Has anyone had a WS send a no contact letter falsely? My H has lied and deceived so many times in the last 2 years that I can hardly believe that the no contact letter will not be disregarded. I can almost hear the phone call of H telling her that this letter is on the way and just don't worry about it. Our counselor signed it first, then H, then I. Counselor mailed it, too.

My trust in H has been demolished not only by lies about her, but even small lies about where he is when I ask. I cannot tell a truth from a lie anymore. The last contact was via phone last week sometime and him going to her myspace page for at least a look (don't know if he corresponded with her there).

The trust issue is what is destroying us.

Many do lie and break no contact.

You must snoop and INSPECT what you EXPECT...

Mrs. W

verify everything......

Thanks for the resonses...I do check and always seem to find out about contact etc...calling card, pay phone, cookies on the computer. I am sick to death of being Columbo. It is exhausting and I am sick of it. It is not the real me. The no contact letter we signed on Thursday night and our m/c mailed Friday gave me such hope. I went to bed Thursday feeling a huge sense of relief. Woke up Friday feeling like I will probably be duped again. He gets sneakier each time. When I told him last Tuesday, that I could not take anymore discoveries and was getting out he begged and pleaded that he could not live without me. He insisted he could do it (nc). I said I had to save myself (from his lying and my snooping).

I want so bad to believe. I want to not have to check. I know to have one, I have to do the other but am so plum tuckered out.

OMG, you have been dealing with this for 2 years??

Wow, the MC signed the NC letter? While I think you should expect him NOT to keep to the letter, just the fact that the MC's repuatation is on it, might help.

I think the MC signing it is a fantastic idea!!! Kudos to your MC! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

While I think that the NC letter plays a role in the R process, I would be willing to bet that the majority of NC promises,like the WS's marriage vows, easily are abandoned.

It's not what the WS says or writes, it is the actions that are relevant

Again, thank you all for your responses....I have been on this forum enough in the last year (without posting) to know that each of you are respected MB experts.

The statement regarding actions rather than words is so true but deceiving as well. His IC (our M/C) has agreed that he is very good at compartmentalizing his life. During the last year, while I was pulling out all the stops to save our marriage, he was able to be affectionate with me but gave her priority. For example, when he went away on a 3 day golf outing, he was in the door at home for less than 5 minutes when he had to RUSH over to the office for some very important updates from her (she is only a receptionist)...These "important" updates were nonexistant as I had already spoken to the office manager and then verified the next day about his "important" updates. There were none. It turns out OW was going on a trip the next day and he needed to see her. It is just one event of the mutitude that had been transpiring for a couple of years. The first year, I chose to ignore, thinking I was just being paranoid, even with solid proof of activities that were explained away by H. I trusted him. Then the second year of this craziness I really got busy.

I was finally able to get her to leave the office this past June after a major exposure to the rest of the staff (they really already knew), as well as giving him an ultimatum (her or me, he chose to move out for 2 months) but the phone contact continued ever since. She lives far enough away to make physical contact a chore, but not impossible.

He is so able to act lovingly toward me, but emotionally connected and invested in her. She found his weaknesses and he failed to protect them. The result was a 2 year addiction that I do not have the will to fight against anymore. I think it will be totally up to him. You know, people talk about triggers all the time....my worst trigger is my H. Can you beat that? When I am with him, I rehash all the lies, deceptions and betrayals that he was/is capable of. I cannot tell whether he is genuine in his feelings/actions for me.

The MC wants me to give it 4 weeks to turn the corner, starting with last week when I truely wanted to get out. I decided I had gone this long, what is 4 more weeks. His optimism is really wonderful, however he has been duped a couple of times since H started IC with him in July. I informed the IC because he wanted to start MC but he and I agreed, no MC without no contact in place. Hence the NC letter of last week.

cc1,



How so?

Plan B this WS.

He wants you, but continues to lie, cheat and deceive.

Let him make a choice, but after you put him out.

I think he needs the "head slap" to understand what he is really going to lose.

Cymanca - his actions to me are mostly affectionate...says he loves me, etc. These actions by themself would tell a spouse that everything is good in the marriage. But he can do these things and carry on a relationship with her simultaniously. That is the compartmentalizing he is doing. I cannot trust his actions to me because they don't really match the hurt he brings along with it.

I know my situation is different than a lot of the troubled spouses who come to this forum...I never got the speech. He claims to love me. But carrying on a relationship with someone else at the same time is not loving.

Lousy Golfer - I believe I am the poster child for doing too long of a Plan A and not doing a Plan B soon enough. Last Tuesday was the end for me. H went to his IC session and the IC (our MC) called me during his session requesting I come in alone later that day. He talked me into giving it 4 weeks with H doing IC on Tuesdays and us in MC on Thursdays. I agreed.

Actually, I did a really bad Plan B for a couple of months in May, June and July. This is when I did a last resort exposure and she quit, I believe because she couldn't face the co-workers. Oh boy, he wanted to hire her back. Then he wanted to give her $10,000.00. I finally agreed to allow her 2 weeks severence pay (which she totally did not deserve). Back in April, I had asked H to buy her out of her job for $10,000.00, I even wrote the check. He would have none of it back then when I was falling apart, but after she quit, he really wanted to give her the money. I told him it was no longer on the table.

Every move he makes is suspect to me. I just want to trust him by him being trustworthy. Everything feels counterfeit to me.

cc1:

Your sitch is not much different than many here at MB. But many here at MB have stopped allowing the WS from continuing to trample thier self-respect. That's what your WH is doing. Stepping on your self-respect each time he does what he does. You no longer have to allow him to hurt you or enable his behavior. Kick him out. Set the boundaries for his return, and then start creating a life without him.

Affection? Can your WH treat you with Affection even while he is in the midst of an LTA? You betcha! I did. for 4.5 Years. Thought my M was great. How foggy is that?

You busted him 2 years ago and have worked hard both at a Plan A and weak Plan B.

Now, go with the Strong Plan B.

He either gets it or he doesn't. Why worry about him? He's enjoying the cake, with ice cream, that he has now. You can create the life you like for yourself.

LG - Are you serious? You had a 4.5 year affair AND were able to act like a loving husband and father? I assumed this would be so impossible as to make it really unusual. How long before your wife suspected and how did she deal with it? I am shocked. Was she someone you worked with? How did you cover your tracks?

I am going to try to go with the 4 week plan as outlined by the MC. I will plan A as best I can during that time. The last couple of months since he moved back, it has been very difficult to plan A as he kept getting caught every couple of weeks and I would blow a gasket because of the duping. I kept thinking he would wake up and see what a dumb bag of rocks she really is. I have directed any of my friends and family who asks what she looks like to OW's myspace page. No one can believe he would take the chance of losing everything for such a low life. Think Charo.

I am so floored, that I have thought of some additional questions:
How many WS or BS have had this same experience? I have not read about cases where a spouse could so easily conceal their feelings. Is this more common place than I thought? If it is, it really puts a new spin on this whole nightmare for me. If a WS can act in a loving fashion toward their spouse while secretly acting lovingly toward the OP too, then wouldn't PLAN A be a useless tool? Also wouldn't MC be just as useless?

And wouldn't this constitute a lifelong behavior which would not be eliminated even with a Plan B. Wouldn't the WS do it again and again? I am thoroughly confused.

Please, WS and BS respond....can the wayward usually act lovingly to the BS and the OP at the same time?

cc1:

Review this site. There are plenty of LTA. Us WS with LTA develop split personalities to manage it.

But, I stopped when confronted and worked with my BS to correct the issues that existed in my M. Even from before the A.

Your H continues to do the A. You allow him to continue the A. Stop enabling him. This site has plenty of info to get you thru this. Even the Harley's will begrudging accept that not all M's can be saved. You can change your behavior, if your spouse never changes, do you want to continue living that way?

First of all, 2 years is not yet an LTA, IMO. It is the typical length of an entangled affair according to SAA.

For illustrations of how duplicitous actions can also be, read the following thread with an eye to how normal everything can seem in a real LTA:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post2690262

I suspect your H’s A was going to become an LTA by the way he acts. My FWW acted very similar after D-Day 1 of her VLTA. It went further underground for another 5 years, and I was checking on her for the first year, too!

IMO, WS in an LTA do indeed eventually become who they really are. It's more than compartmentalization. It's business as usual for them. This needs to be taken into account by any BS considering reconciliation. Extraordinary measures will be required.

With prayers,

cc1:

In response to this:


YEP. I did that. Truly split personality. My taker was enjoying itself big time. Conpartmentalization was my middle name.

Was the OW someone I worked with? Yes, she was a part-timer and having her own marital issues, and she was perfect as a OW, she didn't want to get caught either and she put up with all the silliness that an A entails. Was I right? No. Am I proud of myself? No. Do I regret the pain I caused? Yes. Was I in the FOG? Yes

Did my wife suspect? She says she did about 1.5 years before D-day. She never brought it up and I certainly wasn't talking. Concrete proof? I do not believe she had any, but it would have been easy to find out. (note to the gentle reader, if you suspect, dig, usually just a little and you will find out)

How did my BS react? If it had been D-day 5 days earlier, it would have been nuclear warfare. But, we found MB website three days before d-day. She was reading about EN's and I was reading about A's. And then I read about EN's. Now, we are both professionals, and I think educated, but what we leaned here blew us away.

Given the EN and HNHN info here, when d-day came, (the OW called my BS), we had a vocabulary that we never had before and we started talking. I answered any questions she had about the A (all the gory details!, plus!) Still do. These conversations led us to truly discuss the state of our M. She didn't choose an A, I did, but some of the reasons I had one were rooted early in our relationship. We started to address them.

And I Stopped the Unfair as some call it, that day. The OW initiated further contact, and my BS answered the phone the last time, (Thank God for caller ID!) (Please note, caller ID can get you proof quick!) and told the OW that she would disclose to the OW 18 Year old Son in very graphic detail how his mother was having SF with me. I never heard from OW again.

Was it hard? Yes, extremely so. Did we work on a lot of issues? OMG! Yes! Would I go back to the pre-D-Day M? No. Would I go back to the Pre-A M? No.


So, back to you:
Quote:
"The last couple of months since he moved back, it has been very difficult to plan A as he kept getting caught every couple of weeks and I would blow a gasket because of the duping."

Plan B. Plan A is not working and he is still seeing the OW. Blowing a gasket is serving him, not you.

Quote:
"I kept thinking he would wake up and see what a dumb bag of rocks she really is. I have directed any of my friends and family who asks what she looks like to OW's myspace page."

Who cares? Plan B. Let him live that if he wants it. Your safe, you keep saying yes. So, off he goes. And he has to live with that.

"Dumb bag of Rocks" HNHN points out that she just might be giving him the 1-2 things he needs. Whatever they are. Once he realizes that he is not getting the other 3-4 things that he needs from you, and the OW is incapable of it, he might come back. And then you are in control.

Is this a 2x4? Yes. Bt your WH Needs the 2x4 of you actually Plan B'ing him to realize what he has lost.

IMO, WS in an LTA do indeed eventually become who they really are. It's more than compartmentalization. It's business as usual for them. This needs to be taken into account by any BS considering reconciliation. Extraordinary measures will be required.
Extraordinary measures will be required.


Can you expound on the extraordinary measures part? Also, since it is business as usual, wouldn't that make Plan A useless, MB principles useless, and therefore Plan B as well? I am confused because this means that no matter what I do, he is predisposed to living a dual life under the guise that it is OK to do so. He would then refuse to see the wrongness in his actions and I would be setting myself up for either a continuation of the affair or him starting a new one.

Did either of your spouses admit their wrong doing? If so, how were they able to see it for what it really is and not repeat their behavior?

“Can you expound on the extraordinary measures part?”

WS changes jobs.
Relocate far away from OP.
Nuclear exposure, even if the LTA appears to be over.
Confront OP, with backup.
The darkest Plan B ever.
Radical accountability and transparency.
Retrouvaille.
MB Weekend.
MC (or MB trained marriage coach).
IC for WS
Genuine proactive atonement from WS.

These are all recommended to one degree or another for garden variety adultery; but, for an LTA they must come in spades. They are not just recommended, they are mandatory and used in full measure, filled right to the brim.

Radical accountability and transparency means proactive transparency. Not just making email available, for example, but allowing BS real time access to all accounts. Explaining whereabouts without BS having to ask. Might mean GPS on WS vehicles, permanently. Might mean no separate cell phone, ever.

If WS (or the BS, for that matter) of an LTA will not make these kinds of extraordinary changes in not only lifestyle but internal thinking processes, they are still holding out.

If WS will not do whatever it takes, for as long as it takes, they are not going to succeed. Period.

We are talking personality changes, not just behavior changes. And how often does that kind of change succeed with 90% measures?

Nuclear exposure means tell the world, no matter what. I'll bet certain other people already know anyway. The LTA has been through several cycles of up and down by the time you find out. They have broken up and reunited several times. They have fought, made up, and long ago achieved a meeting of the minds and a more or less husband and wife arraignment right along with you in teh middle. This is no longer the transient bubble of a fantasy. This is real life for them. It’s the way the adulterers live, and they have done so for years and years.

They need to publicly divorce as much as if they were actually married.

This is one of the things I see misunderstood about LTAs around here. They are not just really long affairs. They have become genuine attachment. They are almost impossible to end. You, the spouse, may be more the affair partner than the LTA OP is by the time you find out.

When a person does just about anything long enough, for years and years, it is no longer an aberration. It is part of their personality. They rarely think twice about it. An LTA is no longer just some wandering spouse having an affair. It is a well-integrated personal lifestyle.


“Also, since it is business as usual, wouldn't that make Plan A useless, MB principles useless, and therefore Plan B as well?”

It does IMO make Plan A pretty much redundant. Like me, you were probably pretty good at meeting WS ENs all along. Otherwise they would have left. Unmet needs are not much of a factor in LTAs. It is something broken in the WS. A personality issue you cannot fix. A cake eating entitlement that is a driving part of their basic personality.

Plan B, OTOH, is still effective. Cut WS off from the ENs you are meeting. No more cake. Radical very dark, take the kids and all the money and kick WS out with nothing Plan B. Go for the throat legal separation Plan B.

But, do the Plan B letter by the book. Their WS brains need to have it spelled out exactly how they can come home.

Then, MB methods during and after recovery help produce a stable marriage.

“Did either of your spouses admit their wrong doing? If so, how were they able to see it for what it really is and not repeat their behavior?”

Yes and no. FWW did indeed admit she was wrong and cried genuine tears, saying how truly sorry she was. She said it to me, in front of MC, to family and to friends. Several times. All while staying in the affair for another five years.

IMO, you cannot believe a thing they say. Perhaps not for as long as the LTA lasted.

There is lots more I could write, but this is getting too long.

Let me end by noting that the BS of an LTA must deal with so many years of illusion the LTA may seem more real than the M. I actually felt I was the interloper; that I was the OP, for the longest time. I still feel that way at times.

Four things kept me around just long enough to start recovery:

1. DS
2. Roman Catholic teachings on marriage, divorce and (lack of) remarriage.
3. Confronted OM and he took off for the hills. FWW discovering he played her for an entire decade (he even had other A's during the LTA) helped me cope.
4. Loving detachment. Hard to learn though.

Well, there is a fifth thing: recovery can come in manageable chucks of time. Commit to six months at a time, and know you do not have to finally decide anything for at least as long as the LTA lasted.

With prayers,