This post is partly a reaction to a couple of other threads here, and partly a reaction to my own current circumstances.

I grew up being taught that you shouldn't "date" someone unless you believed that that person was a potential marriage partner. This instruction was based on two principles:

#1 - "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers." (II Corinthians 6:14) While in the context of my upbringing this principle was simply applied as "Don't marry - and therefore don't date - non-Christians," I believe the principle could be given broader application: don't date someone whose goals and/or values are incompatible with your own.

#2 - You might fall in love with the person you date, and thus be enticed to marry them despite principle #1, or at least be put through a lot of pain if you do choose to adhere to principle #1. Not to mention that the time you are spending with this person whom you shouldn't marry could cost you an opportunity with someone who is an appropriate match.

About a year ago, I read Henry Cloud's book How to Get a Date Worth Keeping, and found it very thought-provoking. While Cloud agrees that a Christian shouldn't marry a non-Christian, he sees no problem with Christians dating non-Christians. Rather, he encourages dating widely. He believes that in so doing you will learn more about yourself and the kind of person who would be a good match for you. He gets around principle #2 by essentially rejecting it: his position seems to be that a mature person will be wise enough not to fall into that trap.

It sounds good in theory, although I couldn't help noticing that his book is littered with examples of people to whom he gave this advice and who then did fall into that trap. It makes me wonder about the practicality of the advice.

Personally, I think a "friendship-first" attitude makes the most sense (at least if you can trust yourself to maintain it, which probably varies from person to person). For one thing, in many cases you'll never have the opportunity to learn whether there is a compatibility of goals and values unless you find a way to get to know someone - and in many cases the only means available may be something indistinguishable from a "date."

But anything which resembles a date runs into the problem that people approach "dating" with different aims and presumptions and expectations. Clearly, some (most?) people start out by evaluating a "date" for its romantic possibilities and often its potential for permanence. This approach recognizes the opportunity cost associated with dating (i.e. if I'm dating this person then I'm not dating someone else) but assumes that the basis for such an evaluation is sufficiently understood. (And here I wonder how being previously married might affect us? Are we more likely to know what we want the second time around, or is our history more likely to impose blinders on us?) It may also get in the way of a worthwhile friendship (the reverse side of the problem where putting someone into the friend box gets in the way of recognizing romantic potential).

Personally, I cannot understand the I'll-date-only-one-person-at-a-time mentality, until and unless a relationship has progressed to the point of seriously considering marriage. In many cases, I recognize that it may be an issue of time and effort: it is hard to find time to develop relationships with multiple people simultaneously, and it is also a whole lot easier psychologically to make a date with someone whom you know isn't likely to reject you than it is to keep stepping out into the unknown. But it appears to me that it encourages a "boyfriend-girlfriend" paradigm, which seems more often than not to cause harm.

I don't know, perhaps I am simply over-intellectualizing what boils down to my own emotional uneasiness regarding dating. I haven't really placed myself in a position where it mattered before. But...I reactivated my Match.com subscription not too long ago, and rather to my surprise have found myself corresponding with the third person I "approached." We'll be meeting up this week.

Based on her pictures, she's beautiful. Based on our correspondence, she's interesting. Also based on our correspondence, she's an atheist. Heh.

Based on my lack of experience, I don't really know what I'm getting myself into.

Oh well.

Oh, and she's European. It seems from what limited experience I do have, I have better "luck" with women who are not from the United States - which is to say that I have no luck at all with women who are from the United States.

Gnome,

Interesting topic.



I don't necessarily consider myself mature but I do consider myself wise. Why? Because I fell into the trap the first time. I was raised Catholic, which, unfortunately for many, seems mutually exclusive from a Christian upbringing. (I don't mean to anger anyone, but that was my experience) Being somewhat rebellious when I was younger, I dated someone whose morals and values were not just different, but the polar opposite of mine. I compromised most of what I had been taught to be with him. We married and to make a long story short, it ended disasterously 13 years later.

So, I have learned the hard way the hard way the problems of being with someone whose morals and values greatly differ from mine. I have a better understanding of the problem with being unequally yoked - the stronger one has to suffer for the weaknesses of the other. The weak one is, well, WEAK - he won't be pulled or stretched beyond what he is capable of doing with his own strength.LOL No more missionary dating here...

I believe strongly in the friendship first approach and often wonder how to let the friendship develop naturally rather than in the artificial environment of a "date." And I think seeing other people helps keep a balanced perspective. I think there is a tendency when evaluating someone for romantic possibilities the danger is in turning Mr Wrong into Mr Right and the things that are unacceptable become "workable" because perspective has been distorted.

As far as the European, better read the contents before you get too excited about the cover. JMO

I'm not actually "excited" about this "date" in the sense of hoping for something romantic to develop. For myself, I don't expect that, and in fact one of the reasons I contacted this lady was that her profile was so low-key. She indicated that she was looking for friends and conversation - although if anything more were to happen she wasn't going to complain.

I have quite a few female friends, and by that I don't mean acquaintances. But none of those friendships started out as anything that could be construed as a date, and even though I have taken some of them out to lunch or dinner, we knew each other well enough by then that there was no danger of anyone being confused about what was going on. My experience in the "dating world" is so small as to be negligible, so, given the nature of our culture (however foolish it may be), some practice within that arena seems advisable. I see this as an opportunity to gain such practice, while possibly also gaining a friend who can offer something my other friends cannot. Most of my friends are considerably younger and have not been through the same kinds of experiences I have. (There is an exception, but I've got a crush on her, and we both know that we're not right for each other, so I have to be a little bit careful there.)

However, my intentions and expectations notwithstanding, I also know that my relationship with my ex-wife started out with the two of us assuring each other that we weren't interested in being anything other than friends.

This is precisely what I hope (however naively) to discover, albeit with the use of "dating" as a starting point. I am skeptical about how effectively the dating paradigm can be subverted, but unfortunately I cannot come up with any way to determine this other than to experiment.

GPD (I keep thinking Gross Domestic Product),




I think the objective is to broaden your options without lowering your standards - or maybe that's just mine!

At least in theory, I think the dating paradigm can be avoided simply by being open and honest from the start. My experience has not been so fortunate. There is probably a gender difference regarding expectations. I've encountered the type that interpret friends to mean friends with benefits. I would still like to believe that women are not that brazen but you'll have to keep us posted on your experiences.

Assuming that you get past that hurdle, then there is the age old question of whether or not men and women can be just friends. My experience, with a few exceptions is no. Sooner or later one side develops feelings that the other side doesn't. Then is ends the friendship - it's just too awkward.

I feel like a wet blanket and I don't mean to sound so negative. I'm trying to find the way too.

I can relate to this, as many of my friends are female. And I think that what you say about there being no misunderstanding about the relationship is precisely the problem with the "friends first" approach.

To me, a platonic friendship and a romantic relationship are fundamentally different. If I had "hmm, what if?" thoughts about any of my female friends, we would not likely have the relationships that we do. By definition (I think), courting is different than platonic friendships.

Not to sound shallow, but my female friends would not typically allow me to pay for them - whereas in a courtship, I think that would be the expected arrangement. In time, I would like to think that I would want to hold my date's hand, or have her rest her head on my shoulder at the movies - and see if that feels "right" - whereas I would not expect or want that with my female friends.

I can give more examples, but I think that while the friends first approach is conceptually good, it runs the risk of confusing the fact that friendship and romance are two different things. You need friendship to have a good romantic relationship, but you also need romance.

I have had relationships that started out as good friendships, and unfortunately concluded that we made better friends than lovers.

It's even worse when you dip your toe into the online dating world, because there people seem to have the expectation that if you did not show romantic interest after the first two or three dates, you must not be interested.

Anyway, I don't see how you can test the relationship without having one - and you can't try a friendship as a substitute for a romantic relationship. IOW, I think that you have to take a chance, even if you risk getting your feelings tangled up.

And if the smart, beautiful, European, atheist woman does not pan out, send her my way, she sounds like a great match for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Unless there are romantic feelings/physical chemistry at the beginning of a friendship, I doubt it will develop into more. As AGG pointed out, friendship and romance are two different species. While they can both be incredibly powerful and deep, the romantic relationship between a man and woman is much more complex. There are places you go where you’d never go with a friend. Period.

I dated widely when I was young. I played the field, and to be honest, looking back, I was promiscuous, although I didn’t think so at the time. Some of it I regret, but not a lot. I know what’s out there, the good, the bad and the ugly. I think one reason why I was able to come out of my divorce still loving men is because I dated a lot of nice guys. I just wasn’t ready for a nice guy until now. Good men are challenging. One has to live up to having a good man. Bad boys cause heartache, but don’t require effort.

Also, I became much more practiced at the social skills involved in dating. When I started dating again, I didn’t have some of the worries others had. So, dating lots of different people was great when I was young.

Anyway, I can vouch for it being one thing to fall in and out of love at in your late teens and early twenties, but an entirely different thing when you’re in your forties. I’m not sure I’d risk dating someone with a deal breaker at my age.

As for dating only one person, I found as a single mom working full time outside the home, and being a mother and homemaker, I simply didn’t have time for more than one. It wasn’t an option. However, I didn’t think of the relationship as exclusive.

I hope your date goes well, Gnome.

Hey Gnome, Good On ya Mate....

Enjoy yourself...... That's all....

Later,

Well said. If only there were more that could see it that way...

hcii