I think that NC should be something that she actively pursues, not something that "just happens" because of the circumstances. Her reply above simply indicates why there is NC between the two of them now. It does not indicate that NC is something that she's going to enforce by any means possible. IOW, I'd have been more convinced if she had replied something like "I am not in contact with him now and I have no desire to be in contact with him ever again. And if he tries to contact me, you'll be the first to know."

But YMMV...

Could she be afraid that HTW will forever make her life misserable because of what she has done? Ie: Won't be able to truly forgive her?

Ask the other ww's and fww's.....Mrs. Dubya? Whats your take on this?

Wow Hope!!! I'm busy right now....but will catch up and post later!!! Very proud of you! Our sitch's. will end up the same, ultimately......BETTER PEOPLE we have become!!!!! I'll pray for your marriage!
MWIL

Just a word of caution here. Everyone is jumping in and giving advice based on THEIR feelings, which we all know, in a BS are somewhat tainted by their own problems. A WS is NOT thinking rationally and does NOT make decisions for the right reasons. IMO, the best that can be hoped for is the right outcome. Once the fog clears, maybe even years later, the WS becomes a true FWS by understanding what happened and how to prevent it. But early on, asking for a chance to talk about "us" and admitting to NC, whatever the reason is cause for great hope. Don't worry about why there is NC, just find out if it is true.

HTW,

If the primary condition of breaking Plan B was NC between WW and OM and that has now happened, then rejoice in the opportunity. Be careful that you do not "raise the bar" and want NC "because". I'm not saying run to her and accept her back, just don't up the ante on her now! If she is truly in NC w/ OM, she will rapidly begin to miss her old life and your job is to make her realize that it must be better or nothing without killing HER hope.

OTOH, if she starts down the road of "Why can't we just be friends and call the M over," then Plan B is still there to return to.

You can't get to the end until you get past the beginning and this, IMO, is at least a great chance to begin. If the purpose of Plan A and Plan B are to bring the A to an end, then this may be the proof of the concepts. Be careful that the skepticism of dealing with our own fog speaking WS does not prevent us all from seeing that.

HTW...Hang in there, man, and tread lightly, but, this may be your best chance yet!

Mark

I've long agreed with Mark1952 that PROJECTION runs rampant in the forums, and you must take advice with a grain of salt. True objectivity, as we learn in scientific studies, is not humanly possible.

Some folks are a bit better at it than others, especially depending on the subject matter.

Personally, it's my humble opinion that HTW has every reason to have hope, and I just hope you, HTW, continue to take it slow and try to be a support to your wife while she works on becoming a Former WS. God bless your marriage.

Mark, believe me, it is much more than that; the advice is based on LONG EXPERIENCE and not feelings. I don't agree that the advice from BS' is "tainted" at all; no more so than anyone else's. HTW has every reason to be VERY cautious and he has been here long enough to understand this. He has witnessed other false recoveries.

Rarely is a WS ready to reconcile at the first overture. [this is her second attempt, after all] One of the most painful situations is to see a BS get massacred in a false recovery with a WS who was not ready. Be assured that all of this caution is very warranted, because we know what can happen.

That being said, I have much confidence in HTW, because he has grown so very much in Plan B. He has a full grasp of the situation and understands the pitfalls clearly. I think he will use good judgment and will act to protect himself if he sees fit.

Ok, I just received a reply from my WW that we are on for Saturday night. She said she doesn't want to hurt me again and she doesn't want to be hurt either (not sure how I would do that..any insight?) and wants to take it slow to see if we can overcome our differences.

I feel good about this but will keep my quard up as I know this will be dance. She is different this time...I can feel it and I just hope I can pull her closer to me using MB principles.

I've learned ALOT over the last 16 months and will now apply what I've learned. I won't hesitate for a second to go back into a dark Plan B if I see she is still in contact with OM or using this as an excuse to relieve her pain.

I read that as meaning she doesn't want you to mention or draw reference to her infidelity.

Then that would fall in line with me holding her A over her. How do I deal with this if I need to eventually find out details (i.e when and where). And how to I seek transparency when she might take it as using it against her?

Set groundrules and explain in a loving way why you need them to be in place.

Hope....baby steps....you both know that her actions must be addressed. How and when you do is going to be critical for both of you. I think that you two need to address a pile of issues including her actions.

Recall my story....I found out about her A shortly after I decided to try and reconcile...after having been dark...after dealing with my own fears and resentment for how our entire divorce went down....then....I find out she had an A 4 years prior to our D. She lied about details, just about all of them...and it was a long drawn out PAINFUL process.

My advice to you is to have a commitment from BOTH of you to address the issues at hand. One of those issues is her affair. There are others but right now look at where it brought you! A new home, a different life style, loneliness, pain and hurt...brother it is not going to go away in a week. Tell her how she terrifies you because of how she crushed you...and that through all that despair she made it worse...and that is why the topic MUST be addressed...

Remember I told you that she found an e-mail to someone spelling out how I felt now? How I would never forgive her actions, I accept them for what they are. That I will never blindly trust her (or anyone). About how close I came to bailing because I caught her in stupid lies about details...how I don't know that I believe I was told everything???

The topic of her affair will never be a good one...what needs to happen for both of you is to accept that it happened...and that there's reasons why you're both in pain because of it. It's an ugly topic that can't be buried....

My advice is to take the approach that you would take with a new courtship....get her commitment and tell her what you want...and that it is important to deal with how you BOTH feel about her A...you looking for "humbleness"...may be a form of resentment rearing its ugly head....and trust me....I know all about that resentment...

Hope that helps....

Consider that it may not be necessary to delve too deeply into the details of the A. For this meeting you should sit down and write out a plan, keep it to two main points. She is a WS and will not remember much. And as someone said earlier in the thread, she may not interpret things the way you do. 1) You should discuss how to verify that the A is over. 2) Re-iterate your boundaries. This has to be talked about, the A is what got you in this predicament. I would keep the rest of the evening light ... almost dating light ... You set your timetable. You set the time that you will leave. Leave with control of the situation. Also speak softly. Soft enough that she has to concentrate on what you are saying.

The third part of your plan is to actively "listen" to what she is really trying to say.

HTW consider that she is still a WS. Believe none of what you hear and only 50% of what you can observe. The Harley's suggest that most affairs last anywhere form 18-24 months. This seems to be falling in line with that fact.

Nice to hear the recent turn of events. Thread slowly.

Good luck

Quote:

"
Then that would fall in line with me holding her A over her. How do I deal with this if I need to eventually find out details (i.e when and where). And how to I seek transparency when she might take it as using it against her?"

Trust me Hope, that time will come....a ways down the road. The details, and all that will come once she feels "safe" with you again...safe meaning exactly what your intuition said at first...not "holding this over her head."

You must if you decide to take her back, forgive her...and once you do....be done with it, unless she wants to talk about it. Nowhere in your Plan B letter does it state that she must disclose all details....but you most likely will get them...just get to a safe place first.

First date......to he!! with ANY relationship talk...surprise her by making her have a good time, with a calm, confident, relaxed Hope!!!.....this is YOUR opportunity to sweep her off her feet!!! Do something (come up with it in your mind) that you know would provide her with lots of laughs and no pressure....fun with you!!! Jump back into Plan A....if you want your wife back and the Plan B conditions are held.

More later.....
MWIL

Hmmm. Maybe MIM is right. I thought something different.

Didn't you once say, Hope, that your W rarely gave people a second chance? That once they hurt her, she would cut them out of her life?

Maybe she has a hard time believing that people can change... believing that if given a second chance, they won't burn her all over again. In other words... maybe she doesn't trust that your plan A was for real... that you have really changed... and that you are willing to address the pre-A problems in your marriage.

Maybe she's missing the HTW who left coffee's for her on the counter and gently covered her with a blanket while she slept on the couch... but she's not sure whether he's real or a figment of her imagination... and she's afraid to find out.

Either way... I really like MWIL's suggestion. His plan will give her more evidence that the "new and improved" Hope is real. If she really wants to try... but is afraid that your marriage will go back to it's pre-affair state... it will help ease that fear. If she's just testing the waters or trying to set a "friendship" trap... it will give her more to think about when you slip back into plan B.

Rooting for you, Hope!

--SC

HTW, if she does that, then you will know she is not ready to do what it takes to repair your marriage. I would simply ask her what her plan of recovery is and use that as a starting point. You don't have to commit to anything unless she can demonstrate she will do what it takes to redeem herself and invest in your marriage. You are under no obligation whatsoever to let her back into your life if you aren't absolutely convinced she will do what it takes to repair the damage in your marriage.

Just take it slow and easy and see what her plan is for recovery.

First, HTW congratulations. I do not know if your M will be saved or not, but many folks never even get to THIS point, so I'm happy for ya!

Second--can you believe I came out of lurkdom to post on here? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Finally, I have a practical suggestion for you. If you had made a HUGE mistake and done something that made you feel like a dirty loser, even if you were actually, deeply sorry for it...would you like your spouse to keep bringing it up? No, of course not. But by the same token, you need to hear something that is finally THE TRUTH coming out of her mouth, huh...even if it is painful truth.

So I have a practical suggestion. I suggest that you consider setting a "daily limit." Here's an example of what I mean. You and WW set a number that you both agree on (POJA) that is the number of affair questions you can ask her per day. Let's say three. You can ask her THREE affair questions per day and she agrees to answer truthfully even if they're painful. This way you get some of the "truth" that you need and even transparent answers to some of the things that were bothering you...and she knows that there's a limit to the pain she'll have to endure. (In other words, it won't be an hours-long, all-day grilling.) This also limits the amount of pain YOU will have to endure, because believe me, some of the stuff you're going to hear is going to hurt you to the core.

In conjunction with my suggestion, I also suggest that you two agree to the "safety in honesty" agreement. Here's what I see happen time and time again. The BS literally BEGS the WS to tell the truth...the WS is hesitant but finally decides to risk it...they tell the painful truth...and the BS completely EXPLODES over it. The message this sends to the WS is that it is not safe to tell the truth. BUT!!! If you two agree (POJA) to the "safety in honesty" agreement, you agree that as long as either one of you really tells the truth...that no matter what is said and no matter how angry you may feel AT THE MOMENT...you agree to say, "Thank you for telling me the truth. That was hard to hear and so I need a little time to myself."

So I'll be praying for you and WW this Saturday. Let us know how it goes.

Some great stuff today that I'm trying to absorb from everyone as I get in the right frame of mind for Saturday.

MIM, I know she hates it when I bring up the A and said it drove her away from me.

jm, I let her know that I ask those questions because I don't want to be hurt again. I think she understands but it still hurts her to have me ask them. This will take time.

smomw, as always your story and input has helped me more than you know. I am forever grateful you have been available for me.

Patience, I like the idea of leaving on my terms and in control. I don't want to get heavy into the R-talk but have a feeling she will try so I don't know if I should let her go and just listen or ask her to save it for another time as I just would like to spend some happy time with her.

UVA, thanks for the support my friend.

MWIL, I have a feeling I will going over your thread alot as I try to plan A my WW back. I'm still amazed how you went form the cat to the love of her life again in only a few short months. I plan on keeping light and easy on the R-talk. When I first got her to unsuccessfuly go into NC with OM last November she said she missed his "kindness". As much as it hurt to hear that...I learned alot from what she needs.

SC, good to here from you again and I am truly impressed at how much you remember about my story...really! I almost forgot some of the Plan A stuff I did for her. Some really good insight into what she may be thinking. Maybe my Plan did have an effect on her. I just don't want to come on too strong with plan A and would rather ease back into it so it feels more natural. Maybe meet some of her EN's on Saturday and no LB'ing...then take it from there.

Mel, slow and easy will be my theme for the night, but what would you suggest if she insists on heavy r-talk?

FWJC, glad I pulled you out of semi-retirement as you always provide me with some very insightful ideas. I will try to make her feel safe and be honest with her. Thanks and stay un-retired for a while.

My WW just asked if we can postpone Saturday night's dinner. Back to plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Did she say why? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />