We are in counseling. No correct that-I'm in counseling. My wife does not feel the need for it. She says I need to workout my issues first, then maybe she will join the sessions. Here is what she believes I need to work on. I need to trust her again. To give a little backround on this trust issue let me give a little history.

Four months ago she started a new job as a site facilities manager for a large biotech company. She had worked for commercial real state investor before that. Almost immediently she started going out about once or twice a week going out with her co-workers-all male including her boss. She would come home about 1130-1200 though one night she stayed out till 3 am. On the 3 am episode I verbalized my feelings and concerns. I put in the context of our problems with intimacy and how unresponsive she was being to me. I told her that it hurt deeply that she was able find companionship in men that she hardly knew, while unable or unwilling to share even a trace of intimacy with me. She claims that it is my lack trust in her that is at issue here. That after 25 years of marriage I should trust her judgement and motives. To be truthful I don't disagree with her on this. She is a very strong willed woman who can take care of herself. She has not been unfaithful because I have asked her directly. All my heart, my instinct from being married to her for 25 years tells me that she is being truthful when she says this. But yet I still hurt because though she has not consumated a relationship with another man, her emotional distance from me feels as if an affair occured. Now please for those out there that have actually experienced infidelity I mean no disrespect to the pain you may have gone through. I am only trying to paint a picture of the hurt I am experiencing and infidelity is the only comparison I can come up with. How do I trust my wife unconditionaly? Is there such a thing?

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I have never heard of unconditional trust except from adulterers. Adulterers who want everyone to forgive and forget asap.

Unconditional? Give me a break.

Speaking of which, I do the brakes on my truck myself. I am good at it and I know they are in good shape and I know they work correctly when I finish. But I do not have unconditional trust in them. I still drive carefully so I don't have to rely only on the brakes.

Dr Harley has a lot to say on trust. Read Surviving An Affair (SAA). He scoffs at it.

No Virginia, there is no unconditional trust. This side of heaven anyway.

Aphelion I just read SAA and from what Dr Harley wrote my instincts are correct. Most of the warning signs he listed are not present in our current situation. The only condition that may fit is that she works with and goes out with her coworkers about once or twice a week. She has also been very open to my inquiries. As I've said it's not an affair but the emotional distance that is the cause of my hurt. Maybe this post belongs in the emotional needs section afterall.

Then maybe read Not Just Friends, by Shirley Glass.

EAs are as bad as PAs to some people.

With prayers,

ed: The bottom line is if she is doing things with other people that hurt you, harm your M, she should stop. Anything else short of POJA is pure selfishness.

rockthrower, I don't see that you have a problem with "trust", but that your W has a problem acting like a married woman and is very disrespectful to you and your marriage. Her behavior is FOSTERING distrust and would cause any sane person to distrust her. Even if she is being good, she is showing you great disrespect and an appalling lack of empathy since you have told her how very troubled you are with this. That alone should cause her to STOP if she had any respect for you. Going to counseling so you can learn to accept the unacceptable is a little twisted, if you ask me.

This kind of disrespectful behavior is called a LOVEBUSTER around here and will ERODE a marriage by causing you to fall out of love with her. It is very destructive to marriages. And the counselor should know this. If your C does not know this, she is worthless and you are wasting your money.

Your W has no business catting around like a single woman with other men all night. That is behavior that can only harm marriages. I would ask your W to respect your feelings and knock that crap off.

In addition to the book Aphelion suggested above, I would get His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley. When you finish it, lend it your counselor. An article that you could really benefit from would be lovebusters at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html

How affairs begin: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html

Just ask her:

What kind of business can be conducted between the hours of 12:00 AM and 3:00 AM?

God bless.

RT,

Would you consider an affair with resentment, entitlement? Would you consider her LB as independent behavior?

How about changing your own perception...where she can far more easily be intimate with people she doesn't know (clean slate) than with you? Would that flip over your current mindset?

A wayward state of mind exists before an affair takes place. We can affairs in our minds, with fantasy. The parallel you drew was not unreasonable, I believe.

There's lots you can do about you...nothing you can do about your wife. Her choices are hers...you can begin respecting them and yourself.

For starters...you can perceive she is unresponsive to you...doesn't mean she is...your perception is valid. Find all your LBs and see what's beneath them...then revoke your permissions to do them...

LA

p.s. Dr. Harley does not believe in "unconditional trust." He said: "I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe."

He continues:
For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse.

So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?

Another type of clue is records of communication such as telephone records, letters and e-mail. Most affairs depend on repeated contacts and evidence of those contacts can usually be found. That's how M.S. discovered her husband's affair. When his lover was living in the same city, he was able to hide his affair, but after he moved, it became almost impossible for him to keep his communication a secret. He was addicted to daily contact, and M.S. saw evidence of it almost immediately after the move. But how many people move away from a lover? It's very rare, and if M.S.'s family had not moved, she may never have discovered the affair because she trusted her husband.

When a couple spend their leisure-time away from each other, it is not only a breeding ground for an affair, but it can also be another clue to an affair. That's especially true when a spouse doesn't want the other to be present at their favorite activity. I counseled a man who went fishing every summer for a week with his friends, wives not invited. But they did invite a secretary from work who cooked their meals (and had sex with them all) during the trip.

Anything that takes one spouse away from the other overnight is an invitation for an affair. But when an opposite-sex co-worker tends to join a spouse on business trips, red flags should be flying in all directions. Any evidence that this relationship is anything more than pure business is, from my perspective, a gigantic clue that an affair might be in progress. That's also the case if a spouse and opposite-sex co-worker spend a great deal of time working together.

We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable.

Look what happened to poor Kathy Lee Gifford. She stated publicly and wrote in one of her books that she trusted her husband completely, that he would never cheat on her. But she should not have trusted her husband. If she would have taken the steps she is now taking to help him avoid another affair, the first would never have taken place, and she would have avoided all its pain and embarrassment. I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe.

entire article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Lovebuster #5


Independent Behavior
Once you are married, almost everything you decide to do has either a positive or a negative impact on each other -- you are either depositing or withdrawing love units with every decision you make. So if your decisions are not made with each other's interests in mind, you will risk destroying the love you have for each other.

I define Independent Behavior as the conduct of one spouse that ignores the feelings and interest of the other spouse. It's usually scheduled and requires some thought to execute, so the simplest way to overcome this Love Buster is to take it off your schedule. If your Thursday night bowling, or visit to a friend of the opposite sex, or spending five hours chatting on the internet while your spouse sits alone watching TV, schedule something else Thursday night, visit someone else, and spend time doing something with your spouse. And whatever it is you decide to do that replaces independent behavior, be sure that both you and your spouse enthusiastically agree to it.

My ninth Basic Concept, the Policy of Joint Agreement, (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse), helps eliminate independent behavior -- any event or activity that is not mutually agreed to cannot take place. It forces you to take your spouse's interests and feelings into account when you forget that your spouse is an extremely important part of yourself, and should be considered in every decision you make.

Independent behavior is a problem in most marriages because we are all tempted to do whatever makes us happy, even when it makes our spouse unhappy (the Taker's rule). We don't feel the pain our spouse feels when we are inconsiderate -- all we feel is the pleasure gained from activities that are only in our best interest. That's why the Policy of Joint Agreement is so important in marriage. It forces us to behave as if we feel each other's pain -- it makes us behave as if we were empathetic.

A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior, which limits your your events or activities to those that benefit both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of your suffers when you behavior interdependently, making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind. When you get to my tenth Basic Concept, Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation, I'll show you how to replace Independent Behavior with Interdependent Behavior.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3406_independent.html

I appreciate all the responses. Loving, your repsonse is probably most pertinent to my current situation. Though all of you are saying about the same thing, just in your own way. Last night we talked for about three hours about the late night outings. We were very open with each other and I asked some very probing questions which she answered without hesitation or secrecy. But before I discuss the essence of our conversation, I will give some backround of what happened last Sunday that has relevance to this issue.

Last Sunday I was finally able to meet her boss (male). WE joined him and his friends to the Raider-Niner game. We tailgated before and after drinking and enjoying barbecue. It was the post game tailgate where things went a little sour for me. It was obvious by that time that her boss had drunk a little too much. That is when from my POV he started to flirt way too much with my wife. He would touch her on the bill of her cap and come close (personal space close) whenever he would speak with her. At the time I passed it off as a drunk male who was not in control. On the way home we rode back with him and his designated driver friend and his flirting continued. He was asking things like maybe we should all go out tonight and continue the celebration. Then he started using a waterbottle and started spraying my wife with. She was sitting directly behind him. It took all my will power not to reach over and choke the ****** out of him, but my better judgement prevailed. They dropped us off and we parted ways. But when we got home I lashed out. At her boss for being an inconsiderate jerk, and my wife for allowing me to be put in that sitaution. At that time my wife was unapologetic stating that it was not her fault that her boss acted like a jerk. We went to bed angry. It was not until that following Tuesday that she approached me while we were drinking our morning coffee and we broached the subject again. We had a very good coversation and she apologized for what I went through and that she understood why I was angry.

This brings us to last night. We very open with each other. I told her I think her boss is a jerk. She told me that she doesn't disagree though she says in a different setting he can be a nice guy. I even told that there is the possibility that his interest in her may be more than professional. Her first reaction to this was one of "no way that is not possible." But when I went over some of the clues ( things I picked up from her recounting of what has been happening this past few months) she finally had to admit of that possilibilty. At this point she looked me in eye and in the most hearfelt tone, said that even if that were true, that she loved me very much and that she would never jeopardize our marriage by reciprocating her bosses desires. It is her desire to fix our marriage too, but she asked me to be patient. That our issues were not created overnight and that they will not be solve likewise. She is contemplating changing dept or jobs. One because of how I feel but also because to be frank she says her boss does not know how to manage people. To which I said "no kidding." So this is where we are at. Loving, your post has lots of meaing for me too. And Melody thank you for all your sage advice. I can only keep moving forward throwing my rocks in that deep river.

How do you imagine he acts when you are NOT THERE? How do you think he was acting the night she stayed out with him drinking until 3am?

If I use the tailgate incident as my only reference point, then my imagination would go into overdrive. But we discussed that 3 am incident in detail Friday night. First she divulged that she there have been one or two or more co-workers with them everytime they have gone out. On this particular night there was another married co-worker with them. She says that time just got away from them and that the majority of the conversation revolved around work. I don't want to make my wife the villain here because she has started to open up to me. As I wrote in the previous post she has given a pretty extensive accounting to the who, what and wheres of the late night outings. She is starting to show signs of emphathy and understanding of the hurt I am feeling. Also the 3 am incident happened about two months ago and ever since then her going out with co-workers have been less frequent and not as long in duration.

This is where I have to be careful. She has said that there are no A going on with her boss or any other co-worker. Since none of the other warning signs are present I believe her. I don't want to feed the green monster of jealousy unless I have more concrete proof of an A actually occuring. We both work for big corporations so I understand the need to network and connect with co-workers outside the workplace. She likes her job very much and she is very good at it. So I have to take that into consideration as I work thru my issues. I have had a chance to meet a few of her other co-workers at a company picnic and it was a pleasant experience for me. Her boss on the other hand (he was not at the picnic) not so good. She says that because of our conversation, her antenna is up. She is asking me to give her the benefit of the doubt and that I trust her to do the right thing. I love her and I want to preserve our marriage. Because of that I need to step back and give her some room. I can't make the decisions or judgements for her. I have to believe that what she decides and how she wants to move forward with our relationship is for the good of both of us.

rt, I will say that I also work for a large corporation, and have since 1989, and what you have told me here is absolutely unheard of. Married people don't stay out all night getting drunk. Some of us might end up the hotel bar, on out of town trips, until 9-10 but that is about as bad as it gets. What you have described to me is not only foreign but completely inappropriate for married people, regardless of the corporate culture.

I should also point out that if your w is having an affair, she is not going to tell you the truth. If she is having inappropriate conversations, she is going to tell you that they were "talking business" until 3am. She is not going to tell you that she and her boss were really alone, she is going to tell you there were "coworkers there." It is silly and unrealistic to expect her to bust herself after she has done something wrong.

I am not saying that she HAS had an affair, I am just saying you should not take her word for it. People who are in affairs ALWAYS LIE. And they are good liars. So, if it is happening, don't expect to hear the truth from her.

What you do need to hear from her, though, is her assurance that she will STOP acting inappropriately by doing things that are destructive to her marriage. Trust is not an entitlement, and until she EARNS trust and stops acting in UNTRUSTWORTHY manners, she should not be trusted, my friend. You would be INSANE to trust her after her recent behavior.

I hear you Melody. You have been in this forum far longer than I, so I will not dismiss out of hand your observations and advice. But I know my wife. I believe her. Now we have plenty of other issues to work on but I truly believe an A is not one of them. We are new at this. We have never been very good at expressing our feelings to each other. I have initiated the opening up of our communication process but it has been a recent developement. I tell you it is hard work this communication thing and often times hurtful. But in the end it is beneficial and the right thing to do. You will be the first person that IM if my instincts are way off base on this. I do appreciate you concerns.

RT,

About you lashing out...are you working on LBs? Are you looking underneath your acting out on your anger rather than expressing it? It's equally potent.

Seems like what changed here from Sunday to Tuesday was your huge relief you were heard, considered, understood and there was empathy. If you believe this was you finally communicated the extent of your concern and hurt by demonstrating it...it wasn't. Please don't perceive your permission to lash out as necessary. Expressing what you think, feel, believe and perceive is what may be part of the issues you both are going to work through.

Lashing out actually negates reality...tells you that the only way to get through, get the results you want, is to go to an extreme. That lesson would have been reinforced over your lifetime, not just your marriage.

Communication exercises with listen and repeat, twice a week, would be a great way to learn that you are sharing, not accusing, in your marriage. MC and the book Boundaries in Marriage (Cloud and Townsend) helped me to get this...and work on myself. And boundaries was what you were detecting being crossed by her boss and by HER...you're not feeding a green-eyed monster...she really doesn't have or enforce boundaries. Your Tuesday talk began to outline them...which gave you a boost, a comfort and an acknowledgment.

You're not crazy. Nor is ML...because this is exactly how A's begin...with disregard to spouses, fueled by attention from others, and no boundaries.

I don't believe she's having an A...because she could recognize that to do so would destroy herself and the marriage...however, she is/was in a wayward state of mind, so carpe diem...continue this journey with high awareness and intent...to learn a lot about how relationships and their depths depend on radical honesty, and the other three rules of marriage.

Please keep posting, reading and staying aware. I think your life is about to change...

LA

RT,

Let's take this from a slightly different point of view. Let's say that ML is right that there is an A going on or at least forming and let's say that it is an emotional affair at this point. I should point out that many people don't think it is an affair unless there is sex, not true, but they can look you right in the eye and say "there is/was no affair" because they don't define emotional attachment to someone else as betraying their marriage.

But, humor me for a moment and let's say that there is an emotional affair, EA. What are you going to do about it? What plans do you have in mind? Are you going to throw her out, demand she leave the job? Good things to do IF YOU CAN PROVE THERE IS AN EA. But, let's say you cannot but you know in your gut there is.

Here is where you go to plan A. Here is where you reevaluate your approach to her and the marriage, and get rid of the bad things (the love busters) and accentuate the good things (your love for her and loving actions you do). You don't whine or beg, you make a plan and act on it. You show her that what she has at home is worth the effort to protect it.

Now let's say my conjectures are wrong, do you see any harm in doing plan A and making a plan to remove the love busters, and accentuating the good things? I don't. Read with a idea to formulate a plan to make your marriage better. No matter what is happening your marriage will become better. Trust is highly overrated, what really is required is action coupled with accountability.

Please think about this a moment and then see if the information here can help you formulate your plan to revamp your marriage.

God Bless,

JL

I don't know that there is an affair, but I do know that going out with men late at night is destructive and shows a profound lack of respect. That is not how a married woman acts. If there is not an affair, there surely is one on the horizon. And with her lack of respect for rt and her marriage, I don't see anything here that would lead me to believe she would not have an affair if the spirit moved her.

Nor do her "professions" of innocence mean anything. The most honest person will lie about about an affair because they dont' want to be discovered. We see here on this forum every day.

The important thing here is that she stop acting out in ways that are very disrespectful and destructive to the marriage.

I also think it is very important to recognize how WARPED it is to send rockthrower to a counselor for "his issues" because he OBJECTS to his wife catting around all night with flirtatious male co-workrs. GOOD GOD! RT should have his damn head EXAMINED if he didn't see something very wrong with that, not because he DOES!

Rock - Your antenna are rightly up and if the behavior makes you uncomfortable and suspicious then there is something there, like you've witnessed - "where there's smoke..."
If there's not an A there, then the foundation for one is being made. Don't back down or enable it.

V/r,
No way

ML as much as I appreciate your advice, there is a few things I need to make clear here. I joined this forum because of marital problems my wife and I are experiencing. But I did not join to see my wife labeled in unflattering terms. She is neither a drunk nor is she a loose woman. You are also implying that she is a liar. She is none of those things. I have posted as detailed a description of recent past events as best as I can. But the written word can leave many gaps in the story. Gaps such as how loving this woman has been to me for the last 25 years. Has she been perfect? No way but who in this forum is? Is some of her recent behavior LB's? They certainly have been. But I have been guilty of that too. I am working on fixing our marriage and so is my wife. Yes in the last three counseling sessions she has not been present, but she did attend the previous two. My mistake mey have been that I overstated the frequency of her late night outings. Now the 3 am outing was an issue but we have addressed that, and she has agreed that would not happen again. She says that there was one other married co-worker with her besides her boss that night. They talked about many things including work related issues and personal issues such as their own familes. Now unless you want to posit that my wife was part of a threesome, I ask you respectfully not to come to a too rash of a conclusion when evaluating my circumstance. She has fully and honestly disclosed all that she can about that night. I believe her and though she may have hurt me, she has not lied to me. She and I have been opening to each other like we have never done before. But we are not experienced at it. We make mistakes. So to summarize. No affair has occured. She is not a loose woman. She is not a drunk. She is a human being who has done some things that has hurt her husband. She is aware of that and in her own way is trying to make things right again. She has me asked for patience. I love her very much and for the sake of our marriage I will be. So please restrain the labeling unless there is concrete evidence to support the conclusion. Thank you for your concern.