We have had some arguments recently. I am getting better at biting my tongue and walking away when she goes into a tirade, but still have a lot of work to do. My W knows that she can get me to "fight back" and she's very good at manipulating this in me (I'm serious about this. I think she'd be an incredible trial attorney because of this skill!). But because I've gotten better about walking away, rather than taking up the fight, she has started some different behaviors.

During a recent attempt to start a argument with me my W was incensed. She started into a tirade, but I didn't bite. When I didn't argue back she went and got our son from his room where he was playing and decided to go shopping. He didn't want to go shopping.

How does one stop this kind of behavior? I'm OK with her trying to raise an argument, but not "using" our child. (when I say I'm OK with her trying to argue it is because I am the one trying to change our current behavior. she is not yet "on board" and has not chosen to view this site or go to counseling or tried to have a grown-up conversation without yelling - but WE will get there.)

LOL,

You should be more concerned with how much money she spent to get even with you for walking away than her taking your son with her.

I don't agree with the "walk-away" advice people give here.

First of all, why can't you stay and communicate? Why do you see it as having to fight back?

Why would you let it shut you down? What part of it bothers you? The loudness of it? Does she yell?

Do you get defensive and interrupt her trying to explain yourself?

You said she manipulates you into fighting back? That's a load of nonsense. When your wife goes on a tirade about things that ruined her day (even if you are one of them) all she wants is some sympathy and maybe a hug and an "I love you"-- NOT A FIGHT!

When you show disapproval by flight ("I'll come back when you are in control of yourself") or by telling her to "take it easy," it only makes things worse, which brings me to the corollary: work on yourself, not on your spouse.

Three counselors disagree completely with you Pieta. They have seen the tirades. All 3 recommended that when they begin that I simply walk away. I used to stay and try the "I love you". I used to stay and talk in a very quiet voice, which supposedly causes the other person to have to stop yelling. I used to stay and try to "echo". But each of these failed to stop the anger outburst issues. The last counselor tried to get her into anger management meetings. She wouldn't go.

I am fortunate that these angry outbursts occur only with me and not with anybody else. They don't happen at work, or with her family, friends, or anybody else. So the counselors have all stated that the problem started when I allowed it to start. I became the "whipping boy"; an outlet for all of her frustrations. If she can talk civily to others, she should be able to do so with me. So when it starts, I walk away. Since this appears to be working she has chosen to begin to "use" our son by taking him with her.

I'm sorry that you chose to make a judgement here about me, rather than address the question that I asked. I'm sorry also that you chose to make a joke of the situation about how much money versus being concerned about using a child in an argument. If I weren't so down and frustrated with this I might have a better sense of humor about it. I have continued to work on myself, and will keep doing so. I want my son to see his parents resolve a situation civily rather than use people as a pawn.

So I am back to my question. How does one stop a spouse from involving a child in a disagreement?

Sivle,

My thought is you cannot control your spouse...can't stop them from involving your child in a disagreement...that would be reality for me.

Two things, though...why do you call it a disagreement? You say she launches, you walk away...that's not a disagreement...that's her AOing and you removing yourself...why not remove your son when she does this?

I was an AO'er...I think I shared that with you before...and what wasn't there for me was progressive boundary enforcements...first, you speak, "I hear you yelling at me."

If she continues..."I am removing myself until you stop yelling. I'll be back in twenty minutes when I've calmed down. I feel pain when you yell."

Make sure you are back in the time you specify. Yelling starts up or continues, you go to your third enforcement..."Yelling is abuse. Stop. I will be back in four hours (or the next day at a certain time)."

I didn't see a judgment about you from pieta...what I remember is that walking away triggered my main reason for AOing...being withdrawn from, which felt full of rejection and a judgment on me. Escalated the cycle. And this was from not knowing when or if whoever withdrew from me would return, hence the time assignment and follow through.

I also heard pieta's sideways question in what other retaliatory behaviors does your W do? These aren't judgments, just more info to understand what punishments W does to get you to stop hurting her.

Even if you aren't. See, my AOs were from not being responded to...my DH was silent, which was like my sister growing up...very effective. No response meant I didn't exist...the louder I got, the more provocative I got, the more response I could get...until I couldn't, of course.

Complicated dances...from what seems simple steps. Here's what helped me to change...to know it was abuse, as were my DJs...then, to change for myself, not who I was, choosing not to act that way...and the safer I got to talk to, the more my DH talked...and the more he talked, the less I felt I had to drag anything out of him...why I always recommend O&H statements about what you're thinking, feeling and believing...sharing statements. The echo you mentioned...listen and repeat? That was a huge factor in us getting to a thriving marriage...my goal in doing so wasn't to get him to stop withdrawing...it was to get me to understand that what I was so reactive to, escalated from, wasn't even real...I misheard my DH many times and reacted automatically...assumptions (DJs) were my bread and butter. I expected rejection and heard it almost everywhere...wasn't really there...at times, though, DH would use it, say exactly the opposite of what he meant and then, after we both got safe, he heard HIMSELF and rephrased.

Turns out his frustration with himself was a big part of his own reactive permissions...all part of the dance...

When you said your approach has started working...what do you mean?

LA

LA,

Thank you so much. This is some great insight. My W has stated that she gets angry when I don't argue with her. I was raised in a home where there was ZERO open conflict between my parents. So I never saw how to resolve a conflict since I never saw them have one. So I find the AO situation to be foreign. I love to debate, and enjoy the conversation part of a debate. But I hate, hate, hate the AO.

My comment regarding the "approach working" related only to the fact that my walking away is effective in stopping the AO at that moment. If I'm not there, she can't yell at me. And I do state things like, "OK. Please don't yell. This is getting out of hand. I'll talk to you when you can calm down." This will usually result in an ugly comment about being spineless, or afraid she is winning the argument, or a coward. I don't respond at all to the nasty comments anymore as I know they are just used to try to provoke me.

I've tried to find out why she wants, what I feel to be, a fight. I've even tried to get this out in our MC sessions, back when she was going. She didn't give a reason. I do know that she has a sister who uses the same exact behavior. Yet I don't recall ever seeing their parents argue this way; although, I became a part of the family years after her father had quit drinking.

I'm certain there is something that I do that makes her want to lash out and take something to the point of screaming. I have changed a number of my behaviors to try to get it to stop since she won't tell me (one counselor said she may not know and I may just be the "safe" outlet for all of her pent up frustrations).

Again, my current concern has more to do with using a child as pawn. Yes, it is a symptom of the root problem that needs fixed. But sometimes you have to cut the fever before you fight the infection.

Great to know that you speak...do you tell her when you're coming back to resume?

If she calls you spineless, use the "Stop. That's abusive." Call it what it truly is...when she defines you, that's abusive. And it is...and taking your son on a walk or a drive when she does this is boundary enforcement for you and your child...can you see that? Not punishment...boundaries around you, enforced. Call abuse by it's name...no DJ as to why she chooses to abuse through name calling...not provocation...though it may feel provocative. That's taking reality in both hands...knowing it's texture. It isn't you telling her she's wrong or bad...it's naming what is abusive.

Ahhh...the love of debate. Do you find it wakes up your mind, gives you little doses of admiration, appreciation, acceptance when you do this people who do not AO or DJ? How great are you at agreeing to disagree...dishing back a lot of doses of admiration, appreciation and acknowledgement?

There is the other side to boundary enforcements...for living in truth. That is stating your truth not during a discussion...more like a drive by...if you have a positive thought...you state it...while doing something else...looking in the fridge, "I thought of you today and I pictured the way your hair looked. Do we have any cheese sticks?"

"Did Goodwill come for the pickup today? I felt moved when you picked up DS when he was crying today."

Insert your truth as "I" statements, too...because if you are mostly or only defending your boundaries, you aren't communicating all your truth, are you?

I think your love of debate actually got you half the way here...because winning/losing, being right rather than married, may have been the attractive dance you both did...until it turns ugly...what do you think?

See, when you change the dance, the dance changes...and if you continue with what laid the ground work for challenging discussions, winning and losing...well, that's easily confused as permission to continue, isn't it?

About the whys...if she won't say, you won't know. Neither of you had healthy communication models...for conflict or for acceptance of what you believe and what she believes differing...where it adds to the marriage instead of increases fear of not seeing something the same way, believing the same way.

Communication exercises? O&H driveby statements...lots of non-verbal communication with a touch on your way to and from a room...any time you pass...smiling (visual affection)...these really express your choice to love and act on it...authentically...not to get her to stop abusing you...but to be who you really are now that you are reacting to her abuse, but enforcing boundaries.

How did taking your son when you remove yourself from abuse sound to you?

LA