Orchid: I've done 20+ in one night. But that was mainly when I was new and it was part of my recovery cycle. Posting was therapuetic for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: If he is still abusing you verbally, it is also mentally and emotionally. Not good. It isn't POJA you need to worry about, it is abuse. Giving in? More like giving back. You should learn to give him back his guilt.

When he talks that way, question his sincerity. An Xws who is no longer physically abusive but verbally so, is still abusive and has NOT learned to stop. He has just picked another method. Let him know you do not tolerate ANY abusive method in YOUR life.

[quote]I think I need to step away from all this. If his approach to resolving conflict isn't not clearly to seek joint and enthusiastic agreement, I think I need to not participate in the discussion. If I am being called selfish, that's an indication that maybe he's not trying to reach enthusiastic agreement with me.{/quote]

Orchid: More than step away, you need to leave as it is happening then learn to leave before it happens. Remember to remove yourself from the scenario. He will find out he has no audience for his abusive ways so then what's the use. If he doesn't stop, you may need to make the separation permanent. Call Steve for guidance.

Remember it is not good t/b a doormat. PJOA works when both are doing it together. An abusive mate is not one to have a PJOA with. RH maybe from your side but there is nothing to have a joint agreement on when he is being abusive.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,
The book The Gift of Fear talks about "engage to enrage." There is no "reverse babble" with an abusive man. The only good response to a disrespectful judgment is silence or, as you say, leave.

He's gone from calling me a bully before the MBW (when I was coercing him to spend 15 hours per week with me under threat of immediate divorce) to calling me a dead fish (for leaving when the discussion is not pleasant in my view).

I'll keep in touch. Thanks for your response. By the way, what is RH?

Respectful

Hi,

The RB technique can work but with limited usage. It is to protect you and leave him hanging. If you want to help him as an abuser, RB will NOT work. Only for your protection. So you have to decide. It works slower with an abuser but eventually they will learn no one is reacting to their abuse , in fact with RB you become 'slick' so that nothing bad sticks.

Dead fish eh? LOL!! Hm..... see a dead fish can't enable an abuser. Consider it a compliment from a stinkin' WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It's your POV that will make you slick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It is working, he is changing what he is calling you and it is having less of an impact. Any time you want us to help you dicpher his babble, let us know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

RH - radical honesty.

take care,
L.

Thanks, Orchid. I think I need to breathe a little, just let things sit and see what develops. I've pushed so hard and for so long that I haven't really looked at the person I married to see what he wanted. All I knew was that I had accepted both neglect and abuse but wouldn't accept infidelity. He seems to think that abuse and infidelity were bad for him as well. We'll see about neglect. If I push him, I won't ever know what he wants. I'm creating a vaccuum to see what he decides. Over time, it will become clear, I think. What I need to be careful of now is to not go along with what I don't want. I don't want the vaccuum to be filled with running children to kid activities.
Respectful

I started my new job on Monday. They have really accomodated my need to be with my children, but now I see why. The company lost business due to a merger and I am a very inexpensive resource since I have low pay and no benefits. However, it is a great way to reenter the job market after seven years. Tomorrow, for example, I am volunteering in my children's school, and that's just fine by them. They'd like me to average 20 hours per week and I get paid for every hour. Part-time hourly is much better than part-time salaried.

Anyway, with my husband, I have been told over and over that I am not a victim -- I am a volunteer. I had thought, I suppose, that a change in my behavior would result in a change in his. Well, I'm not sure that is true. It is true that marriage is like a dance, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he will change his dance steps if I change mine. I've tried lots of different steps -- being demanding, being supportive of everything I could tolerate, giving ultimatums, Plan A, Plan B, showing how upset I am, backing away... Nothing has worked.

My Catholic faith has a very fundamental concept called free will. He has free will. He makes his own choices. Marriage is like a dance. I am leaving this dance, not by separating physically but by separating emotionally. I've chosen emotional divorce, not because it is what I want but because it is the best option I see in front of me. My goal is no longer to change him. It is to protect myself from further harm.

Is there any hope? I have given up the false hope that any change of mine will result in a change in him.

Respectful

I think it is great that you started a job! And a job where you can take off time to be with your children - excellent.

I would continue the way you are going. It will be good for you, and hopefully he will decide to make some changes too.

Well, I just hung up the phone on him. Same old thing. I have reached the limit of what I can take. He sees it as telling me how I feel so that we can resolve things. I see it as character assassination. Harley's first point in negotiating: make conversations pleasant. That does not include yet another reference to "Then let's get a divorce."

Respectful

Have you really reached the limit?
Or is that an emotional response to the phone call?

You have the highest tolerance limits I have ever seen -- and that says a lot about your character and strength.
If it were just you -- I would encourage you to stick it out to the end of your limits.

However, you have young children (going older every day...) who are being modeled a very destructive view of marriage.
I worry about them and their futures.

I wonder how each of them will view love and marriage.
Will they repeat this pattern? Then we don't have just one destructive marriage but several more.....and then on to their children.

Congrats on finding a new job that is so accomodating and supportive! Sounds wonderful!

Lexxxy,
I'm too stubborn to reach the limit just because I'm in emotional pain. I've reached the limit because my reaction to my husband's treatment of me is now involving physical reactions that are scary.

I just cannot stick around when he lights into me, regardless of the impact on the marriage. Our 12 year old daughter doesn't want to marry. Our 10 year old son wants to marry someone who will agree with everything he wants to do. Our 7 year old daughter wants to marry someone who is funny like Dad but who is also nice. Our 5 year old hasn't said anything.

This marriage is the product of bad marriages that lasted through life on both of our sides tracing at least back to the grandparents. My husband's maternal grandmother, according to my mother in law, said, "He's my man so I'm sticking with him." Yep, he was quite a man -- physically abusive of her and an alcoholic. And my husband's father treated his wife with utter contempt. On my side, my mother and grandmother both dominated their marriages. My paternal grandmother believed in sacrifice and would wait on her husband hand and foot even though she was disabled from a childbirth.

I do wish to break the beliefs that created this marriage. It seems that there are two horrible beliefs:
- Conflict is best resolved by having one person totally dominate decision-making.
- Commitment means you stay together no matter how badly you are treated.

I'm leaving this. I cannot take it physically or emotionally. Last night, I hung up the phone on him when I had reached my limit, but I have ended numerous conversations in the last few weeks. He came home after 10 last night and then slept on the couch. He left this morning without offering a kiss good-bye. Fine. I didn't chase after him.

During the affair, he used to say I was uncommitted. After the affair was exposed, he told me I was uncommitted. He has since told me I am uncommitted, and I have asked, "Committed to what?"

Respectful

Respectful,
You have really been through a lot in your marriage. It sounds like he just keeps trying to push your buttons.

I find that I get very envious of BS's whose FWS jumps and and does everything possible to recover the marriage the right way. I so wish mine would. Sounds like your Husband is like mine, living in his own world.

I'm sorry for what you are going through. I guess you are reaching your limit.

Have you ever been in Plan B? I'm not suggesting it, I'm just curious. It doesn't sound like your Husband wants to be divorced, but it seems like he is going to stick with his behavior, no matter what you do.

I'm sorry things are so rough for you.

Respectful,

Before you hung up or left the room as boundary enforcements, did you state what the boundary was and the violation before hanging up or leaving the room?

Just curious.

LA

LA,

Yes, the violation was the conversation was not pleasant for me. I am not going to argue with him about whether or not I should have felt it was pleasant, although I have been willing to say what specifically he says that makes it unpleasant and why I might find it unpleasant ("If you won't talk with me, then let's end the marriage" is not going to be a statement which keeps me in a conversation. It's a statement which ends a conversation.) I even was willing to suggest alternative wording, if he would like. But he didn't like. He went off about how I am imposing Harley's program on him and how it has to be that way or no way. Done. I said I was hanging up, and I hung up. He called back, and I said I am hanging up. He did come home but slept on the couch.

The boundary is I end the conversation. He can do lots of things but one thing he cannot do is force me to participate in a conversation. I am not trying to change his behavior. I am changing my behavior.

Respectful

Is listen and repeat part of your boundary? To clarify before you enforce?

"Are you saying you feel pain and anger it when I don't talk to you? That you feel close to giving up and divorcing?"

"When I bring up what Harley says, you feel controlled and judged, is that correct? Do you believe I want what I want, in the way I want it, when I want it from you?"

No one on the planet can force you into a conversation...or keep you there. You choose to continue or not based on your goal...and from what you describe, I can't see what that goal is? To not be used, abused or intimate with your H? To invalidate what he feels, thinks, believes and perceives?

He withdrew from you from GREAT pain...and fear. He FEARS YOU, Respectful...and I would, also. You are not safe to be shared with...nor are you exampling how to be safe..."Telling me I should not feel afraid of you is abusive. Saying you fear my emotions is not abusive."

Clarity before action...before decision. Doesn't come unless you know your goal, your true goal, and aligning your intentions...do I want to understand what my H is saying or do I want to protect myself from what he is saying?

Am I willing to get clarity for MYSELF before I enforce boundaries...in order to know if they've been crossed or not...or do I want to somehow keep myself from being hurt in any manner, shape or form? Do I have that power? Or do I have the power to feel pain, trace it and know it...own it...and act from my choice to love, anyway?

Call people on their abuse...and know your own. Your power struggle with your H is sucking like mud at your shoes, and I believe, increasing your urge to protect yourself at all costs...when you cannot. Two power struggles going on, inside and out...and two souls getting shredded by each other...only you are here. And have been here. For years.

You build your own self-respect and confidence. Your esteem. Only you can. Why not focus on clarity, really hearing (not agreeing, condoning or reacting to) his stuff and learning it truly is his?

And really listen to your own voice, inside...to know what your stuff truly is, too? You're both worth it.

True intimacy doesn't have pleasant sharing...it has deep, trustful, intense sharing...and afterwards, when both have been safe and acknowledging...respectful...then we experience euphoria...beyond pleasant...from connection.

Do you believe hanging up when it isn't pleasant lives up to your own code? Do you respect yourself more for doing this than clarifying? Understanding before acting? Or is this like me...where I identified something I was doing...say, uhm, doormat...and to change, I went 180 degrees...which is still level with doormat...and worked my way back to the middle 90 degrees? Which is the opposite of doormat/controller?

What's your goal? What angle do you want to reside at?

LA

LA,
I didn't bring up Harley. He did.

Your post will take some time to think through, but I think that participating in a conversation like last night's is not helpful for our marriage. I'm not trying to invalidate his feelings. I'm trying to get away from the pain of his telling me things like "Nothing I do is good enough" or "Your whole approach is to ignore me."

It is obvious to me, as well as to others on the boards, that there must be something terribly wrong with me to have reacted the way I did to his abuse. At this point, all I'm trying to do is get away from conversations that are unpleasant. Let's compare two statements:
I feel that your whole approach is to ignore me.
I feel ignored, and this is why...

When he says "I feel that your whole approach is to ignore me," what is he doing? Is he trying to tell me how he feels? Is he telling me why I'm a terrible wife? Is he asking me to talk through with him specific behavior on my part that is negative for him so that we find a mutually acceptable change in behavior on my part?

I don't know. All I know is that my reaction has become almost like an anxiety attack. I can't stand it, which is why I hang up.

I don't know why the last few weeks have been so hard. I can only speculate -- was it my getting a job? is it my parents coming this weekend? was it our bouncing into overdraft because I bought clothes for interviewing?

Respectful

R,

"I'm trying to get away from the pain of his telling me things like "Nothing I do is good enough" or "Your whole approach is to ignore me."

I take that to mean when you feel pain, you believe he is causing it...so hanging up, removing yourself, is your protection...protecting yourself from what IS NOT hurting you...

He says, "I feel like nothing I do is good enough. I feel like a daily failure. I don't like feeling this way. Reminds me of when I was a kid and my mother...nothing was good enough." There's no pain in that for you...it's not about you, Respectful...examine yourself and find out if you're choosing to believe you are causing him to feel inadequate and a failure, because you're choosing to believe he is causing you to feel pain...

"I believe your whole approach is to ignore me...I feel shut out, ignored, erased. I feel like you think I'm too dangerous, defective and monstrous to listen to or share with."

What if the way I've rewritten these statements did not cause you pain? Would you hang up then? If your standard is pain...then you're going to abuse people...others have abused you to stop you from continuing to hurt them...didn't work...doesn't...nor can you make others stop hurting you...first, know that pain is not a standard...it's a perception.

If your standard is, "Defining who I am, which is what I feel, think, believe or perceive...is abusive" then you can enforce that boundary. If defining is when you state something that is subjective...your stuff...as fact, or stating others' stuff as fact...the truth not their truth...then you can enforce that boundary.

Whoa...there was something defective about you for the way you reacted to his abuse? Huh? What? Where'd that come from? I don't see that in the posts...I see them asking, honestly, why you chose to do what you did and NOT do what you didn't...for clarification...then again, that's my chosen perspective, so maybe I'm missing something.

You have been and are in no way defective...your choices remain your own, as mine do...and I chose very destructively for years...and I don't anymore.

Your "I feel your whole approach is to ignore me" is not abusive in anyway. Why make it so to you?

It is ownership and respectful. It is sharing his perception and feeling. It's workable. No attack. Why not clarify, as I demonstrated in my last post...if you have questions what he means?

Hold yourself to being respectful so you can feel all it's tendrils, recognize and embrace it fully...and finally feel respected, 'k?

Why do you choose to victimize yourself? To say you can't stand something...when you can speak, delineate and remove yourself...in steps? That assures self you are worthy, valuable, capable...and you ARE.

Have you considered your near anxiety attacks come from your brain handing you all the incidents in your life when you were being attacked, because you're choosing to perceive what your H says as BEING attacked right now? That it's cumulative...and your brain believes that's what you want? Choose differently. This is now, only right now...you can feel attacked and NOT be...consider all the times you accepted being attacked and did nothing...which tells self you're unworthy, valueless and defective? OUCH...self-ouch...the middle ground is to know sometimes, we are being attacked...and we enforce our boundaries. Other times, we are expecting attack and therefore experience it...though we are not being attacked at all.

Discern which is which first...you said yourself, you don't know what he meant when he said that...you didn't know, yet you had the reaction immediately...was it from your choice to expect he will attack, every sentence? When others state things which define, you still are not being attacked...hand them back to the person, without definition...to clarify...which tells self, seek first to understand, then be understood. Stalls your reactivity and gives moments to you to understand, and then choose your actions and words...giving yourself pause and your marriage.

You caused on overdraft? Am I mixing up posters here...didn't your H cause one and you couldn't get your insulin? I am not judging...just clarifying for myself. And what you ponder, about these last few weeks, cannot be answered here...only you have real answers about yourself:

Are you feeling pressured, judged or in distress because of your new job? From anticipating your parents coming this weekend? From bouncing into overdraft because you bought clothes for interviewing?

And once you have these answers...then you can share them with your H...say what you feel, think, believe and perceive.

That's marriage...that's a partnership. Consider pain not coming in from the outside, not from being done to, attacked or forced...consider it as a signal to you from inside you...to be recognized, assessed, traced and known. Lessen your own pain, Respectful. Know yourself for who you really are...you have inherent choice at every moment; great signals in your emotions; choice of thought, perception and perspective...you have your own truth. No one on this planet can do anything to what is yours...it's yours. Only you can negate, discount, disparage or erase yourself. I promise.

LA

LA,

"I'm trying to get away from the pain of his telling me things like "Nothing I do is good enough" or "Your whole approach is to ignore me."

I take that to mean when you feel pain, you believe he is causing it...so hanging up, removing yourself, is your protection...protecting yourself from what IS NOT hurting you...

YES, I believe I am protecting myself from harm. I cannot stop him from saying things that are hurtful judgements of me (such as "Your whole approach is to ignore me") but I can end the conversation.



He says, "I feel like nothing I do is good enough. I feel like a daily failure. I don't like feeling this way. Reminds me of when I was a kid and my mother...nothing was good enough." There's no pain in that for you...it's not about you, Respectful...examine yourself and find out if you're choosing to believe you are causing him to feel inadequate and a failure, because you're choosing to believe he is causing you to feel pain...

I DO BELIEVE I am causing him pain. He called this afternoon and the conversation ended with his hanging up. In it, I asked if we could try to find and concentrate on what is positive for both. He said he wanted to do what is positive for him and not concern himself with whether it is positive or negative for me. Well, at least that's honest. My 7 year old once said, "Mom, I just want to do what I want to do." I believe the pain he feels is that I am no longer accepting that he's going to do what he wants to do without my removing myself from him.



"I believe your whole approach is to ignore me...I feel shut out, ignored, erased. I feel like you think I'm too dangerous, defective and monstrous to listen to or share with."

What if the way I've rewritten these statements did not cause you pain?

THEY DIDN'T.



Would you hang up then?
I WOULDN'T.



If your standard is pain...then you're going to abuse people...others have abused you to stop you from continuing to hurt them...didn't work...doesn't...nor can you make others stop hurting you...first, know that pain is not a standard...it's a perception.

I AGREE THAT pain is a perception. I recognize that I cannot stop others from hurting me. My 2nd grader has come to me to complain about another child, and I have said just get away from the child if they are nasty to you. Don't try to change them. That's basically what I am doing with my husband. I am not trying to change him. I am trying to protect myself from him. On the radio show today, Joyce brought up an interesting point -- that part of the Taker is the part that protects you from harm.



If your standard is, "Defining who I am, which is what I feel, think, believe or perceive...is abusive" then you can enforce that boundary. If defining is when you state something that is subjective...your stuff...as fact, or stating others' stuff as fact...the truth not their truth...then you can enforce that boundary.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND what you ean here. I do believe it is abusive for him to tell me about my feelings and thoughts. He has learned to preface it by saying things like "My perception is that you..." but the judgment of me is still present. I try to stay away from speculating on his motivations but only focus on his behavior.



Whoa...there was something defective about you for the way you reacted to his abuse? Huh? What? Where'd that come from? I don't see that in the posts...I see them asking, honestly, why you chose to do what you did and NOT do what you didn't...for clarification...then again, that's my chosen perspective, so maybe I'm missing something.

WELL, IN 2,700+ posts on MB, I have gotten that. My first name on MB was uncommitted back when I didn't know there was an affair and my husband was telling me I was uncommitted. I said how my husband had broken my arm and the poster quipped that my name should be shouldbecommitted. I am not offended. I look at my own behavior and have tried hard to understand why I took this.



You have been and are in no way defective...your choices remain your own, as mine do...and I chose very destructively for years...and I don't anymore.

Your "I feel your whole approach is to ignore me" is not abusive in anyway. Why make it so to you?

WHAT IS HE SAYING in this? He isn't saying he feels ignored. He is saying that I have created a whole approach which is to ignore him. How does he know my approach? This is not about his feelings. This is about me.



It is ownership and respectful. It is sharing his perception and feeling. It's workable. No attack. Why not clarify, as I demonstrated in my last post...if you have questions what he means?

I DO ask questions until I get to the point when I cannot stand it.



Hold yourself to being respectful so you can feel all it's tendrils, recognize and embrace it fully...and finally feel respected, 'k?

Why do you choose to victimize yourself? To say you can't stand something...when you can speak, delineate and remove yourself...in steps? That assures self you are worthy, valuable, capable...and you ARE.

I DON'T VICTIMIZE myself. I recognize that a wife deserves loving kindness. I am not booting him out of the house. I am ending conversations.



Have you considered your near anxiety attacks come from your brain handing you all the incidents in your life when you were being attacked, because you're choosing to perceive what your H says as BEING attacked right now? That it's cumulative...and your brain believes that's what you want? Choose differently. This is now, only right now...you can feel attacked and NOT be...consider all the times you accepted being attacked and did nothing...which tells self you're unworthy, valueless and defective? OUCH...self-ouch...the middle ground is to know sometimes, we are being attacked...and we enforce our boundaries. Other times, we are expecting attack and therefore experience it...though we are not being attacked at all.

IT IS cumulative. I've taken it for so long I cannot take it anymore.



Discern which is which first...you said yourself, you don't know what he meant when he said that...you didn't know, yet you had the reaction immediately...was it from your choice to expect he will attack, every sentence? When others state things which define, you still are not being attacked...hand them back to the person, without definition...to clarify...which tells self, seek first to understand, then be understood. Stalls your reactivity and gives moments to you to understand, and then choose your actions and words...giving yourself pause and your marriage.

You caused on overdraft?
HE SAYS I DID. No, I don't have insulin. He was upset that I went out and bought clothes for interviewing. Guess what was in my closet? One pair of black pants for church, some turtlenecks, and a few sweaters. I didn't argue though. I said I was willing to not buy anything he didn't want me to buy.



Am I mixing up posters here...didn't your H cause one and you couldn't get your insulin? I am not judging...just clarifying for myself. And what you ponder, about these last few weeks, cannot be answered here...only you have real answers about yourself:

Are you feeling pressured, judged or in distress because of your new job? From anticipating your parents coming this weekend? From bouncing into overdraft because you bought clothes for interviewing?

THE JOB is perfect, except for the pay. And the pay is understandable -- I have ultimate flexibility with time and no experience except playing Candyland for the last seven years. I asked for a review in March. The work itself is an exact match to what I most enjoy and am good at doing. And it's close to both school and my home. It was the exact match to my ideal job. Unbelievable.



And once you have these answers...then you can share them with your H...say what you feel, think, believe and perceive.

That's marriage...that's a partnership. Consider pain not coming in from the outside, not from being done to, attacked or forced...consider it as a signal to you from inside you...to be recognized, assessed, traced and known. Lessen your own pain, Respectful. Know yourself for who you really are...you have inherent choice at every moment; great signals in your emotions; choice of thought, perception and perspective...you have your own truth. No one on this planet can do anything to what is yours...it's yours. Only you can negate, discount, disparage or erase yourself. I promise.

THIS IS WHAT I KNOW. My Catholicism was a distortion of the most basic truth of Catholicism, which is the infinite value of each and every human being. I was told that I need to "die to self". Hardly, I didn't just die to self. I allowed my human dignity -- what is appropriate to every single human, whether Ted Bundy or Terri Schavio -- to be shredded. No more. That is the truth. I don't blame the Church. I blame myself for sheer foolishness. John Paul II wrote in Love and Responsibility about the need for "loving kindness" in marriage. Without it, the marriage commitment for life should remain, but the couple may need to separate. "Loving kindness". It is my goal -- for me to give and receive.

Respectful

Did he really say this, word for word and in context?

In your posts I see your H giving you many legitimate concerns, but you always say that this makes the conversation unpleasant for you and so you hang up or walk away from him. How can anything be solved like this?

Do you feel that your H tries to control you?
Mulan

Mulan,
It may not have been word for word but it was pretty darn close to word for word. He said he wanted to do what was positive for him. I clarified by asking even if it was negative for me. No, that wasn't what he meant. I then asked if he wanted to do what was positive for him whether or not it was positive or negative for me, and he agreed. In other words, it seems he doesn't want to consider the impact of his behavior on me. It's not that he wants to hurt me. It's that he doesn't want to consider me when he makes choices.

I don't think he tries to control me. He isn't coming to me and demanding that I do this or that. What he's doing is telling me that my actions are impacting him in a negative way. With bouncing into overdraft, for example, he could point to my buying clothes so it interfered with his desire to pay for four personal training sessions. The money was spent because I spent it and so he didn't get to.

Respectful

So - you do not believe that your bouncing a check impacts your husband in a negative way? (I'm just askin')

Have you read "The Boomerang Relationship" in my sig line?

Of the people described in that article, which one sounds like you and which one sounds like your H?
Mulan

Mulan,
I didn't bounce a check. We bounced into overdraft. My buying clothes did reduce the amount of money available for him to spend and that was viewed as a negative impact on him. I went down the path of asking him what would I have worn to an interview but instead said that I wouldn't buy anything that he didn't want me to buy.

I've read the Boomerang Relationship. "He feels threatened and insecure and withdraws, she gets angry. She gets angry, he withdraws and the unresolved conflict boomerangs between then." I am no longer getting angry but am withdrawing. He told me tonight he has no hope because he can't make enough money to live the lifestyle he wants when I have such a high need for financial security. In other words, I want to save and he wants to spend. For years, I tried to save by having the kids in hand me downs and thrift store clothes and buying nothing myself while he was out spending money on golf and expensive lunches out at work. Now we are saving no money but I am resistent to selling stock. He wants to sell stock and take out a home equity loan and I don't want to go along with that. The POJA works well for me in financial matters because I don't want to spend. I recognize that problem but I still am reluctant to spend. We have $5,000 on a 0% APR card that was used to buy a car this summer. I hate having that debt. What he wants is to get a home equity line -- that just doesn't sit well with me. So -- you can imagine his frustration when I actually splurged to try to get a job.

Respectful