Tru,

Could you help me explore my thoughts on P/A behavior more here? I'm having a strong reaction right now.

Within P/A behaviors, there is fear, a lot of guilt (necessary for the addictive cycle...like propellant), relief, a high and a crash...from each action. I don't see it being addressed and I'm reacting to the imbalance, I think.

I do believe that professional counseling is essential. I've been blessed that my DH has chosen to do that now for a full two years and still going. He didn't enter into it to stop my pain...he began it to stop his own.

He is still dealing with the first question MC posed to him about his SA...where does the anxiety come from...after two years...which tells me that this anxiety is greater than I can imagine.

I don't have any expectations that he is cured of this...that he won't act passive/aggressively again...I just don't fear it. When he does, I believe, he will acknowledge it because that's what he's been doing over the four episodes this year that I can recall.

I say this because calling him on it, and myself, was like the first step. Taking it to the counselor, having a joint MC session, was like a boundary enforcement...and our MC pointed out my overlap, taking the pain deeper and wider than it was, also...was really important in my DH choosing not to act out his anxiety.

So are there progressions, up our spiral staircase...where we begin with knowing ourselves these are acts from intent...calling on it...finding a neutral third-party (so that DH could be direct and not through me, which is what triggered him to reacting in his addictions), and then calling himself on these behaviors, apologizing and doing amends...not for my feelings, but his own...is this the path to healing?

If I didn't work on my own boundaries, predetermine and make them progressive, I don't believe we would be where we are today...my own work was equal to his own...and by me keeping it separate...managing my expectations (sneaky devils in me, but benign)...is there a symetry here which would be helpful, and if so, how can we impart that?

I had to manage my own expectations as conscientiously as DH had to manage his behaviors...I felt a lot of pain from his actions...and half of it was mine, taken deeper, and until I acknowledged it, it persisted...opened the gate to my habit of creating resentment, like a salve for disappointment, righteousness and making myself a victim of what wasn't mine at all.

And my expectations came from fear. Same place.

Tru--is this the pattern...or am I misnomering expectations?

I hated having the victim thing pushed back and forth, tugged and yanked, between us. I don't miss that at all. I know I'm still suspectible to it over the last round with DH, and I know it comes from my own FOO stuff, not DH. I know it permeates more than my marriage...goes into my work, my parenting...my being. I don't miss being victim or monster...I love being, instead.

And I think I am triggering to my acknowledged suspectibility...to fall back into that pattern, that push/shove stuff...when I read posts where on P/A...so I know it's a signal to me...and need your help.

Is this how you do it...or part of your way...and what you are learning now?

Appreciate your help at every turn, you know.

LA

LA:

I'm going to take a stab at an answer, but if I don't address what you are looking for, please let me know and I'll try again.

Our history is very similar to what you outlined.

The first step was for me to realize after 20 years of marriage that what he was doing was done deliberately. We were already in MC when I began to believe that might be true, and so I had the outlet to take it to.

That was indeed the second step, putting it out there for a neutral party to consider. And the MC agreed that his actions often seemed to the passive-aggressive. Since our MC is an Imago counselor, she began looking immediately for what my part/payoff was in the dance. And it didn't take us long to find it.

You say you and your H traded back and forth the victim role. My H and I say we traded back and forth the martyr's role -- staying in the relationship for the other person's good. That's embarrassing for me to admit, but it is the truth.

When we had both agreed that there was a passive-aggressive dynamic at work in our relationship, we agreed to work on. And H, to his great credit, owned his part in it quickly. That boomerang relationship article that Mulan has in her tagline was really an eye-opener for both of us.

Once we agreed that the dynamic existed, the first steps were mine. I had to get my anger under control, and then to began the process of calling him on P/A behavior when I saw it. At the same time, at the MC's urging, I began to encourage him to share his real feelings -- be they anger, fear, resentment, disappointment whatever. This was a key , I think, to the change. Convincing him that he had not only had the right to be angry/sad and to express it openly, but that I actually wanted him to. And that it would strengthen our marriage when he did that. Even when the feelings were negative.

My H does still react in P/A ways on occasion, but they are rare now. I have not reached the place where it does not strike fear into my heart. It still does, every time. Now it is pure fear, rather than fear masked by anger as it used to be. But it is still a very fear-producing thing for me. It usually takes us a couple days for us to be able to work out and own our own parts of the dispute. But at least we can do that now, even if we can't do it in the heat of the moment.

And what sends him into that mode? What sparks that level of anxiety that pushes him back into that old behavior? For my husband I think it is a feeling of powerlessness that borders on the lethal. Like he is facing a possible death of self.

Perhaps that sounds melodramatic, but knowing what his childhood was like, I think it is true. His father had absolutely no interest in allowing him to develop as a person in his own right. My FIL had very rigid ideas of what his son should be, and when my H deviated from those, he was emotionally and physically abused. As an example, his father used to pin his head to the sink and brush his teeth with Ajax if H failed to meet his father's hygiene standards. Can you imagine? And that was typical of him. Both my H and his mother fought his father with passive-aggressive means. It was about the only thing that worked.

I think when my needs/desires conflict very strongly with my husband's, he is triggered back to his childhood and he feels under attack once again. And it prompts him to fight the same way he did then.

Now, my childhood was one of neglect, punctuated with periodic abuse when I had the effrontery to ask for anything. When my husband punished me for asking him for something as an adult, it brought me right back to my childhood. And I over-reacted often, which ramped up the cycle of dysfunction between us.

So, for both of us, part of our hurts were inflicted by the other spouse, and part came from the reliving of old hurts from childhood. And we both had childhood patterns to change because they sure weren't working for us in adulthood.

I have spent a lot of time changing my reactions so that he could feel safe sharing his feelings. The theory being that if he can say he is angry, he won't have to act it out in passive-aggressive ways. And, also, because I don't want to be the angry woman that he knew for so many years.

He has been working in IC on learning to identify and share his feelings, which is still very difficult for him because he sees anger as evil (his dad). Through MC and IC, he has learned the importance of meeting my needs for affection and attention that he studiously avoided meeting before.

Our next area to work on is one you mentioned above -- trying hard not to look at the other's conflicting needs/actions as good/bad. Both H and I have been pretty black/white thinkers, and we are trying to eliminate some of the judgmentalism from our interactions.

I have no idea whether I have even come close to answering your question. When we talk on the board about P/A spouses, it seems like we are usually talking with folks who are in the beginning stages of dealing with it. The realization stage and the calling them on it stages, if you will.

Is what you are reacting to in the posts the fact that we aren't going on to talk about the rest of the process? The need for long-term change on both sides? Or is it something else?

Let me close by saying two more things. First, I am in the midst of an internal debate on the whole question of expectations over the long term. I'm coming to the belief that it is not having expectations that is the problem, but having unexpressed expectations. Or unagreed on expectations. So, on the question of expectations, I am unclear.

Second, I do not exactly know what progressive boundary enforcement looks like. Can you explain it to me?

Tru

Tru,

Thank you for responding. What really resonated was that my DH, too, feels that anger is evil...it is the end of love and all that is good. To be angry is to be bad.

Guess I felt a little of that, too, reading P/A threads. And in posting to some people over the last two years.

My anger is definitely from fear...bashing someone's spouse for a P/A act...DJing them as having a great time, conscience free, seems to me to make someone a monster...perpetuating the saint/monster cycle...like the twin martyrs from either perception. I know that when my DH did acted P/A, he felt instant guilt, self-punished and turn it into resentment for me...to justify.

As I heard you describe your FIL's way of dealing with his son (appalling), equally I feel my DH's choices had nothing to do with me...only the threat he perceived me to be...and that he didn't experience this "do whatever I want" without internal consequences...massive guilt...and the whole P/A bit is about running from our own emotions...feeling threatened or controlled...which to DH was like death, too...chomp back, feel guilt, which feels awful, so distract into better feelings, and then react P/A again when those better feelings are threatened, which spirals to guilt.

It's a horrible life. Where is the mercy, the understanding that these are humans, too? Even as we have our own spirals...the payoff you described...where our H's actions are OUR distraction...from ourselves?

Once we know humans are responsible for their actions...that there is intent...and reason behind that intent...why keep expecting them NOT to do what they do? Where is the benefit in allowing us to DJ them and then slap them for DJing us?

When they hide something from us...can we not focus on our expectation of them not to hide as much as on calling them on it?

Which is where we have control...in ourselves...not in stopping them.

I think HL (now FNM) was getting at something important which I misconstrued--about the Golden Rule...don't do it to me if you don't want it done to you...and I believe you've read enough of my posts to know, Tru, how much I lived from that distorted interpretation...but the first step in not accepting P/A behaviors is knowing that they are, stating what they are, what if..."I know you knew I would feel pain because you chose to do that. I know you did it consciously and with intent. I know because you would have felt this same pain had I done it." Could that be the step I missed? I couldn't bring myself to see it because of my earlier distortion?

Seems like my advice with P/A behaviors appears to be take on blame...when that is the P/A partner's part of the dance...until they know there is no blame. Do you think we equate blame with pain? That by no longer choosing to believe it wasn't intentional, that we secretly believe there will be no pain from our partner's choices?

Power has nothing to do with blame, shame or protection in my belief system. Power is not doubling my pain, my part of the dance...through expectations, requirements, judgments. I have my hands full holding all my emotions, identifying them and tracing them back to my beliefs.

If P/A behaviors thrive, like mushrooms in dank places, with victimhood, why would we aid either partner by telling them they are a victim?

LA

LA,

One of the great conundrum's of being the target of a PA act, as you know, is that they are designed not to look like deliberately hurtful actions. They are designed to be deniable, and P/A people do deny them. That is the reason it took most of us so long to realize that they were indeed deliberate acts intended to harm.

To acknowledge that the acts are deliberately designed to hurt is not to make someone the victim, it is simply to recognize the truth.

A P/A act has a target, a victim. That is a fact.

And, it is also a fact that the hurt spouse often turns around and uses anger to victimize the P/A spouse. And so the victim mantle does pass back and forth. But does that make either partner's hurts less real? Would denying or ignoring the damage somehow make it not exist?

I do believe that people who use passive/aggressive tactics generally have the upper hand in relationships. I think it is Scott Wexler in his book who says that PA people repay hurts to them ten-fold, and that was certainly true for my husband, by his own admission.

Unlike your H, mine says he felt very little to no guilt about his P/A actions. At least consciously. He says he felt totally entitled to use whatever means he chose to prevent people -- including me --from thwarting his desires.

That is because he felt his needs/wants/desires were far more important than anyone else's, especially mine.

I think your H was unusual in his instant guilt for hurting you. My husband -- and most of the other PA spouses we are reading about -- don't seem to feel any guilt and don't have any problem with their actions. My H, for instance, says he felt no conscious guilt about lying or manipulating or gaslighting or anything else that he did. Even during the very LTA, he says he felt guilt the first time he had sex with her. And that was it. For all the years after that, it produced no guilt at all.

His addictions may have been an response to unconscious shame and guilt, but my husband was not walking around feeling bad about his behavior. On the contrary, he felt very entitled to do what he was doing. And he was happy to be doing it.

He chose his life of drugs and drinking and gambling and womanizing because it was the life he wanted. He made lots of money and got lots of admiration and attention from his colleagues. And that was enough for him. His choice and his responsibility. He knew his actions would hurt me, he knew it would eventually hurt himself, but he didn't care. It is hard for me to have compassion for the man who made those choices because he valued the life of instant gratification more than the life of honor and love and commitment we had promised each other. He doesn't feel that way now, but he did then.

I do have compassion for the little boy who was so badly hurt, and for the man who felt guilt and shame once he eventually "got it". But the hurtful, selfish, conscience-less, empathy-less man in between, no. I really don't.

And it is also hard for me to blame my expectations for his passive-aggressive acts. I don't see reasonable expectations as inherently damaging or manipulative. On the contrary, I see them as necessary for life in a partnership or a society.

Every promise, vow or commitment we make is really nothing but us telling someone else what they can expect from us, isn't it? Isn't a marriage vow just giving our spouse the right to expect us to love, honor and cherish them?

I realize that it is our expectations that P/A people come to react against. But is that because there is something wrong with having expectations, or is it because there is something in a P/A person that makes them too frightened to deal openly and honestly with their own reactions to expectations?

Tru

I'm editing this to add that the above information about my husband is what he reported to me himself once he had acknowledged that he was indeed heavily passive-aggressive and had begun to explore the issue in counseling. Most of it was a total shock to me. I would have never believed he held the attitudes that he did or that he believed the things about himself and me and the world that he did. It was the polar opposite of the person he portrayed himself to be.

Tru and LA, may I join your most excellent discussion for a moment?


LA, it seems to me that you are very reluctant to say that the P/A actions are deliberate because you don't want to label the person doing them as evil or as a monster - because who else but an inherently evil person would be capable of *deliberately* doing such cruel and hurtful things and then turning right around and happily walking away to enjoy themselves while leaving a loved one collapsed in a heap of pain?

Well - my H has certainly done this to me on many occasions, and I can only believe that it's not from true evil (which really has no conscience and really does not care) but from growing up with this behaviour being done to him and honestly thinking it is "normal" and "reasonable" to behave this way.

There was not much in the way of overt abuse at H's house when he was young, as far as I know, but there was a great deal of neglect and of course that is a form of abuse in itself. His mother was tremendously P/A and controlled all seven kids and her own husband that way. It's real easy to see where H learned to use P/A behaviour, both to protect himself from her and so he could get away from her to do what he wanted.

This worked perfectly for him and didn't hurt anyone (in the perception of a ten-year-old), so why would he think it was wrong?

Nobody was there to teach him any different.

This is one reason why I have been very very watchful of DS18 and make sure to teach him that honesty is always the best policy and will most certainly save him much hassle in the long run. He and a few of his buddies went to a strip bar as a going-way party for a friend going into the army. H knew he was going and told me, but DS did not know I knew. The next day, I casually asked DS18 where he had gone the night before (as I normally do). You could see the flicker across his face for a half-second and then he looked me in the eye and told me the truth.

He also said his girlfriend knew and did not object (which was quite believable, too). I told him that I was not thrilled that he had gone to a strip bar, but I was glad he was man enough to be honest about it and I hoped he would always be honest about such things with his girlfriends and future wife.

I don't think he'll grow up to be P/A. I have not seen signs of it in him, at least not in relationships - nothing beyond dragging his feet when asked to clean his room!

I honestly think that people who manage their personal relationships through P/A behaviour really do think that this is a normal and reasonable way to manage them. I believe they really do think that everybody does this and they can't understand what the big deal is. Pointing out to them that YOU don't behave this way is worse than useless. They're not going to believe you.

H would look for any excuse to tell me, "You're as bad as me!" and I think that was why - to prove that everybody uses P/A stuff to get what they want out of relationships so there's nothing wrong with it and what was my problem??? He constantly and angrily insisted that I was judgemental, on my high horse and trying to say I was perfect whenever I said I did not use such tactics.

He was delighted when I finally started withdrawing and going off and doing things without telling him, the way I had begged HIM for so long to stop doing. You never saw a bigger and more self-satisfied smirk on anyone's face than when told me, "You just broke your own rule!"

It's only when you care enough about them and about your relationship to hold up the mirror and show them what their actions really do look like that they begin to get a glimmer that no, this is NOT normal and no, not everybody does this.

You are not labeling them as evil when you do this. You are not indulging in DJs. (Mulan's corollary: It ain't a DJ if it's the truth!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

By calling P/A behaviour when you see it, you are simply using Radical Honesty in one of its purest forms. And IMHO there's no greater way to respect someone than to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth no matter how tough that is.

So: Evil? No. I would like to think that all of us here are perceptive enough to know true evil when we see it and would not ever want to be married to it.

P.S. As an addition to my "sledgehammered again" thread from yesterday, H has profusely apologized and is anxious to talk about more ways to prevent these problems in the future. And I am still willing to try to work with him. So y'all hang in there.

Thanks for letting me join in.
Mulan

LA,

Mind if I join in?
Is you question about whether labelling P/A behaviours as evil when they cause such pain, actually only encourages self-pity, victimhood, martyrdom and a blaming attitude in the injured S? ie takes attention away from the question of why the injured S is prepared to live with it and why they have lived with it all this time?...the issues that they can do something about?

I am wondering something along the same lines....
To my mind, P/A behaviour hurts loved ones a great deal. People who act in P/A ways are often completely unable to emphathise with anyone, at least at that time. I know my H didn't. He also didn't feel guilt at that time. IMO its important that the facts are seen as they are. Simply, no excuses, no reasons.

I remember a time when my M was at rock bottom and I thought I saw things clearly for the very first time. I was totally detached in that moment.
I could see so many actions of my Hs that had caused me hurt. I could see that he hadn't cared or even thought about my hurt at all. I could even see why I was attracted to him - because I believed deep down that I was weak and helpless and needed a strong-willed partner to survive. I could see that for a long time I had denied that this part of H existed. I had refused to see it, even when he wanted to show me parts of it. H had always had almost a kind of contempt for people who openly express anger. All of his expressions of anger were of the P/A kind. The main variation on the common theme was that he didn't lie or 'forget' things. He just manouvered things his way, completely oblivious to others' pain, and minimising it even when it was pointed out to him, or in other situations, as the helpless victim, requested things to compensate...attention, behavioural changes, 'sacrifice' since he had 'sacrificed'...

When I hit my rock bottom, I saw this and had compassion. For me, for him. The compassion for me took the form of focusing on my own feelings. Making some decisions and some boundaries. The compassion for him took the form of asking him about his feelings directly, especially his anger. Listening and detaching.

The interesting thing was that for a long time I was angry, blaming him and pitying myself. The compassion felt completely different to self-pity. It felt strong and freeing.

*edited for clarity

Mulan:

Your explanation is far more accurate than mine. I said that my husband felt entitled to use PA tactics because his desires were more important than anyone else's. More accurately, as you pointed out, he believed that everyone did the same kinds of things that he did, so it couldn't be wrong. It was the kind of behavior that he saw as a child, and on one level, it certainly worked.

I'm glad your H saw the hurt in his action and owned his part. That's really the first step. No one gets it right completely from the beginning, not when the behavior is this deep.

It reminds me of the 12-step story about how we learn to change. It's the one about the guy who walks down the same street and falls into the same hole every day. For years. And every day he is suprised at the fall. Then one day, he walks down the street and sees the hole, but is so used to walking the same way that he falls in anyhow. Now he is no longer surprised at the fall. Despite that, however, it still takes a while before the day comes when he is walking down the street, sees the hole and decides to step around it. And it takes even longer before he realizes that he can learn to take a different, hole-free street.

I think your husband is seeing the hole now, and soon he'll be walking around it on a regular basis. Just as you learned to. And one day, you'll walk together down a different street entirely.

I hope you didn't feel I was bashing your husband. I thought I was careful to focus on the act, rather than the person. What I wanted to do was validate your conclusion that it was indeed a PA act, point out that you were doing your part and give my opinion that no matter how good you were, he had to play his part before this consistent PA behavior would end. I also felt it important to point out the outside influences encouraging his PA behavior -- ie the admiration/attention from colleagues.

I probably shouldnt have said I'd like to kick his [censored], but it was true. I remember the hurt of similar incidents so very well that it prompted some old behavior on my part. Sorry. Funny how those holes can sneak up on you.

Tru

Very good analogy. I'll remember that one.


Not for a second. I can't tell you how helpful all of this has been to me and, I hope, to many others, too, many of whom are probably just lurking and have not posted yet. But that's okay - they'll join in when they're ready!


Heh. Nothing wrong with a little RH!
Thanks again -
Mulan

TruBluz, thats a perfect way of putting it.

H and I had so many conversations, that I now see, were actually power struggles about whose was the 'correct' view of the world. H would tell me, half jokingly, his thoughts about getting what he wants even if it overrid others, and that 'everyone' was this way. I would frown, judge him as a bad person and be in a sulk, or else deny that thats what he meant to say because he was "a good person", and finally, refuse to listen to him at all.

It helped me a lot to see that I also have some P/A behaviours... different to Hs, but P/A just the same. Also coming from a need to be the victim. The righteous, injured one.

Now, our talks have changed. We can both say whatever we want, including our darkest thoughts. H sometimes says... "Everyone thinks like this".... I answer ..."Do they?"....he laughs. Its no threat to my view of the world. He doesn't actually want to act on the thought, anyway... its just a passing thought. Once its accepted and not judged, he can also see the thought in context.

There are many things he did in the past that he sees differently now. Just as there are things I did that I see completely differently.

Tru,

"And, it is also a fact that the hurt spouse often turns around and uses anger to victimize the P/A spouse. And so the victim mantle does pass back and forth. But does that make either partner's hurts less real? Would denying or ignoring the damage somehow make it not exist?"

I wasn't questioning the pain or the fear and pain behind the pain. I was addressing what you so concisely identified...the passing back and forth of the mantle.

I agree wholeheartedly that P/A behaviors are intentional, there is a target, a victim, that they hurt like heck and leave us breathless. I don't believe in denying or ignoring our own stuff at all...stating our stuff is as important as calling them on the behavior.

Absolutely.

"I do believe that people who use passive/aggressive tactics generally have the upper hand in relationships. I think it is Scott Wexler in his book who says that PA people repay hurts to them ten-fold, and that was certainly true for my husband, by his own admission."

This is where my experience differs. I do not believe either have the upperhand in any relationship...I believe they have a mess. We had one. And I don't believe in measuring the hurts...my own hangup with the emotional theory of relativity...I cannot know the depth of your pain in my body...I know mine. I cannot know the breadth or height of my DH's fear, anger or frustration in my body. I can respect it, anyway.

Measuring to me is another way to blame when we are attempting to identify...to say who hurts more when is another way to be definitive about what we cannot know as humans. God made us incapable of making another feel our emotions...I think he's brilliant. He gave us the choice and power to state, share and know our own...and my hands are overflowing as it is.

I do believe it is escalation to which Scott Wexler is referring...like I said when two boys fight...each hitting harder and harder to get the other to stop hurting them. Could that be the ten-fold without measurement he indicates? That they can use a nuke in response to a flyswatter, given their perception?

"Unlike your H, mine says he felt very little to no guilt about his P/A actions. At least consciously. He says he felt totally entitled to use whatever means he chose to prevent people -- including me --from thwarting his desires."

I don't think I conveyed what my DH shared with me well enough. He stated he lived in constant guilt...in fact, he often felt controlled through my guilting him...which was him perceiving my statements of "I'm hurt" to actually be...a manipulation, and from that guilt, he chose to act out P/A, just as I acted out rage and pain. My DH hasn't said about his desires...to keep others from thwarting his autonomy, taking him over, imprisoning him in their expectations. I had a bit of that in myself, as well.

The cycle I experienced related well to the honeymoon reasoning...that invisible sledgehammer, my gasp, his feeling of being freed from the pressure, him feeling more desirous (stopped the pursuit/expectation pressure so he felt free to reconnect now that the danger had passed) and off we went again...round and round, grinding each other down.

"That is because he felt his needs/wants/desires were far more important than anyone else's, especially mine."

Given what I just shared about DH's perceptions, he did feel superior to most humans, including me. At times, he didn't...back and forth...he remained sure of his superiority as I did of my own inferiority. Where on the P/A thread Silverpool said that he feared equality the most. I know I couldn't comprehend equality. Until I did.

The very superiority he felt was part of the pressure he perceived as coming from me...same with his constant self-judgment and punishment...he heard them coming in from the outside, long after the outside stopped saying them. He's heard them all his life from his mother's voice, locked in his head...and he does see women from that filter...and it feels like it's being done to him, not him doing it to himself. He's now identifying the internal voice...slowly, but surely.

"I think your H was unusual in his instant guilt for hurting you. My husband -- and most of the other PA spouses we are reading about -- don't seem to feel any guilt and don't have any problem with their actions. My H, for instance, says he felt no conscious guilt about lying or manipulating or gaslighting or anything else that he did. Even during the very LTA, he says he felt guilt the first time he had sex with her. And that was it. For all the years after that, it produced no guilt at all.

His addictions may have been an response to unconscious shame and guilt, but my husband was not walking around feeling bad about his behavior. On the contrary, he felt very entitled to do what he was doing. And he was happy to be doing it."

I talked to him about my posts to you, Tru. He clarified some stuff...he did not see his forgetting/broken promises as lies at the time...his justification from resentment (resenting the pressure and control he perceived) covered that up very well...nor did he consider himself manipulative at all...only manipulated by me. He didn't have instant guilt apparently...because of the entitlement to punish...what he did have is guilt after the fact...and no, he wouldn't consider acting on it...his only thought during the honeymoon days after a hammering blow was to rebalance with a little lightness, to keep his mits in the game. His overall feeling of shame, though, inside, was the very force behind his belief of being controlled...which cycled through.

I learned how to feel guilt and not act on it. To feel shame and not act on it...using the tools I learned as a child to punish myself, and if that didn't stop me, then punish more, and then punish everyone. Glad I stopped that in myself.

For the most part. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I do have compassion for the little boy who was so badly hurt, and for the man who felt guilt and shame once he eventually "got it". But the hurtful, selfish, conscience-less, empathy-less man in between, no. I really don't."

I believe the little boy is still inside the man...and that boy is the one who chooses to act out P/A. Who fears most and craves most to not fear. I believe that my DH is not hurtful, selfish, conscience-less, without empathy...I believe he is capable of acting that way.

"And it is also hard for me to blame my expectations for his passive-aggressive acts."

I don't understand if you're intimating I put blame on expectations when I wrote about them...or that they were the causation of P/A choices. I didn't. Absolutely not. I was exploring the partner's part...or what can double our pain, how DJs can damage us further...not cause or control or cure.

"I don't see reasonable expectations as inherently damaging or manipulative. On the contrary, I see them as necessary for life in a partnership or a society."

I do boundaries, not expectations now. Takes all the manipulation OUT of it. Reasonable expectations--the sun will rise, the seasons will change, the faucet will turn on when I lift the handle...until it doesn't. My husband will come home after work...until he doesn't. There's a difference. People and expectations are a bad mix, in my book. Boundaries are great, necessary and healthy.

I am citing the extention of unreasonable expectations, back before we knew our H's behaviors were P/A..."Why are you doing this?" as if we expected them not to, time and time again...adding to our own crazymaking by expecting them to stop because we hurt, felt annihilated...over and over again. There was a false payoff in that and after we know, to expect them not to act P/A to me is adding to our pain, fresh betrayal...instead of acknowledging, enforcing our boundaries and calling them on it. Reasonable and unreasonable...unreasonable gives license to bite back, DJ and damage ourselves further, I believe.

I just wanted to know if you experienced that side of it. Our side.

Where we slip into our own entitlement, from resentment and permit ourselves to not respect, stick in reality (which hurts like heck at the moment). Not because we can stop them...because we can't. I wasn't negating pain...I was questioning permissions which were self-damaging.

Because they smack of the cycle we were in, our part of the dance...and continuing that after we woke up.

"Every promise, vow or commitment we make is really nothing but us telling someone else what they can expect from us, isn't it? Isn't a marriage vow just giving our spouse the right to expect us to love, honor and cherish them?"

What if it is stating our boundaries around ourselves? Our choice to believe they have these same boundaries is still our choice.

We've seen where we cannot be protected by vows...I thought we'd learned we can live happily by boundaries.

"I realize that it is our expectations that P/A people come to react against. But is that because there is something wrong with having expectations, or is it because there is something in a P/A person that makes them too frightened to deal openly and honestly with their own reactions to expectations?"

Glancing through my memories, I heard "I expected you to know better" "Do better" "I expected more of you than this!" "I expect you to behave like the young lady I want you to be." Lots of defining through expectations...same place my DH, your DH and others have been through...where we were choked with expectations and then spewed them back, like I did "I expected you not to disown me. I expected you to accept who I am."

When I freed myself from expecting, requiring of my DH, I freed us both. It's temporary...I believe I will grow to where you are knowing firmly what is reasonable and unreasonable...but in my experience, what I created in my expectations created a lot of pain in me and entitlement, and resentment, held no respect for humans being separate, autonmous, equal beings...by which, I wasn't either...from my wishful child and my great fear.

"I'm editing this to add that the above information about my husband is what he reported to me himself once he had acknowledged that he was indeed heavily passive-aggressive and had begun to explore the issue in counseling. Most of it was a total shock to me. I would have never believed he held the attitudes that he did or that he believed the things about himself and me and the world that he did. It was the polar opposite of the person he portrayed himself to be."

I have gotten that shock, too. I knew you weren't DJing, not by a long shot. I had an inkling, though, when my DH said, "I wish I didn't hate people." I remember that statement, said in a really wistful voice. I had been talking about how incredible people were to me. And yes, my DH didn't act like he hated anyone but himself. Come to find out, he doesn't. He's working on it, too.

LA

Mulan,

"LA, it seems to me that you are very reluctant to say that the P/A actions are deliberate because you don't want to label the person doing them as evil or as a monster - because who else but an inherently evil person would be capable of *deliberately* doing such cruel and hurtful things and then turning right around and happily walking away to enjoy themselves while leaving a loved one collapsed in a heap of pain?"

I'm sorry you're perceiving this from me. Without mess...P/A behaviors are entirely, with aforethought and malice intentional.

I was addressing that heap of pain part.

I appreciated you sharing information about your H and your perspective.

"H would look for any excuse to tell me, "You're as bad as me!" and I think that was why - to prove that everybody uses P/A stuff to get what they want out of relationships so there's nothing wrong with it and what was my problem???"

This is at the core of what I was attempting to see in this thread. That there are many pieces to the P/A dance and this enmeshed thinking, measuring, justifying is part of it. And I don't believe that they do the P/A behaviors to get what they want out of relationships...I firmly believe humans crave intimacy and fear it...in P/A choices, the fear wins out...and it is a "good as it gets"...like using a jackhammer to fine detail a marble sculptor...they don't even know they are using the wrong tool and they are not getting the results they really want.

I think that's where we differ.

"He constantly and angrily insisted that I was judgemental, on my high horse and trying to say I was perfect whenever I said I did not use such tactics."

I was highly judgmental, using my pain from a high horse to bash him with, trying hard to make it the reason he would stop...my pain. DH thought this at times when I stopped...not for very long, though, because I owned my judgment when he or I heard it. I amended. I couldn't stop his perception but I could darn well choose my beliefs. I did choose those tactics. You didn't.

Maybe another place we differ.

"He was delighted when I finally started withdrawing and going off and doing things without telling him, the way I had begged HIM for so long to stop doing. You never saw a bigger and more self-satisfied smirk on anyone's face than when told me, "You just broke your own rule!"

Again, the enmeshment. Good example.

Reminds me of my marriage where we each struggled in a deathgrip to be right instead of married. Both of us.

"It's only when you care enough about them and about your relationship to hold up the mirror and show them what their actions really do look like that they begin to get a glimmer that no, this is NOT normal and no, not everybody does this."

I can't conceive of this being healthy because it was the very thing that we did in the chokehold of enmeshment...holding mirrors, telling the other person who they were by what they did...and comparing to others, using judgment to fight judgment...it was so twisted for me.

How I take your mirror is you saying stating reality...you did this. This is truth. You did it intentionally. I can't use the mirror example because I broke it. Is that what you meant?

"You are not labeling them as evil when you do this. You are not indulging in DJs. (Mulan's corollary: It ain't a DJ if it's the truth!)"

I know you're not labeling the person, but the choice, the actions. That's not what I meant about DJs at all.

Actions ARE truth...their thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives are their own...invoilate...their truth. Same as yours is yours. DJs come in when you are stating what is THEIR truth, not your own.

"By calling P/A behaviour when you see it, you are simply using Radical Honesty in one of its purest forms. And IMHO there's no greater way to respect someone than to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth no matter how tough that is."

Absolutely. I agree.

LA

Smur,

"Is you question about whether labelling P/A behaviours as evil when they cause such pain, actually only encourages self-pity, victimhood, martyrdom and a blaming attitude in the injured S? ie takes attention away from the question of why the injured S is prepared to live with it and why they have lived with it all this time?...the issues that they can do something about?"

Gosh, yes. And not only those questions, but more self-questions...what were my expectations, did I feel secure, what did I choose to believe, what is the pattern, do I believe my pain is enough to stop his choices? Lots of those.

"I am wondering something along the same lines....
To my mind, P/A behaviour hurts loved ones a great deal. People who act in P/A ways are often completely unable to emphathise with anyone, at least at that time. I know my H didn't. He also didn't feel guilt at that time. IMO its important that the facts are seen as they are. Simply, no excuses, no reasons."

I believe they are unwilling to empathize, not unable. I say this because my DH exhibited a lack of empathy for as long as I have known him...and now, he's compassionate and empathetic. Not to an extraordinary degree; just to me, extraordinarily so. LOL. I only have a guess, but I believe that was because his mother exhibited intense empathy to others and told him to suck it up...be a man. I've experienced this with her...which told him that he wasn't worthy of empathy, so it's a trap of the hypocrite to act empathetically...and another part, my guess, is that he could not stomach feeling his own pain, let alone, others'. And yes, from the outside, this really looks exactly like what you said.

I'll know in time, I believe.

Really, no guilt/shame? We had this dance--mine was rejection and his was guilt...back and forth, back and forth...I felt rejection when he would not act on his guilt and stop hurting me...and he would feel guilt when I would blame him for all my pain...so he'd give me something to really cry about...injustice, not what he deserved...and in reality, I could feel rejection in a dog, a leaf, a stranger. Took me a long time to discern which was real and which was anticipated, hence, created.

"I remember a time when my M was at rock bottom and I thought I saw things clearly for the very first time. I was totally detached in that moment.
I could see so many actions of my Hs that had caused me hurt. I could see that he hadn't cared or even thought about my hurt at all."

Okay, let me look at this with you another way...does our pain trump all? Do we live to not inflict damage, intentional or otherwise? Is the moral standard that when you feel pain, I'm responsible? I ask because it sounds right to me...that if I hurt, then that matters, should be recognized and remedied...until I realized that pain came from the inside...it was mine. And I had to sort out the causes myself. Now, the sledge hammer is real...we feel that from the inside...and I have no control over it. I know I can survive it, and I can't make it stop. In fact, I know my final boundary enforcement is divorce, but I know even then, I am vulnerable to other invisible sledgehammers, so that is an enforcement...not as a protection from ever having that hit again...only from having DH hit with it.

But I digress. LOL.

I can't seem to find the words to say this...the belief that others not taking responsibility for causing pain is the injury here...I know in the end, that's what happens...owning our own choices gets us to this level where we know when we are intentionally inflicting damage on our spouse...absolutely. But until we unwrap all the tentacles, until we can see which are ours and which are theirs...is it not part of the whole passing of the mantle, to say all of our pain is on them? And is it not this very pain which they perceive as pressure, control...because of the standard?

I'm looped, I know. Help me, Smur. I know this is important...and there is no blame, that's illusion...do you grasp what I'm saying here?

"I could even see why I was attracted to him - because I believed deep down that I was weak and helpless and needed a strong-willed partner to survive."

Our payoff, huh? Intertwined. Hope you've really seen that as one warped perception now...'cuz you ROCK!

"I could see that for a long time I had denied that this part of H existed. I had refused to see it, even when he wanted to show me parts of it. H had always had almost a kind of contempt for people who openly express anger."

See, I was referring to Tru's great statement that her DH (and mine) saw anger as evil. And yes, I would add my DH's contempt at those (that would be MOI) who acted out their anger. Even stating it conjured this disdain from fear.

"All of his expressions of anger were of the P/A kind. The main variation on the common theme was that he didn't lie or 'forget' things. He just manouvered things his way, completely oblivious to others' pain, and minimising it even when it was pointed out to him, or in other situations, as the helpless victim, requested things to compensate...attention, behavioural changes, 'sacrifice' since he had 'sacrificed'..."

Whoa...switching ponies on this one...because that really describes me...with the sacrifice (it was my gourmet resentment food), and I minimized others' pain, defined their stuff to fit what I wanted them to be...blamed others for my own stuff...loneliness, taken advantage of, for granted, etc. That earning love crap.

"When I hit my rock bottom, I saw this and had compassion. For me, for him. The compassion for me took the form of focusing on my own feelings. Making some decisions and some boundaries. The compassion for him took the form of asking him about his feelings directly, especially his anger. Listening and detaching."

Yes, Smur...yes and yes...same for me.

"The interesting thing was that for a long time I was angry, blaming him and pitying myself. The compassion felt completely different to self-pity. It felt strong and freeing."

Yes, and more yesssss!!

Thank you, Smur. I appreciate your help very much. I know when I'm not clear, mostly when I'm trying to get a finger on what I'm reacting to...which is why I made this thread...and I let my goal slip from clarity and wrote from too much emotion...went into reactive mode. So that's enlightening in itself, because I wasn't coming close to what I was really wanting to ask...and you and Tru really helped me.

"*edited for clarity"

Okay, now edit mine. I need that clarity. Right now. Pronto. LOL. Uhm, please?

LA

I totally agree. That's a very good way to put it. I want to remember that one.
Mulan

LA,

"I do not believe either have the upperhand in any relationship...I believe they have a mess."

I definitely agree that we had a mess, LOL. But I do believe the whole point of using PA behavior is to gain control (ie the upper hand) in a relationship without actually appearing to do so. In our case, it worked. H says he was in complete control of our relationship up to the day that I found an article on PA, and the whole thing began to unravel. It hurts my pride to agree with that, but I think it is true. I had no idea what I was dealing with, and I was completely ineffective and frustrated and therefore ripe for control.

Once I understood what he was doing, he could no longer do it because his malevolent intent was clear. And he could not bear to be seen as the bad guy. That was supposed to be my role, as he so blithely put it.

"Measuring to me is another way to blame when we are attempting to identify...to say who hurts more when is another way to be definitive about what we cannot know as humans."

I wasn't talking about measuring pain, I was talking about measuring intent.

Perhaps it seems petty to do that, but I see it as important for me. It is important for me to understand not only that his actions were deliberate and meant to hurt, but that his anger was such that he often wanted to annihilate me (his word) when I did something he viewed as controlling.

I feel that I lived in denial and confusion for so long that I have to reprogram my senses, re-educate myself. I have to see things I studiously refused to see before, and I have to understand their weight and importance and the extent of their effect on me. So it is important to me to know that he was aiming not just to keep me from controlling him. On his bad days, he wanted to squash me flat.

And yet he portrayed himself as a man who never got angry, and who willingly sacrified his desires for mine. Because so much of his bad behavior was kept secret, I accepted his mask as the truth. And yet, it never felt quite right. So when he blamed me and my anger, I assumed he was right. I can't tell you how many self-help books I've read over the years, how many different kinds of meetings I've attended, how very hard I worked to change myself. And I did change. But nothing ever seemed to change with us.

I spent most of the last 30 years believing that he was the good guy and I was the bad guy. Now, as you point out, some of that I brought with me to the marriage from childhood. But I believe it was also part of what he saw in me that attracted him. And he exploited that, and deepened that self-perception deliberately and knowingly.

"The very superiority he felt was part of the pressure he perceived as coming from me...same with his constant self-judgment and punishment...he heard them coming in from the outside, long after the outside stopped saying them. He's heard them all his life from his mother's voice, locked in his head...and he does see women from that filter...and it feels like it's being done to him, not him doing it to himself. He's now identifying the internal voice...slowly, but surely."

It is his father's voice, in my H's case, but other than that, this paragraph could have been written about my husband as well. And he is in roughly the same place in his struggle.

"I believe that my DH is not hurtful, selfish, conscience-less, without empathy...I believe he is capable of acting that way."

I don't believe my husband is that way anymore either. But I believe he was for a very, very long time. Perhaps those qualities still existed in him, but if he had squashed them down so completely that they did not show themselves, what does it matter?

"I do boundaries, not expectations now. Takes all the manipulation OUT of it. Reasonable expectations--the sun will rise, the seasons will change, the faucet will turn on when I lift the handle...until it doesn't. My husband will come home after work...until he doesn't. There's a difference. People and expectations are a bad mix, in my book. Boundaries are great, necessary and healthy."

I really don't see how boundaries are any less manipulative than expectations, provided that expectations are stated and agreed to by both parties. Maybe I don't understand the concept of boundaries. If you have the inclination, this is something I'd like to explore.

Tru

Hi Smur:

I agree that we all have some passive/aggressive behaviors. I know that I do. I recognize them now, too, and try to stop myself.

I don't know about the term evil, but I do view P/A tactics as hurful and therefore wrong. For myself, I think it is important to recognize the actions every time I see them, not to demonize the person doing them, or to make myself a victim, but to validate my own observations. Because my observations were so off for so many years, being able to see truth is very important to me. As I regain some trust in myself, it probably will become less important to do that. At least I hope so.

I think it is seeing a P/A act for what it is that keeps us from jumping to the victim role. At least for me, a big part of my escalating the whole dance was not understanding exactly what was happening or why it was happening. I was constantly off-balance, unsafe, vulnerable. When I can see what is happening, I am able to stop myself from over-reacting. Like you and your husband, we can even laugh about it at times.

Tru

Hi LA,

Thank you. Your posts are such food for thought, and that is just what I want!

LA, this is exactly the same for us. At that time, he was unable to empathise. Now, he has empathy for me in abundance. Just as I do for him. He was always very empathetic towards certain people, and towards animals... he just had a 'blind spot'.


I think this may apply to us. H had an extraordinarily controlling Dad and a lonely childhood, from my POV. His parents are the most un-empathetic people I have ever met. They never show affection, weakness, feelings etc. They lived through a war, and I guess that was one affect.



Now this made me LOL... because we were exactly reversed... I am just picturing H writing exactly your post... I was the guilt one, H was the rejection one. Or more accurately, the 'let down' one. There were times I felt nothing I did was good enough. There were times he felt constantly disappointed...and so we carried on.



Yes! Absolutely. In pain and anger we always feel justified and entitled, at least initially. Its in the nature of the emotions, IMO. It takes some letting go to see whats important and what we need to do.

It doesn't matter where the spiral is broken or who breaks it. IMO its either a downward spiral (pain/blaim/inflict pain/blame/.....) or an upward spiral (pain/acknowledge/acknowledge/better feelings on both sides). So how to get from spiral A to spiral B... someone has to want to try. Sooner or later, you can see if S is going to jump in and do their part.
Its hard work to keep trying to force a downward spiral in the face of reasonableness.

Tru Bluz,

I completely agree about recognising P/A behaviours every time they are done, and for what they are.

Tru,

"I definitely agree that we had a mess, LOL. But I do believe the whole point of using PA behavior is to gain control (ie the upper hand) in a relationship without actually appearing to do so."

I agree that P/A behavior is to gain control...and I don't agree that there is control to truly gain. It's part of the illusion. It wasn't, isn't and can't be real. However, that perception, of an upperhand, is really detrimental to stopping this crazy dance.

"In our case, it worked. H says he was in complete control of our relationship up to the day that I found an article on PA, and the whole thing began to unravel."

He perceived he was in control...when all along, you were choosing to see his actions as unintentional, something other than they were. If he really can control you, that means you really can control him...therefore his fear is real...that's where I'm going with this...part of breaking the dance isn't just stopping our own behaviors, it is changing what we believe, too.

Do you believe you can be controlled by other people, against your will, through their actions?

Maybe this is my disconnect.

"It hurts my pride to agree with that, but I think it is true. I had no idea what I was dealing with, and I was completely ineffective and frustrated and therefore ripe for control."

I understand the ineffective and frustrated. Those are definite symptoms I experienced. I was focused on getting what I wanted out of DH...and he was focused on not being controlled by me.

"Once I understood what he was doing, he could no longer do it because his malevolent intent was clear. And he could not bear to be seen as the bad guy. That was supposed to be my role, as he so blithely put it."

I get this...because making others the bad guy hide his own actions from himself...and being called on it, on the reality of his actions, changed it. He could still do it, if he chose...he just couldn't justify it any longer, because you weren't buying into the deceit of it not being intentional.

Would that be what you're saying?

"I wasn't talking about measuring pain, I was talking about measuring intent." I was referring to your quote of Scott Wexler's, about handing back the pain ten-fold or something.

Thank you for your great description of getting the full reality of his choices. I had not thought of doing that...and I believe you're right that in order for me to continue learning about this, seeing the true extent of what he was doing, not just the why, is really important.

The steps we're talking about is identifying the behaviors...which means we get straight in our own minds what this is...call them on it, which includes stating our own feelings and thoughts...then...what?

That's where I want to go...a next step. See, that's why I started this thread...because there are two parts, and we only have control over our own. Would the next step be to see the true intent...the extent of it...to better grasp the reality of it?

Our parts..."I feel that I lived in denial and confusion for so long" and I believe I lived in denial about this behavior from my FOO, too...and lived a confused life. Because of my denial. And my judgment...I had a hidden belief that if I married someone who would intentionally harm me, I was crazy if I didn't divorce immediately. My denial fed me, sustained me...had a warped payoff. I didn't want to be that stupid or crazy.

And I'm not either. Not knowing who I was really played into being the partner who chose a person with strong P/A behaviors. Believing I earned love and punishment was another.

And I think Phase I of relationships plays into that...we show each other our best images...not our real selves...so when the P/A behavior gets pretty brutal, it is usually around when Phase II starts...which fed my hidden belief...he can't be doing this on purpose...this isn't who he really is...just as with my reacting out rage and pain wasn't who he thought he'd signed up for, either.

What worked in Phase I falls down in Phase II. What do you think?

"Now, as you point out, some of that I brought with me to the marriage from childhood. But I believe it was also part of what he saw in me that attracted him. And he exploited that, and deepened that self-perception deliberately and knowingly."

That was my experience, too. What I brought with me, what he brought with him...each attracted to the counterpart of it...that balance, under our own radar. I just had a thought...what if in the bible where it says that a woman and man cleave from their parents and unto each other...God really meant...to face and know our FOO stuff together? Like the Imago meant...so that these two separate selves can cleave what came before and be their whole selves, together...like undoing what our folks did was the goal...not completing one another (which goes for the better and worse in us)? What do you think?

I'm smiling because I didn't think of cleave in that way before right now...severing...oh, I like that!! ROFL

"I don't believe my husband is that way anymore either. But I believe he was for a very, very long time. Perhaps those qualities still existed in him, but if he had squashed them down so completely that they did not show themselves, what does it matter?"

I believe my DH acted that way for his whole life. I know he did. He knows he did. He knows they are choices of behavior, not his essence, not qualities within him...they are choices created from early on, from fear. What does it matter? The world to me. To know that about myself and him and every human. I have a lot of villagers in me...my choice to act on them or not. Still mine. Self-created for a purpose.

"I really don't see how boundaries are any less manipulative than expectations, provided that expectations are stated and agreed to by both parties. Maybe I don't understand the concept of boundaries. If you have the inclination, this is something I'd like to explore."

Boundaries are around us...expectations are around others. The expectations around ourselves are our standards. What we will not allow ourselves to do to others, and if we do them, we acknowledge and amend. Boundaries are the same; when others cross them, we have enforcements. Neither expectations nor boundaries will prevent others from crossing ahead of time...they are all about what we choose to do when they are crossed.

Expectations carry disappointment and approval. Boundaries don't. They carry reality. Calling P/A behaviors what they are, allowed, is a boundary enforcement. Expecting others to not do P/A behaviors, well, is an expectation. Expectations can give us false feelings of protection. Boundaries give us reality and our real power. They teach us not to fear being hurt because we have predetermined, progressive enforcements...they teach us, in part, how to heal, not prevent. Do expectations do any of that?

LA

Smur,

Would you consider asking him about the blind spot? Where he had empathy for certain people and animals who he saw as having no power or control over him?

"I think this may apply to us. H had an extraordinarily controlling Dad and a lonely childhood, from my POV. His parents are the most un-empathetic people I have ever met. They never show affection, weakness, feelings etc. They lived through a war, and I guess that was one affect."

There's something more to this I want to figure out...my DH and I, both, are affection junkies...we've discovered that it's a bottomline representation of acceptance through attention and acknowledgment. When we were in power struggles, locked in that P/A grind, touch represented demands, expectations and invasions. Same touch. LOL.

And we both were told we were weak when we were growing up. Of course, the church told us that, also.

And we were told how we felt a lot...and were told what we didn't feel, too.

What if part of this dance is the defining...telling others what they feel, think or really believe? I wonder if I still do this...so ingrained...feels like protection, like I'm calling someone to a reality meeting...when really, I'm defining someone? Same for affection...how I perceived it changed...and lack of it represented rejection. Because I defined the reasons for it, rather than minding my own.

And yes, I used it as a weapon, also. I was taught that, too, from my parents. The "getaway from me" and "you make me sick" stuff.

So if part of breaking this dance is eliminating the defining steps, because those model exactly what was done to us as children...isn't that important? Not as blame or judgment on self or others...just truly accepting, Hey, I do this...and I know why...and I really don't want to do that anymore?

And I will enforce my boundaries if someone else defines me, too? I can't do that if I am doing it myself...that's huge pain and conflict inside...I know. I've experienced that. Part of my denial and confusion.

Because he couldn't do it to me if I wasn't doing it to him. He couldn't be intentionally harming me...oh, wait...when I AO'd and DJ'd after being emotionally punched, you BET I was intentionally harming back...part of that spiral.

Thanks for reminding me about the upward spiral. Didn't get that there was such a thing until this last year. A V8 moment, to be sure, for me.

"Yes! Absolutely. In pain and anger we always feel justified and entitled, at least initially. Its in the nature of the emotions, IMO. It takes some letting go to see whats important and what we need to do."

What I did was to find my justifications and entitlement...use them as signals to identify my resentments...see them as what I didn't want, not my DH. That helped me tremendously, and it was because of MB pointing out to me that those are not reality at all...false power centers in our power struggle...that I got that. Signals...healthy to know, deadly to act on.

And I found out I blamed my DH for MAKING me rage...which continued the entitlement and justifications. Had to own up to that, too! LOL. Which was another freeing choice I made...to own what was mine, all of it, not just what I considered my good stuff. So I didn't do a lot of letting go...it smacked too much of letting his P/A behaviors go.

The more I owned, the less I had to let go. I realize that sounds very convoluted...but I had been kicking myself for years for what wasn't mine...it was the greatest relief to finally know what was mine and that I had the power to choose not to act from my emotions.

No kicking involved.

Knowing as a human I can amend made a world of difference, too.

So add to these ingredients, help me with your clarity to sort them and list them...so we can mix well and have a party, 'k?

Upward spirals, on da house!

LA

Smur,

That last post was so brilliant I've already stolen part of it. Thank you.

LA,

My brain has quit working for the day. I'll answer tomorrow. This is a great discussion. Thank you for starting it.

Tru

Hey LA:

"Do you believe you can be controlled by other people, against your will, through their actions?"

Yes, in some cases. And in all those cases, I think it is abusive to do that.

For instance, when someone uses lies to alter your perception of reality to such a degree that your choices are based on facts that don't actually exist. We see this all the time here when a WS urges a BS to make life-altering decisions unaware of the affair.

That situation, I believe, is an example of a person (the WS) using lies of omission and plain old garden variety lies to control.

And being part of a passive-aggressive dynamic is similar. The person using P/A tactics is keeping the truth of his/her feelings hidden, and giving his partner a false reality to live in. And then, at least in my case, working to give their partner a false self-image by blaming them for the problems.

My husband tells me that even when he was demonizing me in his mind as a controlling ******, he knew that it wasn't fair and that the P/A action he took to punish me would mess with my head in a way I did not deserve. But he was so intent on protecting himself -- or more precisely, keeping himself comfortable -- that he was willing to sacrifice my self-image to keep me focused on me, instead of seeing what he was actually doing.

When you have someone so close to you working undercover to make you and others think badly of you, it really messes with you. I had the image of him in my head as a good guy from Phase one of the relationship, as you put it. So, when things started going bad and he blamed me, it seemed logical that he was right.

I know that I took too much of my self-image from him and others outside myself, but damn. I was living with someone who undercut me at every turn. At times I would come close to knowing it, but when he would deny, I always believed him.

So many of my ideas about who I am and what I can do were influenced negatively by him. That is why I feel like I have to figure out the extent of the untruths. I have to figure out what is real about me, and what he wanted me to believe because it was easier for him.

And I do have to figure out exactly why I was such an abuse magnet. Where does that rest in me and how can I stop the need to feed it? Why does this cycle of rejection and resentment fill such a need in me, and how am I ever going to stop that?

"Cleave" Yup. I like that analogy, too. Cutting out that old FOO stuff from each other, or helping each other to do that.

I've been thinking about the couples I know well. Looking in from the outside, I believe that I see some who did exactly that. Like they fulfilled that Imago destiny of recreating and solving their FOO isues seemingly without even trying. And then there are folks like H and I, who are having to struggle so hard to do the same.

On the idea of boundaries vs. expectations. . .

Don't all boundaries automatically include some expectations? Why do we feel justified in pointing out a PA behavior if there isn't an expectation that people ought not to do them? Or at least that they are hurtful.

Tru