And the difference is - ? Yeah, I know, with overdraft the check is stil paid. But you still exceeded the money available.


Well - isn't it?


So, how do YOU think he should have handled this? What would have been a satisfactory outcome to you?


And which one are you and which one is your H?
Mulan

Mulan,
I've been the angry pursuer and he's been the person who withdraws. Now I'm withdrawing.

Yes, every expenditure I make affects him and vice versa. I think there are lots of positive outcomes. We need to discuss and come to agreement. He was angry that I told him we bounced into overdraft when he said he had signed up for four personal training sessions and he brought up that I had bought clothes. I don't like the tit for tat approach. I'd rather we eliminate what is negative for either of us and find what is positive for both. Eliminate clothes. Eliminate personal training. Or find what is positive for both -- maybe 2 rather than 4 personal training sessions and less expensive clothes.

Respectful

LA -
I'll try validating his feelings only and see what comes of it.
Respectful

Respectful,

How would you feel about validating his stuff? When you choose to do something, let go the response. If you choose to do something to evaluate the outcome, then are you living from what you can control, or what you can't?

LA

LA,
I'm not sure I understand. This morning he kissed me goodbye and then said something like "Why should I even bother?" and "Do you want me to kiss you?"

My response was that there wasn't a yes or no answer to that question. All I can validate is that he perceives that I think he's a terrible person and I won't ever get over his affair and nothing he does is good enough and he won't ever make enough money to satisfy me. It's all about his perception of me.

I recognize I cannot control him. The question is whether I can stand to be around him. He tells me that he feels bad all the time. I don't feel bad. I just feel put down, and I've come to think I don't deserve to be put down. And, believe me, it is all extremes. "You always" "You never" "You won't ever" "You just don't care at all..." If he tied his reaction to specific behavior of mine that I could change, that would be different. Instead, it's very general. On occasion, he will bring up something but then it's as if he's picking at my reluctance to do something as a sign that I don't care about him. "You refuse to sell stock." I don't want to sell stock. He sets up so much conflict as he wants to do something and I don't so then my feelings are more important than his. The POJA is you give up what is negative for one to find what is positive for both. He explicitly says he doesn't want to give up what is negative for me. I don't want to be pulled back into arguments about whether I am reasonable, paranoid, etc. about not wanting to sell stock. I just want to get away from the criticism.

Respectful

"Do you want me to kiss you?" isn't a yes or no answer?

"My response was that there wasn't a yes or no answer to that question. All I can validate is that he perceives that I think he's a terrible person and I won't ever get over his affair and nothing he does is good enough and he won't ever make enough money to satisfy me. It's all about his perception of me."

Your choice to say, "I hear you're not sure if I want you to kiss me, to give me affection, to connect, is that correct?"

What is your truth, R? Is it, "I love you and I do want to be intimate with you, connected. I'm struggling to know and understand myself, separate from knowing and understanding you. I'm working on it." Then kiss him? Hug him? Or is it your truth "I don't like what you think, believe, perceive or who you are...I don't like you not trusting me, believing in me or accepting me for who I am."

See, I can't get a handle on your goals, what YOU want. I hear you talk about what you deserve, how he makes you feel, and your belief that you can protect yourself through withdrawal.

"I recognize I cannot control him. The question is whether I can stand to be around him."

You are questioning your own choice and strength?

"He tells me that he feels bad all the time. I don't feel bad. I just feel put down, and I've come to think I don't deserve to be put down."

Feeling put down doesn't feel bad to you?

"And, believe me, it is all extremes. "You always" "You never" "You won't ever" "You just don't care at all..." If he tied his reaction to specific behavior of mine that I could change, that would be different."

See, I don't see you doing this, R...when I've posted to you, I believed through my own experience, I had to break my enmeshment, my belief I earned love, filled up from the outside...BEFORE I could change my behavior to not LB my DH...I wanted to communicate to you that Harley is correct...only to begin internally with seeing what you choose to do outwardly, you must also do inwardly. Which is real change...changing your choice of action for you...which benefits you, your DH and your marriage, as a result. Not the intent.

You choose to take his always, never, all, nothings as the truth, not his truth...why? You know that these words signal something about the human speaking them...that they are in their child perspective...it FEELS like always, never...and you, in your adult mind, knows this isn't fact...and you choose to refute his words rather than hear his state of mind? We only go to the inner child when we fear or hurt...why not choose to hear what he's saying with that in mind, rather than you taking it as The Truth instead of his stuff.

"Instead, it's very general. On occasion, he will bring up something but then it's as if he's picking at my reluctance to do something as a sign that I don't care about him. "You refuse to sell stock."

"Do you feel loved when I agree with you? I used to feel that...felt like a love deposit. Now I realize that I can disagree and still choose to love...one does not equal the other. I found out I feel safer when in agreement and a lot more fearful and threatened when someone believed differently than I did."

"I am choosing not to sell the stock right now (insert truth with awareness that this is now). I'm not enthusiastic about spending money...I've found out inside me how much money represents security, integrity, dignity, confidence in me...and how much I fear not having it. I'm working on understanding this more inside me."

"I don't want to sell stock. He sets up so much conflict as he wants to do something and I don't so then my feelings are more important than his."

DJ DJ DJ

"The POJA is you give up what is negative for one to find what is positive for both."

No, it isn't.

"He explicitly says he doesn't want to give up what is negative for me."

Same goes for him for what I said about you. I can't see another way because I'm limited, I didn't live going to POJA without breaking down and getting to separate and equal FIRST. Your DH doesn't want to change what he thinks, feels, perceives or believes to fit what you want him to be...and that's a totally aligned desire...to annihilate himself for you. Until you change your belief that he makes you and you make him, then annihilation of both your selves is your only option. It's not doable. Until you own your own feelings and respect that he owns his...then you won't get out of this severely disrespectful, toxic power struggle.

"I don't want to be pulled back into arguments about whether I am reasonable, paranoid, etc. about not wanting to sell stock."

"You're paranoid about being poor."

"That's abusive. When you define what I am...what I'm feeling, thinking, believing or perceiving, you are abusing me. Stop."

"Okay. I meant I perceive you're very afraid of being poor. Are you?"

"I just want to get away from the criticism."

Until you decide to discern what is criticism, what is abuse, what is sharing and what are thoughtful requests, then you will hear everything your H says as criticism...even, "Do you want me to kiss you?" which is radical honesty, not criticism.

That's the part I did live...hearing rejection, criticism, where it wasn't...and having to learn how to tell the difference...refine my own filter, up my awareness...which is why I removed judgment first...so I could hear and unblock my life-long filter.

Before I could that, I had to change my beliefs about humans.

LA

LA --
I don't understand what you are saying. He does believe I am asking him to annihilate himself -- I've heard it said many different ways, but that's the gist of it. "I have to give up everything about myself to please you" is a fair approximation of one way he has said it.

The "Do you want to kiss me?" can have a yes or no response. The problem is now that I don't know if I want him to kiss me. I wasn't saying that question was criticism. Why did he have to say it?

I've backed away from him. I've not initiated time alone together. We've had none. He went and joined the church choir for Christmas, which I am fine by. It's not that he is making choices that are bad. It's that he is making so many choices that preclude time together, and I'm sick of being not on his priority list.

At this point, I don't know what I want. Ever see the movie Groundhog Day? I have been going back to old posts - 2, 3, 4 years ago -- and I was saying the same things then aobut what he was saying then.

What can change? He's not going to change. I think I cannot coerce care or desire to spend time with me. I am looking to build my own life -- "cordially ignore him and build your own life" is what the therapist said to me four years ago, but I was going to do my best to build our marriage.

Now forty or so pounds more on my body and four years of our children's lives later and I think I need to move on. If he's not willing to following the POJA, why even bother to try intimacy? He wants to do what he pleases regardless of whether the impact is negative. What it means to me is that he has higher priorities than building a marriage in which the two become one.

I'll consider what you have to say. It takes time to sink in.

Respectful

I'm going dark. He reads my posts sometimes, and I can no longer be honest in what I say.
Respectful

R,

I realize you are choosing to not post here because you're choosing to not be honest with your H. I respect your choice. I'm posting my response because I have been away and wanted to do my half of connecting.

"I don't understand what you are saying. He does believe I am asking him to annihilate himself -- I've heard it said many different ways, but that's the gist of it. "I have to give up everything about myself to please you" is a fair approximation of one way he has said it."

Are you asking him to think, believe, perceive or feel differently? And if he would, you would be warm, open, receptive, affectionate and present?

That would be annihilation. That's SDing to change the essence of a person.

If you are asking him to do communication exercises twice a week for a half-hour each...that wouldn't be annihilation.

If you are listening and repeating his stuff...choosing your intent to know, not fix, correct, solve or take on yourself...then you are choosing to respect, not annihilate.

And if you choose not to own his perceptions...which contain a lot of projection, as does yours (humans project)...then you are not asking to be pleased. You are acting from your belief that he is whole, complete...himself...as is...as are you. You cannot control his choice to please/abuse...pleasing is abusive...when you betray yourself to please others, you create and build resentment. You know this. Stating what you know about yourself, sharing you're aware of it, is acting from love...not changing him.

When you let go all that you have done to get from others by giving to them...you will feel and know his authentic love for you, his choice of you through his choice to do for the marriage. And you will know your own.

"The "Do you want to kiss me?" can have a yes or no response. The problem is now that I don't know if I want him to kiss me. I wasn't saying that question was criticism. Why did he have to say it?"

What you don't know about yourself is totally about you. No judgment. Only you CAN know...your responsibility is to know...put your focus on yourself in this way, to know...and when you know, share.

Why? Why did he have to say it? He wanted to know if you love him, want to connect to him...or do you find him as repugnant as he feels you do?

He's hurting. You're hurting. You are not doing this to each other...you are wrenching your own bones from fear of rejection, abuse, more pain...and I'm asking you to stop. You're here. You have the power to choose to stop seeing all your pain coming in from him...and he can choose to change his perception, as well.

"I've backed away from him."

You've chosen to withdraw...to see your H as your enemy. To not connect, be present. You're choosing from fear.

"I've not initiated time alone together."

Have you desired time alone together? Are you committed to the four rules of marriage?

"We've had none."

Are you saying you wanted him to initiate time alone together? Do you want to feel desired, sought out, to be of interest? Time alone together connects. If you do not want to connect with him, would it make sense to want him to initiate?

"He went and joined the church choir for Christmas, which I am fine by. It's not that he is making choices that are bad. It's that he is making so many choices that preclude time together, and I'm sick of being not on his priority list."

You don't know if you want him to kiss you...to connect with you...and then you are sick of not being a priority? He asked you to connect with him...he shared his fears, feelings, thoughts and perceptions...you withdrew. You choose not to do any of those things...why then are you expecting him to spend time together to connect when he's respecting your choices?

He's giving you O&H statements...are you giving them in return? That's connecting. That's intimacy. Ownership. Doing it to meet your own standards, not to get him to do, be, believe, feel or want anything.

"At this point, I don't know what I want."

What if he joined the church choir as an act of respect while he waits for you to decide what you want...what you choose to live from...your feelings or your beliefs? What if this was his form of protection, given he has felt overwhelming rejection, daily, from you? Doesn't mean you were rejecting him...just that may be what he felt. Fear has compatriots built-in...rejection, condemnation, judgment...feels like rejection of self, not actions...not choices.

"Ever see the movie Groundhog Day? I have been going back to old posts - 2, 3, 4 years ago -- and I was saying the same things then aobut what he was saying then."

Yes and yes. Your focus was to ferret out his change...not yours. Stay in yours. What did you see in those posts in yourself that you've learned from and changed? How different are you right now from then? What marvelous ephiphanies did you jump with...what personal standards did you set down, and make your boundaries to match them? How much freedom have you enjoyed from getting real responsibility and understanding how humans really love?

"What can change? He's not going to change. I think I cannot coerce care or desire to spend time with me."

Why do you DJ him into not changing? He's asked you for connection, acceptance, understanding and respect...he has changed how he speaks, stating his perceptions, what he perceives...to be safe for you to share with him...and safely share...he's changed. You've changed. You are looking for stuff from him when you do not know what you want, what you feel, where those feelings are coming from. Only you can know...and when you do, he's there to share with...because you'll state and own, "I've chosen to withdraw from you and I've learned a lot about what I want, why I feel what I do. I want to share my thoughts with you. I live in fear, a lot of it. I've learned the only way to not be paralyzed by fear is to hold it, talk about it and not act from it. Can we spend two hours together Friday night, talking?"

"I am looking to build my own life -- "cordially ignore him and build your own life" is what the therapist said to me four years ago, but I was going to do my best to build our marriage."

Hey, awesome therapist...talk about power-draining statement. Self-focus isn't building your own life and cordially ignoring the man you married to work through a lot of FOO stuff with...whoa. Ouch. Self-focus is KNOWING your stuff..."What do I want? Why is that important to me? What I'm craving from others...am I giving that to myself? To others?"

"Now forty or so pounds more on my body and four years of our children's lives later and I think I need to move on."

If this is what you believe, fully, then please do so. Divorce your H because you do not want to be his partner, connected, his ally. Doublecheck to make sure you learned all your lessons, though, because you'll recreate...and you know this. I know you do. I know you believe in marriage, to be taken most seriously...and you have...I want you to consider if you have given to your marriage and chosen to betray yourself...and when you do this in the future in any relationship, you will arrive at the same place with a different person.

There is nothing defective about your H. He's human. You're human.

"If he's not willing to following the POJA, why even bother to try intimacy?"

You don't want intimacy...you don't want to connect...you chose to withdraw...which states you are disconnecting...your choice and power, R. You're doing that. Not him. Before you can POJA, you have to KNOW what you are and are not enthusiastic about and why...you have to own your own stuff and know it...balanced Giver/Taker...and stop your LBs.

They are hurting you greatly, your marriage and your H.

"He wants to do what he pleases regardless of whether the impact is negative."

How well do you know projection, R? You are doing what you please, all the time. No one can make you do what you do not want to do...not in God's design. Your H may choose to shout his love by washing your car, cutting the grass or building a doghouse...and you may feel negatively impacted. Humans do...know why you feel what you feel BEFORE you dare to judge another person's intent...that disrespect is toxifying your system, keeping you in Ground Hog Day and you're choosing to do that to yourself. What you choose to believe is how you will live...period. Your choice. Your experience...as long as you continue to put your focus where you have no control...on him, his stuff, his choices...you will step over your own, not take responsibility for what is yours, and KNOW where your stuff comes from...my heart hurts in my remembering...

"What it means to me is that he has higher priorities than building a marriage in which the two become one."

You do not put your marriage first, R. You don't. You're half the marriage... you don't prioritize knowing your stuff and sharing it...so you're not doing your part. You're putting your HAPPINESS, positive impacts, ahead of everyone...because you're looking at your H all the time...and concentrating on your lack...you can't see your abundance. It remains there. Real.

And you're hurting your self over and over again telling self, you lack...

OUCH.

"I'll consider what you have to say. It takes time to sink in."

I have been asking you in various ways to look inward. Learn to center and seat yourself in your own power...same as every human on the planet has, equally. Because you have glory in you, abundance...and cruelty, manipulation...and making you a priority, which is half your marriage, is what I perceive as the crucial step you've missed...from not focusing on you, and what you're choosing.

Doesn't make you bad, awful, a hypocrite or a child...you're a marvelous human...and this is what we do...you are not alone. I want so very much for you to taste this freedom...sweeter than a spring breeze...to soar in what you are responsible for...and to know love from the inside out, the fullness, completeness of it as you fill yourself and flow over. I want that for you, your H and your marriage.

I want to know if this is what you desire with all your heart...to experience God's design by living your life from respect, meeting your own standards and boundaries, which you decide...knowing your own beliefs, living from them, and no longer imprisoned by reacting to your feelings...and to experience how much your feelings change when you choose to live from your beliefs...and thrive.

LA

LA,
I wrote this note to him a few weeks ago:

Last night, as the kids were going off to bed, you sat with work reading materials in your lap. I started to leave and you asked if I wanted to talk. No, I didn't. I respect that things come up and you need to be the judge of their urgency and your need to spend time at home on work-related reading material. Did I want to spend time with you last night? Not under the circumstances, with your having reading material in your lap ready to go.

Last night, I wasn't angry or upset or bothered. I just slept. I awoke about 1/2 hour ago, thoughtful. It is now close to 1 AM. There is no problem or concern with things coming up. That can happen. The real issue is a matter of priorities over time. Is our time alone together a priority, or do we allow that time together to be crowded out, not just occasionally but habitually? Since I gave up the mandate of 15 hours, we haven't spent 15 hours together enjoyably. There are periodic bursts of time together like Sunday but none of that time was enjoyable. You've brought up planning, and I've brought up planning. It hasn't happened. Why?

I'm not blaming you. I'm observing that it hasn't happened. How do we fix it?

Is 15 hours together even realistic for us? Should we build to that time? Can we sit down and plan 1 hour a week as enjoyable time together and then gradually increase it? You've asked me to let you know how I feel, and I am letting you know. I feel neglected, not because of your wanting to read last night but because, day in and day out, we spend little or no time together. Can we think through why we are allowing other values to take priority over our marital vocation and then sit down and discuss how to give priority, as a habit, to time alone together?



LA,

He was very receptive to that letter. What has happened since I wrote that letter in early November? He asked - Do you mind if I join the choir for Christmas? "Do you mind if I..." is something I've heard over and over and over and over and over again.

In your note, you said maybe he's giving me the space he thinks I need and he might as well join the choir. I am sitting around the house reading and often going to bed early out of sheer boredom. I think I made clear in that letter that I am open to spending time with him. He doesn't ask about spending time with me, except maybe if he is yawning or has reading material in his lap.

It's very discouraging, LA. That's why I've withdrawn. And, sadly, he's in the choir. I didn't mind. Why push myself on him? I asked about spending 1 hour per week together and maybe building from there. Until I read your thread above, I hadn't thought about that letter that I wrote in the middle of the night. I found it. Maybe it was the last attempt I made before falling silent.

Respectful

Until you see yourself as wonderful...not a burden to be pushed onto others...and therefore choose to NOT be present...and honest to yourself, your partner and your marriage...then you will continue to perceive, and experience life from pain and fear.

"Last night, as the kids were going off to bed, you sat with work reading materials in your lap. I started to leave and you asked if I wanted to talk. No, I didn't. I respect that things come up and you need to be the judge of their urgency and your need to spend time at home on work-related reading material. Did I want to spend time with you last night? Not under the circumstances, with your having reading material in your lap ready to go."

Why not write the truth? "I saw you sitting with work materials in your lap last night. I wanted some alone time with you and started to leave because I assumed, I DJ'd and didn't ask..."Want to talk for half an hour?" I do that a lot. I think, feel, believe and perceive for you...I can see where you feel annihilated. I wipe you out with my assumptions...I cut off our communication and chances to connect. You asked me "Do you want to talk?" and I lied to you...I chose to control you, not give you a choice to connect with me for your own good...because I blamed you for not saying, "I want to talk. I'd rather talk to you than anything else in the world." I control you with my lies, my assumptions and I feel great rejection from you, last place, because that is where I choose to put myself, time and time again.

R...your part is to act from your code...if honesty is not important to you...if you'd rather he assume you want to talk and begin speaking...whether you started to leave because you needed to run to the bathroom...if you'd rather him DJ you back..."Now you're mad at me. Fine. I'll do what you want to keep you happy."

That's what you're doing to him...it is what you are doing to yourself. I'm not phrasing it well...what I see is you and control and blame...blame and control...and that is an exhausting, heartbreaking way to choose to live.

Does he know you lie to him so often? "I want to spend time with you, having fun. Wanna do the RC inventory together for an hour tonight?"

I keep inserting time limits...they are part of honesty. They are stating what you want, for how long, and limiting YOURSELF to keeping those commitments. For that duration. With an enthusiastic, nonreactive mindset.

In your note...you tell your opinion as fact...very damaging. You mix your truth with the truth...another control issue...and you lie. Had you written..."I need you to help me out of my withdrawal. I've chained myself in self-deception, resentment and entitlement...help me, please...I want you to ask me daily for time alone together...I want you to plan RC time for us each week...I need you to ask for me...and for my part...I will not reject you. I will not set you up with DJs and unreasonable expectations...no mindreading. I'm sick of trapping myself, repeating my injuries, keeping them fresh. I need your help."

Had you said this...he would know you need his help. You didn't. You asked whys and stated your DJs like truth. Ouch. He doesn't know if you want 15 hours UA for punishment or enjoyment. Each time he asks..."Do you want me to kiss you, talk to you" you lie to him.

He's respecting your lies and taking them at YOUR TRUTH. No, you don't. No you don't want to. So much rejection...to you and to him...from fear. Pure fear...of BEING rejected...undesired...last place.

R...are you understanding I WAS doing this? Living it, believing it? It's excruciating...until I found my lies, heard them...knew them...that they came from my own DJs...I couldn't stop. Coyote in a trap, knowing my own leg off...and anyone else's as a byproduct.

Freeing myself was being honest...act from my personal standards, not basing my words and actions on what possible response I might get...instead of living manipulatively, I live freely...and my standards and boundaries match.

Yours, to my perception, do not. When our standards and boundaries are out of balance, there is internal conflict...everything hurts...betrayal is constant...aligning them relieves.

I want you to experience relief...from all the DJs.

You are reading your H's body language, gestures...and DECIDING they are rejection...and they are not. He may have put in his own code, which is acting from, that he respects you know to ask him for what you want. He has his own DJs, too...they are hurting him, as well. I truly you believe you are both in inordinate, extreme pain.

And he's doing what your counselor advised you...he is politely ignoring you and getting on with his life.

OUCH.

To protect himself.

All that you can learn and act from will benefit him and your marriage. True love...true compassion...to own your own stuff. In totality...without deception, which betrays ourselves...without withdrawal, which punishes ourselves...without abusing by defining The Truth from your own perception of it.

Free yourself, R...no limb sacrifice required...in reality, you've been chewing your own heart and to free yourself, all you have to do is STOP. Be aware. Stop all the judgment...make your goal to see with clarity, not judgment...to see to KNOW not react from...and to accept. Accept yourself, who you really are...and know your choices are yours alone.

Where you could have crawled into his lap, knocking aside the work reading, put your arms around his neck, looked into his eyes and said..."When we share our stuff, I soar." And kissing him, softly...and smile.

Let go the response...you might have experienced what I did...I spoke truthfully, shared, soared...and loved his surprised look...the uncertainty...and the smile back...and I didn't let myself go to expectations (which are premeditated resentment) of wanting him to shake with delight or kiss me passionately...anything. I revoked my permission for expectations...so I could focus on my actions...and then respect...he knew. He knows.

Do you know how you train a dog to hate you?

You say, "This is what I want...roll over" and you give him a treat. The next time you make the motion for rolling over and he does, and you kick him and say, "No, what I want this time is for you to sit up." It will take a longer time for him to sit up. When he does, you'll give him a treat.

When you give him the sign the next time, and he does, you kick him and say, "NO! What I want is for you to beg."

The dog will snarl and bite you. You will have crushed his heart and spirit. He will believe you are his enemy and are evil.

You may also believe that.

You may only see that the dog won't give you what you ask for. Dogs can't tell you. People can.

LA

This afternoon, our daughter had conferences at her school. I went. I started to tell them how they went and he pulled out his Blackberry to check emails. When he was done, I continued, and he walked out of the room into the kitchen and came back.

I do believe you have his perspective. When I complained, he said, "I don't know what it is you expect."

Respectful

And how did you answer him?
Mulan

I said nothing. He doesn't ask me questions. He makes comments in the form of rhetorical questions or statements. I have tried interpreting rhetorical questions as questions directed at me, and it has not worked. He blows up and walks away with DJs like how unreasonable I am.
Respectful

That looked like a very clear question to me. That looked like a very straightforward statement requesting information from you.

You could have chosen to answer his statement with honesty, but instead you chose to ignore him and walk away from him and give him the silent treatment - the very same things you complain about so mightily when HE does them.

Virtually all of your posts contain incidents like these. Your husband gives you some kind of opening, but you ignore him and walk away and refuse to engage him and then do nothing but complain about HIM.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: You yourself are indulging in the worst kind of passive/aggressive behaviour. You do it because you are furious at your husband for his betrayal, but you do not have the courage to deal with your anger directly. So, you use P/A behaviour instead to punish him and drive him crazy, because then you can tell yourself you are innocent and did nothing wrong.

You're trying to tell us the same thing but it ain't workin'. You are doing NOTHING positive here. There is nothing positive about ignoring your husband every time he makes an effort to connect with you, no matter how clumsy. He might have had an affair, but at this point - right now, today - you are the one who is damaging and destroying the marriage. It's not him. It's you.

As LA said, unless and until you are willing to deal openly and honestly with your husband instead of playing very nasty and vengeful passive/aggressive games and then setting yourself up as a martyr (and you do), you have no hope of repairing this.

But that's your choice. Nobody here is going to be able to talk you out of it.
Mulan

Mulan,
It wasn't a question. It was a statement. I'm too tired of this to want to play games. I suppose I could ask, "Do you want me to tell you what I expect?", but I think I've tried that approach. Believe me, Mulan, I've tried many different approaches, and none have worked. And the affair -- well, it's ancient history. The child who was colicky when the affair started is now in kindergarten. The child who was learning to read is now in junior high.
Respectful

Respectful,

Please, please, PLEASE go back to LA's last post. It contains the key to changing this deadlock you are in with your H. I rarely post, but I have read yours for years. Not only will you not engage with your H, any time a poster at MB offers constructive advice, you veer off to a new topic. And the new topic is usually, "Guess what horrible new thing he did now?"

Try one positive action. If he asks if you want to talk, say YES! Or if he asks if you want a kiss, say YES! Do what you would do if you had the marriage you wanted.

Yesss,

I read it but don't get much of it. However, I do appreciate that I am not being honest with my husband. This morning I told him that my experience of him has been so bad that I just want to get away from him. His take on it was it is all his fault who he is. He doesn't look at changing his behavior but rather at how I attack his character. I brought up that I had asked that we try to spend one hour together per week enjoyably. He said maybe we can plan tonight.

LA's interpretation of how my husband is feeling seems spot on. The problem is that I don't understand his persepctive or hers. I asked that we try to focus on creating some positive experiences instead of focusing on the negative experiences that have been throughout our marriage.

I am surprised by this -- I withdrew, I accepted he's going to do what he wants, and I cut him off emotionally and physically. His reaction could have been great -- now I've got that demanding woman off my back. Instead, he's upset. Maybe that's a good sign. Maybe he wants to create a good marriage.

Respectful

What you don't get...you don't pursue?

That, I don't get.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you want to have clarity as your life premise...to know what is...then ask for it. If you'd rather assume, stab in the dark, feel great pain inside, cause it outside, then keep on not clarifying what others mean when they tell you what their experience is, how they feel right now, and continue to reject that humans want to connect...it's coded into their makeup, their soul...and your H wants to connect.

You didn't own anything in what you said to your H...you said "Because of you, I want to run away" Ownership is, "I feel a deep urge to pull away, disconnect...I feel pain a lot when I'm around you. I'm working on identifying where it's coming from, what it means."

You are assuming your pain is coming from your H's actions...when your own perception of his stuff is causing it...you may be triggering to others who have treated you similarly, when you were a child...felt great rejection and a low priority. Our brains don't know time...they hand us old emotional signals for what they think applies to the present event...triggering us...both with pleasure and pain.

When my H whistles and snaps his fingers, I glow like a flare for a moment...my Dad used to do that, when he was happy, when we were called for dinner. That meant a good night, no stress...lots of his jokes and smiles at the table.

I warm to my DH when he does this...automatically. Not from him doing it, really, but from my Dad. Same for the silent treatment, which used to be his way of protecting himself (and I felt punished). My mother did this at times, prefacing, "I'm so disgusted with you. Get out of here. I'm not speaking to you." And she'd wave me away.

I still react when people wave something away in front of me...I flinch. Automatically. When I realized where it came from, I flinch and then know...soothe knowing that's not what they mean...look for their meaning, not my own trigger.

Healing ourselves is our responsibility...our spouses can be of great aid...listening while we share what we're aware of, working on, investigating and owning.

And I believe that many BS look for their FWS to heal them completely...all of their wounds from childhood onward, when they've been betrayed, because so many of those same wounds were wrenched opened, feel the same...abandonment, condemnation, rejection and even annihilation. Separating out the parts, being aware, accepting why we have sometimes surprising reactions to body language, words, facial expressions...when we were children, we studied those more than anything, like animals in the woods...before we knew our parents wouldn't kill us.

Or other people. Like our siblings.

Would you consider sharing with your H tonight, "I have so many wounds. I enjoy your presence, having your companionship, your focus on me" and then pick something you both enjoy...a walk together each evening, to hold hands, notice the sky, the stars, together...and remember you're in the marriage together...and give yourself a lot of attention, gentle, nonjudgmental attention, in your thoughts, to your beliefs, acknowledging your own feelings.

Keep a journal to write about you in...not him. Each time you see a male pronoun, say, "I want to stay on me." Open your door to memories, parallels; be aware when an image comes to you, what the next image that comes looks like...they are linked...listen to yourself like a wonder of nature...because you are.

State your appreciation of anything...a lot...for yourself, weather, nature, your husband, children...state it aloud...relish your voice, your courage, your honesty.

I remember my DH saying, "This is who I am. I can't change." And I look at him now, who I choose to perceive him to be...his essence...his actions...and I'm floored. As long as I was trying to control him, he feared...and acted from it. So did I...when I felt all I could do was fail him, and see him fail me. Changing my own perspective left him enough room to own his own stuff...over time, consistency, and knowing my intent was respect, he acts from love, feels loved, cherished and very important for who he is...not what he does. For the first time in his life.

I'm privileged to be his partner on his journey. He feels the same way now. Acceptance is reality, R...Judgment is fantasy.

LA

LA,
Harley has said, "Love is a willingness to change."

I cannot change my reactions to my husband's behavior, but I can change how I behave. He cannot change his reactions to me, but he can change how he behaves.

I thought it was all my problem, for years. I thought it was how I perceived what was going on. A broken arm didn't change that. But an affair did.

Yes, I know that there is a reason why I'm in this marriage, and it has nothing to do with him. I just read two books on abuse -- "The Gift of Fear" and "Protecting the Gift" -- and in it the author says that women who marry abusive men are women who don't know how to say no. I never said no growing up. Never. I did what my parents said.

With Tom, I agreed to what he wanted. I tried to support what he wanted. I literally drove myself into the ground. It's good that all I ended up with was walking pneumonia rather than a chronic condition like chronic fatigue syndrome. My whole approach to marriage was modeled on my own parents -- and my mother dominated with disrespectful judgements. Yes, I see parallels. Yes, I appreciate why I am here. We started out in my parents marriage -- with my mother dominating with verbal assaults -- and ended up in my in-laws marriage -- with my father in law treating his wife with utter contempt and neglect.

I believed in win-lose arrangements and so did he. We had interlocking problems, as one wise person told me.

The question is what to do now. I no longer believe it is all me, and I no longer believe that all I have to do is find the right thing to do that will change his behavior. Instead, I accept he has free will, and I pull away from what is unpleasant for me. If it is unpleasant, it's automatically not win-win.

Respectful