Rin,

I really don't know what to say, but I can empathize. It's so hard when everything seems so twisted and backwards and wrong.

Wish I had something wise to say that would help. But my brain is inside-out these days, too. Thankfully, you have lots of wise folks posting to you!

I can really only offer (((((((hugs))))))) and support.

I've been pretty self-absorbed recently, so I think I'm getting things twisted up in my head. I'm not really clear on what you want and what your plan is. So at the risk of over-simplifying .....

I think I get that you want to go to Plan B to enforce the boundary of NC with OW for life .... but are kind of in the same sitch that I'm in where it's not so easy, mechanically, to do that .... is that right?

And I also think you see him at least making little reaches and moves, but it's not enough ..... he won't agree to NC, and that's a deal-breaker?

But I'm not clear on if you've talked to him specifically about what has to happen, what your deal-breakers are, and why? I know that for a long time, you were avoiding any R talk. And I have read about you talking to him about the concepts you're learning, and kind of theoretical things ...... but have you specifically listed the requirements for recovery? The four rules, or whatever your new book has instead of that .... NC ..... and why they are important? I might have just missed when you told him those pieces, so let me know if I'm off here.


I'm not sure, I might be projecting my own sitch on you, but I guess the only thing I can say is really slow down. It still feels like you're on a roller coaster to me .... one day DH is being wonderful, and so you feel happy and hopeful and aren't ready for Plan B, and the next, he's WH again, because of a trigger or a dumb move by him, or even an old memory -- and you'd be out of there in a minute if you could.

It feels so wrenchingly back-and-forth to me, and I'm not the one living it. I don't know how you can expect to think clearly and re-parent your child and make good, long-term decisions when you're getting whiplash all the time. You have made so much progress and learned so much and come so far ..... I just don't want you to lose any of that with rash, emotion-driven decisions.

Sorry if I've missed the mark, here. Like I said, there are a lot of wiser people than me who are helping you .... and my own whiplash probably colors my perception a little bit.

But I'm definitely empathizing! And sending you all kinds of support. You are amazing!!


-AmI.

Hi, AmI! Girl...you are on track...I've talked to him about the rules...I feel like I can't talk to him...

My H was a really great guy...if I had my choice tonight, this minute, I'd go straight to plan D. I want this over...I had along talk with my mom tonight about what's been going on here. I told her that I was saving money and what I had in mind...LOL...told her that aliens had abducted him. She said that if I needed ANYTHING that I knew I could call her.

Mom and I must have talked for over an hour. I don't know the last time that we've done that! I feel like I'm done but then again I'm not around him. When I get around him...he can fill me up so fast...just make everything alright...

Thank you for understanding...I know that you do...

As for as the new book...he's suppose to be reading it...he asked me about my reading the other day so I asked him about his...he's hasn't picked it up. His choice...

I'm going to assign half of this day as not so good and the other half okay. I feel so good when F and I are going somewhere...we joke, we play around...I feel good when WH isn't around...just when I get around him...I don't want to let my guard down b/c I DO NOT want to get hurt anymore...

It's like I don't want to put my faith in him...I just want to protect me. I expect NC and what happens...I get hurt...disappointed...I'm tired. Yesterday, I guess hit me today! Oh, and what I mean by faith...he hasn't even earned a chance with me right now. I feel drained.

That's today! Tomorrow...LOL...I will pray to be different! I'm so drained today...and yet I'm still nice to him...I don't even understand that one.

Thank you for JUST letting me write...for just letting me get my feelings out...for just being YOU... I appreciate ALL the support...You're a life line! Thank you!

I'm doing better this morning! Much better than I was last night!

LA- LMAO- go figure in the middle of SF...I thought about what you said about choosing to love and not trust...at that moment, I understand what you meant...

WH wasn't going to push me into anything I didn't want to do...I said I didn't think it was a matter of what I wanted to do it was a matter of need at that point...

We briefly talked about how many times a week would be good for each of us with SF. I said 2 or 3 times and he said it all depends on the week but agreed with 3 times on the average.

It's so darn hard to feel so horrible when he's not around but feel so comforted when he is. When he's not around, I don't want him around but when I get around him and I let myself relax it's like everythings going to be okay.

I don't understand that...I'm confused about the whole issue and I keep telling myself it would be SO much easier if I hated him. I get it that love's a choice, and I can love and disapprove of his actions. I mean I've told the kids "Ilove you but I really don't like what your doing right now." LOL

Funny I would think slightly different with adults.

Why is it okay for me when I get around him that I'm willing to take so much [email]cr@p?[/email] I mean he's not all the bad of a guy...I'm just willing to push his bad choices to the side?

Like him telling me that he wasn't going to push me into doing anything that I didn't want to do...last weekend he wasn't expecting to get SF either and I wasn't sure I wanted to but when I curl up next to him...it's like my senses come alive and all I have to do is rub his arm or his back and I'm there...ready...and if he carasses me back or any part of me...it's a go...

I feel like I cave in...the issues are still there but I'm willing to let him meet my needs...does that go with choosing to love...seems like it does...

Very different from choosing to trust...giving my half...

The "store" is off limits as for as I'm concerned...I've said that I would prefer that he NOT go there...does that make a difference...NO, why? Because he's got friends there, it's where he meets up with his co-workers...

It's like the Dairy Queeen for young people...I can't make him stop going...it's a boundary that is crossed...how can I enforce something like that...

it's not that I don't feel important enough to enforce it, but when you're dealing with a stubborn, refuses anything to do with authority...not that I am but if that's how I'm seen...then how can you do that...in cases like this he's going to do whatever he wants...

The only thing I've gotten is he's not looking at porn...he's found a crack...biker photos...wet t-shirt contests...to me better than porn and I can handle it...

I guess it's a matter of picking your battles too.

Point being this morning...I'm doing well...Thank you for letting me share...

Oh, I REALLY see how A can be an addiction now...funny, after five meeting and hearing it so much I put that together...LMAO

LMAO...no offense to blondes...but I would hate to see what I would have been like if I were one...LOL

I answered my own question on reparenting...chek out the link I found...

Reparenting your Inner Child

Rin,

What a COOL website!!

You don't know it yet, but you answer ALL your own questions.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As to your posts...can we talk about your measuring, please? You measure your days, you judge them...tell me if this is the way you show yourself progress...by how you feel? Are you looking to look back and see seven good days in a row to prove something to yourself?

Hard to let go judgment when you use it minute to minute. Monitoring is awareness...to know what is...not to prove a thing. Only to know.

And yes, I'm thrilled that you got Al-Anon and addictions...which are us managing what is ours in a destructive way...no matter the substance...and how much acceptance (and not because you are acting acceptable), love (and not because you are earning love), and hope resides in those who got to their center and strive to stay there. Humans being awesomely human.

LA

Well, I've read some pretty interesting stuff today from that website!

I also watched the end of a great movie. I stayed in my pjs until a few minutes ago. LMAO Only to go get the pizza, bring one to WH and back home...

F and I skipped supper and went straight to dessert last night. Brownie, ice cream with strawberries, whip cream and a cherry! It was good!

LOL...you know reading some of that stuff and given my childhood...I'm doing pretty darn GOOD! I see some enabling which I need to correct some of the ways that I handle things...I think the main thing is to speak up for myself more...

To answer your question on measuring in days...I don't think I do...I can look back to May and say "OMG, look at what I've done...who I've become..." I think a bad day is a bad day.

I am in a rut I think. I feel betrayed because I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe what he said was true. That's what hits me so hard...I feel like I'm trying to trust and it's like he's working towards that and he screws up. WTF?

I know I can't figure him out...that not my job...I just keep thinking I need to be in Plan B...he's not going to learn his lesson otherwise...

Is that a DJ? I mean here we are two weeks later and it's all good...and I can't wonder when the need contacts going to be...i'm not getting a NC letter...

I wonder what effort he's putting in...there again, I know that I should NOT waste my energy there...

It's a matter of wanting still to save my M even through I'm feeling my bank in the negative...

I have to go right now...but I have a few more things I need to write down...

Thanks so much for being here for me...your cherished so much...

(((Rin)))
I haven't been on much lately. Just wanted to let you know that I am trying to keep up with your sitch and that I have faith in you.

I know that no matter what, you will be ok.

Stay true to yourself Rin. You are amazing.

Thanks, Liz!

F and I went to WH's work to deliver the pizza and I mentioned that F was bored. WH asked if I had any money I said I had $10, so he gave me another $10 and told me to take F to play miniture golf.

F and I went, it was something he's never done to me knowledge. God, he was horrible at it but we had a good time. We didn't have to take score because it's haunted miniature golf through the 31st. They had people dressed up and Halloween stuff all over. It was cool. First time I had been there.

After that, F and I went back up to WH's work b/c he had found some wood for me to build some more stuff in the work shop. The company gets these big wooden crates and they just trash them. This is awesome wood!

So, F and I just got home...we had a really good night...heck...day...

WH is in a good mood...he's off tomorrow night...he was even trying to pick with me...of course, I picked back...

I don't know what to think about the two of us...WH has been good...LOL...since the book burning...LOL...I don't know...one day at a time huh?

Well, I forgot what I wanted to post earlier about so, I guess I'll end it here.

Oh, Liz...don't worry sweetie...you have more important issues to attend to IMO...LOL...I completely understand! I haven't been on as much as I use to either. It was getting maddening for me! LOL

OMG...talk about revelations for me! LA...you said that I would awe myself but I never would have thought I would accomplish the things...say the things...do the things that I have in the past 24 hours...

I didn't get to bed until 9:30 this morning...I read a post I think of yours and I had a few things that I needed to say to WH...so I called him after practicing what I wanted to sat for like thirty minutes an hour...

First I asked if he was in a good mood...he said yes and asked why...I said b/c I have something to get off my chest and I just need you to listen...I really needed to be heard...he said okay, what do you have...

I said "This is what I believe. I know that you know I would be hurt with the recent betrayal with those woman. I also know that you knew I would check the cell phone bill. That means that you knew that you would hurt me and I can't continue in a R where you intentional hurt me."

"So, I put into a position in which I have to make a choice, a decision that is not easy for me because this affects the four of us for the rest of our lives. Not the retaining fee is $500 to $2500...that's not really a problem now...the problem is that the law changes in Jan. and that's adding some presuure to me because if you have kids the D will take a year."

"I just needed to let you know where I am right now. I'm trying not to rush into anything or make any hashy decisions. I thought long and hard befre I called you to make sure that I chose my words carefully to make sure that I was understood.I wanted to say it now so that we can try to make the most of your day off."

I thanked him for listening and told him that I appreciated him taking the time to listen. He called back about thirty minutes later.

Oh, I hate to do this but I have to continue the story later. We're going grab something to eat.

I will say that we both agreed that it was the best conversation that we've had in a long time. More good stuff to come.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Okay...so after I got off the phone, I went lay down to go to sleep...the first thing I asked myself when I laid down was: Did I expect anything to happen as a result of me telling him those things? The answer was no. I wanted to make sure that my intent was not to munipulate him into doing something that I wanted like realizing what he's doing...

It was purely because I needed to say it...so with that I tried ti go to sleep...

I don't think it was very long that I was asleep when the phone rang and I had to go running through the house. I got it as before the answering machine picked up. We got the greeting out of the way and WH said "You know for the longest time I thought that you didn't want me. ANd you've threatening D before."

I said that was honestly empty threats and that I was sorry for them. I said that I did love him very much, I did and this would be so much easier if I hated him. I said that I can't imagine going on the way we have making each other miserable.

WH said that he figured out why he was coming to soon in bed and it was because he never felt that I was into it. That he needed for me to let my guard down...

I repeated and then added that it was really funny because I thought and felt the same thing. We talked some more...

At one point I remember saying to him that I didn't want to be the person that I use to be beause that person would do things to intentional hurt him, like he does to me. I didn't want to be the person that munipulated him into getting what I wanted...(my brain stopped on that one)!

I thought to myself...Did I just say that? I can't believe I just said that...I was totally in awe...I had thought about my behavior before and tried to see the validated in him statements to me...the part where he said that I was controlling...but when I realized I said that it hit me...

We had to end the conversation suddenly but after I got off the phone...I was amazed!

It's like it all came together...I owed my part of the problems...I now saw what I did...I sat and thought about it for some time in the dark...

I TMed WH and said that I would be waiting up for him and asked if he would like supper. He TMed back Sure. His usual reply is Fine. I was a bit surprised.

Well, I turned on the light and picked up my blue book intended to go to the index as usual and read about whatever hit me. Instead I ended up on the 12 steps and as I read the steps...I stopped at step 5. I read it and thought that's what I just did...owned my bahavior to someone else.

Months ago, I confessed that my life was a mess and at some point I asked God to some into my heart. I have been doing a moral inventory since this whole thing began, and now I was ready to confess my shortcoming to WH. I was/am thrilled at the progress that I've made.

I got the whole thing about it being about me and not about him...his stuff is his stuff and my stuff is my stuff...I even told him that I would take his moods on as my own...and I realized that we would bounce off each other and I didn't want to do that anymore and I sure didn't want to teach my children to be like that.

The conversation with WH, my ownign of my behavior or my part, just the whole thing was awesome!

WH got home and ate. He asked that I run a bath for the two of us, and we sat and talked a little. We stayed up a little more and then went to bed, which was earth shattering to me. I don't remember the last time we've done the things that we did. I was even wondering if I had signed up for a gym class and didn't know it?LMAO

WH has been attentive all day...F was sitting between us and WH was playing with my ear, neck, and hair. Laying in bed this morning, he wouldn't/couldn't stop kissing my forehead or arm.

I don't know what this is right now...where it's going to go...but I SOOO feel like we've hit on a milestone...I don't know...We'll see...

Wh still attentive...we had a great night last night...no R talk...he attacked me with SF in the living room last night...and then I started it in the bedroom...

MOF, I fell asleep immediately afterwards...I have rarely done that...

This morning he got us and asked if I wanted him to move his truck...he did and F and I left...

I had to stop back by the house b/c I forgot my cell phone and WH kissed and hugged me when I got there and then kissed me again before I left...

I really hate to get my hopes up...

I was thinking back this morning and we were watching Carrie Underwood's video "Before he cheats" (?), where she destroys his truck...WH had made some comments about her doing that and I said you wouldn't believe the thoughts that have come to my mind...I said I even thought about making flyers and handing them out...he didn't say anything...

I also remember telling him in the first conversation that when I called him that "I know that you withhold your feeling and thoughts from me, but I need you to tell me what you think and feel." I'm not sure if that's what prompted the return call from him or what but I do feel like we made some headway this weekend...

I really glad that I told him that I felt this was the third time that he betrayed me. That really felt good to say...heck, all of it did...

I'm really happy that I "got" that listen, repeat, and validate thing down...LOL

I was reading something and was wondering if that feeling I had when I was listening was loving detachment b/c I really get it that it's about him and not me...I get the whole reason I need to concentrate on me...I even admitted that I would take on his mood whan he would walk in the door and be in a bad mood from work. I said that I would take his mood personally and thing that he was mad at me or I had done something.

It felt so GREAT to admit those things about myself...

Well, thank all of you who have contributed to helping me find these things within myself...I don't want to name anyone b/c I don't want to forget anyone...LOL

Hey, Rin...welcome to your new week...where anything can happen.

You were O&H...how terrific! You got the rush from being O&H for no purpose other than to speak, to state your truth. I think you now see where this is a REAL payoff inside you...no more fake ones.

And yes, realizing how much of what isn't ours that we take on, it's a wow moment. I hear you, dear sister!

And may I hazard a question...do you think the O&H was related to the SF at all? Hmmm?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, that ol' listen and repeat, validate and acknowledge...powerful stuff, huh?

(((Rin))))

LA

Wow, Rinder, thanks so much for sharing all this, I'm so glad you stayed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I started reading your thread and AmI's originally because you had LA with you, and really I read all I can from her! If she had a book, I'd buy it, I bet it wouldn't be all text, either, that it'd be beautifully illustrated, with like watercolors or photographs. And if I didn't get it all the first time, that'd be okay, because I could come back and post and ask and see how people use it in their lives, and it would all become clear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But I am learning so much from you and AmI, too, from the questions you pose and the answers you come to.

Thanks again for sharing!

Well, it surely created intimacy between the two of us. It created a connection ...I think that we both felt understood for once...so, did it relate?...heck, yeah!

I owed alot of what I couldn't validate for him...being controlling...I thought he was crazy...you know I did...I couldn't/didn't want to see that...I didn't want to see how I "had" to have things my way or no way...

I'm sure that was a great feeling for him...

I do have to realize that I am so far ahead of him with coming to terms with myself...is that DJing b/c I'm not sure where he is until I ask?...but then again I don't want to ask him...do you see your part in the downfall of our M? Aside from the A...

Thing is I didn't do it to give him validation...I just did it because that's what I saw...

WH is still talking about the future...trip in Nov., next year, bonus time...

Thing is what do I do from here on...not expect anything? Take one day at a time? Continue to check on him? I can see the things that he HAS done...staying home...telling me where he's going...

I'm trying so hard here...LOL...very powerful stuff! LMAO

One day at a time?...

Thanks LA, you're the BOMB! The sciznet! LMAO I'm always proud to share with you!

Excuse me if you don't want me to intrude, Rin.

I may have missed this.

Have you guys done the NC Letter?

This is coming from Mimi, who had some of the best SF with my H ever when he was ACTUALLY LIVING with the OW....

Sorry and embarassed to say this but it is the ABSOLUTE truth...Fessed up on this on this very forum....

I ask this out of CARE AND CONCERN for you...

I pray with all my heart that your H is being sincere...

I wish you all the best...

Rin,

Yes I did own my stuff...beginning 9/25/04 and have been ever since...keep discovering more, now and then, when stuff feels "old" or I feel the pull to a certain perspective. And I own it aloud to DH, apologize and amend. He has begun doing the same...

What do you do from here? Definitely do not dig or ask...he knows he can say...he showed you that he knows by doing it...no digging. Be okay that you don't know where's he at, ahead or behind...because that's his...you know where you are...still getting what you think you got, again and again...which is the process of growth...not "Eureka!" and then not doing it ever again...

Your boundaries remain...and it's up to him to choose to respect them or not...that hasn't changed. What you're experiencing is sharing your stuff...and being shared with...the antithesis of controlling...

That's the incredible beauty of ownership, Rin. Yes, one day at a time...you know that. Staying present...no future false payoff dwelling...and yes, keep checking because that is you about the truth...the truth of his choices and actions.

Big part of what I experienced was my WH not telling me of contact...and I believe this is a huge part of the recent betrayal you experienced. You did fantastic telling him what you knew, that he did intentionally, knowing you would check. Continue checking. You're doing it for you, not to control him.

LA

Guys..tell me if you want me to butt out..but I am reading since it is on the forum...

I have a question.

LA, are you making a distinction between the behavior and conversations of a WH and your DH? Do you consider LA's H no longer to be wayward.

Relationship talk..not good for a WS..

WSes are foggy..can't handle lots of deep, analytical conversation...

WSes lie..use the openness and honesty of BSes..for their own purposes...

Do you see where I am going with this?

I feel absolutely OK for you guys to tell me to butt out since this may be a LA/Rinder conversation only...

Let me know, though..in case I need to stop following along...

OK?

Hi, Mimi! I was just thinking about you this morning. Wondering how you were doing and you posted. LOL


No! Sure haven't!


First, Thank you so much fro looking out for me...Second, that makes two of us...LOL...

I went home for lunch and he hac straighten up around the house...picked up his clothes...AND my clothes...I was wowed! He hates folding and picking up clothes. He says my clothes are like doll clothes...right along with the kids...

OH, he even toook the garage out last night to the road!

LOL...I'm kind of on guard right now that's unusual behavior coming from him...or more correctly speaking...rare behavior from him.


Mimi, I'm happy to have you around; however, you are a little to strict with MB for ME. And Please, I'm not bashing by any means...I understand and accept your position...it's just too much for me...I feel overwhelmed some...

The thing that's great about the forums...is you have the choice to take what you need and leave the rest! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Please all I ask is that you continue to be supportive of me. Just know that I feel that I need to use MB more of a guideline...it feels better to me...

IMHO, I have huge issues that I've never dealt with for the abuse in my childhood...actually, I thought "I" was fine. I'm seeing different...

I can only hope that you understand! Thank you for being you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Rin:

I understand more than you could ever know.

I have MAJOR, MAJOR childhood issues..am ACOA..was emotionally/physically abused...have been estranged from a lot of my family..BLAH BLAH BLAH...

I recognize that I am in a different place than you on this.

I had a wonderful individual therapist and was in therapy for a few years....10 years ago...

I have lots and lots of INSIGHT into myself and into my past issues...

Maybe it's because I'm older than you are..I'm not into the analysis and gaining insight into myself much anymore...I recognize that..

I am more PRACTICAL..BEHAVIORAL..fix it and GET OVER IT NOW..I recognize that..

I'M A MIDLIFER!!!

I don't know your age but I bet you are about 10 years or so behind me...

I feel like I'm running out of time and now am focused on FUN, FUN, FUN....

Know what I mean?

So that's why I like MBers. Tell me what to do and how to fix is more my style NOW....

La- Thank you for all the great support...I'm trying...Lord knows I am...

I just got off the phone with the lawyer finding out about fees, asking what I needed to walk in there with...what position I can take...restaining order (should I need one)...I told him I was studip for giving him so many chances...

I know, please no 2x4, that's not something I do to myself, but sometimes I feel that way...

So, I've pretty much got all my questions answered...and I know what to do if/when I'm ready...I hate this pendulum... and I'm not going to think about that right now and get all worked up and waste good energy right now...

I need to stay focused...I've been going great and I feel like if I continue on this path I will continue to do well. I'm going to continue to work my program because that's a large part...

I honestly thought that my childhood didn't affect me but I can see that it did...very deeply MOF...

I guess what's right for me if I had to is I'm Plan Aing and I get it...Plan A is for me...WH/DH, I don't know...happens to just be benefiting from my improvement as well as the kids...

Okay...oh, I wanted to ask...I'm still looking for a sponsor...but how to we go through the steps..what's the progress? Or can you answer that here? Should I wait and ask next meeting?


LOL- Mimi, you could be my mom! LMAO...I'm 32! I hear you!