For the past few weeks I have been asking W questions about the affair, Her story changes or more information is added my her and I ask more questions. Some things don't make sense and I question those things. W gets angry because of all the questions and this morning made the statement that it doesn't seem that I will not be able to get over the affair and maybe a divorce is better for me. Maybe it is..I'm so messed up right now, to be truthful maybe it is?

She gets aggravated anytime I ask questions about the A. I tell her my worries and fears about what happened, about things I don't know and this angers her. The divorce has come up in conversation more often now? What next, Do I plan ahead for leaving, getting my finances ready. What now?

No, don't get ready for divorce. In order for you to recover from this traumatic blow, you have to have your questions answered. Your W is trying to shut you up by threatening divorce. And it worked!

Does she want to recover your marriage? If so, she needs to help you recover by answering your questions openly and honestly. She owes you that.

So, instead of allowing her to shut you up with her threats, explain to her that you are trying to recover from this traumatic blow and in order to do that you must know all the facts. In order for her to rebuild trust, she can no longer have secrets from you. Explain to her that it is her job to rebuild the trust she destroyed and a good start would be honesty about her affair. You do have a right to know everything about her affair since these are pertinent details about your life too. But as long as she has secrets with the OM to which you are not privy, trust can never be restored.

After you tell her this, hand her this letter from another gentleman to read [don't bring her here, just copy and paste this on a WORD doc and hand it to her]:

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Here's the W response.

XXXXX,

I am not tired of the questions that I understand. But it seems you do not want to believe me, as if you are looking for a reason to end this. I do believe you are caught in the middle of wanting to work this out and wanting to let go. Maybe time apart will help both of us find what we really want, and let both of us know that if we do end up back together it is for love and not for the kids, our families, guilt or obligation. At the same time, are we getting tired and frustrated, do we want to cut and run as it gets hard. I do not know the answer, but it will be hard for me to turn around, I have been in a “We will fix this mode” for 5 weeks now with a very strong conviction to it. I do love you and above all I want you to be happy



I have already pulled the past invoices for phones and will bring home copies today. Still waiting to hear back from Brian. By 9:00 if he does not call I will get back on the phone with the phone company’s to see what can be done. Maybe if you can see when all the calls started it will ease your mind some.

Next time she threatens you with divorce in order to shut you up, I would inform her that divorce is precisely what she is going to get if she is unwilling to come clean about her adultery and give you some basis upon which you can believe and trust that it is over. Her "story-changing" and getting angry and fending you off with her threats are indicative of her spiteful rebelliousness and sense of entitlement to her sin.

I think you would have every right to end your marriage. I am not saying that this is the perfect thing to do, or that it is the best choice. However, she has "done the crime" and must be willing to "do the time" if her marriage is to be restored. If she is not serious about this, then I don't think you really have much choice. And, I don't really think you want her for a wife, either.

Tell her that you do not want a philandering, lying, selfish, and sinful woman for a wife. Period. You only want a self-sacrificing, loving, truthful, and faithful one.
You love her, but her past and her current actions toward you are reprehensible and are showing you clearly just what kind of wife she is going to be. With that being the case, you are far better off to cut your losses.

Lost, explain to her that it takes much longer than 5 weeks to fix the damage from an affair. It is as traumatic as the death of a child. Dr. Harley likens it to a RAPE. This won't be fixed over night. She is looking at 12-18 months recovery time IF she is completely honest and works hard to rebuild trust.

Seperation will only make it impossible for you to work on recovery. It will hurt your marriage, not help it. If she wants to leave, you can't stop her, but just know that seperation will HARM your marriage almost as bad as the affair. So, if she truly wants to REPAIR your marriage, she needs to stay there.

I am seething with anger. This just turns into an argument. She still has no clue whats happening here. I am just to forget the whole thing and swallow this pain and anguish. She holds that she is being truthful, but the facts just don't make sense and she can't provide any proof of anything...I have to trust HER word.

Hopefully this makes sense cause I'm loosing it...an quik...Plus trying to manage a department...What a joke this facade I lead

When looking to your WS, what kind of things do you propose that he/she should give you regarding the details of the A? It confuses me a bit. My WH said he thought i should know everything before I made my decision to work on us, he was looking for me to make his decision. But, I don't know what I should know or even what I want to know. The visions I created for myself are bad enough. Do I really need to know the full truth of how far things went? Am I asking for number of times, or ways or what?

W and I are in counciling and the counciler said to tell all, this way my imagination would not run wild. Heres the problem...W's story has been changing for the last three weeks and she got a little too graphic with the details for my comfort, which bothers me to this day.

Knowing all without the gory details is advisable

Thanks, I was afaid of that. I don't know how to sit, how anyone can sit, and listen to the gory details and not feel the pain fresh again. How do you deal with it while supressing the urge to LB? Especially when you've been in plan b and trying to save your love feelings for H.

Our MC says we should be at the "Caring and Tenderness" stage of our recovery. Unfortunately, I'm not in my "Happy Place" at the moment. I'm shaking so bad I can hardly type. I sure feel those "Flee" tendencies

I'm so sorry but thank you for your bravery to share here. We haven't started MC, I want to, he's sort of agreed to it. But he's still gone and trying to figure out if I'm still interested in us and seemingly wanting me to make the decision for NC with OW for him. He says that he understands the NC but what about the thoughts/feelings that he carries with him. WHat bunk!

I'm sorry you've found yourself in your present sitch. I totally understand the feeling of wanting to flee. Too often I find myself taking my Ambien to go to sleepat night so I don't have to think and continue to feel that way. It's so hard, I know! Try to stay strong and calm. That's about all we can do, and make ourselves better and care for our own feelings. I've slowly begun to learn that I can't change him, so why kill myself over wondering how he could do this to me and his children. I'm trying to put the burden of fixing him on him, not me.

Angie,

My bravery is not in existance these days, I seem to have bared my soul to the world, for better or worse. MC is good for the both of you. The thoughts and feels about the OP? If so WOW. I am truly sorry for your pain as I am six weeks into it myself. The NC is very important for your peace of mind and for rebuilding. I am currently struggling with NC in my M, my W just can not provide any evidence it has ended.

I've lost 20 lbs and sleep very little these days (I wanted to lose a few pounds anyway). I get angry and prompt fights due to the affair and my own insecurities. W revealed things about the affair that just tore me apart, but her story has holes in it that I try to rationalise. I should probably just drop the issue, but I can't, I have this mental image of them togther (Physically) and well, I can't or don't know how to deal with it. W tells me I should just push it out - Right!

The burden is his to bear not yours. Its his burden to prove to you - everything at this point - Trust, Love, NC..Etc.

Thanks for caring. I'm usually here on and off If you ever want an ear or shoulder

Be careful what you ask, the answer may haunt your memory for the rest of your days.

It is a very difficult dilemma you face; how much information do you really need to have a fulfilling marriage again?

The answer is so simple; you need just enough and not one once more.

You are five weeks past D-day and to me that appears in the very, very early stages of comprehending the level and depth of the betrayal. You have much yet to process and I might suggest to you and your wife that you both understand where you are; five weeks into a recovery is NOTHING. Take your time, there is no rush, let it all happen by following the concepts of “emotional needs”, “love bank”, “radical honesty”, and “eliminating love busters” (especially disrespectful judgments). Your posts are filled with disrespectful judgments. I suspect that she contributes her share. The bottom line is that you are on a path that hurts your chances of recovery.

If you really want to bolt then have at it, you certainly are entitled to quite this marriage. If however, you want to recover your marriage then do yourself a favor and give it a chance. Use the tools on this site and you will be rewarded regardless of the outcome of your recovery. Just about every wayward spouse has the fear that his or her partner will NEVER get over the betrayal. Just like you they need hope too.

She is not posting to this site but if she were I would suggest to her the same things I suggesting to you.

Ask for her help; make it as easy for her as you can, as it will benefit you. Ask her to help keep you "safe". Help create the condition where she feels motivated to make you feel secure that she is wanting to recover. Know and understand your objectives in this whole mess, i.e. what do you want? It sounds that you have a wife that could become a partner in recovery instead of an adversary.

Remember this, initially you can be a “fence sitter” but the time in near at hand that you commit to either divorce or recovery. Whichever way you choose, “take no prisoners”.

I hope you give consideration to what I have suggested.

Mr. G

Angie, I am sorry to hear you have been at this since July. I am still struggling with plan A. W insures me all contact has been broken, but I have no way to tell.

Phone records only show calls made by her (Not incoming calls from him?) She does't want to leave work. The records I do have show her calling him 7-8 times a day up to d-day?

My emotions are very scrambled, some times I don't even know what I'm saying to her. I'm desperate at times to get something back that is gone.

Our kids are older 25(D), 23(D) and 18(S) and want to be involved as to knowing whats going on as the girls feel they are adults...But no. Not a good image to leave for your kids at any age

Im rambling sorry

Personally, I think this is bad advice. "Telling all" should be limited to the facts of an affair's existence, if there has been more than one, that should be admitted even if only one has been discovered. "Telling all" should also
include solid proof that the affairs are over. "Telling all" should include details about PRESENT activities.

The sordid details of affairs that are in the past serve no purpose whatsoever in the rebuilding of the marriage. They serve only to raise 1000 more questions and give rise to mistrust, because the "story changes".

If I were counseling, I would recommend that limitations be applied to what the BS asks the WS.... and that "details" be
refused if they are asked.

cboy, it is up to the BS to decide what he needs to know in order to recover. Some need to know it ALL and others only want the general outline. What is most important is the WS is WILLING to answer any and all questions that the BS has since the BS is entitled to know everything. The WS should NEVER refuse to answer any question of the BS. To do so hinders trust because it means the WS has secrets with the affair partner to which the BS is not privy. Recovery can't take place in that environment.

So, his counselor is correct. However, it is LostNCrazy who should determine the EXACT level of detail he needs to hear.

Lost,

The dynamic in your M right now is normal as everyone here is telling you.

The problem with the mind is if information is left out your mind knows it. You may not know what is being left out and how important it is but you know it doesn't make sense. So as you said your imagination run's wild. When it does based on what you currently know your imagination is nice enough to make it worse case scenario.

When the FWW tells the details (I don't recommend gory details) It clears your mind to work on what is needed to work on.

The other thing, for me anyway, was to put this whole thing in the past. The definition of the past to me is no longer currently relevant. Well the A itself might not be currently relevant if you knew what happened. However the until you know the details it will be currently relevant to you.


And that is what Radical Honesty is about. The story never changing. How do you build trust when you can't trust.

Imagine this. You think you are recovering and then three years later you find out more details about the A. Details that in your mind you know if you knew them something would have been different. You don't know what but you know it would have effected the way you did things. It changed the way you would have reacted in certain situations. It would have changed the way she acted in certain situations. Then you realize because she refused to tell you the truth she lived in a way that now makes you beleive she was unremorseful or unrepentant. The reason the truth wouldn't come out is because she just didn't want to work any harder then she had to to recover your M. The lies or dishonesty made that possible.