Here is my original post if you would like more background.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

My question...can I ever have a healthy love for my H when all I've ever had is an unhealthy love? If you read my original post here, you can get some kind of an idea of what my M has been like. H was recently diagnosed with bipolar and is now on meds. He is now a very different person. He is nicer, kinder, more appreciative, attentive etc.

Here is the problem... I am not able to be receptive to it, to him. I am not able to trust his behavior, it is foreign to me. My whole relationship with him has pretty much been chaos. One storm after another. I don't know how to handle his "calmness, his niceness". I don't know how to MAKE myself be receptive to him or to view him as anything else than what I"ve always known him to be.

I do feel love for H, but it is not the type of love a W should feel for a H to sustain a happy, healthy M. I am also realizing that it has never been that type of love. It is more of a "caregiver" type of love. I have been his "mom" for so long that I don't view him and never have viewed him as an equal or a partner in this M. I don't know how to change that.

I always thought that once he was "better" or once he "saw the light" with the way that he's treated me and fixed it, we would live "happily ever after." I'm starting to fear that this "niceness" came too late. I'm afraid that somewhere in my mind I've already given up on this M. I am hoping that someone here can give me some direction/input/words of advice about how I can change that.

H IS trying, he IS going to counseling, he IS taking his meds, he says he'll do anything, says he's sorry for the way he's treated me, says he wants to start a new life. Problem is...I don't know if I have anything left in me to give to this M anymore. I literally CRINGE when he touches me and sometimes even when he talks to me. I've NEVER been this way with H before. It makes me short with him, which frustrates him AND makes me a stressed out mess.

I feel like if he is trying - I HAVE to try as well. I feel it is my DUTY as my kid's mother. I OWE it to them. Even after the way he's treated me for so many years, I feel that I HAVE to try for our family. I WANT to want to try. I don't know how.

I am afraid that with everything he's done to me that there has been too much love lost for my H. How do I change that? How can I love with my H the "right" way? I don't want the caregiver love that I had before.

H is being more consistant, more stable, sought out professional help, professes his love to me daily, says he'll do anything, he's sorry for the way that he's treated me says that he loves me more than life itsself. H is in pain and turmoil every day because he knows that I don't feel the way that I use to about him now. He beats himself up up daily because he knows he didn't care for our M the way that he should have. Now more than ever he realizes the damage he's done. If only he'd seen this 2 years ago - if only. Believe me - it's not because I didn't verbalize my unhappiness along the way. I verbalized it constantly. It fell on deaf ears.

I will also say that I've always HATED the role that I've had to play with H. I've NEVER wanted that and I am POSITIVE that the chaos is not something that I "need" in order to feel good about myself. It was something that i was desperately trying to get away from.

My question - does anyone have any words of advice as to how I can love my H and have a healthy M? How can I view him as something different than what I've always viewed him as? If his behavior continues, I feel like I HAVE to stay in this M. How can I make myself WANT to stay? BTW, I just bought HNHN, Love Busters, Fall in Love, Stay in Love, Not just friends. I just got them and plan on reading them soon. Any words of advice? Anything that can help me view my H through a new set of eyes? Anything that can help me love my H and have a healthy M? Is it possible to turn a "friendly" love, the kind that you feel towards a good friend, into a "marital" love? (I hope that makes sense.) Is it possible to make yourself love someone in order to keep a M intact?

Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it.

Dear Callie,

I think it's most important for you to examine yourself in this.
Are you able to have a R with an "equal" partner?
Would you look for another person to "be a mom for" rather than have an equal partnership ?

I'm not judging you.
I have been there, done that.
I didn't look for an equal partner, I looked for someone who "needed my help".
This stems from childhood - my father and mother having a rather dysfunctional M, and me trying to make my father "happy" by being a "nice girl" so there would be no tension in the household.
I didn't learn about equality - I learned to help, care, compromise, rather in one-way manner.
And that is what I took into my adult relationships.

It doesn't matter that I never liked this or felt good in it.
It was just something I looked for, somehow, because it just was "the way things are" - not that I ever looked at it this way!
But I just zoomed in on that sort of men, fitting the pattern.
I hated the life it got me into.
I hated not being treated with respect or care.
Yet I choose the same sort of partner again.. and again.

I think you can do yourself a world of good by trying to grow with your H here.
And examine your own inner "mechanics".
If you give it your best shot and it still doesn't work..
You can move on if you want.

You know, change is always scary and hard. This is a totally foreign environment for you. Give it time. You also need to feel like this is a change in your H that will really "stick." You might be in a "when will the shoe drop" mode. Are you two in counseling together? Maybe you need to air your concerns in front of a neutral party, one who can help you come up with solutions.

Good luck!

BH,thank you for your response. I have thought of that, I'm sure that's not it. I fell in love with H 19 years ago and I think his BPD kicked in about 17 years ago. In the beginning he was good to me. I was in love with him and I did feel the need to help / fix / be there for H when he started screwing up because I knew what kind of person he was in his heart. (please remember I've been dealing w/ undiagnosed BPD for about 17 years.). I felt like he was the one I chose, it was my responsibility to make it work.

If I am honest, I will say that I will most likely be somewhat dominant in most any relationship that I have, BUT I DO NOT want to carry the ENTIRE relationship. I don't want a 3rd child.

If you read my background, you know that I had a very strong EA about 1.5 years ago (before I get jumped, please read my original post to know what I've dealt with from H.) OM was completely opposite of H. Ever since then, I've not been able to get back in to my M. I'm realizing that I was making my way out of my M before EA started. I don't know how to get back in. I don't know how to make myself get back into my M. I know I can go through the motions to be M, but I want something more. If H was ever capable of something more, it would be now. How can I make myself to be receptive to it? How can I make myself trust it when I've been let down by it repeatedly for 17 years?? BTW, I have been / am in counseling. IC feels that I'm done, I just need to recognize it. I feel like I'm giving up if I recognize it. I am tearing a family apart if I recognize it. I am letting go of someone who has FINALLY become a "good guy" if I recognize it.

Again, thank you for your help and insight.

I am far from an expert. But here I am, posting anyways.

The first, probably oversimplified, response I have is that I sense love all over your post. Even when you can't feel love, it's there in the choices you make. It's a commitment and by standing by your husband even when he could not reciprocate due to his illness, you showed the deepest kind.

The hard part is accepting his love in return, and I can deeply relate to you there. You've been hurt so bad, and when he touches you, it's like he's putting his finger on a gaping wound.

Wounds heal, given time. You won't forget, but you have it in you to forgive. Everyone does. It's frustrating not to be in synch with him when he's expressing his commitment to you, finally. Wouldn't it be perfect if you could suddenly transform your marriage into what it should be? It takes time, and you're being too hard on yourself. And while you're at it, you need to be able to forgive yourself for your past mistakes.

I didn't read your entire last thread...but perhaps that includes asking the forgiveness of the OM's wife. I don't know how you could move forward in your life without that...and again, sorry if this territory has alreay been covered. If she's not real to you, if you cannot wrap your mind around her pain, it's a sure sign that you're cut off from feeling genuine emotions, still in a fog. If you are continuing to live in a fantasy, and you can't move forward.

You're showing your love for your H by seeking out tools and wanting advice. You are already seeing him through a new set of eyes. Your healing will come.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think you married your husband to take care of him. You married him because, at one point, those romantic feelings were there between the two of you. You just can't remember them. But they're there. It just takes time, frustrating time....

Hi Callie,
I took interest in your thread as my spouse also has BPD.

H was a loving, kind, fun, sensitive and caring person when
we met, and our first several years together- dating, living
together, and then marrying, were wonderful.
I did recognize that H was a quiet person, introverted, not
too big on or good at discussing feelings and emotions, and
that he tended to view things in a negative and pessimistic
manner, kind of the "glass is half empty" kind of mentality,
whereas I was more outgoing, upbeat and positive.

A couple years into our marriage, H came home from a Dr.
appt and said he'd been diagnosed with depression and OCD.
(obsessive-compulsive disorder). Many of the things he told
me about symptoms and traits really fit him, and I was glad
he had made the effort to talk to the Dr and ask for help.
H began anti-depressants and over the next five years was
probably on 10-12 different ones, all which helped a little
but not a great deal. He was also tried on medications for
ADD, which didn't help at all, and tried counseling with two
different people, neithre of which he stuck with for too
long, as he didn't feel it helped. I tried to always be
supportive and helpful, encouraged him to keep trying, not
get discouraged, and as you've said, probably took on a bit
of a "mother" role, without realizing it or wanting to do
so.

By middle of 2005 we had many problems going on and H seemed
to be out of control and behaving in a very bizarre manner.
He stayed out late, using the computer at work, and I began
to suspect he was looking at porn, dating sites, etc. He
lied, disappeared at times, went out more often than usual,
and scared me to death by drinking much more than ever.
He also seemed to be driven to buy more and more "things",
but still was discontent, unhappy, grouchy, moody and very
negative. I tried everything I could think of, talked to my
own IC, read and researched, and began to feel he was BPD
based on his behavior. Tried to talk to him about it, get
him to get back to Dr., be he wasn't interested and said
"it had nothing to do with it".
In Aug 2005, he came home saying he was "unhappy and not
content with me or our marriage" and ranted and raved about
getting divorced. He moved out, but wouldn't tell me where he was staying or what was going on. I strongly suspected an affair.
In Oct 2005, I got a call from the OW, and found out he had
met her online, had spent hours on the phone, TM, and email
with her, and flown to meet her out of town before helping
her move to our town and immediately moving in with her.
She told me all the gory details, all he had told her, and
I found out he had lied about almost everything. OW was
furious and kicked him out, at which time he was so mad at
me he filed the D paperwork. He moved into a new place, by
himself, and after two weeks was back fully into the affair.

Went through Nov and Dec seeing and talking to WH often,
but with him totally unwilling to end the affair. He seemed
confused, definitely "foggy", and his going out, spending,
and other odd behaviors continued.
Then, in the middle of the night on Christmas Eve, I got a
phone call from WH. He had been arrested for DUI and needed
help- had no one to call since he had no friends, and he
couldn't have OW help, because she was there with him.
I picked him up, saw and talked to him often in the next
few days. He was the most depressed and anxious I'd ever
seen him- couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, sobbing and scared,
and in very poor shape mentally. Within a couple of days
however, he seemed out of the "fog", more clear thinking,
and asked me to tell him more about BPD and why I thought
he might have it. He apologized for hurting me, for the
lies and cheating, said he wanted to be back together,
would end it with OW, and asked me to go with him to see
the Dr. and a counselor he set up.
Dr said they had basically done all they could for WH and
that he should see a specialist, and gave him screening
tests to take for the Psychiatrist. We went to the IC, and
she immediately saw that WH was in bad shape and got him
an emergency appt with the Psychiatrist. After one appt.
where the Dr asked lots of questions, looked at WH's meds
history and screening tests, he firmly diagnosed him with
BPD. Said it was common that people with it were often
misdiagnosed with depression and that AD's were not very
effective at all, actually sometimes even making the person
worse. Hearing more about BPD, the fact that it can be hard
to treat, the trial/error needed on meds, and counseling
might had been a bit daunting, except that after all that
time and years without relief, I was so glad to finally
hear something that made sense and provided some hope.
WH started new meds and immediately seemed more "up" than
I'd ever seen him, said he felt better than he had in years,
etc. We started talking about reconciliation, and I saw some
very genuine remorse and effort on his part.

Unfortunately, the original medicine began to lose it's
positive effects in just a couple of weeks and WH began
to get back down into depression again. He was changed to
different meds, but never has again felt as good as he was
initially. I continued going with him to his appts and IC
for several months, until I began to feel it wasn't helping.
After two months of "false recovery" I discovered the affair
was back on, and WH moved out again in March.

Since then, he has continued to see his IC (although I
found her to be more "enabling" than helping) and he is
still taking BPD meds, but I dont think they have ever
gotten the right "mix". He has continued to spend in a
lavish manner, continue with his affair, and even had
OW living with him for a few months until they had yet
another "break up" and she moved out. Didn't last long
though, and they were back together. I believe she put
out an "ultimatum" that WH must get D, and he again
filed the paperwork (never acted on the set he filed
last year, so they had expired).

I am not feeling much hope of things changing or turning
around now, as WH is very cold, closed off, seemed to have
entirely locked away any feeling, thoughts or memories of
me or US, and still continues to spend in what I feel is
an out of control manner. Very hard to know how much of
him is the BPD and how much is the affair "fog", but I
have begun to wonder if he never did come out of the manic
cycle he was in at time of diagnosis, or if that's even
possible ?
Or, if he has cycled back again into manic mode ?

Biggest question has been, how he went from being the nice,
caring, kind, "normal" guy I married, to this very, very
different not nice, uncaring, unkind, selfish and closed
off person. Can't figure out if he had BPD for a long time
prior to diagnosis but had it more under control and it got
worse to the point where he can't now, or what happened ?

Just wanted to say I am happy for you that your H seems
to be getting it under control, and is ready, willing, and
hopefully able to work on a reconciliation of your marriage.
I can totally understand your feelings, because his change
is going to create a total change in the whole dynamics of
your relationship now, after such a long time in different
roles. I would suspect it's just going to take time, effort,
and patience. I'd definitely think that counseling for both
of you together would be helpful, and perhaps also a support
group for BPD.

Best wishes,
Slammed

callie,

The mind is a terrible thing.....

When you are in an unhealthy M and it has been that way for a while that is what you know.

I am sure there have been many times over the last 17 years that you saw a minor change in him and believed things were going to be different.

He may have treated you poorly and appologized. He may have stepped up to the plate and you believed change had occured.

You may have seen short term change but the consistent pattern of behavior was not a healthy dynamic.

Now it seems like the change may be long term which is good but you have to keep your guard up because you have seen it before and let your gaurd down only to fall right back into the healthy relationship. Each time you let your guard down and you got hurt it becomes harder and harder to believe this is a long term change with a consistent pattern of behavior that makes you believe it is true.

Now things seem to be getting better and you don't want to let your gaurd down. I think the time will come when you see a long term pattern of behavior that leads you to believe it is safe to let your gaurd down a little.

I think when you do you will be happy.

I think when you lose the fear that the next shoe will drop you will be able to open back up.

Hopefully you can see an IC as well to see why you stayed within this dynamic.

It is no fun being a parent to your spouse. So sooner or later you need to stop.

Thank you for your responses. Frognomore, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with how I feel. I don't yet trust him or his behavior fully, although I am trying. I sometimes feel like I'm just waiting for the next storm. This is frustrating him and he doesn't understand why I'm not being "receptive" to him. I've told him that this is the only way that I know how to be with him and he can't expect me to flip a switch and change just like that.

Slammed1, I can see how you chose your username. You certainly have been slammed haven't you? I am glad that you're out of that mess. You deserve some peace.

Imagination, thank you for such a nice post. I do feel love for H, I'm just trying to figure out if the "friendly" love can be replaced with a "marital" love.

Above all, I know that I need to give this time - I'm trying. It has been about 2 months since he's been properly medicated. I know that may not be much time, but when I'm this "unsettled" it seems like a lifetime. I keep hoping, searching for the feelings of love that I once had for him to return. So far there is no sign of them and I guess that scares me, stresses me out and leaves my mind at war with what to do.

If only he would have been diagnosed years ago, things would have been so different. Because of this illness I view my H through the eyes of a mother and I'm afraid that may never change, I'm trying, he's trying, I guess that's all I can do. Thanks again for your input. It is greatly appreciated.