12 year relationship 7 year marriage, 2 kids

I am 1 year 1 month from d-day, 2 EA's into it already and far far from recovered.

i started a thread a while back about trust and how trust was the central core of a relationship. i had implicitly trusted my wife for 12 years, i was told by many many people on this site that that was foolish to start with.
people basically cannot be trusted.

Well discovering where i really stood with my wife crushed me from the inside out, we are in recovery and seeing a MC who by the way also says that trust is foolish. blah blah blah.

This has never made sense to me and i don't really want to debate it all over again, but frankly if you cannot trust how can you be married to someone, i mean for what purpose would you marry? If you beleive in marriage you must beleive in trust.

Anyways as i said in my old thread 3 4-5 months ago, its impossible to lock someone down completly. in fact when my wife tried her first EA cheat on me she was a stay at home mom and got the room for it by lying about where she was going. In the second EA she wasn't going out or anything and did a whole email thing to get her fling and used a family travel emergency as cover. Anyways. as i was told by everyone under the sun i was a compolete idiot for trusting someone to chit chat with an old boyfriend or have a male frind by email.

But here we are 5 months after our beginning recorvery and my wife is at school for 9 weeks with her girl friend who was helping cover her [censored] so she scould cheat on me with the second EA. She is starting a business with this woman and will be away from me daily now. She is going out of town for 3 days with this woman also for a industry convention for thier business.

Now someone please tell me how i can do anything but HAVE to trust her. There is nothing she can do or say while away that will make me have more or less trust in what she is doing. I have already seen the depths to which she will go to lie to get what she wants. So where do i have to go but trust.

She has still not come completely clean with me about our past either, just the usual stuff admittied to once i dredge it up using CSI marriage police techniques which make me sick to my stomach to have to do. She is lying to me about the involvement of her friends and thier intentions towards me and our marriage. So i have plenty of evidence of her simply wishing to cover up and make this whoile nast thing disappear like it did last time. Things quite down and whammo she is off again on another EA.

I know its coming, i have told her i know its coming and i can even reasonably guess where its coming from (work)

But in the end the only way i can ever trust her again is to let her be trusted and give her the chance to prove she is worthy of it.

I still firmly beleive that without trust there is not only no marriage but no relationship.

we are in recovery though, but basically becasues i am done freaking out and have stopped pushing and probing and just let stuff be so we can have peace and quite in our house.

Sort of a stalemate i guess. Once i stopped pushing the information stopped and the spontaneous truth never came really. She is just letting it slide away into obscurity.
She never brings it up ever.

errr.. I'm no expert.. but that sure doesnt sound like "recovery" to me.
sounds more like just a "cease-fire".

I agree that at least some level of trust is needed for a really great relationship, but I don't think you need trust right now for recovery to take place.

Honesty, on the other hand, is indispensible for both recovery and a great marriage. The level of trust will eventually increase as one's honesty is proven again and again over time.

I agree with Techie; you've got some unresolved problems in your relationship that may only get worse.

well we hashed alot out and she swears all the big stuff is out there truth wise, but i have found tidbits of stuff here and there. i guess at some popint i have to let things lie and work on us, we had months and months of fights over this. i am trying to let it sit and not press for more and let her do it on her own. I know she probably won't though.

i say the big stuff is all in the open but i have in fact uncovered rather large stuff since our recovery and i see her giving me a snow job about what her friends have had to say. But she is not being actively dishonest at the moment and is trying hard to mend what has been broken so i am giving her space to breath.

So actually you have neither trust nor honesty and it seems you are just trying to get to the point where she can start being honest by eliminating the arguments, etc.

"so i am giving her space to breath."

Fair enough. It's a good idea to let things calm down between you, I think. That comes right out of the MB stuff on
Guidelines for successful negotiation


Just DONT think that you are "in recovery".

vercing,

Let me break down how I see this trust issue and perhaps we can discuss. When Harley and others say that "blind" trust is bad for a marriage, they are not kidding. But, part of the normal "blind" trust is that "I can do what I want and she will love me and be faithful because we are married."

I think you, I or anyone who has been to this site or ones like it, would find this statement just wrong. Further, the belief that "my spouse would not cheat, or I would not cheat" is not something to be trusted either. I could point you to a lot of WS's on this site that thought they would "Never cheat" but they did because they had "blind" trust in themselves, and they did not take actions to protect themselves and their marriage.

That is what is called blind trust, and it is that trust that people are primarily talking about.

Now, let's discuss trust. I my mind trust it the ability to predict the future. It is the ability to use a persons past actions, their beliefs, and their statements to predict what they will do in the future under many circumstances. The more recent past being more heavily weighed than the distant past.

In your case you have NO REASON to trust your wife. Given her friendships, given her lack of honesty, and given her two affairs, you have no basis for this. Further, her chosen life outside of the marriage ie: her friends, and job, are not going to engender any trust are they?

This site is about rebuilding marriage, but not rebuilding at all costs. It is about giving the marriage a good chance to recover from past behavior even affairs. However, it takes two people to do it in the end.

You are going to have to ask yourself, IF YOU want to continue to live the way you are. It has been over a year and your description of your W indicates little effort. You have two children which you clearly are capable of taking care of when she is gone for 9 weeks at a time. You have a W that is not honest, nor has she done a decent job of restoring the marriage.

You have given this marriage a good chance. You are now in a position where you KNOW you have given it a good chance. You are in a position where you have learned a great deal about marriages and relationships. You are in a position where you know YOU can take care of the kids. You are in a position that continues to hurt you and rob you of the happiness that marriage can bring. You are NOW in a position to start making some decisions about YOUR future.

You do NEED to be able to trust your W. You are right you cannot be with her all of the time. Her job seems to take her away from the family a good deal, if you cannot trust, then you will suffer continually. You are going to have to evaluate the data and decidee what it will take for you to trust her, what she could do when she travels to support your trust, what she can do to make you feel loved and respected. If it cannot be done... You have decisions to make.

Think about this, I look forward to your response.

God Bless,

JL

vercingetorix6 - Not universally true. There are marriages that are not built on love and trust.

But I understand, and personally believe as you do, what you were saying. To have a marriage of equals, who love each other, there MUST be trust of, and in, each other.

JL gave a very good synopsis of the "trust" issues, so I'll not restate them.

One thing to keep in mind as you rebuild trust is that you CHOOSE to trust. The choice to trust is based, in large measure, on a spouse (or anyone for that matter) earning the trust based upon their actions, not their words. Some are easy to attain, and some, especially affair person related ones, are the last to achieve, because it takes years of consistant behavior to "prove" the words.

God bless.

I think she is making some efforts, but i definatly feel we just dropped the whole honesty thing and she won't bring it up unless i force it. That frankly bothers me, but i don't want to press.

I guess the real problem at this point is not her but me, i have complletly lost all faith and reverence for the union of marriage. My own path through this madness led into my own affair in a vain attempt to escape the pain in my life and all i did was throw away the one thing noone could take from me, my self respect.

Now i don't really beleive in myself anymore nor do i beleive in marriage or love anymore.

Not really sure where to go from here, but we have kids who need their parents together. But frankly all the joy i had in my marriage is gone, stolen away from under me as if by a thief in the night.

Not really anyway to feel good about that.

vercingetorex6 - Okay, the following comments will include some "2x4" things. They are not meant to "kick you when you are down," but are meant to be more like a "splash of cold water" to get your attention and hopefully settle you down a little so you can start thinking rationally again.

I have not read any mention of a religious belief in your postings, so I'll refrain from "spiritual" advice unless you request it.

If you'd prefer not to hear some "hard things" right now, just skip the rest of the post until such time as you might want to read them.




Sounds like an excuse to have your own affair if I've ever heard one. You are blaming the "problems" on the state of your marriage. What you are projecting is your lack of trust in your wife and HER choices and actions that have nothing to do with marriage in general and that everything to do with your own marriage.



Then it's safe to say that "your path" IS the wrong path, not "may be" the wrong path. If you want your self-respect back, you have to start to "Man Up" for your own choices and actions and not try to deflect them onto someone else or any situation you are faced with. You are "blaming" instead of doing the "self-respecting" thing of taking full responsibility for your choices....no one MADE you do anything.

Since you have been registered on MB for almost a year, I assume you already have read extensively here and KNOW that a "revenge affair" is not the answer. It adds to, and further complicates, efforts to recover a marriage. By the way, does your wife know you had your own affair?

So now both your and your wife are faced with the issue of Forgiveness of each other for the most hurtful action a spouse can take against their spouse. Do either of you have a concept of what Forgiveness IS and what it entails as promises you make to the one being forgiven?



Of course you don't. That justifies any action you might want to take. Obviously your wife didn't believe in any of that "marriage stuff," and now you've decided to get into the same boat with her.

Is that where you want to stay, or might you want to begin to face the really tough things in life, first by yourself and then in concert with your wife?




Why? If you don't believe in love or marriage, what sort of "good model" will you be for your children? "Staying together for the kids" when neither one of you believes in love, let alone the sanctity of marriage, is some "for the kids" it would seem? Just how long do the two of you think you can lie to the kids and how long before they begin to see through the lies and learn the real message you would be teaching them?

When you get through with the, if you'll pardon the expression, "pity party," consider rolling up your sleeves for the HARD WORK that will take years before achieving the good marriage you seem to want. Without the work, and just with wishful thinking, it is highly unlikely that you'll ever "get what you wish for."

Do you want to start, or do you need a little more time to wallow around before you realize that is not getting you anywhere? If I was wrong about your relationship with God, please correct me. If not, what "outside of yourself" help (other than religious) do you really think you need IF your objective is to stay married "for the kids" and to actually have a loving marriage with your wife?

I think working with, starting a businness with and hanging out with a girlfriend that was used a cover for her sexual affair that put you at risk for STD's is a huge slap in the face to you. This has been her second affair that you know of. What has been the consequences to her affairs? Where are her boundaries.

For gosh sakes think about if the roles were reversed. You just completed a second affair on your wife and you tell her you are going away for a few days with a good male friend who covered for you during your affair and you plan to set up a bussiness with him? Do you think your wife would put up with such humiliation and disrespect from you?My guess is that your wife sees you as a doormat and feels that she can get away with this affairs because there are no true consequences to her actions. You feel it is a matter of times before she continues in another affair. What is the point of being in a marriage like this? The very least your wife should have done is showe remorse and certainly cut off the friendship with this woman. The fact that she continues to hang out with her and plans to start a business with her shows how little your wife respects you and your feellings. Why do you accept this? If you do not respect yourself then who will?

yes my wife knows about my affair i admitted it shortly after. And for all the talk about revenge afairs it did help me calm down enough to get on with things. But it was a huge mistake i wish i could take back.


i am not making excuses to allow my self an affair, i am just being honest with how i feel about marriage. i wiash i had never married anyone. Now i feel like slapping people who plan to marry and warning them like they are gonna try smoking crack.

i am 40 and have spent 20 years of my life faithful to 2 women (2 marriages) who both disrespected me and spit my family commitment back in my face. i look around and all i see is ****** and cheaters and frankly the word marriage sticks in my throat like a curse.

Its not an excuse, its just a realization.

The wife has to do the business, we can't walk away from a 30k investment. I was just illustrating how trust is necessary in a marriage, no matter what anyone says about it, dumb or not, one has to trust becasues you cannot watch them at all time.

And what do you do when the trust was the basis of the marriage when its gone?

its not a pity party just a realization of where you always end up when you give out your heart. No matter how good you are, no matter how hard you try, no matter how high you hold the image of your spouse and adore them you get spit on in the end. How does that help my view of marriage?

i am working on my marriage, i havem't run from my troubles, but working on things is not making me feel any better. I'm tired of the depression and anger and resentment. And for what so that the next time i am not perfect i can have all i am and do pissed away with selfish actions that will destroy my family.

please please please tell me how to pull faith in marriage out of that.


sorry for the rant

vt6 - no apology is necessary, we've all been there and know the frustration, fear, and helplessness that you are feeling. When emotions are in control, it is very hard to think, much less act, logically and rationally.

Working backwards.....




It's not faith in marriage that you have a problem with, it's your wife, both current and ex. I'm sure you know of marriages where infidelity has not been a problem. In those marriages, as in yours, mine, all of them, it is the PEOPLE in the marriage that "makes the marriage."

So your issue is not, per se, with marriage, it is with people and THEIR personal Standards.

Therefore, a starting point is to discuss and establish just what Standards will be used. Add to that the "safeguards" that MB talks about to help in all areas of "need" for each of you.

Right now, I'd say that your "Love Bank," and probably your wife's also, is running in the [color:"red"] red [/color]. If you agree, then the first "order of business" is to begin taking steps to refill each other's "Love Bank." Let's get it back to the black and begin to let it refill back to where there is enough in the account to trigger the automatic "I'm in love with you" feelings that come from a well-stocked "Love Bank." All of this is going to take time, possibly a lot of time. But NONE of it will happen without a commitment to honestly try, to be patient, to endure the ups and downs of recovery, and to seriously consider each other's Emotional Needs first. It starts with a single step, a single DAY, repeated each day for as many days as it takes.

And you CAN "vent" here from time to time when you feel overwhelmed. But that should be the "exception." What you need to focus on is the positive, not the negative.




Okay, so HOW are you "working on my marriage?" Obviously you consider your own affair to have been a mistake and not working on your marriage, so what are you doing NOW?

What I hear is a focus on "Feelings." If that is what drives you, then don't waste your time on recovery. Feelings come LAST in the process and are a RESULT of all the hard work, not a precursor to it or a "yardstick" for "immediate return on investment."




You may call it a "realization," but it still sounds very much like a "pity party" based in very hurt emotions. One thing that keeps coming through is your constant reference to "I," and not to Us and We. YOU are RIGHT, YOU can do everything you can think of to "behave" as you think a loving husband should behave, but unless you know those things have meaning to your wife, they may not result in what you want. You have to KNOW your wife, what HER needs are, how SHE wants to be shown love, etc. You need to be working together, and you need to be able to talk to her and with her...hearing her. Likewise, she needs to KNOW you too.




You rebuild the trust, or you choose to live your life in fear.



Ya, well, I have similar feelings from time to time when I talk with people about their living their lives without a relationship with Jesus. It's a normal feeling based in your own experience. But you can't be responsible for other people's choices. You are only responsible for your own choices. Suffice it to say, there are many marriages where infidelity does not become a part of the "history."

Perhaps if you think of it this way it might help: no matter how many times life knocks you down, a winner gets up and keeps on trying. Yes, that's a little trite given the real devastation of adultery, but the idea is that "getting up" is NOT always easy, but it beats the alternative.




Good! And what was her reaction and how does SHE feel about it, and about you as a result of it?

"has to"?

no such thing.


if your marriage would be significantly better without doing the business thing... and both you and your wife agree that you're "just doing it becuase of the $30k, but it will hurt your relationship"....

then call it a $30k "investment" in your marriage, and drop it. write it off as a business loss.
(talk to a tax advisor..you may be able to get *some* amount of money back. but if you dont... well, it's time for you to decide what your real priorities are)