Mimi, here is a post from StillHereMakingIt that explains P/A behaviour very well. I don't think your spouse is truly P/A and I'm happy for you on that, but you must understand that this stuff can make the target of it just damn near suicidal with rage, pain and frustration in a way that you'll never understand if you haven't been the target.

Understanding what this really is has been a godsend for some of us. It's no different from people whose WS are alcoholic and suddenly find AlAnon - at last everything makes sense.

Also, Mimi, the Harleys may not use the term "Passive/Aggressive", but if you read their book *Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders," the Freeloader is described in virtually the same way as someone who is P/A. They're just using different terminology.

You might also want to look at "The Boomerang Relationship" link in my thread.

****************************
Passive aggressive is a very frustrating defense mechanism some people have. And I think we all are to some degree, but some use this to a VERY frustrating degree. I am married to one and spend much of my day GROWLING about his behavior.

From what I've read, his general attitude os one of "You've hurt me, so I will get you back for that". The insidious part is that they have been doing this since childhood so they don't even realize they are doing any longer.

+ They will promise they will do some unpleasant task, but then when the time comes will have 'forgotten' or come up with another excuse to not do it.

+ If they feel they have been dragged somewhere or to an event they didn't want to go to, they will sulk and generally be bad tempered.

+ Will not discipline children so you end up being the 'heavy'.

+ When you become angry about a situation it is implied or used to blame you for their behavior (e.g. "I would talk with you more if you wouldn't yell so much.")

+ Things that are important to you (like ENs) will be forgotten or ignored. (My H knows my family is important but will pout and sulk whenever we spend time there).

+ The more you remind him of an important EN (another is converstaion, I love to get email, letters, phone calls) the less likely you will get those things. Withholding the things you want to get back at you.

+ Will hear everything is 'fine' or that he is doing 'OK' when you know there is something up.

+ Recently my H has been agitated because I have spent less time doting on him or spending attention on him...which makes me think he has been behaving this way all these years to get attention.

+ Withholding important facts...phone messages, plans. Not giving full details about plans and then blaming you for it not working out 'I thought you would know...'

+ Answers to questions or confrontations are "I don't know", "I forgot", "I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say", "What do you want me to say?", or changing the topic.

+ Avoids conflict at all costs. In arguments will leave the room, or stare blankly refusing to engage.


There is more...but these are the behaviors I have to deal with every day. It is EXTREMELY frustrating. I don't feel like I have a partner, but a person who is working against me...yes, a power struggle, but he does it in such an underhanded way you are lulled into thinking it can work out, or that he is working on things.

Where does it come from? Growing up with a PA, or not being able to express his emotions when he was younger (after all, boys don't cry, suck it up...)

Any of this sound familiar?

I think I fixed the link above, but if not the websites are...

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

and

http://www.pa2.homestead.com/Sitemap.html
************************************************

And this is from a post of mine:

P/A behaviour is using PASSIVE and seemingly harmless actions in a deliberately AGGRESSIVE manner to control, manipulate, or just plain hurt someone else.

If you ask them to DO something and they seem to make a point of NOT doing it - forgetting, dragging their feet, making excuses, etc. -

If you ask them NOT to do something and they seem to make a point of DOING it - it's a coincidence, you don't understand, I didn't do it to hurt you, I thought you knew -

That's Passive/Aggressive behaviour.

People do this for several reasons:

1) They have a pathological fear of being controlled or consumed if they become a partner to someone, so they control you before you can "control" them.

2) To do as they please and avoid the consequences.

3) All of the above.

Practically everybody in an affair employs P/A behaviour, but some are a lot worse than others and keep it up throughout the relationship and throughout recovery in order to continue controllign and punishing the BS.

Recognizing this is the first step to sanity and personal recovery. This P/A stuff will leave you stark screaming crazy if you don't understand what it is (BT, DT, GTTS).

OY, this is what I've been trying to express. Almost everything on the list from StillHereMakingIt's thread is pertinent to behavior my WH displayed waaaaaay prior to his A; before he even says that he was unhappy. As long as it is HIS control or decision, things are fine; as soon as it is a request of mine, I get the big SIGH (literally), or he forgets it or generally disregards it until I bring it up again. Now that his A is loooong over, he stalls on things still. After our last separation, I went to lawyer to set up an LSA (this was mid July). I sent LSA within two weeks. WH did not get a lawyer until late September, and talked about changes he would like to make to the document. We discussed them, and I agreed with the changes. He said he was going to have his lawyer request the changes (formally). I haven't heard from my lawyer, nor him re: LSA. Dragging his feet, why? I don't really understand it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> This is very frustrating, but par for the course. For someone who has expressed his need for his freedom, ad nauseum, he sure doesn't show it.

Silent:

You know, the thing about being involved with someone who uses passive-aggressive tactics is that they can't do it without your participation.

Now, granted, most of us don't realize we're participating -- at least not at first. But once we do, the joint nature of this dynamic gives us an incredible ability to affect change.

I was looking for the words to explain this to you, and then I read something that Smur posted on another thread, and it said what I wanted to so perfectly that I will just steal her words instead.

"It doesn't matter where the spiral is broken or who breaks it. IMO its either a downward spiral (pain/blame/inflict pain/blame/.....) or an upward spiral (pain/acknowledge/acknowledge/better feelings on both sides). So how to get from spiral A to spiral B... someone has to want to try. Sooner or later, you can see if S is going to jump in and do their part.

Its hard work to keep trying to force a downward spiral in the face of reasonableness. "

If you can see the passive-aggressive acts and know them for what they are -- your spouse reacting to his own fear and blaming you -- then it is easier to react with reasonableness. That way you can short-circuit your part of the cycle, the blame back and punish back sequence.

If you can keep that reasonableness up for long enough, it will begin to dawn on your husband that such P/A behavior no longer brings the rewards it once did. It then becomes more trouble than it is worth. And hopefully, he will realize that the upward spiral holds the true rewards.

I can't tell you whether is it worth it to you to try. But I can tell you that you have a good chance of succeeding if you do.

Tru

There are certainly many successful approaches to helping individuals and couples.

I am not at all questioning the value of understanding life with a person who uses P/A tactics.

The problem that I am having is the comingling of theories, trying to make MB fit within that system or theory.

That is unfounded and not supported by the Harleys and I think that is not appropriate especially when a fellow forum member and not a PROFESSIONAL is making such assertions.

For example, Dr. Harley makes it very clear that he was unsuccessful in helping couples until he realized that an A is an addiction. Read any psychological textbook on the treatment of addictions and you will learn that the ADDICTION is always treated first before treating the underlying disorder.

How does the ADDICTIVE aspect of the A fit into this?

Mimi,

I'm certainly not going to break MB protocol here in order to effect change in WH. I'm in Plan B, will stay in Plan B. I'm merely speculating that IF WH ever did come back, and he IS P/A (which many signs point to) what am I facing in terms of using MB principles. It will be very difficult to get someone who is P/A to not be adversarial when asked to POJA. It is not in their inherent nature (P/A's) to try to agree. They feel fear when faced with any kind of request, as if you are trying to control them, and they will turn it back on you and bring you in to the dynamic, the 'un'reality.

I'm really just trying to understand my part right now. Above, in this thread, there is mention of the 'dynamic' between P/A and Spouses/Mates. I am part of that dynamic and can see where I aided in allowing him to push me into reactions to his behavior. I fit the profile of aiding and abetting him, and I must learn about myself here.

I've mentioned to you before that I never wanted to be separated, and really did all that I could to keep it together, but would somehow get goaded into his world, and tell him to leave. It was nuts, our relationship had taken on a boomerang effect. I'M part of the problem.

Now, as to this


Hmmm, I would think that the addiction may be to approval, to agreement. I would think that anyone 'new' wouldn't be 'against' you. But, I'm no expert <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

Let me take a stab at this...infidelity, in itself, is an passive-aggressive act...when the WS seemingly agrees to being married and has an A behind the scenes, so to speak. Passively acting as if they agree...and then aggressively attacking the marriage...

Which is why a lot of P/A behaviors are the same as the WS standards we've come to know and loathe...includes lying, justifying and portraying themselves as the victim of their spouses. Heck, you know WS's who believe their own partners made them have an affair!

The addiction part comes in because of the fantasy relief...they get a new partner, with a clean slate, who isn't holding a scorecard and a memory of all the terribly stuff they've done...which makes them an automatic soulmate (an affair word for "stranger").

The difference between an addiction and P/A behaviors--to me, an alcoholic takes a drink...it's there, it's a drink...or a drug...or porn...or something tangible outside of himself. P/A behaviors come directly from within...though they do use outside actions and judgments to justify their own, I guess. Still, it's not an addiction to a behavior...it is a conscious choice to inflict harm when they believe they are being controlled...so they can feel in control.

Hmmm...more similarities here than I thought. Guess it's the intentional part...and I believe Harley does address P/A Behaviors in Independent Behaviors and the Rule of Protection and Radical Honesty.

So yes, in affairs, you expose, call out truth...call them on their behavior.

For each P/A action, you do the same.

Take the no contact...well, it's like telling your nonWS spouse that what he/she did was P/A behavior...acknowledges what they are doing and commits to not doing that anymore. Contact is more difficult, comes from within. Still, it's close. And that's radical honesty. A boundary enforcement for the marriage.

I can see the addictive similarities in that they reach for this tool (behavior) when they want to change their emotions...they feel great fear so they clobber their spouse...fear of being controlled, judged, not defined as they want to...and it can be an automatic response to reach for it...just as their partners, once clobbered, may automatically reach for rage (AOs), DJs, hurting back to make them stop clobbering them...a cycle. However, Harley addresses these in Love Busters and nowhere does he say LBs are addictive. Well, P/A behaviors are LBs...kind of a few of them rolled into one, including IB and Lying (usually by omission), with a big dose of DJs (you made me do this, if only you hadn't made me agree to stuff I didn't want to do in the first place). Oh, add inability to POJA in there, too!

So, like affairs, being the reality bringer...this is what you did, you did it intentionally...this is my non-LB response, and taking out the bad guy/good guy, blaming stuff...you've got yourself a really great base for the respect Harley speaks of, don't you?

Like Plan Aing...

Actions...there are passive...where we agree or do not assert (we can be agreeing on the outside and plotting on he inside)...aggressive...attacking someone through various means...or assertive...not agreeing when we don't, and doing it respectfully, from respect.

What I saw YOU do, Mimi, with my very own eyes, was go through a lot of this...and come out fully assertive.

We all have P/A behaviors...some are more severe than others...I have agreed I was wrong about something, smiling, and later, striven hard to prove I was right. Or did the opposite of what I agreed with. Could be about a belief my mother had that I didn't...nonetheless, I acted passively, and then did the thing, anyway.

I said I'd do my chores...and then didn't...went out to play instead. Promised I would only watch the end of this tv show and then go to bed...and kept watching the next one.

What do you think?

LA

Mimi - it DOESN'T fit into the MB theory. And we've been saying all along that it doesn't.


I don't know who you believe made such an assertion, but I can flatly state that it was not me.


Which is exactly what we are doing!

Mimi, you have somehow missed the point that P/A behaviour in and of itself is considered an addiction by many psychologists. And - as I have said many times before - like any other addiction, like alcoholism or drug addiction or sex addiction, the MB principles cannot work unless and until that OTHER addiction is rooted our first. *Then* the MB principles can work.

This is what the Harleys say and this is what I have always said, too.


The addiction to alcohol can be treated through Alcoholics Anonymous.

The addiction to narcotics, sex, gambling or even shopping can be treated with similar 12-step program, each one tailored to the particular addiction.

The addiction to the power and control of employing Passive/Aggressive behaviour on one's spouse can be treated by the target calling the P/A on their behaviour every time they do it, along with other methods.

The addiction to an affair partner can be treated through the MB programs.

But none of these other addictions can be helped by the MB program. Any OTHER addictions must be FIRST be appropriately treated WITH THEIR OWN PROGRAMS AND TREATMENT METHODS before MB can work. This is 100% the Harley's own words.

Do you beleive everyone on the boards whose Wayward Spouses *also* need treatment for alcoholism, drug addiction and sex addiction should stop using any other method except Plan A followed by Plan B? That sure is what it sounds like - and that would be fine except that the Harleys themselves have made it clear that that does not ever work WHEN OTHER ADDICTIONS BESIDES THE ADDICTION TO THE AFFAIR PARTNER ARE PRESENT.

Apparently your FWH did not have any other addictions except the one to his affair partner, so maybe it's hard for you to understand those of us whose WSs DO have other addictions and DO need to clean up those addictions BEFORE we can go to Plan A and Plan B and have any hope of them working.

But for the life of me, I really don't understand why this is so very threatening to you and why you are so enormously uncomfortable every time any of us talk about it here. Did you not see the post today from "juniperstreet," in which SH advised her not to waste time with Plan A because her WH has been diagnosed as a sex addict?

Plan A doesn't work with a Passive/Aggressive person any more than it works with a sex addict or an alcoholic.

For the last time - we are talking about rooting out the very destructive behaviours that make it impossible for the MB principles to work - talking about a sort of pre-operative cleansing that WILL allow the MB principles to work.

How is that anti-MB???

I will not address this any more with you. If you really don't understand this, somebody else will have to take a shot.
Mulan

I think we need to be careful in not OVERGENERALIZING this. That's what makes MB's helpful and unique. It's about developing a PLAN and sticking to it without to much complex analysis of the situation. There's a lot of different problemmatic personality types and psychological disorders that play into this. I do not feel comfortable getting off the focus of this site.

For example, I am sure that both my H and I have obsessive-compulsive personality types if not disorders which have played into our difficulties. I have a history of depressive disorder. We are both ACOA...all of these are factors. I brought them up to Steve.

Steve said that this doesn't matter in doing the PLANS. PLAN A then PLAN B then RECOVERY regardless. He makes modifications in his coaching/counseling BUT he is a PROFESSIONAL at this.

I feel that there is lots of DANGER in OVERGENERALIZING.

Just look at you, Silent. You are questioning the MB APPROACH based on what you have read about P/A stuff. What if that is happening for lots of people who are not posting? What if they are saying to themselves that my spouse is PA so there's no use? I think this should be handled by a professional counselor.

My opinion.

I will be responding to your post, LA, when I get chance.

TruBluz,

I agree that i have been party to his P/A behavior. I get drawn in, and then look back and realize how I made such a miserable choice by following his lead. The problem now is, I really do want to work with WH, but we are no longer together; we are separated and I'm in Plan B. I'm trying to learn now of my behavior so that I am more prepared in the future, once Plan B is a whisper of my past and life goes on. I want to be able to deal with H/exH? better. The only thing that sticks in my mind from our last conversation (and it wasn't good) was that I believed he tended to bend his morals to fit his decisions, not the other way around. He shook his head in astonishment. I had never pointed anything about his core behavior out to him before. I did not speak it in a callous or mean way, just matter of fact-like. He began to cry. It was like a light went on inside his mind and connected to his soul. It didn't take long before the tears had dried up, though, and he moved on.

I feel like I'm cornered into making decisions, especially about the course of our tattered R, and when I do, they are never right. WH will now be able to say, 'well, maybe we wouldn't be divorced if you hadn't told me to leave'.

I accept responsibility for saying, 'I can't do this anymore, and we cannot go on like this, so if you cannot commit to working on recovery with me and rid our lives of OW long enough to see some good results (and that will take a long while) I cannot continue to 'date' you.' Oh, I could go on about the whole thing, but it's just a giant circle of no change.

Mulan:

I think your post is very helpful and I now understand fully what you are saying.



Come on, Mulan. You surely must know that I don't think this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I do have a question. How are you distinguishing PA behavior as a personality trait from PA behavior as an ADDICTION, though? Are you saying that it is EQUIVALENT to ALCOHOLISM?



I totally understand about alcoholism and addictions. My father was an alcoholic and this have affected me my entire life.



I'm not threatened. I said it confuses me. You have helped me with this in your post. Thanks. I had not been seeing this an addiction. I'm not sure that I do but I don't have to agree with everything or to understand everything. That's a lesson that I need to learn given my OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVENESS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



I really, really appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me, Mulan...

Like I said before, I was CONFUSED...

Mimi..willing to acknowledge this....

OK?

Mimi,
I said it above, I am following the Plan. I have a Plan. Now if I have some doubt that it (Plan B) will work in my favor due to some behavior in myself and WH, is that okay to express? I don't plan on dropping my plan based on what others post here. I'm interested in the subject because I feel affected by it. This does NOT change my course of action.

I'm in Plan B because I truly want to save my M. I have a very young son with this man, and I love this man. I do not love some of his behavior, nor how I behave in it's powerful presence. I'm not giving up or giving in. That's not going to happen.

I have a real fear that P/A behavior will greatly hinder OUR recovery. I'm asking how to help work with the behavior so that I can work in recovery, to help H feel safe. Believe me, if WH does come back and state that recovery is his goal and shows that he wants to do it, but then throws things at me like a tornado, I want to be prepared to react calmly and rationally.

I was feeling down when I started to become more familiar with P/A behavior patterns, and posted this question before I let my emotions quell a bit, so I may sound defeated intially. I'm not, I'm sticking to it.

LA:

I wanted to make sure to take the time to get back to you.

Mulan well-explained where the P/A stuff fits in..in the course of BATTLING an A..

I understand her as saying that for some P/A behaviors are ADDICTIVE..that keeps the BS from being able to use the MB PLAN which does not work for those who are ADDICTED to alcohol, sex, drugs, P/A BEHAVIOR PATTERN,etc.

I was concerned that folks, such as SILENT, would get off the course of working on the PLANS, thinking that MB would not work for them if their WS uses P/A BEHAVIORS...

I don't necessarily agree with that... given as you say that all of us can be passive-aggressive..

But if this is VIEWED as ADDICTION, I UNDERSTAND what is being SAID here...



OK. Got this, too... and AGREE...

However, it seems that you are speaking about a couple who are both committed to the marriage and need to work on issues..a couple in Recovery...

I'm not sure if the same principles..as you describe above can be applied to a R between a WS AND A BS ... I see the WS as being in their OWN ADDICTION to the OP..not able to be reasoned with..not able to hear and to understand what's going on inside..AN ADDICT FOCUSING ON TRYING TO GET THE NEXT OP FIX....A WS is tricky..in all DECEITFULNESS, may even say what you want to hear..just to be able to continue CAKE-EATING..being with both the OP and the BS....

Regarding me and my H, I think we both have more of a problem with being ACTIVELY AGGRESSIVE... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your response, Mimi...

I see discussion of P/A behaviors invaluable to the BS...not the WS. You're right. Not much on that front...but then, nothing is...except bringing reality and living in it.

See, that's what recognizing, stating and enforcing boundaries about P/A behaviors for the BS is really important...and for all the toxic fog sniffing a BS is subjected to...well, getting this crazymaking pattern into broad daylight can be very validating, freeing and self-supporting.

Would you consider that it's possible for BS's who have been in a P/A partnership pre-A, it may be more difficult for a BS to get a gripe on what was the S and who is the WS?

I want to say I believe our discussion complements Harley's stuff...he doesn't go in depth into boundaries, either...but it's essential within the rule of protection, isn't it? All four rules, actually. I think P/A behaviors are a subtext of Love Busters. And boundaries fall in that section, as well, don't they?

LA

I think you may have hit on why this is confusing for me.

I will TRY to explain...

My REAL HUSBAND who I live with NOW is very intelligent, insightful, open, opinionated, talkative, etc. and as you already know, is OPEN about expressing his ANGRY feelings....

He was basically this way pre-A and now is even moreso a TOUCHY-FEELY sort of person, very open about about his EMOTIONS.

My WAYWARD H functioned like a MORON. His thinking skills were POOR. He lacked INSIGHT into his BEHVAVIOR, was IMMORAL and was MEAN, MEAN, MEAN.....

When he was NICE, it wasn't REALLY him.. only a semblance of him...He was HAPPIEST after SEEING her or when he was on the way to see her...YUCK...

So bringing out his "crazymaking pattern" into broadlight would have gotten me nowhere. Shucks, he told me "SURVIVING AN AFFAIR does not apply to me"....Plus, he tried to provoke me into being anything NEGATIVE so that he could JUSTIFY continuation of the AFFAIR to himself.. He wanted me to be VERBALLY AGGRESSIVE, DIRECTIVE and CONTROLLING (I hate that word, but I did try to control him) which I definitely can be so that he could JUSTIFY continuation of the A to himself.....Plus, he could then go to her and complain about me and she would give him more ADMIRATION and ATTENTION..YUCK....

I maintained my PLAN A despite his PROVOCATIONS...

The difference between MY REAL HUSBAND and the WAYWARD HUSBAND (once I DISCOVERED why he was acting so weird) was VERY CLEAR TO ME.

I had to resort to a BEHAVIORAL APPROACH since he was functioning on such a LOW LEVEL..DEMONSTRATING my LOVE for him..DEMONSTRATING my changes..making sure not to REINFORCE his UGLINESS....or to go to his GUTTER LEVEL...

Mimi, I really get this...why this is so foreign to you...because your DH wasn't this way before or after his affair...

And so the behavior we're describing, PRE-A, for our partners, sounds EXACTLY like WS stuff...

"So bringing out his "crazymaking pattern" into broadlight would have gotten me nowhere."

If you had two or three decades of experiencing this non-WS behavior which looks JUST like WS-behavior, and found out what it was...YOU would have gotten to a place of freedom...would have seen reality closer, more up front and personal...it would have helped YOU PERSONALLY...PERIOD.

"Shucks, he told me "SURVIVING AN AFFAIR does not apply to me"....Plus, he tried to provoke me into being anything NEGATIVE so that he could JUSTIFY continuation of the AFFAIR to himself.. He wanted me to be VERBALLY AGGRESSIVE, DIRECTIVE and CONTROLLING (I hate that word, but I did try to control him) which I definitely can be so that he could JUSTIFY continuation of the A to himself.....Plus, he could then go to her and complain about me and she would give him more ADMIRATION and ATTENTION..YUCK...."

Very YUCK...very WS...because he wasn't this way before or after...and I'm really grateful that although my DH was this way before...deciding what was worth it or not for me to do or think or feel...and using me to justify choices...well, he is no longer this way now.

Nor am I.

Now, picture yourself in my shoes, before I knew what it was..."The difference between MY REAL HUSBAND and the WAYWARD HUSBAND (once I DISCOVERED why he was acting so weird) was VERY CLEAR TO ME." My lines were all blurred...I was convinced I made him hurt me, again and again...I took all the blame so I could feel some of the power...it was fantasy wrapped in fantasy and twisted with a really tricky bow...because my WH was a lot like pre-A DH...so I had to tell the difference BEFORE I could tell the difference.

And you're right...not knowing about P/A behaviors...I didn't at the time...and I look back with what I know now and can see how this knowledge could really help in centering the BS, getting them on their own solid ground, and to realize they are not the cause of the A, nor the cure...they have half the marriage, half the power, and are really important...and their grasp on reality may be very tenuous if they have been waltzing away in the P/A dance.

"I had to resort to a BEHAVIORAL APPROACH since he was functioning on such a LOW LEVEL..DEMONSTRATING my LOVE for him..DEMONSTRATING my changes..making sure not to REINFORCE his UGLINESS....or to go to his GUTTER LEVEL..."

I hope any BS reading here will put that on a sign and read it twice a day during their WS's affair...because they will be looking at their real power, best goal and fantastic healing right there.

Thank you Mimi.

LA

I have been thinking back on when I think my WH P/A behavior became more obvious, less subconscious. I think this behavior really surfaced after our DS was born, or maybe even while I was pregnant. It's not something that is situational (as an A is). The struggle began far before an affair; it began when H was challenged to do something that he deemed (after the deed was done) he did not want to do. He would not care for DS unless asked, and then would treat HIM like a chore. There was no joy emitting from him in being a father. Actually, he made the whole experience pretty miserable. I would hope that he would remember to help with the dishes; I requested that he take that on as his 'daily' job, so that would help lighten my load a bit. He would forget, or say, " I know that's my job, I just do it in my time, not as dictated by you". Inevitably, disappointment would abound, and the dishes would sit. It's many things like that; bathing our son, getting him in the middle of the night, getting up to fix him lunch, a snack, taking him 'out' with him when he ran errands. Nothing. The sense of relief I get from understanding this behavior is ENORMOUS. I would feel guilty for asking him to help me. GUILTY! Why, you may ask? Hmmmm, engrained pattern between the two of us, set up long before any affair.

He would walk like a duck and quack like a duck, but you could spy the zipper to his costume now and then. He wasn't one to be accomodating to others needs FIRST. He was deemed 'Selfish' by my family, in general. The behavior did not affect me as much until I was overwhelmed with responsibility of working full time, and childcare, taking care of finances, keeping house, clothes, etc. You all know the drill. He had a way of envoking this feeling of 'you chose to have a baby, and didn't really consider my feelings, so I'm not going to help, because I didn't choose this, you made me do this.' Let's just say, he was wayward long before he had an affair.

LA/SILENT/MULAN and any others dealing with P/A stuff:

I now understand what you guys are talking about...

My FWH is not like this..particularly different from your description of your H in your last post, Silent...

I probably WAS moreso the P/A one..highly AVOIDANT of CONFLICT with him...

I'm not like that anymore..

So I'm probably going to butt out of such conversations...

PLAN A, PLAN B, RECOVERY..I can talk about that stuff with ya...


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Silent:

I can see how the birth of a child might terrify a person with passive-aggressive tendencies. It adds another person to whom he is beholden, in some sense. One more human who will have a hold on him, and therefore perhaps will ask him to do things he might not want to do, or prevent him from doing things that he would like. One more layer of responsibility and control.

I agree with Mulan and LA that certain aspects of the marriage builders program will not work with a person still bound up in a P/A dynamic. Certainly, a person who fears control and engulfment will not be able to accept radical honesty or joint agreement, just to name the two most obvious.

But I think that Plan A/Plan B as a means to ending an affair would world just as well with a passive/aggressively inclined spouse as anyone else.

When we talk about ending our part of the dynamic -- meaning to stop re-acting with anger/frustration/rage -- isn't that a perfect example of Plan A? That seems like exactly the kind of change that Dr. Harley wants you to make in Plan A. And like other such changes, it is something that brings as many or more benefits to the spouse who is doing the changing.

Anyway, I see this as kind of a triage situation, myself. Breaking up the A is the first step. Once that is done, you address the P/A dynamic on both sides as part of recovery.

Tru

"...I was convinced I made him hurt me, again and again...I took all the blame so I could feel some of the power'

Yikes, LA. That one hit right between the eyes.

T.

Whoa! I agree, that has been our dynamic. "I ALLOWED this behavior and therefore I deserve this outcome." I often find myself saying, " I knew he was going to do this, or this was going to happen!" Well, if I knew (and I did), what could I do to change it before it happens? Better yet, what part of this is mine? I'm always dealing with what he does TO me, not really seeing that it really is something that he does to himself.
The behavior comes out whether I want it to or not; I give no allowances. The power I now recognize is to react in reality, not retaliation.

Thanks to all who have followed this and really given some very interesting insights into P/A behavior.

I am better now in Plan B. I'm really focused on myself, and that is what lead me to have this discussion. The thought of being without this man and moving on does not frighten me as it did last year. I don't feel 'clingy'. I think we clung very tightly, and when he let go, whack, I was on the floor. I lost little bits of myself along the way, bits that I enjoyed. I've changed inside and cannot go back to pick those things up, but I can strive to bring that sense of self back in to my life. Sometimes I feel a bit more DARK inside; like there are empty pockets here and there, but they just sit there, quietly. I view these as the deep sorrow from enduring loss. I got through it after my mother died, and I can get through this. I've got one heck of a great kid, and I have great friends, and I have me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />