Hi...

I'm an old timer from GQII, now divorced almost 1 year.
I have recently gotten engaged to a very upright Christian lady who who was widowed 3 years ago after 29 years of marrige. Her H was a pastor.

She has 2 grown D's (late 20's), one married with 3 kids and 1 ABOUT to be engaged.

Now..for the problem. The 2 D's have turned out to be very, very controlling of Mom to the point of being "manipulative". The oldest, especially, is horrified that Mom would even consider seeing another man...much less get engaged!

This was a short relationship (3 months). #2D has met and been pleasant (before the engagement), however, #1D had refuse to even meet due to her above feelings.

Both are trying to "manipulate" mom into breaking off the engagement. She's is a "softie" and hurt by her D's actions.

Comments?

So, what is your question?

You've known this woman 12 weeks and wonder why her children would be upset. RED FLAGS

Okay, that's fair enough.

However...the issues seem to center around "MOM should NEVER get married". And...invitations to meet #1D, as I stated, were nixed.

I am concerned that the D's seemed to MANIPULATE harshly. Ex: #2D told her mom this week that she went out last week and picked out her wedding dress WITHOUT HER because she was so upset about this "situation". Neeless to say, my fiancee was quite hurt. Problem is....#2D's BF hasn't even PROPOSED to her yet....kind of like she's looking for ways to "hurt" mom if you don't do as we say. Other instances could be given, but there seems to be some trend of the kids trying to run the farm.

So...my question(s), I suppose:

1. Should I consider this "red flag" something that SHE needs to resolve with her own kids before we proceed with any further plans?

2. Should there be an awareness that the kids shouldn't run Mom's life and it would be great IF they wish to participate.

3. Or what...?

My advice: take it easy.
Patience.
What's the rush ?
You're coming into a "long term relationship" that the children have with their mum, and their dad.
They are bound to be cautious/jealous/not wanting their dad replaced and they'll need time to trust you and your intentions.
Did you ever watch Freaky Friday (the one with Jamie Lee Curtis and Mark Harmon)?
That movie pretty much sums up your situation.
It might also make you smile as it's pretty funny..

GG-
you were right to call me over here - I rarely read here. I guess thats becuase I am not dating, I am newly married.

I need to run to lunch right now, but I will certainly give your situation some thought and get back to you.

Please allow me to say something right now that you need to give some thought to - your situation is no different than anyone else. that is something you discovered during your WxW's A (affairs) and it is true now. Bascially, we human beings are very much the same. When people used to tell you things like "Your WW is no different than any othr WW" and you eventually came to discover the truth in that - let me now tell you that your engagement and marriage with Ann will be Very, Very similar to other engagements and marriages beltween 2 adults, over 40, who have been married before.

Why do I say that? Because in my last posts to you, your response was something like "yeah, but......" as in, "yeah but, we both have been married before so we know what to expect" and "yeah but, this time is different becuase Ann is a Proverbs woman"
GG - both of those statments are absolutely true - you are older, wiser, and more grounded in your faith. BUT you are still going to experience a lot of the same issues any other couple would experience, when they get engaged after only 3 months - only this time you will have even more obstacles becuase you both have adult children. I would challenge you to accept the reality - your journey is not likley to be any easier - in fact at times it will be more difficult. Remember the statement I once made - that you just don't know what to expect? I think you are starting to see some of that right now.

I am not trying to dscourage you in any way. I just want you to quit thinking that you and Ann are any different. instead, start to accept the well intended advice from people who have walked this path.

Ok, off my soap box now.

Going to lunch and will get back to you

Thanks WOF...I didn't expect to find you so quickly.

Okay, it's a deal. I'll put back on my mere mortal street clothes and put my SuperChristian suit back in the drawer.

Here are some of my thoughts about the sitch, and I may be WAY off base...anyone can say so if they wish..

It seems to me this is a "family dynamics" sort of issue related to Mom and her D's. Other things the D's have gotten upset about:

Mom selling the house she and their Dad had for 4 years to buy a townhouse.

Mom ridding herself of any of Dad's stuff when she moved.

And...basically the D's wanting M to check with them before doing anything of significance. It's like the parent / child has been reversed, but she is still (so far, at least) mentally capable to make decisions.

So....if we marry while the kids still feel "in charge" seems like we have instant conflict (as I'm not too predisposed to allow that to continue), or

If we DON'T marry until she resolves that issue (helping her D's understand that she is still "mom", not some helpless creature), then that may be an eventuality that may NEVER occur...or even get worse over time...

Another ex. of #2D's actions...she says she and her BF have talked about a "date" for their wedding, but she won't tell her Mom so we can please ours around that. (I find that quite childish).

To me...these don't sound like things that the passage of time makes better...it calls for a firm "who's in charge around here, anyway?"

Okay, now I'm ramlbing...so back to others thoghts and input.

Are you sure she's not the one who set up the child/parent dynamic? You are so sure it was them, but perhaps she depended on them too much.
Perhaps they see her as a naive 50 YO, rather than an independent 50 YO woman.

Newly...I haven't OBSERVED that. It seems like they want her to kind of be their maid-servant.

Ex. they were all going to a wedding for someone they all knew recently. #1D called at the last minute and asked Mom to keep the kids, so she stayed home from the wedding and kept them. Then...they decided stay gone about an extra 3 hours AFTERWARDS without calling and asking/telling her.

In my mind..I think she may have set it up by ALLOWING it to happen....over and over and over....

But...I don't know for sure..

My only comment is that after a 29 year marriage, being divorced for less than one year is nowhere near enough time to grieve, heal, regroup, know yourself again, date around enough to see what you want or don't want, let alone be engaged to someone.

Such stories do occasionally have happy endings, but very very rarely.

I would strongly advise you to slow down and give things some time. Lots of time. Maybe a year or two at the very least.

AGG

I actually have both perspectives here. Can’t remember if I ever told you that my Mom passed away 5 years ago, after a lengthy illness. She and Dad were only 62 at the time. Dad was devastated, lost. He retired the year before she passed, because he knew that he needed to be home for her. So once she was gone he was alone, retired, and only 62. He took off in his motor home just to hide for awhile. At that time my sister was still alive (she passed away last year) so my sister and I would have lengthy talks about how dad was “going crazy”. After 3 months on the road he returned home and announced that he had met someone. My sister and I were shocked. We did not mind that Dad was dating – we certainly did not want him to alone. But after only 3 months?? Especially when he had been so clearly, completely, devastated? After about 2 months he was engaged, and then got married right away. None of us kids were invited to the wedding– they wanted to keep it simple, no fuss, so they just announced one day that they were married.
I knew at the time that it was not right. I knew it was too quick. But I didn’t say anything. I figured it would do no good. But I remember thinking “if the role was reversed, Dad would be telling me it is too quick”. He told my sister and I that “I know it seems to quick, but when it is the right one, you just know” and he also said they “had so much in common”, and “at their age they did not think it would be necessary to carry on a long engagement” because after all “they aren’t getting any younger” and “they want to travel together and enjoy retirement, but they won’t do that without getting married first”

Within 6 weeks he realized he had made a huge mistake. He took off in the motor home, again, and she stayed at the house – this is the house he and mom had lived in together. The house where my mom had died. He has since told me that, looking back, he realizes that in his hurry to find someone to spend time with, he over looked a lot of things. He was convinced at that time that they had absolutely everything in common, but later realized that he just made it seem that way in his mind. When you want something to be true, you find away for it to be so..
Finally, after about 6 months, he returned home long enough to file for D.

About a year later he met another woman, who he is married to now, and they are doing well.

Looking back, I can say that my sister and I never openly objected to that other woman. But we did not shower him with praise either. I am certain that the two of them said things like “the girls would object to their father marrying anyone. It is hard on them now, but they will adjust”

But in reality – we did not have a problem with him dating, or remarrying. It was a little awkward at first, simply because we didn’t know how to act. But we did not carry around some notion that our Dad would be single forever.

You have made that comment a couple of times now – about your boys, and now about her girls as well. That the kids would object to you dating anyone, regardless of who it is. I suspect you are probably wrong about that. It is awkward for them – they don’t know how to act. But they are big kids and understand that adults do date – and get married.

My H and I have not had much objection from our kids. His oldest is 19 – in the Marines Corps, and father of a 2 year old. His mom lives in England, so he has actually enjoyed having a “mom” around again. He started calling me mom soon after we were married.
My oldest boy was 17 when I got married. He objected at first. I remember my new H saying that was because he was used to being the man of the house. There may be some truth in that. But more than anything, looking back, I realize that he had just been through Soooo much. He does have a good relationship with my H now. They talk football all the time.
My 15 year old loves his step dad. He confides in him more than me. BUT he still struggles with the whole “Dad vs Step Dad” issue. Lots of people assume that my H is the Dad. My H and I have moved to a new town, attend a new church. So most of our friends did not know me when I was married to the WxH. When they see the three of us in church they assume that this is my sons dad. And that hurts my sons feelings. He wants to stick up for his dad. He wants people to know that his dad is a good guy, and he loves him. Remember when my YS ran away last January to live with his dad? One of the reasons he gave for running away was because the pastor referred to my H as “dad” and my ex as the “bio-Dad” and YS was angry about that. The Pastor has apologized to him for being insensitive, and most the time there is not a problem, but occasionally YS will go through moody times.

I have gotten too wordy again. I still have more to share. But let me close with this. I remember that as an adult child, when dad got married, my sister and I said “we are not going to call her step mom. We are too old for that. We will just call her our friend”(referring to the wife he has now) in time, I came to love her, and now I call her my step mom, simply because the word friend does not truly describe my relationship with her. She is more than a friend to me.

I am still not telling you to stop what you are doing, or slow down. I know that I didn’t slow down – and several people told us to. I just want to give you something to think about. If one of your boys were to propose to a woman who they had only known by phone for 3 months, and met in person only once, you would be apprehensive. Even though you know they are smart adults, with a strong faith, you would still question your timing. It is not unusual for your boys to question your timing – and also for her girls to question it. Her girls, right now, are wondering if she is going crazy. And that is ok. She would wonder the same about them if roles were reversed.

The D's may be concern with the swiftness of the relationship. Or, more likely they are dealing with the loss of their conception of their family. With you in the picture, their family is no longer mom and dad, its mom and this strange guy.

They may be thinking, Mom's in the throes of new relationship energy and rushing into a lifetime commitment with someone she barely knows. And you know what? That's probably the truth.

My advice, stretch out the engagement for a year or so to give them time to adjust. Be kind, be patient.

Hi there FGG, I just wanted to tell you there are plenty of good people over here on the divorced/relationship board who have lots of experience with various aspects of new relationships.

Are you still doing pottery?

just read your comments above, and I gotta say, the words you speak now, have been spoken by my new H in regards to my R with my boys.

Let me say this again - I Love my new H. he is truly a blessing from God.
But when we argue, 99% of the time it is related to the kids. he feels like I allow the boys to walk all over me. I do not see it the same way. For instance, my OS and I joke around with each other. A while back I asked him to move some boxes for me. As he was moving them he said "Woman! Why do you make me do all your work!" to which I said "quit being such a poopy head"
My H was angry at OS, and yelled at him for speaking disrespectfully to me. In my opinion, it was not dis-respectful. We banter like that some times. I don't even remember when that type of banter started - but it makes us both laugh, because we have done it for years. Now, my new H wants to put a stop to it. His heart is right - he wants to protect me! he thinks that after being a single mom for a couple of years, that the boys learned how to bully me, and he wants to put a stop to it. the problem is - I just don't see it as being deliberately dis-respectful. heck - I call him poopy head! And we both laugh when we banter like this/

This whole scenario causes friction for all of us.

that is why I say that once you are married, you will go through ALL of the same newlywed issues that couples experience in their twenties, but you will also add this whole new dynamic with your adult children.

I don't have a perfect answer for you.

WOF & others...

I know the implications seem to call for "wait", and I respect that. She and I have adopted a new moniker in our relationship...."TAP" (Trust And Patience)...and that is what I am trying to work on.

We've decided (mutually) not to set a date...mainly to allow her kids to get "used to" the idea.

I am curious, WOF, about what was different (if anything?) about your dad's 2nd "new wife"? You indicated he met her about a year after the D, but didn't say how long their courtship lasted prior to their M.

And...the fact that she has been a widow for 3 years...and her #1D still verbally says Mom should NEVER see anyone else and be known as "Mrs. XX XX" for the rest of her life...that troubles me too.

I think I understand your Dad's feelings. Sometimes I want to go just to "get away", but then I realize my "loneliness" will be there waiting on me, too. Perhaps you recall my very near foray to Mexico earlier this year.

I am sorry to hear of all of your family losses. However, I am heartened by the encouraging report of YS.

As far as my comments about 'dating' anyone, my #2S has told me that he thinks I should wait forever just in case xW ever returns to her sanity. And, Ann's #1D told her that she should NEVER see anyone else. So...those 2 cases are what they said...not my "assumptions".

WOF...

We're cross posting here.

Let me add...then I'm off to church and the Y for a workout.

When I talked to Ann yesterday, she started crying and said "they are so mean to me". I felt so sorry for her..some of the reason I feel this is beyond a genuine concern for their mom vs. a genuine desire to control their mom.

Back later...

Hi nams....back to you later too.

FGG, I tried to post something big and long to you earlier. Obviously it didn't post.

Anyway, after reading the additional posts, I'm glad you aren't setting a date.

I have a different reading of D2. Could it be that she feels you and her mother are stealing the limelight that rightfully belongs to her?

In any event, if I were you, I'd beware of situations that make me say "I wouldn't allow that" about other people's children. Even with adult children, blended families are difficult. In some ways, I think adult children may be even harder. We are adults, and we have a limited investment in pretending to be a big happy family when we aren't. That can make holidays, etc rough.

“I am curious, WOF, about what was different (if anything?) about your dad's 2nd "new wife"? You indicated he met her about a year after the D, but didn't say how long their courtship lasted prior to their M.”

Good question. I can’t remember how long the second courtship lasted, but I know it was longer than the first. More than 6 months. The woman he is married to now gave my sister and I a much better “vibe” if you will. We still thought he was acting crazy. But at least this woman gave us a better feeling. She was much more down to earth. The other one seemed to always be trying too hard to impress us. Here again, I never even shared my concerns with dad until after he divorced her! He says now that I should have told him how I felt – but I know it wouldn’t have mattered, and he agrees. He said that so many people told him to wait and he had and come back for every single one of them.

So I would say that for one thing, we all had a better feeling when we met his current wife, but also, they dated for longer which gave us all a chance to just “feel better” about the whole thing. That other quickie marriage scared the poo out of all of us, because we knew how vulnerable he was.

A red flag went up for me when you said that your bride-to-be was crying and telling you that her daughters have just been so mean to her. Something is not right there….I can’t quite put my finger on it, but for one thing, I know that men can easily get caught up in the whole “hero” idea, where they come in and save the woman. I KNOW for a fact that this was one thing that attracted Dad to that other woman. I remember well how he talked about her past, about how hard she has always worked, and how he was looking forward to spoiling her. He talked about how she appreciated every little thing he ever did for her, that she wasn’t used to a man spoiling her. I am not sure, even now, if that was an act of hers. I am sure she did have a rough life, and I know Dad was very kind to her. But I think that he was so caught up in feeling good about all the stuff he could do for her, that he lost sight of a lot of red flags!

Also – in my own case – my new H has always been quick to spoil me. He likes to do things for me, and after the he11 my Ex put me through, I love being spoiled! But, sometimes it can get carried away. I like my new H to be romantic, and thoughtful. But I don’t like him to get mad at my boys on my behalf!! Those are my babies!! I believe in backing my H up, 100%. We never argue in front of the kids. But when we are alone, there are times when I want to vent about the boys, and then later I feel like I have to defend them! It is a very hard balancing act.

I believe I have shared with you that we are going to a MC now, just to make sure we are building a solid foundation. It has been good for us. One thing the counselor pointed out to me – I am more emotional in this M than I was in the last one. If my new H hurts my feelings it hits me much harder than it did before. He asked me why that is. And I said that with my first H I didn’t expect any better. He hurt my feelings all the time,and I just didn’t think about it too much. I just figured that was the way it was. But this time, I am married to my dream H. We pray together, study the bible together, sing praise songs in the car. We love to travel, and take turns spoiling each other. I feel like I have a lot more at stake in this M. For one thing, I NEVER want to go through the he11 I went through last time. I am also just so grateful to finally have the kind of M I have always dreamed about – so any little argument, or cross words, just hurt me so much deeper. This has been a very surprising realization for me.

I have typed several novels to you – and still no good advice.

GG – your boys will eventually come around. If this is truly the right woman for you, they will come to understand that, and agree with that. I am a little worried about what is going on with her daughters. Their reaction is not typical. I am sure that they have concerns like my sister and I did – that their mom must be nuts. But I also worry that there is an unhealthy family dynamic going on over there that you are about to draw yourself into AND your boys. Because anyone you marry, will affect your boys.

The other thing is three months is just not enough time to see all aspects of another person. You need to see them in good times and bad, and you need to see them when they lose control, etc.

Three months is barely enough time for the pheremones to wear off. There are a few people here who three months into their relationships were sure they had found someone perfect for them. Not a red flag insight. Many of those same people have now ended the relationship. I'm not saying yours would be like that. I am suggesting you take a hard look at the dynamics of the family you'd be marrying into and at why you need to move so quickly on this.

oops standby folks..

Okay, back from church and a workout. I've lost 2 pounds...a minor celebration is in order!! (Now...where are those brownies?).

Nams...I elected to drop out of pottery this session (8 weeks) because I was constantly having to go out of town or something and missing about 1/2 of the classes. I think I will either get back in the next session or see if I can find another class in town somewhere for something "fresh".

Green...I've thought about the "limelight" thing...but I don't really think that fits what's going on...plus it seems to be #1D that is even more rabid (can I use that descriptor?) than #2D.

WOF....and other part of Greens' thought...

first, let me say WOF that I am hanging onto your every thought for 2 reasons:

1. You have BTDT.
2. We share a common and similar faith.

That being said....

I think the things you say about you and your new H are very, very similar to what we are/will be like. And...even though I WILL discover her flaws...I do think that very likely the issues we will face will be over kids.

Regarding what you said about you feeling more at ease with woman #2, I could tell last Monday night that my #1S really did LIKE Ann, even though every time it started showing through he was quick to reel it back in and hide it. And #1DIL and her really, really hit it off well. I do think that she WILL be the one who will "win" (if that's the right word) over my S's in due time, if that can be done. And that's quite simply, I belive, due to the fact that she is a very, very sincere, genuine...spirit-filled Christian and she is very transparent.

However, I am concerned about how I would relate to HER D's. I certainly respect and understand what both of you (GG and WOF) are saying about "correcting" the others children, especially grown ones.

However, if I go back to "Honor Your Father and Mother", I don't see her D's honoring her at all...I think they are manipulating and "dishonoring" her. When we discussed that...she said she realizes that but she doesn't know HOW to make them honor her.

So....WOF...putting me your H's shoes for just a moment. If we (Ann and I) married, her D's continued to manipulate her, I believe that I would (and SHOULD) step in with love (okay....that might be a challenge) and pointing out the error of such actions.

Would that likely lead to, IYO, a conflict within our relationship....or a healthy family dynamic (across the board) to purge such actions that are unhealthy? How would you (WOF) and H deal with such a scenario if he corrected your kids if they were obviously "badgering" you?

Okay...that is my novel..