too much blame right now. I'm trying to reach a middle ground.

Listen to the vets! They know what they are talking about.

Peter

peter thank you for responding. It means taking a hard look at myself. got it.

Yes and i am looking for the middleground.

noodle.....the facts are that she never really felt secured also the fact is that she choose to have the A. but i am trying to change this.

Ark^^ how do you validate their feelings w/o taking their blame?

ML....what do you do let them rant. how do i know that i am not deciving myself that things may get better.?

Yes what they all said. BS fog is when they post :

"Dear all, OM is banging my wife in our bed with the kids asleep in the bedroom next door while I eat cold baked beans in the gutter watching their antics through the window whose mortgage I pay. I'm frightened to expose and exercise tough love/ personal boundaries in case I make it worse".

BS fog is ANTI entitlement : "This terrible situation is all I can get". It is fear manifested as acceptence of the unacceptable.

b0b.......what are you saying ?confront her? i have exposed and i have told her what i know. I guess tough and personal boundaries are what i need to learn. any link?

I wasn't making a comment personalised for you NC. Just demonstrating with a cartoon what BS fog can look like.

I know THIS: I had to own what I did to help make our marriage unsatisfying pre-A, and I had to just as importantly leave the rest stinking the place out until Squid took ownership of it.

I had a temptation to take more than my share of responsiility because I thought once SOMEBODY picked it up we could decamp out of he11 and move on. But that doesn't work. I recall that fear that calling my WS on her bad might anger her or make her leave home. Then I realised she was baging an old wastrel, rewriting teh story of our GOOD life together and crap-calling me everywhere.

Indignation made me do the right thing.

Personal boundaries are, well, PERSONAL 'natch. I worked out the inviolable behaviours I would divorce over if persistently disrespected. There were ( and are) very few in fact:

* UBER NC for ever
* Transparency in activities & communication
* Investment in our marriage

When my Squid realised i would actually divorce her if she continued as she was, it was a wake up call to her.

Opening the door is a far more effective way of keeping a spouse than desperately trying to keep it closed.

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. If the roles were reversed do you think your wife would be so accepting as you?

ok.so its just to find my boundaries........i dont know which or what they are.

well b0b....i have work to do.

nc,

Yes there is a fog. I think many BS rewrite history as well. In my heart I knew my M was not very good. Now my problem is really that I should have had the A not her. LOL. But if you sit down and rewrite your history and not take your part in it then you are fogged.

It has been very hard for me because what our problems were her way of treating me. She had no respect, admiration or appreciation of me and what I did. My part was accepting that. Not having boundries and when she crossed those boundries I didn't enforce them. So when faced with treating me with no respect, admiration, or appreciation and to cross a boundry what was the down side.

Sounds like I am a victim. NOPE. I actively condoned and accepted this from her.

Was I perfect nope. What I have realized is in order for our M to get better I need to do my part. I have to take ownership of my wrongdoings or faults.

I need to enforce my boundries at all costs. I have found an effective way to do that without getting angry with her and dropping DJ's and LB's. TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT.

I see my part no matter what it is. Our MC has acknoledged as much. I continue to discuss boundries and how she doesn't respect them.

But I will know my part. If you didn't listen to her when she talked and she felt isolated or ignored that is on you to change.

You keep working on your pre A flaws and that is all you can do. Lead by example.

THanks HL. One of those boundaries was not letting her realize when she does something to me to hurt inside. I should have nipped it in the bud.

I am really scared that my M wont work out.

Not a pity party .just how i feel about now......i think it has more to do with my DS.

Also add: And while I am watching, the WS comes out of our house and says that if I move off that curb it would be the last straw and now I am completely,totally and personally responsible for the D.


AND I BELIEVE EVERY WORD.

manipulation..........I think WW has a Phd. in this.

need to clear my head.

Thanks CA.

NC,

Yes the thing with boundries is not knowing what they are and how to enforce them.

I now see that one of my biggest mistakes was not letting my FWW deal with the consequences of her actions pre A. If she spent money that put us in a hole. I took ownership and got us out of the hole. I usually dealt with the consequences of her decesions. Why should I expect her not to have an A when she never deals with the consequences.

How do I make that a boundry? When you make a bad decesion I won't fix it. UMMM not if that bad decesion that doesn't get fixed effects my kids. Can I force her to deal with the consequences? No. So how do I make that a boundry and how do I enforce it.

Today I tell her I am not comfortable with the decesion if I think it is a bad one. I will point out my concerns. I will then point out the consequences. I will then let her deal with them. If she doesn't deal with them then I am more apt to not agree to any decesions in the future with negative consequences. She is now living that existence.

So all I can do is make sure I do not repeat the bad decesions I made in the past. I cannot change her willingness to do so. I also cannot deal with the consequences of my bad decesions(because oh yes I make them too) and the consequences of her bad decesions. Heck I have a hard enough time dealing with my own. LOL

This is an abstract problem. It is not easy to put your finger on. It is hard to see it coming. But now I am acutely aware that it is happening and all I can do is do the best I can to make myself safe in this environment.

Manipulation....perhaps.

BS lack of self respect.....we have a winner