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McBecca Offline OP
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where does one start??

BS does not want to come to this website (no time he says). He is doing all the things said NOT to be doing according to Steve Harley's Basic Principals and he also says he does not feel we can even BEGIN to recover until there is some trust!! So what do I do? where do I start?

I have assumed the role of doormat, I know it isn't healthy and will bite me in the a$$ later but right now I feel like everything I Say, can and WILL be used against me. So instead I say nothing. Ocassionally we have a moment when some conversation takes place but it leads back to "this is all your doing...." any doubts, any concerns I bring up and I am told "well... that you should have thought about it before the A" etc....

So what is a WW suppose to do? He says he wants to stay married.

I want to move forward or at least START to move forward. But I don't know how when I don't even know what the next step should be!

Is there a WW forum?? there should be one! at least for those of us who want to help fix the mess we've created!

B


WW (me) 36 BH 37 Married 16 yrs 3 children, 12DD, 4DD, 7 mths DD (OC) D-day 8/05 2nd D-day 10/05 *OC* 3rd D-day 6/08/06 DD *OC* born ~~ If I had known then what I know now ~~
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Hi McBecca-
there are lots of FWW here that can help.

Where to start?

1- no contact with OM

2- tell your husband that you are sorry

3- answer all his questions truthfully

4- be transparent and worthy of his trust

5- wait (time and patience)

Don't be a doormat, but do be willing to take responsibility for your part of the "mess".

I suggest that you limit your conversations about your marriage to once a week- that way you will have time to address the issues that are still bothering your husband, but there will be a limit. If every conversation is about your affair, you'll start to withdraw from him and that will be counterproductive. Try to engage him in conversations about neutral topics for the rest of the week.

I hope this helps.


Me: 45
Him: 47
married 23 years
Two wonderful sons
D-day for my EA: 8/15/04
D-day for his PAs: 8/16/06

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First of all I am a BH. But I want to commend you on taking responsibility for what you did and making the effort to save your marriage. There are so many of us that never got that chance or when we did we no longer wanted any part of it. Understand that your husband has been hurt beyond your comprehension. I cannot share with you the pain that he has inside him (along w/ anger, bad self esteem, resentment, feelings of failure, poor confidence and many others) right now. You have to accept this as true. It sounds as if you are trying. This is going to take a lot of hard work and time to make right and even then it will never be the same. It can be great but never the same. The innocence, the blind trust, the belief that the one person you love more than anyone else would never seek to harm you is gone. This is so hard to come to grips with.

Will your BH talk with Steve Harley in an individual phone counseling session? Will he read any of Harley's books? Him saying that he wants to stay married is cause for hope that he still loves you. At some point he and you are going to need professional help to work through his anger, pain, mistrust, and much more. It will get worse before it gets better in all liklihood.

Have you tried telling him that you love him that you are not sure why you did what you did but that you want to learn so that it can never happen again. That you know that the two of you can overcome this and have a stronger marriage for having gone through this terrible trial (own the Affair when you tell him this). He needs to understand that being married and miserable (likely on both sides) is no way to carry on. There is another option. It is be married and happy and joyous together. Learn to love one another again, to meet each other's needs with new found knowldege of how to do so, to grow stronger together by overcoming, to re-build trust, and more.

Can you get him to speak or email other BH's who have overcome and have new and wonderful marriages. It doesn't mean you forget about the A but it means that you learn and grow from it and make something new and different.

I wish you God's help in this matter and that your BH will begin to heal and allow you the chance to show him what you've learned and are willing to do to have this new and great marriage you both deserve.

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McBecca,

A WW forum...er, I think you mean FWW forum would not necessary be a good idea. I saw your posts earlier on Heartsore's thread; and, yes I think you are still quite a bit foggy. It's OK to be that. You are processing this stuff. Mrs. W will acknowledge it ALWAYS takes time (a year or two) to get this stuff. Each step is important along the way. The fog doesn't disappear with a snap of the fingers...you must find a way out YOURSELF. Anyway, the danger with a FWW/FWS forum is the foggy leading the foggy. A fully repentent, fully fog-free FWW has no trouble posting on MB GQII or anywhere else. Mrs. W is one and there are others. Sure there is some sensitivity that a FWS needs to be careful of when posting. Some BS's are very new here and their pain is current, substantial and fresh. However, generally MOST posting advice are beyond their own pain and posting with a legitimate desire to assist you AND your marriage. It's gonna be tough at times. You are going to have to trust us and consider the advice as being well intentioned even when it just doesn't seem that way at the time. Believe me, a year from now you will go back and read it and be amazed at what you said and were thinking. It's a journey.

On to YOU. Above you claim that "everything I say, can and WILL be used against me...so instead I say nothing". Just maybe "trust" has to start on your end. What reason do you REALLY TRULY have to not trust your husband's stated position...that he wants to save the marriage. In the end, IMO, this IS eventually going to be harder for you than him. Many here disagree...but I personally think, in the long run, it's harder to be the WS than the BS. Why? Cause eventually the BS gets over it and puts it behind them but a WS will forever have been the wayward one, forever carry the actual gruesome memories with all the details, the one that hurt their loving BS and THEMSELVES and the one ultimately responsible for diligently protecting their own self from failing themselves and their family again.

Anyway, here is a link. It's a current thread on GQII so maybe you've already read it but I think it's a start for you.

[color:"blue"] Rebuilding Trust [/color]

Mr. Wondering


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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McB,

You should NOT be a doormat, but you should receptive to the idea that he has had to deal with a great deal, and most of it caused by your decisions. Now you asked what you can do.

First the WW is not solely responsible for the recovery of the marriage, it takes more than your H saying he wants to stay married.

My suggestion is that you sit him down and have a talk. YOU lead the discussion and it should go something like this.

First, H I understand you don't trust me, I will work on that.

Second, if you want to remain married to me, it means we both need to be happy in this marriage, and if not deliriously happy...satisfied. To do that I need to know what you need and expect to make this marriage worthwhile to you. You need to know what I need and expect to make this marriage worthwhile to me.

Third, after we understand one another with regard to our dreams and hopes for this marriage as well as our needs, we need to sit down and make a plan to go about achieving our goals.

Fourth, you need to understand that I have some small understanding of the pain you are in and have been in. I also understand that while I inflicted the pain, only YOU can heal from it. That doesn't mean I can do nothing, but I do need to know from you what would make you feel better and how I can help.

McB, such a conversation can only take place AFTER you have look inside you and answered many of these questions yourself. But, as you are willing to lead this recovery you need to be willing to open, and receptive to your H. You don't have to be a doormat, but you do really really need to develop some empathy about his situation.

While there are no guarantee's in this stuff, I can assure you that if you two develop a plan for meeting one anothers needs, and for you to be accountable to him for your time, there is a very good chance that this will work. Why? Because if you do this you will two will become a team.

Tell him these things and I think he will understand but don't be afraid to repeat them as often it is hard to hear through the filters we all carry within us.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Just a comment from your post on HS's thread. Men notice alot more than you seem to think. We just don't often feel the need to speak about it. You would be making a huge mistake if you think your H does not notice what you do and don't do, say and don't say. The problem you have is that if your words and actions don't match up, he will withdraw, and the withdrawal will kill your chances for a good marriage.

Last edited by Just Learning; 09/27/06 03:52 PM.
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receive tips/suggestions/ideas like BS seem to receive here. I don't see many posts of WS asking for help on recovering their marriage, I guess all due to the fact that when you are in an A the last thing you want is your M.

Anyway, you are right, this burden seems to be a lot worse for the WS and rightfully so given the fact that we are the ones that broke the vows. My problem seems to be when I try to figure out what he may be thinking or feeling, I guess I put myself in his shoes and I think perhaps he's changed his mind and wants out! I've gotten really good at expressing my concerns without making things worse, and usually his answers are "I am not the kind of person who will agree to do something and not follow through" (probably a dig at me but stil good!) so then I go for a few days when I think all is well and continue doing my part. Then something happens (like yesterday a misunderstanding about our DD12 schedule) and he acts all withdrawn and upset but doesn't tell me what is actually bothering him.... I go in "what if he has changed his mind...." mode and well, that's when I don't even know what to do!

I bought the book "Not Just Friends" today as he did say he will read it.... I started reading it and hopefully this will help him see things a bit clearer too.

It is SO hard to do the "day to day" things when this HUGE cloud hanging over our heads.

Thanks Mr. W. again...

Becca


WW (me) 36 BH 37 Married 16 yrs 3 children, 12DD, 4DD, 7 mths DD (OC) D-day 8/05 2nd D-day 10/05 *OC* 3rd D-day 6/08/06 DD *OC* born ~~ If I had known then what I know now ~~
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Unfortunately he still feels that perhaps because of OC I am going to still change my mind one day and ruin whatever progress we may have made. I like what someone suggested and perhaps not bring up the issues/R/M/A for a few days. I am in such a LET'S FIX THIS NOW mode but I guess I need to just give him time. So funny for me to be the one waiting when he is usually the one ready to fix things and move on.

I am soooooooo afraid of being rejected so I have a hard time initiating intimacy right now. I told him the other day, I don't even want to know if he loves me right now, I would be happy if he LIKES me!! (we were talking about the A obviously)

I keep thinking (and perhaps that's my problem!) that if he had problems with my personality in the past and there were things that made him crazy BEFORE the A and OC, imagine how much worse those things must feel to him now!! that's when I get really down and feel defeated already! I need to stop that. I know I am not perfect but I also know I do like the person that I am. I have a lot of great qualities and I need to remember that the door has been open for him to flee many times yet he has chosen to stay each time.

B


WW (me) 36 BH 37 Married 16 yrs 3 children, 12DD, 4DD, 7 mths DD (OC) D-day 8/05 2nd D-day 10/05 *OC* 3rd D-day 6/08/06 DD *OC* born ~~ If I had known then what I know now ~~
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“I told him the other day, I don't even want to know if he loves me right now, I would be happy if he LIKES me!!”

This made me think. Perhaps you need to think some more about what love is.

True love is a verb, a choice. Not feelings.

The probability is he does love you. He definitely demonstrates loving choices and actions towards you, even in the face of your unloving adultery. But he may not like you right now.

And that, if you understand what love really is, is quite all right.

Gives you something substantial to work with.

With prayers,


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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McBecca,

Here's a link to an old thread that really helped me a great deal.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0&fpart=1

Perhaps it will help you too. It took me days to read through it. I copied and printed out many of the posts from it, to re-read them later.

All the best to you.

~ Marsh

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McBecca...

a couple of thoughts...

1st... when your BH is acting withdrawn, he probably does have feelings of "am I doing the right thing staying?" "Should I leave?" "Can we get through this?" "Will she do this to me again?"

Everytime you have an argument or disagreement or you don't show the "doormat" as you put it... he probably wonders and fears.

This is something he has to get through. This is part of the journey as a BS that I am/have been going through.
...The fight or flight option.
...Conquering our fears.
...Learning to risk saying what we are feeling.
...Learning to be vulnerable and trust again.

When he is like that, tell him you want to hear how he is feeling... even if it might hurt. Opening up and allowing both to hurt and grieve and feel allows for a safer place in the future. He doesn't trust you not to hurt him again right now.

When I feel hurt and withdraw, my W always becomes depressed herself as she is afraid we will never get over this. She also wants for it to be over quickly. I want it over quickly, but I want to dig deep and cut out the whole wound... she would rather patch it up or dig slowly.

You are both at different points on the rollercoaster.

When he is like that, try reaching out softly... put your hand on his and wait for him to speak. Maybe he is different, but this works for me. When my wife also withdraw, that fuels my feelings of fear and anger.

Secondly... "I am a doormat."

IMO, having this attitude will put a wall up against recovery. Acting in a loving, repentful, patient, understanding, compassionate, trusting way to show how sorry you are because you love your husband, are sorry for hurting him, and want to do all you can to recover... is NOT being a doormat. This is showing love with strength. You choose this behavior because you want to recover "at all costs".

As soon as you do any of these behaviors with the idea that you are being a doormat... than that is exactly what it is... and you are harboring or building resentment. This will end any chance of recovery and keep you in the fog. You need to change your thought process on what your behavior means. And you need to NOT do any behaviors that you are not able to do in love or out of remorse and looking to atone.

It is like comparing a scared, shamed, lost person who fearfully jumps off a building to his death with a strong, proud Samurai who "falls on his sword". Both are the same acts of committing suicide. One is out of fear and shame... the other out of strength and honour.

...I know... a morbid example.

But your attitude behind your actions is very important, IMO.

Some might say you need to start with the loving actions even if you don't feel love... and I do agree with this idea to a point. But believing you are acting as a doormat brings about resentment. Doing the same action out of love brings about love. If you are acting in love only to receive a similar response, then that is not truly loving... it is only acting nice to get a response. Eventually if loving actions are not returned, then you may choose to move on... but it is far too early for that. Patience is necessary.

I hope these thoughts help.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
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Not only am I dealing with feelings that I cannot relate (betrayal) but i am dealing with someone who is not comfortable talking about feelings/emotions. He is a "numbers" guy, give him statistics and numbers and he is happy as a clam, mention feelings and he hides his head in the sand!

What you said about feeling more anger and hurt when your WW withdraws, makes sense. That's how my BS acts now and has in the past. However, I am not sure when I can/cannot talk these days. For some reason saying "maybe we should not bother trying anymore" is always at the tip of my tongue! I keep thinking that is what he may ultimately want just afraid to say it? I don't know..... quite frankly, I never understood my BS before he was a BS never mind now!!!

Becca


WW (me) 36 BH 37 Married 16 yrs 3 children, 12DD, 4DD, 7 mths DD (OC) D-day 8/05 2nd D-day 10/05 *OC* 3rd D-day 6/08/06 DD *OC* born ~~ If I had known then what I know now ~~
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Becca- I swear our H's were separated at birth. ANd I feel like you do- a total doormat, waiting for any crumb...and hope he doesnt' change his mind...and why dont' I just do it (D) so I beat him to the punch, cause that's where it's going.....

and for me, if I DON'T do SF, I'm in even bigger trouble- and it's really hard to muster up any desire, let alone enthusiasm....

I know what you mean by a FWW forum- I know Mr W is right about being able to post everywhere, and I know I do feel comfortable in my "F" status- but there seems to be a different way a WW goes about repairing things rather than a BW. I said to my husband yesterday, referencing these threads- "there are zillions of men and women whose spouses are actually LIVING with the other person who still want to save their marriage? Why don't you?" But he says he doesnt' want to get divorced, but he doesn't want to do anything himself for our marriage.....until maybe later IF I prove myself worthy.

Now, I see his point, I do, but the thing is I never felt "worthy" BEFORE the A. So now I really am thrashed, or feel that way.

Anyway, I feel for you, I know what you are struggling with, and I am here to "talk" to.

The bottom line, and I have to KEEP telling myself this- is, I need to DECIDE to save the marriage and then DO it- not renig (SP??) on my own decisions. I need to do whatever it takes knowing that even if he decides to ultimately leave I will have done my level best. And I really think that if I do my best, he wont' leave...

It's a faith thing, for sure.....


Me FWW 36 BH 50 D-day 1 2/18/06 D-day 2 3/28/06 (same EA) NC 3/28/06 and going strong 7 total children Mine/ours live with us DS 15 DD 12 DD 21 months "With all it's shams, lies, and broken dreams, life is still wonderful. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."
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McBecca,

You are starting to get a feel for how the BS feels.

[color:"red"] ( [color:"blue"]Unfortunately he still feels that perhaps because of OC I am going to still change my mind one day and ruin whatever progress we may have made. [/color] & I am soooooooo afraid of being rejected so I have a hard time initiating intimacy right now. I told him the other day, I don't even want to know if he loves me right now, I would be happy if he LIKES me!! (we were talking about the A obviously) [/color]

Has it ever occurred to you both of you are feeling the same way? Being perfectly honest and using PORH with him may help, alot. I guarantee you he feels the same way and you have inadvertently posted it here. If eh knows you are afraid of the same things he is you can work those fears and reassure each other that they are unfounded.

BSs have been so terribly broken they are afraid to do or say anything for fear of FWS or WS retaliation or even worse breaking NC.

You can start the recovery ball rolling, JL has given you some great advice as has MR.W. Read all of your threads again, read the advice given with an open heart and mind, read the advice with the intent to understand and learn, not to defend or argue.

I believe this will help you overcome some of your fears and in doing so will help you help your H overcome some of his.

Good Luck!


"Never argue with idiots or WSs, They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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Just chiming in to say I LOVE the Samurai analogy!

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Eagle,
This is just what I needed to read right now! I am the BS, and H has mentioned working toward recovery, and now I'm frightened of the very thing that you have mentioned, that he will stab me in the back again. I recently sent email to him detailing my fears, and hope to hear from him soon.

I also really loved the imagery of the samurai falling on his sword!


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McB
Your h feels insulted, tolerated, settled for : the practical choice if he is like me and most BHs.

Do your darnedest to make him not believe that. Thats a good start.


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MrsR,

“Now, I see his point, I do, but the thing is I never felt "worthy" BEFORE the A. So now I really am thrashed, or feel that way.”

Wait a minute.

Don’t put this feeling on BH. He is not responsible for your feelings. And there is no way he could possibly fix this feeling you have inside you, either. He probably doesn’t even understand it.

Something I read over and over on MB for a long, long time before I started to understand it:

Feelings are yours to own. No one downloads a feeling into your brain, or your endocrine glands either. They are generated internally by each of us. They are responses to stimuli. Some may be conditiond responses all the way back to FOO. Some may be totally untraceable. But none are imposed externally.

As weaver said on another thread, take this feeling of unworthiness out, examine it (with IC help if need be) and then set it aside.

Your BH cannot do this for you, no matter how hard he might try.

And he did not create it either. You did, internally. Yes, there were probably stimuli. But it’s how you perceived, processed and interpreted them.

And the same goes for his feelings too.

With prayers,

ed: The fifth post in this thread by LovingAnyway says the above even better.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...202#Post3108970

“Where do you end and where does he begin? Where does his stuff end and yours begin?”

I might even start using an understanding of this in my life. But I’d have to see how I feel about it, first, huh…

Last edited by Aphelion; 09/28/06 06:06 PM.

"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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you are very smart aphelion!

there's nothing new in what you said but it sure is worth reading over and over

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It may not be the WW sole responsibility but i suppose so much more is expected from us -- after all, we created the mess.

It's tough, very tough. We beat ourselves each day for what we did -- and then some more beating from our BH as we see them hurt, in pain and angry. And just as we all are responsible for and can control emotions and feelings, we did provide the stimuli.

In any A, both spouses hurt and grieve. But as the WW, we must find the strength to go beyond our own grief to spend more effort on making the M work. I too fear everyday that he would change his mind, that he would just finally give up and we part ways. At least your H says he wants to stay married. My H says he deosn't care if we stay or go. But the ever hopeful me is holding on to the fact that he hasn't asked us to leave. I see that as an opportunity, no matter how thin the thread is or how slim the chance is.

To Shaden, Aphelion and Bob... Thank you for your posts. It is an attitude and how we process the things that we do, why we do it, knowing that it is for love and to show remorse and atonement. To label it as being a 'doormat' won't help at all. Thank you for the honesty, the perspectives and the encouragement.

soph


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