Hello all!

I'm starting my own new thread here, continued from the P/A thread topic over at 'In Recovery', since H and I aren't in recovery yet, it was suggested I come here.

H is very P/A and that's why I was over there.

Married 10 years this Christmas, separated 2 1/2 years, no affairs or other people in our life. Still seeing each other, but he doesn't show me much respect, can be emotionally and verbally abusive (subtle as in P/A). I have to start antidepressants and learn to handle his P/A actions and to be stronger for myself and my marriage.

Nice to meet you all.
Elaine

Won't anybody say hello? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hello Elaine-

Nice to meet you here. I think I'm married to one of those P/A's too.

Although my WH is not in an A-his failed EA was exposed by the object of his affections, he has completely retreated from the conflict it has caused. We aren't even close to recovery either. I find good advice here even though I am not breaking up an affair. The alien/MLC brain is still infecting him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for saying hi.

Elaine - this is the kind of thing you must learn to stop doing. Remember what we said on the other thread about begging and how unattractive it is? I have no doubt that this is what you constantly do to your husband and you can be certain that it IS pushing him away.

You are an interesting enough person that you do not need to beg for attention. Have enough confidence to assume that people will respond to you when they can.

We ARE going to work on this, because in all seriousness this sort of thing is doing enormous damage to your relationship with your husband.

Mulan (resident tough love dispenser)

Elaine wrote:

Elaine, surely you know that this is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. No man who has the slightest interest in being married would allow his ill wife to move out and struggle on her own, much less LIVE IN HER CAR for two weeks.

Why do you think he "thought it was best this way"?


Yes, it is learned behavior and yes, it becomes second nature to them.


No, they are not afraid of being hurt - just of being controlled. Therefore, they control you before you can "control" them.


It's not stupid at all to the P/A. If he can make you get mad and nag and complain to him, YOU are the bad guy and HE is just the poor helpless victim. P/As love nothing more than to be the victim, because if you're a victim then nothing is your fault and you don't deserve any consequences.

Every time you blow up at him, or cry or beg or complain or act hurt, you are feeding this need of his to be YOUR victim and giving him exactly what he wants.

And yes, it IS immature. P/As have the emotional maturity of a sneaky ten-year-old trying to do what they want behind Mommy's back..

And yes, it IS cruel – but their mindset of "Nobody can tell me what to do" and "I will never let anyone control me" justifies this cruelty in their own minds.

And yes, it IS deliberate. They DO know what they are doing. Please don't make the same mistake I did and keep trying to convince yourself that "he doesn't mean to hurt you." He DOES mean to hurt you, because that way he can control you before you can "control" him. My own husband did this to me for years and got away with it because it never dawned on me that it could possibly be deliberate – but it WAS.

He does not do this any more.

Mulan

Hello! Perhaps this will be interesting to you. Enjoy!

CarolKH

Hi Elaine,

If you ask specific questions, you'll get more responses.

I would never allow even a casual friend to live in their car, much less a loved one. You mentioned you stay because you love him, I'd challenge you to reconsider that statement. He's not providing you with love, what you are getting is a false sense of security. You stay because you are scared, lonely, needy, insecure.... it's not love.

I am glad to hear you've seen a dr. and started anti-d's. Please, please keep trying to find affordable IC, I believe this will help you in more ways than we can. You're operating from a position of weakness, you're afraid at every step. You need to recover yourself, sweetie!

Welcome to GC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> - Dru

How do I start Plan A today?

H may call again, not sure how to react .. what to say, what not to say .... if I'm beginning Plan A, then I don't want to push him away, right?

I have so many concerns and fears right now, I'm afraid I'll do the wrong thing.

I called my family doctor again today, to push him to fax his recommendation for IC and MC to the C's office, and as soon as he does, they'll call me for an appt. I'm not sure if I should go alone first for IC to explain things, to explain the P/A so it's safer to have MC, or what. I know that we both need to talk to somebody together very soon.

I feel H needs to hear that he has to start to work on his place in all of this, so that he doesn't go on putting all the burden on me. Not sure he'll listen, but it's worth a shot.

I'm sitting here thinking he just called to see if I had herpes, cause he was afraid he might, and now he knows I don't, it'll be awhile before he calls again, just to 'call'.

Explanation to the VD scare: I started having a problem, and just wanted to be sure. As the virus can lay dormant for many years, it could have been from another time and place before marriage. I needed to know. Thank goodness it wasn't anything.

Oh yes, I'm also worried about the C's ability to know P/A behavior, as he has an uncanny way of making himself look innocent and the victim. If the C isn't forewarned, or experienced in this area, this could be WORSE for me.

So, what to do first?

Elaine

Hi Elaine,
Plan A plays very nicely into the anti-Passive/Agressive mode we'd like to see you get to.

YOU be the best you can be. You be polite. You take care of yourself and your home. You take pride in your accomplishments. You take charge of you and be a very good you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now, this will attract healthy men to you in droves. Your H may not qualify, but that is no reason not to do it anyway! Right? Eliminate LB's and AO's.

I'm not sure the flop-side of Plan A is applicable for you, right now? I"m thinking more of a little of the 180 plan... Are you familiar with the 180? You go out, be less available, do things that interest YOU... Like not answering the phone like you did. NOT being at his beck & call.

What do you think? - Dru

Elaine,

He can't put the burden on you...you have to take it. Please don't take it. Listen to Dru...focus on you, who you really want to be...a person who acts from their own standards...not dependent on how others act...eliminating LBs because that's not who you really are...which include SD's...

And if your H defines you in anyway, call him on it...calmly, drawing your boundary and then enforcing it...

What Dru is advising you changed my own life...I was really dependent on my DH...for all my ENs...and did the respectful 180...when I craved a compliment, I gave it to myself; I worked out and wasn't hanging around my H; I limited our phone contact to once a day; I made dates with female friends; when I craved affection, I gave myself foot rubs, lotioned up and accompanied it with gratitude to God for creating me, which is like a dual celebration...so I could balance myself...because I was upended on the dependent, and didn't want to be independent, but interdependent...and dropped all my expectations of DH except for my boundaries (no contact, etc.)...and did only listen and repeat and O&H (open and honest) drive-bys...using only "I" statements...and taught myself how to share who I was with another person, really for the first time.

I spoke and listened respectfully, stopped my DJs, my AOs and SDs. When I messed up, I did my amends and got my groove back...and most of all, I concentrated on choosing to love...choosing loving acts because I loved, not to get anything at all from DH...and this was a life-changing choice in itself. Plan A with a little 180. Stir well.

You can do this. You are made wonderfully by his hands...you truly are. Nothing defective, unworthy or wrong about you, Elaine.

LA

Dru,

OK .. yes I know the 180 and I hear what you're saying. I do have some specific questions though:

I've attempted this a little bit a few times before, and it takes H a few days to call me, if I don't call him. As I said, when he does, he'll not leave message for a few times, then he will and be angry, getting angrier and angrier each time, finally leaving message saying "If you want to talk to me, then I guess you'll call".

So I don't think my goal here is to make him extremely angry or ignore him completely, right?

I am beginning to work on things, eating low fat, walking each day I can, getting out more, shopping for a few new pieces of clothes, getting my hair cut this week. But I guess there are SO many little things I'm not sure about and may come up .. and need help with.

Let me mention some:

1. I won't lie, and I truly have very little energy to do allot by myself, so do I see him, go out with him if he asks, and if not, what do I tell him, if I tell him I'm busy too many times, that's not good either is it?

2. When we DO talk on the phone, what do I say? Do I still act like I love him as usual .. I mean I DO love him, but do I show it and be sweet, or do I not?

3. If I see him or go out with him, do I talk as usual, do I act interested, uninterested, what?

One thing I'm concerned about is, in the past, when I've told him that I was unhappy and that maybe it would be best if we stopped seeing each other .. and in anger said to him that I'm sure there are other men out there that would appreciate a woman like me, he would say, go right ahead, maybe they will. He also said that I was probably right, we weren't good for each other and we'd probably both be happier without each other.

He's even suggested on his own many times, that he didn't see any more hope for us, that we were too different, and that he could never make me happy. And he suggested divorce and just going out separate ways.

So I concerned about how I handle this. If I say the wrong thing, he MAY just give up completely. He may very well think I'm happier without him. And for now, my marriage is very important to me, and I truly want to preserve it if I can.

Elaine

Don't mind me, I'm just going to post when things strike me, cause if I don't .... I'll forget.

I think what's hard here is that I have so much in my head, so many thoughts, concerns and I go into flares very easily, so things get jumbled and don't always come out how I want to say them.

Besides him calling this morning to check on the results of my test ... he's not called again. I have the sad feeling that he only called to make sure HE wasn't exposed to it.

That makes me sad .. very sad. Tonight I'm feeling lonely and I guess it hurts that he hasn't called. I get to thinking and I wonder if he even does love me, I know men are different, but I guess everyday I want to talk to him, be with him, touch him. He can just do whatever and doesn't seem to need to connect with me. To me, that's sad.

I can feel my depression worsen tonight, partly because I feel he doesn't care, and partly because it's coming into fall and that's why it gets worse. I'm concerned about starting the anti=depressant, because I've been reading so many posts on withdrawal symptoms if you need to stop it, and they're horrible. There are many bad side effects too. I guess I'm not sure I can even BEAR to deal with ONE more thing, be it physical or mental .. right now. So I'm unsure If I want to start them.

If I don't ... I go on being depressed and sad. There are natural ways to try ... but I'm just too tired to bother to explore... 'sigh'.

Does it mean he doesn't love me or care, just because he hasn't called tonight?

I have to start working on my neediness too I know, so I'm asking that for the reason that I wonder if I expect too much from him sometimes. He says I do, he says I check on him so often, that he feels he's not trusted at all.

I guess I'm confused as to what is what with him/men. If they don't call ... how can they care? If they can go days without contact with you, does that mean you're not special?I guess I would think they would WANT to get in touch with you often.

so .. just rambling . but if anybody cares to comment, that would be cool.

Elaine

Find a balance, no angry is not the goal. Call him back in an hour IF YOU WANT, or let it go just twice before you call him back. Coy not cold, ok?


Excellent, excellent, excellent <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Great job, keep up the good work.


Again, balance. How often does HE initiate these outings? I'm guess it's not THAT much. Go when you want, and if you are too tired to go out, tell him your truth.


Think in terms of how you would speak to a dear friend AND more importantly, how that friend would speak to you. You care, you can act caring, but you'd not allow DJ's or AO's from him (And of course you've already eliminated yours).


Plan A... you be the best that you are. You ARE friendly, interested, nice, caring. You ACT that way. When his behavoiur does not warrent the attention of a kind, sweet person, you terminate the meeting. You ALWAYS act like YOU.


Not your problem. You act nicely, and leave when he's acting out. You are not being mean to him, and if he cannot tollerate NOT abusing you then he's not worthy of your time!

You cannot make someone love you. But you can act in a way that is lovable. That's YOUR power! Use it!

I'm gone for the night. Please take care of yourself! - Dru

THE 180:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow spouse around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life with or without your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what spouse will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with yur spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 5% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes

Elaine, I don't think you get this - until you get yourself independent of him for every day emotional balance, you will remain feeling sad alone, needing him to be nice to you, ill.

Do you know that the greatest contributor to CFS and most of the other stuff you have got is damaged immune system? Do you know that one of the greatest destroyers of the immune system is emotional pain?

So, we are trying to get you to see that you have to stop playing into his "victim status". it is a bit like the chicken and the egg. Which comes first?

Well both. As you stop running after every little crumb he drops for you to follow, like a trail to his P/A, (remember what happened to Hansel and Gretel when they relied on crumbs?), then he will at first get angry, he is going to suffer withdrawal. He needs to be a victim and so be able to feel powerful, by having the freedom to act like a jerk - (ever noticed how he jerks your emotional strings - wonder why we call people like him a jerk?)

Now - he can only do this to people he has got an intimate commitment with. Like wives? People in every day life just dump men who act like him to them, so he can't pull his little tricks on them.

How many years have you seen him as the one who always seems to be hurt by you, except you felt hurt in the first place?

How many people see you as an attention seeking woman. Only ones who see you interaction with him or hear about it. I bet people you meet daily who do not see you with him or hear about it think you are pretty cool. Isn't this confusing?

So when you are with a P/A spouse you feel attacked and they always manage to turn it around so we are the attackers and they are poor things.

Now let's get to God. The only person above your husband is God. So, your body is your temple and you have an obligation to God to take care of it, the flesh and bones, the immune system, the brain the spiritual and emotional part. This comes above being a wife or anyone else. Keep your temple to God clean and healthy.

What has happened, is that slowly, the P/A spouse drops into their behaviours that hurt us. We don't suspect and so we become hurt and yet unable to show ourselves or any others how we are hurt. It gradually creeps up on us with them getting worse and worse as we slowly succumb to it more and more and begin to react to the hurt and further fuel their silent anger which is the basis of P/A.

They grow up and do not mature emotionally, so part of them never learns to express anger or hurt and to make mistakes good honorably. They learn how to express the anger (which always covers hurt) passively, like the waiter who spits in your tea, or the plumber who inflates your bill, they do not say I am going to hurt you or I do not respect you, they passively attack you, and you never know.

They often marry people who can express themselves and then drive them to the very expression they cannot healthily make themselves.

So most have either dominating or P/A people in their FOO. So they learn that is how to deal with pain and what it produces, and they never learn to be healthy.

So the only way to heal you, is to become balanced. Do not ever react to their stimulus, whether it be anger or pleas, or the internal desire we have for them to pay us attention, to help us feel loved. It often feels like a contradiction to usual MB, but you have to show them they cannot play the game with you. They cannot be a victim at your expense.

So you must be very strong with yourself. We all (married to P/A) had to learn it, and it is not easy at first, you will slip less and less though, as each time you control your reaction and leave him to be responsible for his own phobias, you will build your self esteem and see him clearer and clearer.

I was in denial for two years after he TOLD ME what he was doing, to try to get me to divorce him, so he could have his A and STILL be the victim of me divorcing him. I used to say, "but I L O O O V E him, how can I not react to him, he has my heart, it is wrong to detach, we are married. Wah wah wah" So If I can get it - anyone can get it! LOL.

Read this three or four times, don't try to reply to all the other emails until you can read this and calmly see what it means for you.

Remember God puts you first, it is not neglecting a spouse to care for yourself and it is required by God that you take appropriate action to stop any attacks on you - even emotional, even from a spouse we love dearly. So stop worrying about what God requires in a wife. When you get yourself straight with what He requires of you as far as your own temple, then you can work on the spouse bit.

Withdrawing his "fix", from P/A H, is not disobeying God's ruling on marriage.


Linda

Good morning Elaine,

I hope you are doing well and had a good week! - Dru

Hi Dru,

I'm here, just been taking a few days off from posting to pray and think. I have a few experiences to tell when I come back .... in a few more days.

Wow .. I got thrown way down the list!

Dee

I sure hope you guys are still around ...

I'm really scared about something, let me fill you in on what's been happening:

Since I've been reading here and hearing what's been said, I've stopped calling him, taking more care of myself, upbeat when he calls or sees me, not complaining, nagging, or asking for attention. He's noticed the change. He's called me when I didn't expect it, etc.

We spent Sunday together and it was a really nice day. I was friendly, but a bit distant.

Yesterday I was busy most of the day, but then I started to really miss him. I decided to call, since I hadn't for a whole week. I couldn't reach his cell for several hours, this was from 4:30-6:30 p.m.

I took a shower and he had called twice. I called him back and he told me he had taken the day off work to repair a hole in the roof where a tree branch had come through. That was from 10-5 he said. I did ask where his phone was and he said it was in the van all day. I did feel bad he hadn't told me he was home ... he knows I like him to, or hadn't called me all day to come help or just be there, but I didnt' say that.

We then decided to meet for dinner. When I saw him, my stomach did a flip-flop! He was really CLEAN, and this is very unusual for him. His hair was realy clean and looked like it had been cut. He was clean shaven, his teeth were sparkling (he hardly ever keeps them clean), his hands were the cleanest I've ever seen them in years .. he's a mechanic. This was all just really bothersome to me, and I felt sick and couldn't eat.

I asked a few questions, trying not to sound suspicious, but at this point .. . I WANT to know if something is going on .. I'm just TOO tired and weak to do this much more, so I realy NEED to know.

BUT ... I also don't want to accuse when there's nothing there, because this is one of his biggest complaints to me, that I don't trust him.

I asked how he had gotten his hands so clean, and he said after the roof repair he had to use gasoline to remove tar.
He said he had washed his hair after too, and had shaved the night before. His teeth he had brushed real good too.
He never ever does that .. so it's really out of character.

There's more.

He got a little angry at my questions, so I stopped. We came to my apt. We talked about living together again, and he started to cry, saying he was scared of giving up his house and things going bad again, and him getting hurt. I could only tell him that I loved him dearly, and am sorry for my 'neediness', my nagging, my accusing and suspicions. I told him I've been learning allot about where "I" went wrong and have been changing that.

We talked allot, and this morning also, he started crying this morning too ... and was a bit detached and staring off, just said he's really hesitant and scared. It was hard not to take that as him thnking of somebody else, but it could very well be he wasn't and he really IS afraid of what he said.

How do I know? Am I reading the wrong thing into his cleanliness?

Elaine

Good morning Elaine,

That is a perfect example of how you are so very skewed about your relationship. You are too close to see it that way, so I want to be specific, not in anyway trying to be harsh, just clear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

You are questioning that he's clean? Wow. You're not even enjoying the nice stuff! That's a shame, too. Bad enough you have to worry about he bad stuff, but you arent enjoying the good stuff??? That's got to change, girl. You deserve a clean, nice smelling man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Think about him as a good friend.

If you had wanted to call a friend, you'd call, leave a message, and go about your life. If they didnt call in a few days, you'd try again. You would not track the # of days since the last call, then try to figure out what they've been doing. He's not your real H right now, you are seperated, so you cannot expect this from him. You need to remember this, ok? It'll help if you reframe it that way.

If your friend showed up someplace to lunch looking nice, you'd say, 'you look nice today!'. and go about the lunch.

You need to re-frame how you see this man and your relationship with him. He's not a super-close companion right now, he's the man you are seperated from.


You would not have grilled a real friend, so this was not Plan A behaviour. Not because he got upset, but because you were not presenting your best self. You're letting your anxiety get the best of you here. You've got to get ahold of your anxieties. That's part of Plan A.


Why? Who started this conversation? If it was him, you should have changed the subject, 'I'm not ready to discuss this, can we talk about it later? Wanna watch a show?'


Mr. Victim, huh? YOU are the one who has been hurt by his AO, IB, and SD's. See how he's twisted this into him being the poor victim with everything to loose?? You need to terminate these discussions quickly. Loose his house? That doesnt even make sense. He's really 'playing' you with this line of whining.


Discussing your changes is not very helpful. Either he can see the new, positive you, or he cant. Explaining plays into the neediness! Just be fun and smart, keep things light. There was no need for your day to get all heady like that.

I see this as him being stunned by your independance of the last week, and he responded by drawing you back into your old apologizing, and being needy. That means your new attitued HAS been noticed, so VERY good job! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now you just need to practice STAYING sweet, positive, and upbeat when he tried to draw you back down. That is what he is doing... he's refocusing your attention back on him! (A real 'friend' would not do that. Did he ask you about your day, ask how you've been doing?)

You are trying to rebalance the relationship. He wants all the attention, all the control, that way he can misbehave and still have you falling all over him. THAT is out of balance.

I think that really is your goal here: balance. It's going to feel scary for a while, but you see how it worked! You've thrown him off balance, and that's good, because his comfort zone was way too damaging for you. You both will have adjust to NEW comfort zones. This takes time, but it sounds like you are doing really good!

He's a great candidate for Plan A/B. Way to go!

Keep up the good work, and dont let him drag you away from your goal - Dru

Dru,

Will respond to your post soon, but just to tell you:

I drove to his house today and he DID patch the roof. There was an area that was about 4'x4' that was freshly tarred and repaired.

So that tells me he was telling the truth about repairing the roof, but of course, it can't be completely determined as to when.

I have to say though ... I don't feel there's anything wrong with what I did, because the checking into this is what I needed to do for ME. I had the weight of not knowing on me, and to find out he did the roof has helped.

Talk soon,
Elaine