I know he went through withdrawal again because he seemed to be in foggy pattern again...But after 2 weeks NC after that brief email contact he seems to gradually clear up again...I know it's awfully hard for him to fight the urge alone and I encourge him to open up and vent his feelings to me but he doesn't seem able to at this point...
He wouldn't send an NC letter to OW, saying that it would probably kill her...But he promised never initiate any contact which he did and I believe him in this. I can still trust him I think. He has been very accountable since NC.

My questions is: how do I go reinforce absolutly no NC? There was one email in 3 months time, but that's not enough and I can see the effect on my H and our relationship because of that. But I'm not ready for plan B since I think he genuinly was doing his best at this time and he was in withdrawal and was getting better in all accounts including caring for my needs and our kids...

Another question on a second note. I feel that if he could only educate himself on what he is going through during withdrawal and how to help himself in this situation, it would help him enormously. I tried to send him emails with materials that's very relavent to his situation and I don't know if it's helpful or not since he seemed annoyed by my emails with those content. But my thinking is: he might feel annoyed, but do those mateirals eventually sink in when he has a moment to think about it? The latest I sent him was about withdrawal and how to find help to maintain NC... He refuesed to read books or listen to CDs, and I think the email is the only way for him to get those info. Am I wrong in forcing him to read? He told me those emails were annoying before but sometimes I just can't fight the urge to educate him...Am I doing the right thing or wrong thing here? Am I pushing him away or making him think clearer?

I really need help here. Any input is greatly appreciated...

LA

Loving,

What I am reading is a WS taking a break in his A. Everything that should emanate from him is being orchestrated by you to try to cure,convince,help or talk him into doing something he does not want to do at this time. You are kidding yourself and he is standing by and doing nothing.

If he was serious about your M the NC letter is a snap.

The only person "Killed" if the NC letter was written would be your WH.

Best of luck

What are the details on OW?
Have you exposed this affair to people that can influence her?
If her family (husband?) finds out she's trying to be a homewrecker, maybe she'll leave your husband alone.

Why don't you work on it from that direction -- because I can tell you right now that you are driving him away with your actions. Trying to educate him is a LOVEBUSTER -- you are DECREASING the love he feels for you. Stop it now.

Lexxxy:

OW is single, career woman, 30 yo but still stays with her parents. Had emotional problems due to previous relationship which was why she didn't want to find a place of her own. Has a slight heart defect which was why H said it would kill her. I know it's foggy talk...
H said her parents knew, but didn't do anything about it.
I guess they are eager to get her out of the house so they won't be allies to me.
She doesn't have any friends according to H.
They were former coworkers, but she moved to another company when they wanted to break up, but things got more out of hands according to H after she moved...
I know where she works, but exposing this to her new work place doesn't sound anything that can help, or does it?
I know it's an LB to try to educate him, but sometimes I feel the LB effect will be outweighed by the educational effect, but I'm thinking maybe I'm wrong here and I won't try to send furthere emails anymore...

Thanks for your input...

LA

Why has your WH chosen to not block her email addresses or change his own? This is standard, reasonable actions to protect the boundary of his marriage...same for changing cell number, home phone, etc., if those items were involved in anyway in his affair.

Sometimes, when you feel the LB effect will be outweighed by the education effect, picture your hand holding a large spoon with cough medicine in it, stabbing it down your H's throat...we eliminate LBs from ourselves because we want to be respectful, to others and ourselves...it's about us, not manipulating them.

Share what you're learning...for yourself, about yourself, outloud...that's sharing, not advising, educating, trying to change what you have no control over...and it is being intimate...if you really are sharing to share, not to educate. Intent matters.

LA

I would readdress this with him. You CAN'T trust him unless he agrees to NO CONTACT, regardless of who initiates it. If he is truly committed to no contact, it should not be an issue to send her a letter. He should send the letter and go to extraordinary lengths to avoid her. That means BLOCKING HER emails and never ever responding to any contacts that get through.

Of course it wont "kill her," that is silly. She knows the affair is over, this is no surprise to her. On the other hand, it WILL kill your marriage if he doesn't stop her from contacting him.

I do wonder if your H is holding out for a resumption of the affair, though. I wonder if he is just holding off for the time being and is not really done at all.

It is the LEAST he can do to ensure no contact. It will also be a good will gesture towards you and the first step in rebuilding trust.

I would also suggest you call her parents the next time you even get a HINT of contact because I seriously doubt they know their daughter is acting like an alley cat in heat with a married man. That is HIGHLY doubtful.

ML and LA:

Thanks for your advice.

I'm aware that WH is still not fully committed. It seems that he is fully committed one day, but not so sure another day, thus he wouldn't send the letter.

But most of the days, he sounds like he is fully committed.
A little background: he revealed the affair himself to me and wanted to move out...he did move out to a hotel with her for two days and then moved back in after I exposed his A to his family...They played a big role in blocking his A...Those two days he said he was near death, tearing between two women and his family. He said he could not imagine relive that nightmare again, thus even if our marraige don't work out, he would not return to her again...I don't know if I can belive him on this or not.

I have been giving him hope for our marriage, making home a comfortable place to return to. Helping him cope with depression and withdrawals. He couldn't even touch me the day he returned home, his body was in complete shock and distress. Now our intimacy increases day by day and he is singing and laughing again occasionally. I do think he doesn't want to go back to those nighmarish days that he had to juggle between two women.

Now it's 3 months after he returns home and I still don't have a NC letter from him to her.

My plan is to continue to let him know that no NC means no recovery and it hurts me and our kids to stay like this. It's hard to talk to him on any deep issues still, but I have to state the truth with him. I can sense that he started to care about my feelings this couple of months. I should continue giving him support and making him feel that he is making the right decision to return home. What else can I do to move things forward? I can see both of us actually want our marriage to work out, which is why I wanted to educate him, in hope that he knows what's the best way from here...He is absolutly agains any consoling...which is why I think reading books together would help...But he wouldn't do that either...So doesn't that mean I will need to continue plan A followed by plan B?

I thought about exposing this to her parents. But I'm a little worried that WH would think it's disrespectful, or this can make OW try to contact WH again...Right now they don't seem to be in contact at all and I can feel it because WH is happy again...


LA

LA, I am worried about this, but there is not much you can do right now except watch and wait. I suspect he is leaving a back door open for this affair and is just hoping to resume it when the heat wears off. That is usually why a WS won't send a nc letter. He may very well have decided to end it for the time being, hence the "honesty" about contact. A lack of willingness to send the letter and thusly, "hurt" the OP usually reflects a lack of committment which indicates an agenda.

I agree you should not contact her parents right now. UNLESS she contacts him again. Frankly, I am hoping she does because that will give you an opportunity to REALLY slam the door on this affair by exposing to HER SIDE of the family. That may effectively slam that door shut.

If she does contact him again, or vice versa, then you really must expose the affair. She needs to feel some pressure from her end to end this affair.

LA,

Can I suggest a boundary enforcement stated to WH, to support what ML said?

"I know you have realized that all contact continues the affair. If she contacts you again, I will expose to her parents. I am telling you this now, not as a threat, but as my boundary enforcement around our marriage. And I know you can choose to protect yourself from any further contact."

Are you in MC?

LA

I disagree with LAnyway on forewarning of exposure.

That will give her time to set the stage to her parents that some jealous crazy woman is harassing her. "Mom and Dad, help me...she's going around making up stories about me and her husband!"

Simply state to your husband that continuing contact with his mistress is destructive to your marriage.

Any consequences that follow are his responsibility.

[color:"blue"]Had emotional problems due to previous relationship which was why she didn't want to find a place of her own. Has a slight heart defect which was why H said it would kill her.[/color]

Ok then.

I would take advantage of this situation and completely expose to mommy and daddy OW. I would bring the most complete emotionally obliterating game possible to her.

This is about defeating a cheating low life scum bag bimbo, not about preserving the quality of life for a saint.

OW will one day be better off from all of the repercussions that her choices have wrought upon her; she just will not see that for a long time.

You may not either.

IF she has violated NC, then I would EXPOSE completely all over again and make it clear that her continued efforts at contact will only result in more harm to her.

If her heart gives out along the way, [censored] happens.

I could go as far to say that if I don’t get a million dollars by midnight my leg could fall off at the hip joint, but you think that will happen?

Best regards,

My experience with forewarning the WS about exposures is that they will pre-empt the exposure by spinning the facts to the target. For example, they will be told that LA is an "insanely jealous nutjob who believes I am trying to get her H!" So when LA does make that call, she is so thoroughly discredited that they reject everything she says.

It is for this reason that I believe exposure should never be used as a threat. Best to just do it if it needs to be done lest she lose this leverage altogether via pre-emption.

I very much agree with Lovinganyway that a discussion about boundary enforcement needs to take place. If it were me, since I am from Texas I would say: "if that ho contacts you again I will pistol whip her!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But, I imagine there are probably better ways to express this [besides, LA might not have a pistola <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />] and I think Lovinganyway is very good at this sort of thing and perhaps she can make a suggestion?

Well, I thought the difference here was that there was NC in place and a recommitment to the marriage...ML and Lexxy have a great point...normally, you don't forewarn, you fore-arm...(in ML's case, uh, that's literally!)

Plank has my vote because she violated the contact...though I hold WH accountable for NOT changing what needs to be changed to make contact really difficult. You can't make him and by NOT doing so, he isn't protecting your marriage's boundary...so he's making it vulnerable.

Capish?

You do what is right...to do the right thing...which you won't regret...OW isn't making you do something to her...she chose to contact and therefore opened herself up to the consequences of it.

Expose to her parents right now...and put a real boundary enforcement, predetermined and progressive, in place for your WH choosing to remain available to her contact efforts. You can't control his choices, only the logical consequences.

LA


ML - You believe WH would warn OW of exposure? That would be two-way contact and would still fall under LA's boundary enforcements, wouldn't it?

LA

LA, I do think he would definitely warn the OW. He is so protective and sympathetic that he won't send a nc letter because it would "harm" her. I think that would be a huge risk to one of the best leverages she has.

Thanks everybody. I never thought about exposing to OW's parents would help, but I'm having second thoughts here.
WH told me that her parents knew and I know for sure that WH either talked to them on the phone or in person before to confirm that OW did have a heart condition: he was suspecting her for manipulating him so he went to get some confirmation from her parents ?! That's truly what he did.
And he told me that OW's parents don't speak much English and they are first generation immigrants from Eastern Europe. I'm a little afraid to call them for fear that I can't get myself understood properly. So if I need to expose to her parents, what's the best way to do it? What's the words I should use to convey the facts to an old couple with limited English?
I also feel it might work to tell WH before exposure because even if she got forwarned, her parents knew that she had a former boyfriend, just that they didn't know he was married, so she can't just fabricate a story to discredit me. What do you think?

Latest development: I tried to restate my boundary last night and it turned out bad. Partly it's because I couldn't say it in a calm way and partly because WH went into an angry mode. He seemed very unsure about his committment anymore and he said we should rethink our future together.
He said he didn't think we could work out because I could never be happy again and I could never trust him again after the A and he felt home was like a prison. etc..etc...You know what they say when they are in fog...
But this morning he was busy making our future plans for the weekend again with kids and friends...even making plans to drive together to NC to buy furinture for our house...I know he didn't really have a plan and just want to escape this boundary thing for now...But what do I do? I don't feel like I'm doing a good plan A because I realize that I have been using a lot of LB lately and whenver that happens, WH would distant out. Whenever I try to meet his needs, he seems to warm up and seems very committed again. Should I keep meeting his needs and try to bring up the boundary issue in a better environment? I did make sure that he knew that this issue is nonnegotiable and is the base for his recommitment.

Again, thank you for your thoughts. That's what's kept me going now. I was really devastated last night hearing all those hurtful things from WH...

LA

loving,



Your WH just once again stated HIS boundaries in explicit detail AND he did such a great job, you are taking responsibility for" it turned out bad"

He is holding this over your head LA.
Everytime you try to have a relationship discussion or impose boundries -- he pulls out his withdrawal card.
Its total manipulation.

And by the way -- don't believe anything of what he told you about OW's parents. He's throwing roadblocks in your path.
1. They speak poor english (that will intimidate you from contacting them because of the language barrier)
2. He's already told them (sure he has, but if you believe it, then maybe you'll just cross this off your list.)
3. He had to verify her heart problem (ummm WHY? is she dishonest? I thought she was a SAINT!?)
4. Even if they by some small chance know he exists -- they most certainly do not know the whole truth...that her boyfriend is MARRIED.

LA -- question EVERYTHING. You were told those things for a reason, but you have NO FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE of any of this. Until you do it YOURSELF, its all just heresay.

Contact them immediately. Do NOT forewarn the infidels that you are doing it.

And by the way, from his foggy talk I would not doubt at all that they are back in regular contact. Consider that too.

Hi everybody:
Here is another update.
During the weekend, we did talk a little. I set my boundaries again and after a lot of struggle, he said he would let me know if she would initiate an email again. Didn't agree to send an NC letter.
I thought about exposing to OW's parents. Called twice but didn't get anybody picking up the phone. Her parents work also I guess and I don't know when to call to get them and if I get OW instead, she won't pass the phone to her parents because I think she would sense it's me. We spoke once very briefly on the phone.
I was thinking about sending a letter to her parents, but it's also very possible that she would get it before them since she is the one who is supporting them financially.
Plus I'm not sure if I should expose either because right now there hasn't been any contact for another 3 to 4 weeks already, of coures it's per WH. I know there are no phone contact, but they have been using my WH's business email so I have no way to know by to believe what he told me. And I do have a 6 sense when there is contact: he would start foggie talk all over again and recently he hasn't.

I was thinking about seeking help from one of his college friend also. I know he has a wonderful family and he is friends to both of us and he was good friend with WH in college years. Should I expose to him and ask some help from him? In what way? Should I forward my email to his friend of his to WH so he knows that I'm seeking help for our M?

WH has been on and off with working on our M. I didn't expose to our friends yet and we planned to go on a trip to NC to buy furniture for the house. We also planned to have a ski trip with friends during Christmas time. WH seemed committed to M to make those trips.
I don't see him getting back with OW. And I don't see him initiating contact either. But how do I get her to stop initiating email to him? She seems to only initiated once during 3 months, should I just wait and hope she won't intiate again? She seems to have a great sense of pride and cut down contact with WH whenever she felt not loved... And WH abandoned her pretty cruely in my view, saying that he would pick her up to check for apartments, but returned home and stopped contact with her, how could she belive him again, I wonder? Well, I guess I could never understand people in their situation so well...
Anyway, should I expose or not and how? I'm afraid if I did when they didn't have contact, it's going to hurt our recovery...
It's just another bad day for me and I really need directions in this confusing time...

Loving

Have you thought about installing a key logger on your home PC and get the password to his work email to check and make sure he is not still in contact w/her?

It's been some time and here is an update and some more questions.

Things have been genenrally going well lately. There has been no contact at all since last email which happened in late September. H has been warming up to me little by little, getting very involved in kids and our friends. Bought furnither together. Planned ski trip with friends during Christmas holiday. Last weekend, he was looking at a family portrait place and told me that we should take some pictures like that. Those are all positive signs.

But, here comes but. No NC letter. Last time I pushed for that was a month ago and he was hesitant. Now I'm unsure either. Because there has been no contact for over 4 months with only one email contact in the middle. Is it still necessary to push for NC? This actually NC was established because WH determined not to initiate contact and OW decided NC because of his not initiating I guess. WH told me that when OW got angry, she wouldn't respond to his call for days to punish him. This time WH dumped her and has not initate contact for 4 months and OW must be very angry and wouldn't initiate contact out of pride. OW is single, attrative woman according to WH. Now is it still necessry to push for NC? What if OW decided to initate contact again some time down the road? WH promised to let me know but is it enough? I don't feel enough. I still fear that someday her email is going to drag WH down again.

If I have to push for NC letter, how do I go do it?

I have been basically in plan A after WH came back home. I feel that whenever I pushed for R talk or NC talk, our relationship slipped a little and it took days to recover. We are kind of like in a dance, whenever he comes closer, I got angrier about the A and wanted to withdraw. And whenever he withdraws a little, I feel more passion inside and can draw him back in pretty easily by caring about him and doing no LBs. What's going on here?

I feel that the root of our problem is that we haven't really talked about the meaning and why's of the A yet.
Plus there is no NC letter sent. I read SAA myself ( WH refuses to read books with me) and it says that only initiate A talk when you have enough love deposit in each other's bank. My situation is that whenever I feel that we are close enough to initiate deep talks, he withdraws and couldn't deal with it.

It's a deep romantic A as far as I know. I'm very confident that the A is over and WH wants to commit to our future together. My fear is that he will hold onto the fantacy of her and alwasy have her in a special place by not talking about it and keep their story a secret from me. I don't think I can deal with that in the future.

What do I do from here? I still don't feel safe in my M and WH is doing not exactly the right thing to make me feel safe again.

Thanks again for your support.