For those of you dealing with P/A (Passive/Aggressive) WS or FWS, let this be a cautionary tale for you.

Things have been much better lately but I felt sure something would happen sooner or later. P/A behaviour is very hard to break, especially when it's been going on for many years.

We just got back from a great four days in Las Vegas. It was for a business conference and I went along, too. A few of his employees were there, too, but all males. I have yet to be invited to anything when the girls are around.

But I made the best of it, dressed up in fabulous new clothes, and we had a great time. It seemed to be a real success (with the unspoken message of "see how much fun we can have when you don't cut me out of your social life at work?")

So much fun that it seemed a real shame we had to come back early Friday so he could catch a plane for yet another business trip to China on Saturday morning - but that's what we did.

Now, I have to admit that I was just plain stupid about this China trip. He's been going over there repeatedly because his Real Big American Company is trying to get their American credit cards to work on the Chinese network. He mentioned that on this trip they would be going around to some shops and stores to do "secret shopping" - yeah, he and the other 6'+ white guys, and a couple of white girls, not to mention the African-American guy, are really going to blend in there in Beijing and Shanghai - but, whatever.

The mistake I made was this: I would never have thought that his Company would spend thousands and thousands of dollars to fly six people from the U.S to two cities in China and put them up at five-star hotels unless the trip was REALLY necessary and there were ALSO going to be meetings, negotiations, and all that stuff as there normally is and that really does require a physical presence.

I was wrong. This was not a business trip at all. It was time to test the cards, which any idiot already in China could have done, but somebody decided hey, it would be way more fun for a bunch of coworkers to get together for an all-expense-paid trip to China and let THEM test the cards instead!

And that's what they did. That's ALL that these very high-level executives did for a WEEK - left their own offices to go to China, shop, and "test the cards." There were no business meetings. There were no negotiations. It was entirely shopping, sightseeing, dining and entertainment. They went to the Forbidden City, among other places. They stayed in five-star hotels. They dined out at the very best places.

In other words, this was nothing but a Company-paid vacation that H took without me while letting me think it was a "business trip". Two of the coworkers traveling around with him for all these activities are female.

He travels way, way too much as it is, going to Chicago and China most often. He is gone more than he is home. If I had know that this was NOT a "business trip", but was in fact a big fat reward and pat on the back for getting this deal set up, I would of course have seriously questioned the need for it and asked why he would leave his family sitting home alone AGAIN to go take what was really a vacation without us.

So - no way was he going to tell me the truth about this trip ahead of time. He clearly was not about to POJA this trip because he might have had to miss it, knowing full well he had no good reason to go.

So, he pulled out the P/A sledgehammer and just did what he pleased without telling me the whole truth.

WHAM

He has made a huge deal out of the fact that he turned down a business trip to Japan in December because he wants us to go to Hawaii instead.

I can only assume that the Japan trip must really be just boring negotiations without much chance for sightseeing or fun, because he couldn't get out the door fast enough for this China trip less than 12 hours after we got back from Vegas.

The only thing keeping me afloat is knowing that this is P/A stuff and he's going to have to own it. I probably won't even be home this weekend. I've already told him that I know he deliberately kept the truth from me so he wouldn't have to miss a fabulous vacation in China with some female coworkers - the same ones who have been on many trips with him before.

WHAM

As Peter Gabriel says: SLEJ HAMMAH!

{{mulan}}

It is a shame but very many companies send people on boondoggles. Maybe it is a "reward" but they have to call it a "business trip" so that the IRS won't consider it taxable income to your husband. Company sponsored vacations are taxable as benefits in kind. In the companies I have worked for, I have seen far worse. Part of him protecting the image of the trip is because what he is doing (if it is as you say) is somewhat illegal although a little hard to prove.

The issue from my POV is not that he went but that he went in a cloud of mistrust when he should know that is the last thing you two need. If it wasn't a real business trip, he should have stayed home for your sake.

Dr. Bill says you should travel with him as much as you can ... maybe you should announce this to him.

I cannot help but feel he has snowed you with this "fear of control" he has no fear of control' He is IN control all the time and you just realised it. He allowed you to make the "fear of control" speech and it worked perfectly for him, he just acted as if that conversation gave him a permission to do as he wanted, and continue to hide it from you. You just didn't know.

My P/A husband's Psych,(Contra to current board psycho babble, his psychologist calls H P/A, says it is his diagnosis, like Bi polar would be, not temporary behaviour) agrees that my husband is telling the truth when he tells me he is addicted to being a "victim", that he has no fear of me controlling him. If I could ever have done that he would be a different man. So DH used to use the "control" conversation as part of his "victim" scenario. I refused to buy into that on the orders of PhD, and I never hear it now, just a little initial denial when I call him on stuff, and that lasts less and less time, each occurrence.

I am so sorry your H has pulled this one on you, you have given me such great support when I was at my lowest, you don't deserve this. I thought when you told us of the "control" speech, it was your H's particular expression of his P/A, but he doesn't seem to have stopped being in control, just went stealth for a while.

I do not know what to suggest other than having the opposite speech with him. Tell him you realise he snowed you, he has all the control and is using anything you come up with, (trying to be non invasive into his feelings), to snow you again using your own assumptions of what makes him feel safer.

Maybe time to bolster your own strength. Do something good for yourself. You are a much valued member of these boards to so many of us.

Try to spoil yourself this weekend.

One question I have never asked before, do you have a psychologist, experienced in P/A who can "coach" you? It sure has helped me even though I have only talked to him about it twice, since I was really in a mess and doubting myself after the DR. Bill incident.

You helped me get there, maybe my suggestion will give you some ideas.

Linda

Exactly. He's got an 18-year-old son who needs him too, but H insists that it doesn't hurt DS18 at all for Dad to be gone all the time and *I'm* the only one who struggles when H is gone.

And it's not like H has never been to China and this was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. He's been there at least half a dozen times in the past two years - probably more, I can't even remember because the trips all run together.

But even worse, HE'S GOING BACK IN THREE WEEKS FOR THE "CONTRACT-SIGNING CEREMONY", which will feature even MORE fabulous entertainment and perks because the very top company bigwigs will be there. You may well see something about it on the cable news networks.

His justification for going this time: "We had to be there and do all this shopping to understand the market."

Excuse me while I bust out laughing. He ALWAYS buys TONS of stuff at everything from high-end stores to black market street merchants, including (on an early trip) strings of real pearls for two of his female coworkers - both of which were his direct reports at the time. He knows how the Chinese market works inside and out.

Even though I've been expecting something along these lines and I now understand P/A tactics when I see them, it still hurts like h*ll to get hit with that Invisible Sledgehammer. If any of your spouses, either FWS or WS, have P/A tendencies, stay alert. You can get hit again at any time.

At least I know what to do now. I am handling this much better than I ever have before. And if my hands would stop shaking and if I could eat something without feeling sick, hey, I'd be swell!
Mulan

Hey Mulan:

One thing that I have learned about people who are passive-aggressive is that the behavior is many-layered and very deep. For my husband, it was/is a baseline part of his personality, learned in childhood and honed over decades. He did it without thinking, without planning. It was almost at the level of instinct for him.

I don't think it can be conquered simply by a partner "calling him on it." It can only be changed with a serious act/acts of will by the person himself with a lot of help over a long period of time.

You can and are doing your part, but it isn't going to stop until HE truly decides he wants it to and does the work to make it stop.

Tru

"if my hands would stop shaking and if I could eat something without feeling sick, hey, I'd be swell!"

Oh Mulan - wish I could grow wings and fly down and coddle you ... sweet herbal teas and scones ... soft music and a nice soft shawl .... I'd even read you a book ... I love Wilbur Smith ... maybe you would too...

Linda

Hi silverpool,

Oh, I'm doing okay, really. Like I said, I figured something would happen sooner or later and tried to be ready for it when it did.

About the control thing - maybe I shouldn't have said "fear" of being controlled; he's just got a real hatred and massive resistance against anything that he thinks is controlling behavior towards him by anyone else. Any mention of POJA would only elicit the snarl of "That feels like control!" which to him justified resisting it with every fiber of his being. It's as if asking to him to POJA was the same as asking him to stop breathing. He fought it just as hard.

So no, he doesn't really have a fear of being controlled because he knows exactly how to prevent it every time and is quite comfortable doing so!

But yes, he IS very heavily invested in being a victim as well and before I realized this I played right into it by going ballistic every time he pulled another P/A stunt. I am trying my best not to do so anymore.

thanks for responding -
Mulan

Hi Tru,
Yes, you are certainly right about this. "Calling him on it" did bring about a tremendous improvement, but unless and until HE decides to do things differently it will not permanently change.

I guess it just depends on how long I can hold out if he refuses to make the changes himself. And I'm understanding that now.
Mulan

I played into it for about 19 years, didn't even know it was there.

Boy this is a hard journey. My H is working on it and his episodes get further and further apart, and smaller and smaller. About 7 days now and usually response driven, not self instigated. He cannot see any effect on me apart from briefly commenting on it and then removing myself or the converstion away from him.

I am torn between telling him he is getting better (which I do) and him becoming complacent and slipping back. His Psych cannot tell how long it will take, and my coach told me a couple of years ago it could be still be 4 - 8 years, even if he co operates, and he is doing much better than he expected,

I hate having to be alert and never letting it go, but it is like letting a kid not use proper posture, they will walk that way for the rest of their lives, if their parents don't see and correct it. Coach used that example as he knows I am aware of people's body posture and gait. Duh, they know us so well these psychs.

Take care, ooh, when I am a millionaire I will whisk you off to China to surprise him on one of his trips - he would love that!

Linda

Hey Mulan:

I held out for a long time, but that was during the period where I didn't understand what he was doing or that he was doing it deliberately.

Knowing what I know now, I don't think I would be able to "hang on" for very long. Even knowing that the behavior stems from fear, and even knowing that it's a defense mechanism born of abuse or at least poor parenting. I don't think I could sit still for long knowing that someone is lying to me, and deliberately trying to fool/hurt me.

When does loyalty and hope cross the line into self-abuse and martyrdom? I don't know about you, but I feel I crossed that line often in the first phase of my life. Part of my healing is to not cross it again.

I'm thinking of you. I have some inkling of how hard this is for you. There are cities that I can't even think of without wanting to cry, knowing my husband spent time there with his affair partner when he was supposed to be "on business." The worst part is that I felt sorry for him at having to be away from home so much. What a cruel joke.

It's very difficult to fight this stuff when they get such benefits from doing it. Your husband gets a week's vacation with adoring subordinates. A week where he gets to dole out the perks and is seen as the wonderful all-giving leader. I know my husband was very addicted to that, and to the power of being able to do whatever he wanted, no matter how it affected others.

When he crashed though, he crashed hard. I hope your H doesn't learn the same way.


Tru -- (edited to add last paragraphs and to say that it would give me great pleasure to give your H a good swift kick in the *ss.)

Boy, you said it all. He has been powerfully addicted to the mainline drug of Admiration practically since Day One of going to work for this company over 20 years ago. That place is like a crack house for Admiration addicts and H has long used P/A tactics to get his fix at every opportunity, whether it's ditching me for lunch with some bimbo or ditching me for a week alone with "adoring subordinates" in China. It's an old, old pattern.

There is no way I can ever compete with the crack house. I have offered him all I have and he has seen over the past few months how good our life can be when we treat each other as partners to be cared for and protected, but that did not stop him from swinging the Sledgehammer again this week when he had that chance to go on a pleasure trip to China and was afraid Mommy might say no.


He may well never crash - not as long as he has that job. P/A tactics work real, real good for high-level executives. Those same tactics destroy marriages and other personal relationships, but I don't think anybody or anything will ever convince H of that.

I think what will eventually happen is that he will finally dump me as he has threatened to do, or I will finally have no choice but to move out to save what's left of my sanity, and he'll end up with some wonderful little 25-year-old bimbo who eventually ends up just as crazy as I did - and he will have NO clue as to why.

Oh, well. I have done all I could. I really have. I can look back and say I cannot think of a single additional thing I could have done to help the situation. I did all I could and things really have been good at home.

But he still made the choice to swing the Sledgehammer. Things being good at home did not affect that decision in the slightest.
Mulan

There is more you can do, there is more .... you are early days yet and in the most painful part, we need to talk if you want to work on the next step/s - it is just a case of working out how and what your next step is, but it is there. The choices may not be those you wish to take and you once again have to commit yourself to changing your behaviours once again. But you are moving up steps and have moved up the most painful (unknowing)ones/ The future painful ones you will be more prepared for and so they will not have the "slam" that this one had.

Linda

hmmm, does your H's company have, oh I dunno, maybe something like stockholders?

Or an ethics department maybe?


Was H raised this way? Some sort of patriarchal system on steroids? I’ve seen this in a fair number of 2’nd generation Far East emigrant families, for example.

Tru,

I understand about the cities.

There are exotic places all over the world I do not want to go to now because FWW was there on "business" with OM.


Let me rephrase that. I may go, but on my own adventure.

Hi silver, Yes, I do understand what you are saying. Now that the P/A stuff has been recognized, it's a great relief, but that doesn't mean it's over. You're right that now the real work begins (if I live that long) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

To H's credit, he has profusely apologized and has offered to talk some more about how to keep this sort of thing from happening again. He's got another trip to China in three weeks, and this one is going to be a party and a half. You may even see it on the cable news networks.

The real problem, as I see it, is not just that he goes on trips - it's this longstanding and deeply entrenched Corporate Aristocracy that he's been a full-fledged member of for many, many years. And that Aristocracy feels fully entitled to help themselves to whatever perks and goodies come their way (including women, especially female co-workers), no matter how much destruction that causes at home and no matter how much of a massive disconnect they have with the hourly-wage "peasants" who make up the primary workforce at his company.

I was one of those "peasants" at his company for over eight years. I have seen first-hand the way the "peasants" are treated and seen first-hand the way the Aristocracy is treated. The disconnect is enormous and the entitlement mentality is very, very real.

Last week in China he and his group went to the Forbidden City, the place where the emperors lived.

I asked him why there were no emperors in China any more.

And why there is no longer a French royal family.

And why there is no longer a Russian royal family.

He didn't know.

I told him he might want to find out. Maybe one of those Corporate Aristocracy guys from Enron or Qwest or Tycho Toys could explain it to him.
Mulan