Respectful,

I'm sorry I don't have more time, but wanted to send a quick response.

In short, I would recommend the following (a lot of which you are already doing!):

-- Be the best marriage partner you can be and use the best marriage tools & techniques. MB is ideal for this, and I think POJA and the 4 Rules are wonderful. Use them by "habit" in your marriage (without preaching or teaching about them - teach by actions and setting the example) and your H may start to follow. Speak and act in terms of doing what's best for "us" (meaning you and your H, or the entire family, depending on the situation). Obviously, the MB books are great for this.
----speaking of POJA, I want to address the "reading" example you gave...maybe next time your H says something like... I want you to stop reading anything, you could (calmly) ask questions to understand the "why" behind the request, then use the "why" to suggest a solution that makes you both happy. This ties into reflective listening, which is my next point.

-- do a lot of reflective listening...suspend your reactions, comments, thoughts, rebuttals, etc, and just listen, repeat your understanding and ask if you have it right, let him clarify or continue, and mostly just listen in a way that shows you are interested & focused on your H. There's a great book for this, but I forgot the title & author.

-- as far as dealing with the controlling statements & other verbal & emotional abuse, my counselor recommended several great books by Patricia Evans -- The Verbally Abusive Relationship - How to recognie it and how to respond; Controlling People (same author) -- Now, these aren't marriage recovery books, but they will help you understand what happens over time and how you can stop the pattern and start a new "dance." Use this in conjunction with MB principles.

-- another book I like that has already been recommended to you is Love Must Be Tough by Dobson. Like the Patricia Evans books, it will help you set healthy boundaries on how you are treated, and to do so in a loving, non-vengeful or judgmental way. It also helps explain that regaining respect from your H is important to recovering the marriage.

Last note -- keep some of these books to yourself for a while until things are better

take care

Neverthesame,

Thank you. I will focus on trying to understand why and listening.

I started IC in November, 2001, two months into the affair, and the IC recommended Patricia Evans' book, "The Verbally Abusive Relationship." I remember reading it and telling her that the book is about subtle abuse, and there's nothing subtle about "F*** you." In the book, it describes two approaches -- with the "Power Over" belief being what fuels verbal abuse. I remember identifying myself with the "Power Over" belief. In refusing to argue, in refusing to threaten, I think I am finally at the point of not being in a power struggle. I've given up the "Power Over" belief. What happened after the affair is I focused on following Harley's principles and trying to coerce my husband into following the principles. Not a good way to go.

As I have told my 7 year old several times over the last few months, when she has pleaded with me not to fight when Dad is angry, "Katie, it takes two to fight, and Mom's not fighting." I don't want my children hiding in laundry baskets anymore.

Another person recommended Love Must Be Tough, and I ordered it from the library. I'll look into tapes on listening. If you remember the name of the book on listening, please let me know. Thank you.

Respectful

I am spending the evening reading while my husband and son watch the movie that my son watched last night. It's not negative for me. It does, however, highlight the fact that the POJA can be followed with the result that everything done is positive for both but little or no time is spent together.

Harley has come up with two simple rules:
1) Spend 15 hours alone together each week meeting each other's needs, and
2) Follow the POJA.

Simple.

But if you lack a commitment to care, if you have other priorities in life,
that won't be the reality of your life.

I can be available. I can be respectful in that I don't try to coerce care, don't give my opinion unless asked, don't tell my feelings unless asked. I can be honest when my opinion is asked. I can continue to ask what he wants and doesn't want and change my behavior so that my behavior is positive for both of us.

It seems to me that these are the dance steps that would be followed if the other person loved you and cared for you and you loved and cared for the other person. My husband once said to me, "Just because I don't ask doesn't mean I don't care." To me, that statement reveals a lot. In fact, if you don't ask, you don't care.

Time will reveal what happens with him when I follow these dance steps. As he has told me, he is an adult and he can make his own decisions. Yes he can. I think it will be evident over time, and probably not much time, what the answer is to this question: "Is he now willing to care for me?"

When he broke my arm, it was because I was threatening to call this woman. I had just had surgery less than two weeks before, and I told him that if he hit me, he could mess up the surgery. His response: "I don't care", and then he hit me.

He certainly hasn't cared. But maybe I, by trying to coerce care, smothered what care was there. Going through this time, when he is sometimes asking and trying to reach agreement and other times trying to argue or wanting to do everything and anything but spend time with me, I think will help me to see the truth because, sooner or later, a new habit will predominate to replace the old habit of arguing. Arguing just created an abuse fog.

I'll check back in a month or two. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and prayers. "The truth shall set you free," and I am willing to face the truth.

Respectful

I am not sure I have ever posted to you, but all I keep thinking is you need to get a life. Your whole identity is wrapped up in being an abused wife or in being the victim.

I am not trying to be mean here, but what in the world are you teaching your children? Do you want them to grow up thinking a marriage is where a man and woman live together but hate each other? Believe me, the impression you give here is that there is no love in the relationship.

You are getting something from this relationship or you would not be still there. Maybe you need to evaluate what you are getting and if that something is actually benefitting you. IMO, what you are getting is not benefitting anyone.

I think it has come time for you to fish or cut bait. You either accept you will live with the conditions you are in or you leave.

The OW said the same thing to me. "Get a life."

To me, marriage is my life. I view marriage as a vocation and not just one choice in my life. "The two shall become one."

That is why this has been so hard for me, why I have stayed long beyond when others would have left. But there does come a time when I need to face what to do if disregard is the only response that is given to a desire to live out a vocation in which there is mutual self-giving.

Respectful

That is why I think this marriage will go one of two ways, and it will be evident over time. He'll either develop the habit of trying to reach win-win with me through respectful discussion of differences, or he'll not ask me how I feel and do what he pleases. His choice. His "free will."

He will do as he wishes...and you will accept that under the guise of being "respectful".

This is the very reason why MB does not work in marriages that are abusive and where addictions (alcohol and drugs) are prevalent. You have turned that MBW into what you want in order to stay in that marriage....and to maintain your victimhood. Before you went on this weekend, you stated that unless it created some kind of change in his behavior that you would leave the marriage. It hasn't created a change in him, you have just moved the line in the sand backward.

And...you certainly double talk him...



I assume that you meant "me" instead of him...



I just told him that I felt bothered WHEN HE ASKED if it would bother me if he watched football.

What kind of double talk is that? You are bothered that he asks you? Then...why should he ask you anything?

Color this any way that you want...its the same kind of behavior wrapped in a different color paper.

Your poor children are going to grow up to be so dysfunctional...they are surrounded by it.

JMHO
committed

Committed,
I'm not puzzled by your reaction because it was the same reaction that was given by my IC, who started counseling me two months after the affair started.

First, to clarify, it doesn't bother me that he asks me. I am honest when he asks. He asked me, "Would it bother you if I watched football on TV?" I said, "Yes." Later, he got upset, and I told him -- I answered your question honestly. I only told you it bothered me because you asked me if it bothered you. I didn't tell you that I wouldn't let you watch football.

After my IC got the impression that I was just settling for a marriage of disregard, I told her -- no. I am witnessing to the marital vocation of "the two shall become one." She has told me all along -- don't try to get him on the right track; figure out what track he is on and then decide what you are going to do about it.

I told her that I think I have a clear understanding of what track he is on. There are countless things he says -- like "trust my judgment", "forgive me for my humanity", "show care by wanting me to be happy in doing what I like" -- that point to Harley's Freeloader philosophy. He wants to do what he wants when he wants it without regard for the impact on me.

That is not a marriage where "the two become one." Now, what am I going to do about it?

Well, what I have done is eliminate ineffective approaches:
- angry outbursts
- attempts to convince that "I'm right and you're wrong", as he has described my attempts at talking about Harley's approach
- ultimatums with the threat of immediate divorce
- telling him what to do or what not to do
- giving unsolicited opinions
- telling my feelings without being asked

Where does that leave me? What can I do differently from before the affair, when I did show a lot of respect:
- I didn't make demands
- I didn't try to control him
- I tried to spend time with him (and got "Leave me alone")
- I wouldn't violate the POJA in that I wouldn't do anything he viewed as negative

What I did wrong was I was dishonest in my reply to questions like, "Do you mind if I...?" Of course, my dishonesty was very understandable. I was intimidated. He'd blow up if I objected.

Now I'm willing to be honest in my reply if he asks. If he blows up, that's his behavior, not mine.

The only change is, if he asks me, "Would it bother you if I watch football?", my answer is an honest "Yes" instead of an avoid-the-blowup-of-you're trying-to-control-me "No". That's it.

It's a dance. I have changed my dance step, mostly by giving up what my IC described as "ammunition" and what I would describe as "interference for his conscience."

What will this do? It's too soon to tell. I felt sad about how he treated me Friday night, telling me I was trying to control our son rather than trying to understand and reach agreement with me on our son watching a movie. This weekend has been a nothing weekend. He's been sick, but we did have plans to go out last night.

We did have a problem with his becoming enraged at our five year old this morning and telling her he'd spank her. I told him I'd handle it. I think that one place where I cannot just walk away is when he treats the children in a way that I think harmful. Other than that, he'll either decide to treat me with respect and care, or he'll just ignore me and do what he pleases.

I need to know. I need to know what changes come of the change in my dance step. The MBW didn't change his behavior, but it did change mine. If he becomes content with ignoring me because I'm no longer on his back, no longer nagging him, no longer chirping in his ear, how do I witness to the marital vocation of "the two shall become one"?

Not by staying with him, that's for sure. I can file for a civil divorce with a clear conscience.

Respectful

Procrastination by any other name is still procrastination.

If x happens then I will do y. If x doesn't happen then I will do z. But x doesn't happen and you still do y. You're still doing y - only this time it's "why" instead of y - sounds the same, means the same, looks the same when everything is put together. All I see happening is that you're getting very good at double speak with yourself. Your husband and your children aren't deceived.

I still don't see the respect for yourself. You might be respectful to him, but if you are not spiritually replenishing and nourishing the source of your respect (you), then your taker will see that you take care of yourself - and at that point, there will be no respect in your home - not coming from you or for you. Your taker is not on board with you on this - she can't be. You've got her nailed in a trunk, but you watch - the nails will start to wiggle loose - you can hammer them down, but eventually the wood will wear out from the pressure.

I've spoken to you before from the perspective of one of your children. My mother couldn't do it either.

And who knows what kind of marriage she would have had, if she had only believed in herself to not just settle for "not" being abused physically.

qoute: me, marriage is my life. I view marriage as a vocation and not just one choice in my life. "The two shall become one."

so, marriage is your life- not this marriage- not your relationship- not you- just a ring on your finger?

that makes no sense.

the real choice you are making is to remain in an abusive relationship because it is feeding something in side of you

you are choosing to be a martyr and a victim

how's that working for you?

EXACTLY!!!! This is precisely what I thought when you first put the blame on our Catholic faith which us Catholics did not accept. All I see here is someone who is happy wallowing in self pity and refuses to see that she can change this very simply by walking away - and I don't mean from an argument, I mean from the marriage. (Yes, I know you have many children but that, too, is an excuse - women with more children than you do it everyday). Anyone who would put up with the verbal and physical abuse this jerk dishes out MUST be getting some sort of masochistic satisfaction out of it.

BB

Last night, my husband approached me about our son. He told me we can't resolve anything if I won't talk with him. I told him that, by how he was talking, I felt "uncomfortable" and then the next words out of his mouth were that I was trying to control him. I said that a discussion like that does no good, and I'm not participating.

I never should have allowed our marriage to deteriorate to where it got. I didn't see myself as a victim. Instead, I felt virtuous in sacrificing for him and our children. Last Saturday, he brought up how God never gives us more than we can bear. I told him -- it depends -- what if a person is putting up with an alcoholic spouse? He said it could be virtuous.

Well, I no longer think that is virtuous. I think it is foolish. He's no longer physically abusive. I see no evidence of his being unfaithful. BUT what led to the physical abuse and the unfaithfulness is still evident. He doesn't seem to believe in reaching win-win solutions through respectful conversation.

Believe me, I'm not living the rest of my life as some sort of martyr or victim. We have been married 13 1/2 years, and there have been very few days in our marriage where I have been happy because of him. Mostly, I tried to sacrifice for him and enjoy the kids. I must have gone through at least ten different approaches to try to create a loving marriage. This is the first time I felt as though I was doing something that wasn't similar to thrashing around in the water. I feel calm and composed.

Where we are now as a couple is very unstable. Where we are now will not last. For one thing, he's not spanking our five year old in a rage. There are limits to what I will step back and observe in how he treats our children. For another thing, he's miserable. He's given up his outside activities -- volleyball, running, golf, frequent trips to his family -- but not much has replaced them. He resents, deeply, to the point of rage, what he sees as asking my permission for him to do things. He feels like a child, a slave...I'm a dictator, not a partner.

Now that I realize that there was not some unbreakable bond between him and the OW, now that I recognize that they were not soulmates destined to be together, I see what really is there... pure selfishness and disregard for himself, his values, me, and his children, not to mention her, her husband, her children, and our extended families. How did he justify this? Because he thought he had the right to make his own decisions. My IC said it, and Harley said the same thing: "The concept of care doesn't make sense to him."

Harley said something as well which gave me insight into this: He followed the POJA with her. Sure, it was easy. There was no colicky baby. There was no mortgage payment to discuss. All he had to do with her was decide where and when to meet and what to do to meet intimate emotional needs. No wonder the Love Bank grew past the romantic love threshhold.

If I sound bitter, I am. But I am also determined to live to my values, and they do not include being a martyr. I have stepped back. The ball is in his court. If he wants to argue, I am leaving or I am being silent. I have removed the option for him of arguing. It's nothing more than interference for his conscience.

As for Catholicism, I have come to terms with how the Catholic teachings can be warped into the idea that a woman who is abused and betrayed should stay with her husband. I do not blame the Church for my choices. Three of our four children attend a Catholic elementary school. At one point, I thought I would leave the Church, but I no longer believe that the core teachings of the Church are supportive of abuse. Rather, the core teachings are about the value of each and every human life from conception to natural death. There is dignity which is the right of every human being. I have not witnessed to my own personal dignity, and -- in trying to "convert" my husband to Harley's approach to marriage -- I have not witnessed to his dignity.

Your perpectives are sobering. I may come back in a few months, as I have now with my great plan of the ultimatum, and say it didn't work. But the Marriage Builders Weekend did effect a change. It wasn't a change in him, however. It was a change in me. There is now instability in the marriage that wasn't present before. He may change. He may leave. I doubt he'll continue much longer trying to argue with me. I simply have to be consistent in not "taking the bait", as he once put it. How many times will you fish on a lake and not get fish after you've fished successfully there for years? That's where I think we are. He's fished successfully for years in that he has successfully found justification for his own behavior by being able to provoke me to anger or to arguments. Now he's fishing and coming up empty.

I want to follow this path because divorce is such a tragedy for all involved. If there is a way to avoid it, I want to. This is a stone that I haven't turned over yet. I'll be back in a month or two to let you know what happened. And thank you.

Respectful

Hi Respectful,

It is great that you are looking within yourself to help fix yourself.
But honey, your thinking is warped. It is warped by the years of physical abuse your husband has heaped upon you.

There is no recovery honey. Only a brief rest from the abuse. Most abuser's don't change.

Find a great IC and LEAVE HIM.

Sincerely,

k.d.'s heartbreak

So let's see: Your H approaches you to talk about your son. You refuse. Then you blame HIM for being angry.

You often post that he approaches you to talk, or to do something else, and that you have refused.

This has nothing to do with self-protecion at all. Unless he was yelling and screaming and threatening, I don't see how "feeling uncomfortable" is a reason not to talk with him about something as important as your son - unless you've got another reason for refusing.

How did it help anything for you to shoot him down again??

I think what's really going on here is some major, major Passive/Aggressive behaviour on YOUR part. You've found that this a great way to shoot him down, thwart whatever he wants and make him angry and frustrated - and because he's angry and frustrated, you STILL get to be the victim. And oh, boy, people who use P/A behaviours are very heavily invested in being victims.

You fit the pattern 100%. Unless you are willing to knock off the P/A stuff and deal with him straightforwardly and honestly, like an adult whose goal is to build a marriage instead of like a ten-year-old whose goal is to remain a victim, nothing here will ever change.

Talk to your IC and see if they know what "Passive/Aggressive" behaviour is. Look it up on the Internet. You will see yourself described there.
Mulan

Mulan,
I appreciate your perspective. My husband has told me outright he thinks I'm "passive-aggressive", and -- as I said above -- he thinks that I am refusing to talk with him.

What I will make clear to him is that I am willing to talk with him when the goal is for us to reach agreement on what to do. What our discussions concerning our son have devolved into is his telling me that I am trying to control our son or force our son to do something.

The issue we were discussing last night was our son practicing his trombone for 30 minutes on Saturday and 30 minutes on Sunday because I forced him to practice. We bought our son a trombone last month on the condition that he would meet the conditions of band to practice 120 minutes per week. The practice requirement is not ours. It is the teacher's.

That was the discussion last night. I am reluctant to have our son in activities that total 22 per month, but I am willing (remember: we have three other children, and my husband travels extensively) if our son practices 60 minutes on the weekend. When he's in team activities, he's made a commitment to the team and needs to be there, but band is also a commitment. Our daughter tried band and dropped out. She took it up two years later. He had the option to drop out before we bought the trombone, but now he's made a commitment and he says he wants to be in band.

I am not shooting down my husband by agreeing to my son's activities on the condition that he practices 60 minutes on the weekend. What I am doing is not getting myself in a position where our son is practicing the trombone after an activity at 8 in the evening when he's got younger sisters who need to go to sleep. That's the POJA also. Previously, I have been intimidated into agreeing to things that haven't worked for me, or I have argued with my husband about what he wants done. No more. I simply refuse to participate. If that's passive/aggressive, so be it. I think of passive/aggressive as saying you'll do something and then not doing it.

My IC thinks what is going on is I have removed "ammunition" from my husband. He cannot call me controlling because I am not trying to get him to do anything or not do anything. I'm not telling him my feelings or giving him my opinion unless asked. BUT I am also not going along with what doesn't seem pleasant or appropriate to me. That applies to conversations or band practice at night.

I sigh in reading your post. It is possible that this approach could go nowhere beyond my husband feeling -- as he seems to today -- thwarted, angry, and frustrated, but I am no longer a victim today. My intent is to follow the POJA and, by my example, encourage him to do the same. I can ask him what would be positive for him and I can refuse to participate in a lifestyle that is negative for me. No nasty conversations. No band practice at 8 at night.

Respectful

I'm reminded of a song, "Round and round and round we spin, with feet of lead and wings of tin. The world goes round."

Every time I read your posts, I just end up shaking my head. What are you going to do about this 400 lb gorilla on your back? You say it's not your goal to be cherished but his role to cherish. Being cherished is something that should be given and is a desirable goal. Personally, I DO want to be cherished. Are you actually respectful or just trying to fly under the radar? I'm respectful of people BECAUSE they earn my respect. I'm also respectful of great white sharks, rattlesnakes and nasty spiders because they are dangerous.

I do not believe, cannot believe the Catholic line. My extremely Catholic Inlaws have twisted this same dogma to make me, the BS, the evil person. Obviously, I don't know enough about unconditional love or forgiving or suffering or putting his interests before mine. Therefore, it all has to be my fault. It doesn't seem to matter to them that he is the cheater.

This system only works if both sides approach it equally. If each person only wants the best for the other, it can be equal. Finding equlibrium takes talking. If you give up reading for your H, what's he giving up for you? Cherishing and being cherished is a balanced equation. Listening while someone speaks is good. For the other person to then listen while you speak is better. POJA is a way of balancing the seesaw.

Maybe you shouldn't just change your dance steps but also change your partner. I feel very sad that your children have to watch this. You can bet, it's going to be their turn soon enough. Their father will do to them what he is doing to you.

As a woman who has been doing MB for nearly 2 years and is now in the midst of a divorce, I feel much freer and happier now. I don't have to listen to STBXCH's lines or put up with the control. Liberate yourself.

I hope your get that job.

It's been an eventful three weeks.

Our youngest started full-day kindergarten in September, and within a week I felt unemployed. I had sent out one email to someone about an interest in part-time work, and I had also told other people about what I wanted to do. The email resulted in a request for an interview, a second interview, and the promise of a job offer next week for part-time work. I am just thrilled by the work -- it's work I enjoyed and gravitated to before becoming a SAHM, and they seem thrilled with what I provided to them to show that I am capable of doing the work. I did set up a separate bank account for my income but made the account joint.

That's the good news. The bad news is that my husband blew up last Sunday. He had gone off to watch TV on Saturday and I went to bed. In the morning, he asked how I felt and I told him I felt disappointed. He left the house and spent several hours on the phone with me, telling me I had made a unilateral decision to stop complaining, that I didn't care how he felt, etc. He said he was getting an apartment. He threatened to abandon the family and let me see how difficult it is to support a family.

Since then, I have felt scared. I wonder if he thinks a part-time job is a step I am taking towards divorce. It's not. My full-time job of caring for pre-schoolers ended, that's all. I have tried to talk with him about what happened last week, but he's said he can't do anything about the past.

Two people on this thread recommended Dobson's book "Love Must be Tough", and I've been reading it. It's good and applicable to me. I definitely chose the path of appeasement in dealing with him. After he pushed down on my forehead so hard that I still have lumps in my forehead (Jan, 1998), I decided to just go along with whatever he wanted. I was scared he could kill me.

Appeasement led to more and more disrespect and disregard, just as Dobson says. What kept me in the marriage was a misguided belief in the permanence of marriage. I do still believe in the permanence of marriage, but I now believe that separation is an appropriate path under certain circumstances. What I am doing differently now as opposed to before the affair is that I am still not trying to tell him what to do or not to do but I am answering his questions honestly. He asked me how I felt about his watching TV last Saturday, and I honestly said I was disappointed.

How's this working for me -- to answer his questions honestly? Well, not so well right now. He seems to think that I should be happy that he's happy, and my view is I went down that path before, with him gone from the house virtually every chance he got, training for a marathon, singing in the church choir, playing in volleyball leagues, etc. I would have put up with it had he not had an affair.

In the time since the affair was exposed in 2002, I've tried to coerce him through Harley's program. I think that the Marriage Builders Weekend, which we attended in June of this year, didn't really change him. It changed me. I realized that there was no point in arguing or coercing. I will still answer his questions honestly, and I will do as he has now asked and tell him how I feel even if he doesn't ask. The lesson I have from last Sunday, however, is that I cannot hear him out when he explodes like that. Since last Sunday, my hands have been shaking, I've been awake at night a lot, I've had panicky heart problems, and it's just not good for our marriage for me to feel that way. If he wants to have an angry outburst, I just need to stay away from him.

I remember once seeing Dr. Phil talk to a couple with a 36 year old son living in their home, unemployed and mooching off them. Dr. Phil said to them: "He doesn't have a problem. You do." His point was that the son had it pretty good. What I see with my being open to talking with my husband but not trying to coerce him to care for me is that he has a problem. My IC once said to me, "People do what works for them." It doesn't work for him to have me say I am disappointed about choices he makes. If it doesn't work for him, maybe he'll change.

It's been some time, but Ark wrote to BSs "Be still." I think that applies to me. I need to be still.

Respectful

Dear Cherished:
I just read your whole thread, beginning to end. You know my story. I am reading yours, and I see so many parallels between you and me. Your H is now threatening to leave you and the kids. I think you should let him go. You are an intelligent woman, you have an offer for a job. Land that job and start the divorce. But be careful, that you do not end up dead in the process. If your H sees that he will loose you and his children his violence might re-appear.

For your H “caring for someone else” is a foreign concept. I know from my own experience what that is like. No matter how many books you read, how many ICs or priests you see, our Hs will not change. I have been here, like you, for five years. I have learned, that I can appease him and change small things, but I know, that the big picture will not change - ever. Three years ago our MC told me – after months of weekly sessions - to divorce him. I didn’t do it. I finished all my training and have an excellent job now, great pay and benefits. I have new friends, related to my job. I have a successful life. The one thing missing is the H at home, who cares for me. I think he loves me in his way. He likes me to be his trophy wife. But only as long as I take care of managing our household and I have no problems, illnesses or anything else, that he would have to focus attention on me instead of himself. He is extremely selfish. Everything has to be his way. And he doesn’t even realize that. I point it out to him at times and he is surprised at the facts. He thinks he is very tolerant and nothing ever is done the his way. For example the car radio. He likes classical music, I hate it while driving. Make a guess what station is playing 95% of the time? Classical, sure because I avoid the confrontation. Recently he started to watch some political program every single night at 9 PM. I find it boring, and I said that. Do you think he would ask me what I would like to see, when I join him to watch TV after the kids are in bed? He decides how everything is done in our life.

Cherished, you have been in a power struggle with your H for all this time. As opposed to me, you have not given in. I think your H is the one at fault in your M. You have tried all that is possible to fix your M. I honestly think you should discuss this with your IC and break free from your abusive H. Every time I read your posts, I can see what you are trying to do: you are trying to reason with your H. To explain to him where you have found the problems in your M, to teach him the solutions that the books suggest. Cherished, that will not work. I have tried the same. You cannot reach these men with reason. They have probably some underlying problem with female authority, likely from the experience with their mothers. Nothing we can do will change them.

If your H wants to move on, let him go. Without a fight. Without violence. Be careful and start living your life. Start to have a chance for happiness again.

Love,

IP --
Yes, there are similarities between our stories. I have felt like I've been in the movie "Groundhog Day" for the past five years, trying to reason, trying to convince, threatening, giving ultimatums...all for naught.

The MarriageBuilders Weekend didn't change him. It changed me. I realized that any attempt at convincing was utterly futile. If a weekend of listening to Harley wasn't going to change his views, then nothing I could say would change his views.

I had to change my behavior. I stopped arguing. There is no power struggle if you won't argue. There is no power struggle if every nasty comment is met with silence rather than disagreement.

In sorting through all of this, I believe that I have made only one change in behavior from before the affair, when I decided to accept whatever he did (appeasement). That change is this: if he asks me how I feel, I tell him honestly. How do you feel about my watching football on TV? I'll answer honestly. Before I would say "Fine."

Negative feedback is very disturbing to him. I can't really tell why, but it appears that he thinks I don't care about him if I am not happy to support him in everything he chooses to do because it makes him happy.

He's upset. I have told him I feel scared of him. I got the audiocasettes of the book "The Gift of Fear" from the library, and I am listening to it to learn why I am afraid. Last night, he had our 5 year old at home for 1/2 hour while I went to pick up our 7 year old. He told me that he told her he was going to give her a big spanking if she didn't behavior. I told him he had agreed not to spank her. He said he didn't. I said I didn't want her to threaten to spank her. It's this sort of stuff that has me on red alert.

He has said several times he wants to leave. If he does, I will let him go.

My goal before was to be cherished. Now it is to be respectful. If he wants to go, I'll respect that decision and let him go.

There is so much happiness in the children and there is peace in being faithful to my values. And the job is a bulls-eye as far as what I want. I'm just thrilled.

I read a book on teen parenting in which the author discussed the "God Almighty Syndrome". He described it as a parent thinking -- if I do the right things, my kids will turn out OK. The author contends that not even God Almighty can make the claim that his children all came out OK. It's called free will. I have come to respect my husband's free will.

It is obvious that there is a struggle going on with him. Things are not all bad. In fact, he's made a real effort to be physically affectionate with me in bed, which deposits just buckets of Love Bank deposits. He is sometimes asking me my opinion.

I've been trying for five years, yes, but there was no progress until the MarriageBuilders Weekend. Now I see some ember of hope. I don't think I'll need to boot him out. If he cannot stand getting negative feedback when he asks me a question, he'll leave. And I'll let him go.

IP, read "The Gift of Fear." Years of appeasement preceeded a broken arm. It sounds like you are appeasing. Someone recommended Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" as well. I'm almost done with it, and it talks about how appeasement just allows time to create a deeper crater.

And thank you for caring.

Respectful

I got the written job offer. My dependence on him is far less with children who are older and a job than it was five years ago, when the affair was exposed and we had a baby, a toddler, a kindergartener, and a child in 2nd grade.

It's interesting to listen to the book "The Gift of Fear." In the book, the author distinguishes between context and content in evaluating a situation. For example, he said that two people furiously arguing might not be cause for fear at all -- if they are actors in a play. But -- a man walking up stairs could be cause for fear if he is a member of the audience who decides to walk on stage.

It gave me pause to consider the situation with my husband and his lover. After all, by all appearances, there must have been great pleasure and tenderness in their relationship. But -- what was he doing, really? What was the context? He was sneaking around to use her sexually. The context of our relationship is much better -- after all, he chose me to be his wife and the mother of his children. Now we just need to work on content -- that we treat each other with tenderness and care.

I see that he is trying. Over the years, I've told him that he can deposit lots of love units by being physically affectionate with me, and he's starting to do that. I'll actually miss him this week as he goes to Chicago and LA. I think this is the first time in probably 10 years that I have felt that I will miss his company when he is gone. My usual reaction is relief that he is gone.

Respectful

I've made 23 posts in the last week. MB can be addictive!

The next time my elementary school kids are in school will be the first day of my new job. I will periodically update my thread.

Over the last week or so, I've been listening to tapes of a book called "The Gift of Fear." In it, the man describes domestic violence. He says there are indicators for a man to be an abuser and a woman to be abused. The key PIN (pre-incident indicator) for a woman to be abused in that she doesn't say no. He finds this out early in the relationship by pushing early for commitment.

Well, I have tried to follow the POJA myself by giving up anything that my husband finds negative. What has been difficult for me is to not agree to what I find negative. He used to intimidate me physically. Now it is just verbal -- in the last month, I have been called, among other things, selfish, inflexible, not open, self-centered. It's a beating without the fist. I avoid it by giving in.

At the moment, our son is involved in activities which meet a total of 22 times per month. I got talked into it. The sad fact is that, with some discussion, I may have wanted this short-term difficulty, since one activity is likely to end December 2. It's just that there wasn't a discussion. Instead, there was a push using disrespectful judgements.

I think I need to step away from all this. If his approach to resolving conflict isn't not clearly to seek joint and enthusiastic agreement, I think I need to not participate in the discussion. If I am being called selfish, that's an indication that maybe he's not trying to reach enthusiastic agreement with me.

Harley's program is focused on having people meet intimate emotional needs, and most people who attend it are trying to recover from an affair. In our marriage, the affair was 8 months, but the abuse has been the entire length of our marriage. I think that the POJA addresses abuse. Now I need to change so that disrespectful judgements are never the way in which a conflict is resolved.

If anyone is considering the Marriage Builders Weekend, all I can say is that it was a turning point in my life. I came to understand what marriage is intended to be. My daughter has told me she will never marry. I hope someday to educate her to not be the woman who cannot say no but also to be a woman who can say yes.

Respectful