I have been pondering this…
Why people don’t want to make any effort to do the right thing.
Why they prefer to “not make a fuss” or “get involved”.
Even when it is plain that a family member or someone at work or at church is doing something selfish and hurtful to his partner, like having an A.

I think that is because few of us have learned to stand up for what is right.
In fact, we don't really know what is right many times when it comes to really DOING something.
We will moan and groan and gossip and condemn...
But do nothing, and in fact accept.

I think that is because most of us are conditioned to be a “good girl” or a “good boy”.
When we are small children and powerless,
all we need has to come from the people that are raising us…
Mostly, our parents.
All the nutrition, both physical and emotional, the encouragement, the stimulation…
All we need to survive.

We learn at a very early age what gets us the "nutrition" we need.
We learn that we have to “behave” in a certain way.
We need to be a “good” little boy/girl !
And we take that behavior into our adult relationships.

Telling someone “Hey, I don’t agree with this.” doesn’t make you a good boy/girl.
They’ll get upset at you.
Too much trouble
Too much risk
And most of all
No way to get any "nutrition" !!
In fact… "nutrition" might even be taken away from you because of what you say/do !

It takes a strong person to stand up for what you believe, no matter if people will “like” you or not when you do it.
You need to know that you can provide for yourself, so to speak.
If you fear at some level that upsetting others might cause you to “starve”…
You will not act
Out of self preservation.

To take this one step further
in my opinion, a Giver is actually not such a wonderful loving person.
They're just Giving because they want to be a good boy/girl.
Because they want to get "nutrition" that way.
Not because they want to do the right thing.

In my opinion real love.. has nothing to do with being a Giver.
It might LOOK like a Giver is a very loving person.
But you might be amazed at how resentful Givers can get when at some point they realise all their Giving resulted in nothing..
When they realise they're not getting any "nutrition" back for all their efforts..
for all their sacrifices..
MAJOR resentment instead of love !

I knoooow... been there, done that !

I'm very interested in your reactions on this one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Makes perfect sense to me -- top to bottom.

Very insightful.

Damn!........sound like my WW!
"I have given all this time to our M and you have not.....so now i will do what makes me happy !(A)"

the "Giver" gone wild.

Brown,

Great post...resonated with me beyond the Giver...

"This is none of your business."
"This is adult business, run along."
"Don't look, you'll embarrass that person."
"Don't ask personal questions; it's rude."
"In my house, you follow my rules. You wanna question my rules, move somewhere else."
"Don't overstep your bounds. Keep out of the way and don't be nosey."

For when we asserted ourselves before we knew nutrition would be withheld?

"Don't question what you don't know."

(That cracks me up now, but I heard it a lot.)

With all those voices in our heads, those phrases repeated at low volumes in our thoughts...is it more than not doing the right thing from fear, or not KNOWING the right thing to do from fear? Whose rules apply? Whose business is it? If we're in the business of truth, then we do state our opinion, act on our beliefs and live honestly.

Not easy...lots of noise in the way in our perception and perspective...fearful children on the inside do not make for brave adults on the outside...unless they act anyway.

Which is what we do here at MB...doesn't take strong people...there's lots of false strength in judging others and telling them how to run their lives (which is how we could be described from the outside)...takes bravery to do the right thing for ourselves, state our opinions, live in our truth and see clearly our path.

And encourage others to consider how trained we are, conditioned and full of hidden fears (doesn't make them any less real) which we are truly acting from, thinking from, feeling from...which is like living under a disguise and makes it very difficult to act differently.

Do it anyway.

LA

I also think you need to add that most people are brought up not to "tell tales" or snitch on other people. The person who tells tales to authority in school is usually looked down on by their peers and probably bullied. I think most teachers dislike a "snitch" as well. In my country's culture anyway.

The stoolpigeon is always portrayed in movies as a grubby little person.

I also think that people's innate need to be liked has a bearing on not standing up for what they believe in.

Sometimes "giving" is just "enabling."

This is sooooo true, A.M.

Somewhat like the concept of unconditional love for a spouse--it's bull hockey! Unconditionally love someone despite the continued abuse and cheating, etc? Conditions have to exist, as does realizing that giving, or saying you love "unconditionally" exist hand in hand.

No, like you said, they are just enabling--in whatever realm that might be.

For me, looking back I cannot believe that I told WH I would ALWAYS wait for him. What respect did I have for myself, my kids, him? if I was basiacally saying (enabling) to WH to go ahead and have as many A's as you'd like, emotionally and verbally abuse me as much as you want--I'll still be here because I "unconditionally" love you.

Unconditional love=enabling=giving too much
I see the connection.

Great post, Brownhair!

I was so upset and hurt by all the enabling that WXH and OW got from friends, relations, and their place of work. No-one caused any rumpus in the A at all apart from me.

And that really went against the grain!

ILs have accepted their son and his 'new partner' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> and haven't said a harsh word about the affect his affair and divorce has had on his kids.

I have had a hard time dealing with how everyone just accepts this, I must confess. I even felt angry with my kids <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> for behaving perfectly when they are around visiting with WXH and OW. They show no anger or resentment towards them. So WXH and OW think the kids haven't been damaged at all. It only shows when they are with me!

The 'real love' that I feel for my kids involves telling them that what their dad did isn't right. I don't bad-mouth him, but his behaviour. Now it seems there isn't even much point in doing that any more - it's all water under the bridge now, and I am a lone voice in the dark.

I feel like such a boring old fart sometimes - trying to walk the stright and narrow and continue to teach my DDs that there is a right way to conduct oneself in a relationship. The other day, DD13 asked me if I had read 'Bridges of Madison County', and if I liked it. I said I had read it, but didn't like it because the woman had an affair. She raised her eyes to heaven, like, geez mom are still still going on about that?

I hope that one day it will sink in. I'm fed up with being the boring 'moral' one, and dad and OW being the fun 'liberal' ones. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Alph.

Are you familiar with the SEP field that Douglas Adams described in his infamous books? I am a firm believer that very many things are covered by the SEP field.

If you are not familiar with the "SEP field", just google it. It is fascinating reading.

I have always taken some issue with the regular exhortation on these boards that conflict avoidance is a terrible thing to be avoided at all costs.

Can you IMAGINE what a person would be like who NEVER exercised CA ? Who pursued every suspicion ?

I reckon they'd have no friends and no job. They better get a lot of satisfaction from their self-regard over that behaviour.

While not avoiding valuable conflict, I think it is arrogance to pursue every disagreement. The skill is , I guess, in drawing the line as to what conflict is beneficial to pursue and which sleeping dogs are left to lie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Awesome thread Brownhair!

Thanks you all for your wonderful replies !

KiwiJ - I agree.
And sometimes it's hard to know if you're looking for "nutrition" from your teachers by telling..
or if you're looking for "nutrition" from your peers by NOT telling..
or if you're doing the right thing, not looking for "nutrition"..
tricky stuff.

Loving Anyway - For me, the thing is to find that little voice that is always right on the nose. Making all the other voices be silent.. and then that little voice will always be there. It's what makes your hair stand up or what suddenly brings tears to your eyes when you see/hear/encounter it - because you just know deep down that it is RIGHT. (I hope this makes sense)
"Don't question what you don't know" ??
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I'd like to ask Orchid for some reverse babble on that one !!
I can only think of "So you don't know the answer either?"

Bob - of course "standing up for what is right" should be combined with understanding and love. Being a total CA is just the other side of the spectrum from bullying everyone into doing the right thing, even when they're terribly deep in denial/fog/fear.

Hi Pio, I'll look up SEP tonight, am on my lunch break now.

My dear Alphin,
time to awake your Taker and have some fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Wanna go somewhere this weekend?

InTexas,
I do believe in unconditional love.
But to me it means you will do whatever is right also.
That might mean removing WS from your life.
Loving someone unconditionally means you will always hope/wish the best for them..
Doing what you can for them without damaging yourself or others.
Doing what you can might be never contacting them again, too.
Loving unconditionally doesn't mean being a pushover.
It can seem like anything but love really, when you don't budge under emotional pressure/black mail and do the right thing BECAUSE you love someone.

A.M. Martin: I remember the story of a man who felt bad for a beggar, and gave him 50$. The beggar got really drunk on that money, and beat up his wife when he got home because he was so drunk.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thanks SmarkCookie, BringItOn and NC007.
It helps me understand to formulate my thoughts and getting replies here.

But you might be amazed at how resentful Givers can get when at some point they realise all their Giving resulted in nothing..

well the truth is that they own that resentment...

have no one to blame but themsevles...
they turn their giving and doing in to a weapon...
tainted from them...

inspite of others responses or lack there of...

how many women lament..
I did allll the housework
I did allll the childrearing
I did allll the money management
I did allll the fill in the blank...

when there is a long history of setting their lives up this way....

constantly putting their spouses down
telling them they are doing it wrong
and belittling them..

NOT
to mention marrying poor specimens for a spouse/father in the first place...

then they play the victim martyr card..

WAH WAH WAH!!!
ark

WAH WAH WAH ?
LOL ark^^ ! (hey, I got your upcarrots straight!)
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Problem is getting such a person to turn around and look at themselves.
All that time and energy invested..
And then to admit that your motivations were wrong?
Ouch !
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Brownhair,

Never thought of unconditional love that way--in those words. Because the last statement of that quote above from you is what I still feel for my stbx. I couldn't explain it before within the realm of what I always viewed marriage as, but seeing it in that light--in those words--really helped clarify for me how I feel. I have said from the beginning that soem of my greatest pain sprung from what he has done and is doing to himself by making these horrid choices. I never wanted to see him miserable. NEver. I avtually know that if I just took him back, he would never change and would continue to make thee type of choices over and over again--because I was giving him the quick fix he needs. He has yet to even attempt to face the root of his choices.

I guess it is somewhat like the love the Lord has for us--on the discipline end--not saying marriage is like a parent/child relationship, but in the sense that sometimes God has to discipline us for our actions. And we have to make the hard choices and decisions because we do love the other. Just as God disciplines those He loves.

And while I see myself as a giver, I don't regret all the giving I did in my marriage. Sometimes I think I should have spoken up more, but I've learned that lesson and will in the future make the necessary changes--not be such a pushover.

Non-pushover Intexas--watch out world! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hello intexas,

a pushover in Texas?
Nah, contradictio in terminis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

All joking aside..
I think that it's pretty wonderful that you don't regret the giving you did in your marriage.
And that you still wish your STBX the best, yet refuse to enable him by taking him back at this point.
Your actions describe what unconditional love is about to me.

Thanks for sharing that.

I'm not in such a good place (yet)..
Too much hurt..
I don't wish X anything BAD, never have, but that's as far as it goes for me at this time.
I need to heal some more.