KiwiJ mentioned your sit to me. I did a small amount of reading of your posts but <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> you way too many on Pio's thread for me to dig through. So, let's have a conversation out here ok? It is good to take things on the "outside" once in a while to get more perspectives from the greater MB community.

So can you give me some background? I see your H has had more than one A, correct? Any of the emotional or just physical? Long term or short? How old are your children and how long have you been married?

Ok, nuff questions. Let's talk ok? I won't be around much longer today and will be off the board for most of the weekend. We are taking the kids to Disneyland tomorrow. This is part of the big change my h has made lately. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh and FTR, I was the WS first in our M. Many years ago. In the last 5+ years my H had 3 A's, one which produced an OC. We are now in recovery.

Thanks for the invite!

Married 11 yr

3 kids: 10, 9, 6

WH first A (EA/PA when away for 4 month work stint)when preg with 10yr old; no A for next 1-2 yr; EA after 3yr M; no others that I knew of until 2002 when EA/?PA for over 3 yr at first in same town "best friends" and then long distance for past 3 yr; 2006- 4 separate EA/?PA btwn Jan-Aug; H says they meet his needs for admiration and are meaningless challenges that make him feel good...he admits I don't deserve this.

HX of M: I was M previous but D after 6 yr due to H did not want children. Current H and I M and pregnant immediately after M as was our plan (not smart), H almost a decade younger than me; H was SAHD for 9 yr and 2006 rejoined workforce. He is awesome and has been top sales and won awards etc all the while having no boundaries with clients that are mostly women 18-45 age range. Lots of carnage...

I basically denied the circular history b/c each time I tried to address he would threaten to leave or blow up...almost D in 2003 over the long term EA/PA with "best friend" but he cooled it down and they were separated by many miles...I was too busy with work, too worried about being single parent and just didn't want to deal with the bull that came along. We had SF issues since I didn't live up to the frequency and demand...I basically was exhausted and since he wasn't meeting my ENs I didn't really feel obligated to live up to expectation and delivered occassionally when I felt the urge. He was pretty deprived during that time and if I had a clue I would have been better but in my mind...I wasn't hot enough for him in the beginning so why should I worry after 3 kids...if he was gonna stray it wouldn't really have anything to do with me...at least that was my philosophy

Prior to this recent run of A's he was involved in a friendship with our neighbor that was just bizarre the amt of time and conversation together...she is now a good friend and confidante of mine and admits how strange it was but he never moved it past friendship...just very needy reciprocal relationship...very high school like

He is very honest in how these "friends" meet his needs and that any attempt of me to meet them is not the same as these strangers...

He basically dumped all of us and for past 9 months (up until past 3-4 wks) has been out of the house 18+ hours/day, no awareness of any events or concerns dealing with any of us...

The kids and I were in huge accident and could have died...life flights and hospitalizations for all...I thought it would be a wake up call but sadly he didn't even help out with any of our physical recovery let alone anything around the home...

Since then he agreed to MC but after 2 sessions he got up and declared D as his plan of action...then later waffled and said he was confused

He has lots of demons in his closet that he never dealt with and contributes alot to all of the dynamics

I have been on MB since Mar 06 and have done a great plan A from May-Aug...since then I am doing plan A but have many other thougths competing in my head...would love to give up and call it quits but for some crazy reason feel like I need to get him throught this...he even said he hopes it's a phase and verbalized remorse for all past events (never ever even acknowledged let alone remorse before)...says he doesn't think I can forgive him for past 10 yrs...not sure if I really can but still have this pang to hang in there...

Any input, advice, encouragement, smacking with a 2x4 would be appreciated.

Enjoy Disney! Thanks for seeking me out!

Hey 2much, I wanted to check this thread this morning befor we get ready to go. These days I POJA my time on the computer when my H is home. I can see why Jen pointed me to your situation. We do have some similarities. My H used to get all his admiration/conversation needs met outside our M. He also has used avoidance tactics to avoid intimacy with me. Our relationship started when I was dating a friend of his. We became friends and then he began to call me and asked me to help him with his college papers etc. Very similar to what he has done outside our M. Should have been a red flag for me but I fell in love. We married two years later.

Shortly after my DD was born I began to realize he pretty much ran from responsibility by being busy outside our home. Well these things were there at the beginning but we tend to ignore those annoying things in the early days don't we. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Our next door neighbor and he began this odd friendship that really left me feeling insecure. The weird thing is she would take her H along so it was likely an innocent flirtation on her part. I did what you mentioned, I became friendly with her. That put an end to the flirtation.

You may want to look up some posts by Mulan. Her H is very similar in this regard. Once he became high level in his work, the need for admiration became very strong and he had many innapropriate friendships with women at work. His "groupies" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Stop blaming yourself in the SF area. It is a two way street. Yes you didn't meet that need but we women need to feel love and affection before we feel that way. It is good you have identified and taken responsibility for your part.

Your H sounds very immature, like mine. He also sounds a bit passive/aggressive. There is a great thread on the recovery board on that subject. It has helped me a great deal.

It is amazing the similarities. My kids and I were in a near fatal accident right after my H's first PA. He was so resentful about having to care for me. I mean he BARELY did. It was awful. He maintained the WS mentality for two years after the first A until OW 2 came along. We had multiple false recoveries over a 2 year period and during that A an OC was born as well. During A#2, A#3 occured. That one was pretty much purely PA though again, she met the admiration EN.

I am 3.5 years older than my H. 2 of the OW have been younger than me, I believe #3 was about my age. I don't know much about her. The other two were old g/f's. They were my H's attempts to go back in time to his younger years when he was not burdened with responsibility. Memories are hard to fight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Is your H still living at home? If you have done a stellar plan A can you go into plan B?

It totally understand you not wanting to give up. I always saw something in my H that said not to give up. I filed for D and never followed through. Often fellow MBers would get frustrated with me because my situation was so painful. My H lied so much my world was upside down. Yet I always felt I needed to be there for him. If he has expressed regret then I believe there is hope. However he needs to face his demons and you cannot do this for him. Calling it a phase is an attempt to not take personal responsibility. It was not until my H started to take responsibility for his actions and admit his mistakes did he begin to make strides. It has been a long road. We have a long way to go but he sincerely sees and hears me now.

One book I highly recommend if you have not read it is "Co-dependent No More" by Melody Beattie. It helped me a great deal to take responsibility for my own part in this dance and step back.

I'll check back in with you either tomorrow or Monday. Have a great day.

FF,

Funny about the friendships...my H always got upset and didn't want me to be friends or even meet his female friends cuz he said I always stole them from him...essentially I guess I did b/c as soon as they realized I was normal, fun and a good wife they became my friends and ironically asked why I didn't can him. That was my mistake with his long EA...I never pursued being friends with OW...I let him keep her as "his" friend. I was an idiot for allowing it but too afraid of the fallout of making waves.

Again interesting as my H has "groupies" at work too..at least a dozen and he prides himself that as he discards there are many waiting in line. It kills me b/c if any of them paid attn they would realize how he is with them and move on...they even spat amongst themselves about who spends more time with him...

It may be meaningless in his head but it is a big power trip and a total manipulation of any women who shows any interest in him or his trade...I guess realizing this I feel like I am the queen of the fools...

H had heart to heart when he did verbalize remorse; he actually said he wanted to stay together cuz if it wasn't me it would be someone else...he said he could see himself having the same issues with any other woman...does that mean I tolerate it so he'll stay with me or he may as well deal with it with me since we have so much history? He has no plan except to prep all of our business and finances for D and states that if we end up not getting D things will only seem that much better...not what I want...

I will look into the recommended book since I do realize that my enabling has allowed this to be a long term issue. I really don't have anything to loose at this point. I am financially stable by myself and I do everything for kids, house, etc...he is just a nonpaying tenant for the past year.

I am sorry that you too had to go through a major life trauma without the support of your spouse. It didn't bother me much as I struggled through it since I was so busy trying to help my kids recover and get them to the specialists and all that...I basically ignored my physical and emotional pain and did what had to be done. It was about 3 weeks after that it started sinking in what a Ba$*!@d he was and all the while at my kids hospital bed had OWs visiting in hospital and talking by phone...all his groupies...who were there to support him!!!!!

I can relate so much to what you have said. How the heck have you done it and what made your H change behaviors? Was it painfully slow at first? How did the lying cease? Gradually or could turkey? PLLLLEEEEAAASSSEEE more info!

Cant wait to hear back from you.

2mhb

2much, I talked to my H. He may actually be willing to post some here and talk to you from his POV. I hope so cuz I think it will be useful. Not sure what but something clicked with him a few months ago. He had made me the enemy for so long and when he realized I was not his enemy things started to change for us. I have changed a great deal in the past several years, changes he did not really acknowledge until recently. MB really gave me some new perspective and giving my life to Christ brought HUGE changes upon me. I so regret my affair. It was a long time ago and a very immature and selfish way to handle my feelings of lonliness and rejection. Maybe, back then he would have heard me and we would not have gone down this long painful road but too late for regrets, eh?

To be fair to my H, he never went a day without seeing our children through all of this. He may not have been the most present father, but he was here. Even during the two weeks we physically seperated he was here every day. Seeing how many WS's are, I give him a lot of credit for that.

I see this a a good indicator that your H can really change. Mine too began to realize that moving on to another R with another person would likely just set into motion a series of relationships and breakups, and he was aware enough to begin to realize the problem was not me but in him. Yes, we have and had problems and yes I own mine but this stuff they are going through is within them. Once my H realized that "where ever he goes so goes he", it was the beginning of him really coming back to us. Funny, I realized yesterday that we have dealt with this for so long I am having to get to know him again. Once the change began and he truly went NC, it has been a quick change into the man I always knew he could be. Praise God because He never gave up and always gave me hope.

The book will help you and not to put the responsibility on you but to help you detach and take responsibility for YOU. We tend to take on so much and allow our H's put the blame on our shoulders, it was recently pointed out to me that is why men like that choose women like us. WE have to change they dynamics beginning with ourselves.

I am going to bump a thread by Pepperband for you called "Willard Harley is a smart man". It is excellent. Also remember to check out the passive agressive thread on the Recovery board.

2much, are you ok? Just checkin on ya

Yep, just drowning in work and kidstuff...haven't been able to get on for the past day or so.

I am having a paticularly bad day today...not sure exactly why but I guess it happens. I am furious with WH...although he is spending more time at home and sharing a little bit more info it seems as if it is backfiring on me. About 2 weeks ago he actually showed me a paycheck of his. For the past year since we relocated he has had his own acct and has never shared any detailed info with me. All bills are paid out of our joint acct which is my paycheck. I at one point got the paperwork to get him off the joint acct so I wouldn't have to worry about paying for his ho'ing but when it came time to get it notarized he sweet talked his way out of it.

This w/e I told him how disappointed DD1 was re: several promises he made and never followed through on...the only reason I did this is b/c she was giving him the cold shoulder and he was c/o that she was a jerk for ignoring him. He has to know why but I pointed out that she's a kid and it's normal for that behavior given his lack of follow through. He ended up buying her some stuff and surprisingly something for the house...I thought he was getting it until I realized today it came from the joint acct. I want to readdress getting him off of this acct but not sure how to do this...I really don't think we are making much headway at this point but...

He also has workstuff that he brought home a few weeks ago and put on a shelf...lots of books and paperwork etc. I picked up a book that had all kinds of papers poking out and started looking and it was all kinds of positive affirmations and sayings from one of his mentor/colleagues talking about being there for him and being his "safe place" etc...this women is constantly buying him personal gifts and he is aware of how I feel about it. I have to think that he reciprocates and that is how he is spending all of his $ since it isn't going to any of our bills.

I'm not in the mood for a complete blow-out, too exhausted to deal with his crap but this is the same OW that a neighbor told me he was smooching on in public 3 wks ago.

We can't even have a civil conversation b/c as soon as I give him info or ask a question he is so defensive he snaps my head off with his responses. He is spending a little more time at home and doing a tad more with the kids but overall I'm still solo. Not offering any help, $ or anythinng with running the house or dealing with kids.

I am really feeling like I'm at the end of my rope...the anger is overwhelming and I'm trying to do some stuff to deal with it like writing and venting but it doesn't seem to be doing it. I can't meet his ENs when just looking at him infuriates me and he can see it. I feel like I'm loosing self-respect because I feel like he is playing me like a drum...the only difference is I'm painfully aware.

I'm sure this is TMI but thanks for listening. I would love to get advice from your H if he is willing to provide it...I think you and TKO are about the last reasons besides my kids and vows that I'm hanging in with this ridiculous situation.

Thanks for checking on me!

Glad to see you back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Keeping busy can be good too. I am going to give you a couple things to do, ok? First read this thread Willard Harley is a smart man! Pep started this thread for me during a particularly dismal time in this for me. Read carefully about the giver/taker and you will see why you are so angry. Your taker is roaring for attention.

Next go over to recovery and read the passive/aggressive thread. These two assignments will take a bit of time but are well worth the effort.

My suggestion about the join account is this. Leave just the minimum amount necessary in that account and move the rest of the funds to a new account that hubby does not have access to. I never had to do this as my H always contributed his share. Prayers for a better day for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

FF,
I am working on the W Harley thread (pg 5)...used to follow the PA tread but became distracted and haven't been for months...I will go check it out after WH complete.

As for the acct...I detest game playing...could I not just address the issue since he pays all of the bills using the joint acct $ ? I used to do all the bills but got tired of arguing with WH re: his spending etc...turned over the bills to him to pay using the joint funds thinking that it would reduce my stress but all it did was give him more opportunity to spend and hide. He'd get PO'd when I would check the acct electronically...for over a year I didn't even have electronic access to view it b/c he created and kept the password. Now at least I can track what goes on in the joint acct but have no clue how he spends his $ since the credit cards I know of are paid for out of joint.

I'm sure there are many things I don't know about but can't imagine that it would consume entire paychecks...I will be even more furious as me and the kids budget and keep spending to a minimum. Guess I should go rake leaves or chop wood or punch a bag for a while...

I'll do my homework and get back to you.
Thank you

It is not game playing in my opinion to move your funds to a safe place. WS's are not trustworthy and when he is not contributing to household expenses then he should not have access to the funds. Do what you feel is best but don't do anything out of fear.

2Much - I 1000% agree with FF.

Get your own account. Move funds to it. Agree with your hauband about transfers into the joint account by him and you 50-50. This situation is totally ridiculous. You paying all bills with your paycheck and him spending his on a Ho? How is that working? WOW.

working on these issues today...laid out boundaries and consequences and am prepared to go the distance...am hearing babble in response interspersed with some reality but we shall see what happens...I did state that if this dealbreaker could not be resolved using the options I provided then we would be on the path to dissolution

Now I may need to back it up and become the enforcer...hate that role

Hi 2much,

And thanks FF for starting this thread. 2much is entering a new phase and targeted advice in her own thread should really help with support.

2much, in addition to your own account, arrange an initial consultation with a divorce attorney. This is simply so that you know your rights and obligations. I did this albeit a little late in the process and made some mistakes. You must take measures to protect you and your kids.

thanks Todd, I will get that scheduled asap

WH is flipping out

I am being strong and sticking to my guns...he is speaking the craziest fog talk ever in attempts for pity and compromise

I'll keep you posted

2much the fact that he is spewing babble at you is a good sign you are getting through. Hold tight. This is one of those moments that you be still and let his craziness fall to the floor. Ocassional reverse babble is preferred.

Why do you want this man in your life 2much? Let's say you get past this mess what's to say he won't continue on with what seems to be his way of life?

Don't put any more money in the joint account. Open one of your own & pay what ever you've been paying from that, leave the other open no need to close it.

Do you stay just because you don't want to be D twice?

Nams,

Not that easy with the accounts, if it were would have done it a while back...have allotments and direct deposit from that acct and when dealing with government work and trying to change over to new acct's they have a way of botching everything up...would be safer and easier just to have him removed all together from the acct.

Funny you mention fear of D twice...H asked the same thing a month or so ago. I could care less about that issue. I stay because I know the warm, caring, wonderfully sensitive man who once existed and touched my life. I saw him, felt him and was part of him at one point in time. Now with all of what has transpired I have to wonder if it wasn't a line or a crock or him feeding me spew the way I see he has done others. Could I have been so nieve, imperceptive, gullible? Could someone that shallow go through everything he has with me for the past decade??? I really doubt it...if I was just another card in the deck I can't see him doing all that he has done. I think there is a kind, loving and wonderful person struggling to escape all of the lies and defense mechanisms. Up until this point the benefits of remaining have far outweighed the risks...unfortunately we are now to a 20/80 ratio of benefit/risk.

I ponder the same question you ask...if we survive this...what next? I would be very surprised if we survive this, however I don't want to make any assumptions even if they can be validated by history. At this point I will settle for one day at a time. I think that folks like FF help me to see that anything is possible but each individual has to decide what they can/can't live with and what they are/aren't willing to expose their children to.

The irony is that I initially wanted to stay in as long as I can for the kids but seeing how it is now affecting them is making me more assertive about boundaries/consequences and a stronger potential toward D

Threw it right back at him...Orchid woulda been proud!

He has attempted several strategies from outright hostility, to pity, humor, back to hostile and now avoidance...not sure what to expect next

I'm dug in so I should be prepared!

That is exactly what kept me going that last 5 years, I KNEW he was in there somewhere. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />