Hi, All

I posted my story about six weeks ago and, since I don't post much, will repeat it below. I think I know what I'm doing and what I need to do, but I would really appreciate any reassurance or advice you guys can offer.

Since my last post, several things have happened. The first is that I have been feeling much, much better. The change coincides with a change in medication, but also with me finally accepting that I can't fix her (and shouldn't try), that if she really wants to leave, she can, and I will be okay.

That was about six weeks ago. Shortly after that, I had my first session with Jennifer C. She helped me a lot--read my story and told me that my wife is tired. Emotionally exhausted and has no energy left to try to make the marriage work. She recommended a soft sell--a version of Plan A: work at meeting her needs, eliminate LBs, and go slow. Recognize that she will resist. I started trying to subtly meet her needs, and I think I was doing it well (but not perfect). No real observable change, but I recognize that things take time.

Then, three weeks ago, my wife got fired from her job. Huge emotional blow, because her job was an enormous part of her identity (especially lately). I was totally shocked, but I guess she wasn't. I did everything I could to be supportive and told her that, despite what she might think, I didn't feel triumphant and wasn't happy that she had lost her job. She rejected all my attempts at providing comfort, and since they were making her uncomfortable, I backed off. I'm disappointed but not too surprised that she refused me.

Since then, I resumed my subtle Plan A. Trying to be supportive and make EN-meeting gestures without being smothering. Asked her if there are things I'm doing that make her unhappy, because I absolutely don't want to do that. I know that I am doing the best I can.

I've been avoiding talking about the marriage, but today she kind of initiated a discussion. She reiterated that she thinks the marriage is going nowhere. She recognizes my attempts to meet her needs but knows that "they're not being received the way I want." When I ask what that is, she says "Well, you would like me to reciprocate." I say, "Well, yeah, but I know that you can't right now, so that's okay."

Some other stuff from the conversation:

-In the back of her mind, she doesn't trust that the changes in behavior I'm attempting are real and that I'm just doing what it takes to save the marriage whatever the cost.

-She doesn't want to get trapped in a loveless marriage (and that's what it is right now)

-She's afraid of history repeating itself

-She knows that I care but that we went too long--the emotional connection is gone. There's too big a chasm between us now.

-She has no hope of improvement in our relationship, and one person's hope isn't enough. She doesn't feel the connection and doesn't see that it might return someday. She has no desire to attempt to connect with me. I think she recognizes that I have completely changed my behavior, but it doesn't seem to be enough.

-She can't be convinced (at least not by me) that people's feelings change and that over time, things will likely get better.

-She says there's nothing wrong with her (not that I said there was)

-She's really unhappy and has trouble being in the house with me. When I try to probe annoying behaviors, it sounds like my existence annoys her. She said most of what is making her unhappy is me (the fact that we're not connected).

-She says she would still like for us to remain married (she just doesn't think it's possible and certainly doesn't know how to make it happen).

I kind of regret getting caught up in the conversation, because I don't think it helped anything (I can say positive, supportive, hopeful things until I'm blue in the fact without apparent effect), plus it was like being kicked in the stomach for me. I'm mostly over it already, because I think most of what she said is babble. I think that I need to keep doing what I'm doing--keep up my thick skin and know that there will be times like this. There still are lots of reasons to be hopeful.

Right?

SDGuy's story:

Our marriage is in serious trouble.

Me: 38, PhD, clinical depression, INTP
Her: 39, some post-graduate, computer professional
Married almost 14 years, together 16
Children: boy, 6, girl, 3

Both introverted and intelligent, both with challenging, demanding jobs. We got along well without ever learning to communicate about feelings with one other, probably through co-dependency and because we didn’t challenge one another. I’m sure that this allowed lots of unresolved issues to pile up, but these didn’t become too bad until the kids came along.

In the months before my daughter was born, I began working very hard. I said at one point that it felt like the demands of work were grinding me to dust. I realize now that my depression kicked up a gear at about that time but was not treated appropriately. My response to this was to withdraw. My wife comes from a family where communication and recognition of feelings was not emphasized, so she wasn’t aware of how she was becoming unhappy, and so we began to grow apart. I don’t believe that the problems we experienced were more significant than most people suffer.

After my daughter was born, things probably got worse. We never recognized the importance of working on our relationship (they don’t teach you that). We both worked very hard, and any excess time went into the kids. I began to realize that she wasn’t happy and concluded it was because she was working too hard.

Her affair with a co-worker lasted approximately six months and ended nine months ago. Because I have read here, I understand the importance of no-contact and urged this (and for her to change jobs) but did not demand it, and she continued to work in the same office. She gets great satisfaction from her job and doesn’t think she can find another one like it, so she refused to leave. I now think that so much of her identity was/is tied up in her job that she could not even conceive of leaving.

I don’t know that it matters anymore. It has been nine months, and she says that she is over him. I am told and believe that their conduct and interaction has been strictly professional except for two occasions (when she expressed concern for and had some conversations about how the OM was getting along with his spouse). I absolutely do not believe that she is lying to me (she has told me enough painfully honest things), and so when she tells me that she is over him, I at least believe that she believes she is.

We have each been in IC as well as seeing a MC for the last eight months. The IC has been helpful for me, but the MC hasn’t gotten us anywhere. For the first six or so months after I found out, I was on the roller coaster of insanity, looking for her to help me in ways that she could not. Love-busting and disrespectful judgements couched in attempts to be constructive and help her “figure things out.” Unrealistic expectations. Feeling like she wasn’t trying. Then I feel like I turned a corner and was actually in a place where we could begin to rebuild, but she had largely given up hope. That’s how it’s been for the past three months—she has mostly given up hope, and as I have felt things slipping away, I have been more and more afraid and thus more depressed. The tension in the house has amped up—me looking for signs that she’s not going to quit and her feeling bad for not being able to do and feel the things she thinks she “ought” to be able to. She doesn’t know what to do with all the emotion I experience, and sometimes I don’t know how to hide it.

We just had two weeks apart. One week where I was on vacation with the kids and my family and then a week where I had to travel for business while she kept the kids. It was a relief for her—being away from the tension. When I came back, the tension came back.
Within a couple of days, she told me that she was done and thinks we need to separate.

When I ask her what she wants, she tells me that she wants for us to remain a family, to be in love with her husband, and to be happy. To want to come home at night. But she has given up hope on being able to get there—to recapture the feelings we used to have. That there are differences between what you want and what you can do. She doesn’t know what else to do, and she has no interest in trying to do things that might help us connect with one another. From my perspective, there was never a time where we were each able to try to connect in ways that might be successful. I firmly believe we can rediscover feelings for one another. I think there are plenty of possible reasons why she’s having difficulty finding feelings for me, and thus I feel like it’s too soon to quit.

She says it’s bad for the children to be around two parents who aren’t happy. I maintain that this is a temporary thing, that our lives don’t have to be full of tension and unhappiness the way they are now, and that it’s a certainty that divorce will not be good for the kids.

Predictably, I have fears that she will wind up back with the OM and that subconscious desires have prevented her from reconnecting with me. She tells me that this is not the case and that she is over him. As I indicated before, I believe what she tells me, or at least that she believes it.

If she had told me that she had thought about it and has decided that I am a jerk and that she just doesn’t want to live with me, I would probably approach things differently. But the kinds of things she tells me (“I think it’s just been too long,” “I can’t change the way I feel”) and that she thinks it’s hopeless because she can’t see any path forward sound to me like quitting too soon. She doesn’t really have anyone to discuss these things with (her parents and siblings don’t know) aside from her IC, and she has no confidence in our MC. I try to paint a picture of a happy future and help her see what is possible, but I think it comes across as pushing and laying on expectations (and making her feel bad that she can’t meet them).

I think that the only thing I can do is look out for myself. I have tried everything I could to be supportive (almost certainly above and beyond what was actually constructive). If she is determined to go, she can go. I know that I can’t make her believe or want or feel things, and that as long as she doesn’t believe in or want to recover our marriage, she will probably not be able to feel the things she needs to.

Jennifer C. can help your wife, why not set up an appointment for her to talk to her on her own? Dr. Bill usually talks to both people alone so he can get to see each point of view and then he sees them together - He says so on this site. It is now your wife's turn to talk to JC.

Linda

Hi sdguy, I have read your story and I unfortunatly can relate to how your wife is feeling because that was me for a very long time. Absolutely NO HOPE for our marriage. I also had lots of stress and uncertainty occuring at work and then my Dad died after being sick for an extended time(strained relationship that never got any better even with the knowledge that he did not have much time left).

The big difference is, my DH did not know I was cheating on him nor did he know about this site or the concept of plan A.

However he did figure out that our marriage was very close to over, and he, like you are now, made significant changes in order to keep our family together.

I am sorry to say it took me a REALLY long time to allow his changes to truely penetrate my shell. But the good news is, they finally did. so much so that I even confessed all in order to really commit and put myself totally into the marriage.

of course, now we are dealing with it all, but that is not the important part to you.

The important part to you is yes, I can give you some reassurance and a pat on the back too. You are doing a wonderful thing and your commitment to your wife, the marriage, your family is something you should be really proud of.

And so for now, i will stand in for your wife and say THANK YOU!!!

And I will pray that someday soon, your wife will let you back in at which time she herself can thank you.

sdguy - If all you want is reassurance, then yes, your marriage CAN recover and your wife CAN "fall in love with you" again.

It took more than a year for my wife's feelings to BEGIN to return. It took four years for us to reach "Recovered," and I can tell you that my wife is very much in love with me now.

But change does not happen overnight and it doesn't happen on it's own. It takes work, commitment, and patience.

Let's look at your wife's "list":



sdguy - you and your wife are NOT the first couple to be faced with this situation nor are you the first couple to be at what seems a "hopeless stage." So the best reassurance I can give you both is that many, including myself and my wife, who have "been where you currently are" and who made the commitment and did the hard work "one day at a time" HAVE recovered their marriages and their love for each other. If it's been done by others, it can be done by you...if you are willing to at least try.

But a horse can be led to water (i.e. MarriageBuilders' steps in rebuilding marriages), but that same horse can't be MADE to drink. The horse has to decide to drink if they are going to survive, and perhaps regain the "health" they wish for.

God bless.

Thanks, guys

It gets really hard sometimes, as I'm sure you all know. I'm totally committed, but I can't say the same for my wife. I can only hope she comes out of the fog before she gives up.

I think maybe I need to get coached by Jennifer C on how to deal with the fogtalk, because the conversation yesterday really took a lot out of me. I know and believe most of how you (ForeverHers) dismantled my wife's comments, but my wife believes what she believes and doesn't know how to/is afraid to/won't open her mind to the idea that, for example, her feelings might be betraying her.

And Finally, your post was inspirational. Thanks very much.

Okay, why IS she still there? Why hasn't she already "moved on" and began divorce proceedings?

In other words, WHAT, in HER mind, is keeping her there despite all the negatives she wants to lean on?

I'm not sure. I think perhaps it's because she hasn't really faced the reality of divorce. I really try to avoid talking about it, but in a bad moment a few weeks ago (after she had printed out divorce paperwork but not done anything with it), I asked "Why haven't you left yet?" and she responded "Where would I go?" Maybe she is waiting for me to agree with her and give up and help her with the divorce and let her have the house. It's not going to happen.

She's really unhappy and has trouble being in the house with me. When I try to probe annoying behaviors, it sounds like my existence annoys her. She said most of what is making her unhappy is me (the fact that we're not connected).

Yep, no doubt about it. Your mere presence is a continually "affront" to her because it reminds her every day that she is and adulteress. That's NOT a "good feeling," and her Taker wants to blame YOU and not her own choices. Fogtalk that you will have to bear up with for a while until she really does actively get involved in recovery efforts.

So I agree with this. I'm not doing anything to make her unhappy other than not giving up. She hasn't really been able to look at me for a long time. But the only course of action for me is to keep up the Plan A (right?) and make it as non-smothering as I can. If I'm too nice, I think it makes it harder for her to look at me (because she knows she can't reciprocate and that makes her feel bad), but any slips I make are fuel for "See, I always knew you were a jerk."

Sometimes I think my wife is picking fights with me--subtly disparaging things that she knows I like or are important to me. I don't think it's a conscious thing, because I have mentioned it to her, and she didn't seem to know she was doing it.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Is it typical Fogtalk?

Hi again sdguy,

i'm glad what i wrote might have been helpful. I don't read/post here quite as often as i used to. for me, reading/posting too much was hampering my ability to move forward. at the same time, i still need help!! and i also like to try to give help too. so here i am.

anyway, i thought i would look you back up to see how you were doing...

ForeverHers, beat me to the punch. i was going to say the same thing.

she is still there.

and IMHO that really does mean something.

in my scenerio, i could have easily been on my own financially. that was not keeping me. i truely believed the kids would be ok although i did know that it would not be ideal for them. and i even figured i would be ok not seeing the kids everyday and for me, that was saying a lot because i am VERY involved in my kids. but i knew that would not change, regardless of where they slept everynight. i knew we would live close to each other.

so why, during all the time that i really really really didn't want to be married anymore, did i not leave??

I didn't want to hurt him. i didn't want to leave him alone. i didn't want him to not be this his kids everyday. i didn't want him to have financial hardships.

why? because i really did still love him.

i was not going to do anything until i had finally convinced him that this was the right thing to do.

he never let me convince him.

i can think of many times back then when he would say... "but i truely believe that we belong together for life".

ya know, i think i will send him an email right now thanking him for all the times he said just that.

now, i don't really know you or your wife, so i cannot promise you that everything will work out.

i can only tell you my experience.

for me, it was my husbands unbelievable and unbreakable commitment (along with his desire to change) that saved my marriage.

as for the picking fights.... we all do that, don't ya think. when we are in a cranky mood. some might call it "waking up on the wrong side of the bed."

unfortunatley, unhappy/frustrated people, people not internally at peace, will wake up on the wrong side of bed more often.

know what i mean?

Wow. Another inspirational post, with just the kind of perspective I was looking for.

Thank you so much.

People are obviously different, but I wonder whether there were particular things he did that made it easier for you to come back? She's so unhappy and doesn't want/can't accept anything from me.