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Joined: Oct 2006
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My name is Jason. Before you read and respond to this thread you have to understand a couple things about me...

First things first, this would be the disclaimer. I write for days. It seems at times much easier for me sometimes to sit and write things out than it will be for my spouse. I am not saying that I am smarter than her, because she is extremely intelligent; I just have more practice at this sort of thing. Insults... If you are here to help me, that is wonderful. I would like to take the time to thank you right here. However, as even Dr. Harvey says "Every person is unique." and I am no exception to this. If you see a problem with something I have wrote about, draw me out, ask questions, and do not jump to conclusions. I have seen many times already on this site that people (even I) jump to a conclusion and in my opinion it just ends wrong. I would appreciate if we kept the negativity out of this thread as I am here to heal and hopefully help my wife and I move on from this. I know many of you have seen and been through alot of this type of things, but again I quote Dr. Harvey when I say, this is an "individual marriage", not the "average one". So I ask again that you focus on the marriage. If there is a pertinent issue that you see as a contributor, feel free to engage in a conversation about it, but please lets not stray to far from what the goal here is. Thank you again.


Ok, so here we go. I am the betrayed spouse. This is my second marriage and the first one ended in much the same way this one may end, my wife’s infidelity. Each marriage was different, and as much as I compare the two sometimes, they are unique in spirit and in person. That goes for both people too, not just the woman of my life, but I am also much different. After reading almost all the information on the site, I have started "His needs, Her needs" and I think I understand more clearly what to do and where to go from here.

I am no stranger to counseling. I have been to therapists as well as my wife. A year back, we were not having huge issues, just communication problems so we went to a marriage councilor. I have read many books on this topic and been through hours of study because I was determined not to let this marriage end. Some of this material really made sense to me and I really identified with lots of it.

As many of you know already, my wife was the first one to this site. She authored the thread "I am an adulteress" and after many wayward turns, seems to finally be on track to helping her along the way. I am doing this thread for 2 reasons, first, there are feelings I have that I want to know if they are normal in this process, and second, because I want to discuss what I think my wife’s issue is. I need to know that I am not responsible for this behavior. Regardless if I continue with this marriage or move on, I need to know I am ok.

I have put off writing this thread for many reasons. I wanted Jess to make an honest effort at self discovery and self evaluation before I tried to help. I also wanted to read up and make sure that what I thought to be the cause was in fact the cause. Well, Jess has been trying, and she has made some honest progress, but I don't think she is going to get there with out more help from me. Most of the people here have given her wonderful advice, but again this is the internet, and though the advice is pertinent to the situation, some of it may not get translated into ways that she and I can understand... In the end, it’s us that have to work it out, and who speaks each others language better than us.

As I mentioned, I have used other recourses to try to strengthen our marriage. One of these is The 5 love languages by Dr. Chapman . The concepts he puts forth are very good for understanding the differences of men and women and like Dr. Harvey's 10 basic needs, is a great starting point. However we come to another crux. Dr. Harvey outlines repeatedly, that while every relationship is unique, there are averages. I agree with this, but where do I draw the line? Who is right, and who is wrong? Again I have to draw on Dr. Harvey and believe that every one and every marriage is unique.

I am not going to go back over the details line by line here. That can be done in my wife’s thread which is linked already above. What I want to talk about as I have said, is my feelings first. When it happened to me in my first marriage, I don't think I let it bother me as much as this one is. I was a Marine at the time and everything that accompanied that. I was as tough inside as I was outside. I realize years later when Jessica and I were building our relationship, that this statement wasn't exactly true. I had tons of hang ups over the weirdest things that I had sewed into my personality like an armor jacket. My armor was the lies that I would tell myself and others, so that I would not be that venerable again. Jessica was patient though. She slowly removed each thread with care and concern until I was fully exposed. She worked through every lie, half truth, and defense I had. Though it did create strain, it also strengthened us to the point of invulnerability. Nothing could touch us for long. We of course had our ups and downs, but we were always able to push through it.

Thinking back on this stuff, it makes me sad. The thought that we were invincible was something I clung to. Maybe even a little desperately. This became my new armor. I wrapped our relationship around me so tight, I knew nothing could ever separate it from me... Yet here I am.

Question 1. How do I ever get past, this huge trust issue that this created?
Question 2. Does it ever go back to normal?
Question 3. Can I trust myself enough, to not sabotage the relationship because of the bitterness?


For Jessica’s part, she says she is willing to do anything it takes to make this up and move forward. Each day she is very attentive, and allows me my space when I have to have it and fills my emotional needs when I ask. What I am scared of as well is her loosing herself in the process. She is such a strong woman full of independence. This was to me one of the most attractive qualities; will she give that up now? Will she loose herself in fixing this and become someone that I won't be attracted to anyway?

Jessica has Caretaker Personality Syndrome. There is a very good book written about it by Les Barbanell called: Removing the Mask of Kindness: Diagnosis and Treatment of the Caretaker Personality Syndrome . She always wants to help those that she feels need help. This has never applied to me, which is why she feels safe with me. This friend of ours was such a person however. He is a 27 year old man. He has a drug habit, he is short, and he smokes. I am not making fun of him, I am pointing out these traits as they are marks against him in Jessica’s book. Totally something she would never be attracted to were she single. He just recently went through a breakup with his long time girlfriend because she was cheating on him. This is where Jessica stepped in. Jessica wanted to help him so bad. We have all been friends for a couple of years, but when he and his girl friend split, that’s when it became dangerous for Jessica.

Now here is where I apply Dr Harvey love bank AND Jessica’s emotional needs. She took the EN quiz and wizzed through it stating to me that she could not identify 1 thing that I was not meeting. I looked at Dr Harvey's top 10, and I could really seem to find any that she would identify that I wasn't meeting on some level. After becoming so frustrated by this that I couldn't stand it, I had to go back to the beginning and think about this. After re0reading all she has said here in this forum, and a couple emails she sent to me, I think I may have figured it out.

Like I said, she is a caretaker. This has become an emotional need for her. In fact I believe it to be closer to her 3rd highest than to her 5th. This man was filling her love bank, based off of her emotional need to care for him. He responded to her administrations by doing and saying things based off of advice or conversations between them. He quit smoking, he has cut down on drug use, and was limiting the women he saw based on Jessica’s approval. All things to fill her bank and obviously making my deposits in adequate.

Now I am stuck with this. Again the questions:
1. Is this a mental illness, and if so, can she be treated?
2. If I stay, can I ever allow her to have male friends again?
3. Is my life ever going to be normal again?


I am not sure where to go from here. I am trying to reconnect with her. It’s only been 21 days though. I know I love her, but the betrayal is just so horrific. I am afraid of either future... If I stay with her, am I going to ruin my marriage in some way, am I going to ruin her in some way, or even ruin myself? If I leave, is the next woman in my life doomed to repeat what Jessica went through only 2 fold? Who would stay around for that? I know that anything worth having takes work, but how much work is too much?

I thank you all for your time and patience with me and Jessica. I know that neither of us are easy people sometimes. I look forward to your replies...

Jason/Vash


It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt... ~Sun Tsu
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Good to see you finally posting here Jason! Let me read thru your post and see where to start!


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

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Could it have been the ADMIRATION NEED that the FOW was meeting?

My FWH was a CARETAKER to the much younger FOW..ADDICTED to her ADMIRATION of him more than anything else


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I don't have an answer for you Vash. I read what happened and the betrayal was like you said absolutely horrific with the fact of you being in the same place where the betrayal occurred and walking in after it was completed. I just have such a hard time comprehending that a spouse could this knowing that her spouse was present at the same place. This to me shows such a betrayal that it borders on perverse in its nature. The humiliation that you sufferred had to be great and the fact that she called him again and contacted him again really implies that this action was really pre-planned. Finally, your spouses comments indicated that up to that point she knew what she was doing was wrong by meeting with him behind your back and continued anyway. She did what she wanted to do and jumped at the opportunity regardless of the fact that you were there and stood a good chance that she would be caught.

Your wife's desire to help people no matter what and her desire to flirt has lead to this great pain for you. There are many women who do not cheat and many women (just like men) who do cheat. The fact that your previous spouse cheated on you and now this one does not mean all women cheat. Notice that you never cheated on your either of your spouses and I am sure you had opportunities. There is a reason for this because of who you are and what type of character you have. The fact that your present spouse has seriously flirted with other men shows this was a disaster just waiting to happen. Can she change- Possibly. Can you catch a falling knive - possibly. The question is what is your risk tolerance level. Your wife has or had severe boundary issues by flirting with other men and simply did not even realize how incredibly disrespectful and humiiating it has been to you. Hopefully counseling will help. Only you can answer how damaging her behavior was to you and whether it is in your interest in long term to stay in the marriage with somebody that would do such a thing to you. I wish you luck.

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P.S.

One other thing I fogot to mention that I find very distressing is that your present spouse knew that you had been cheated on in your first marriage and worked with you to get over it and move on with your future with her. The fact that she would engage in this same behavior knowing full well what the consequences of her actions would mean to you emotionally and its effect on you sends a very bad message to you on multi-levels.

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Vash,

Glad to see you have your own thread, but sorry that you have to be here at all.

I feel your pain. I relate very well because I never imagined that my exw would do this to me either. I never thought she would be unfaithful, yet she did so after I deployed. I was only gone for 2 months, yet it was enough to push her to infidelity.

The pain you feel is horrible. The betrayal, the mental images of her with someone else, the lack of sleep, the lack of desire for sleep or sex. You're not yourself.

Will you ever recover? Sure, with hard work. I'm positive that if you and your ww work together, especially with her being contrite, that you will work through this and come out the other end stronger for it.

I have my two cents on her having male friends. Nothing wrong with it as long as there are clear boundaries. For example, I never talked to my female friends outside of work, would never meet with them 1 on 1. I made a very conscious effort to not flirt with other women, especially if I found them attractive. I especially stayed away if I found them attractive. Limited it to a very professional and polite interaction. If you interact with a member or the opposite sex, let your ex know. I always told my w when I talked to a female friend on the phone. Same with e-mails. I'd simply say something like, "hey, so and so wrote me." If she wanted to read the message she was welcome to. You need this kind of openness with your marriage. That's the kind you need to have to re-establish that trust.

Your w will have to earn your trust. To do so, she has to agree to being under a microscope for a period of time. You should have full and open access to her cell phone, bills, and e-mail. She should immediately cancel her myspace account. That site is a "hookup" site, I don't care what anyone else says. No reason for married people to be on there except to possibly contact friends from college, and even then, the profile should be private and a joint one between you and her.

Time will be what heals. I have been willing to forgive my ex for what she's done if she showed any sort of remore. To this day I haven't gotten an apology. Just the other day she said to me that it wasn't like she was having some major affair. She made one mistake one night. This supposedly makes it better. The dates she went on with the other men and the oral sex she engaged in with the fourth is somehow ok because it only got physcial with one of them.

This is where you should be grateful for having a ww that is actively pursuing earning the fww label. So many of us here desire to have a woman that shows the kind of contrition and willingness to explore what led her down this path.

Some of the things you mentioned before are ones myself and others can very much relate to. You mentioned having problems "relieving" yourself. Completely understand and relate. You try and find your mind wandering to what your w did with this other man. Suddenly, you can't.

You're angry at times and want to scream at her. Other times you want to cry and do cry from the betrayal.

You want to know all the details. Every little detail. Who kissed who first? How long did you kiss for? Did all your clothes come off? What positions did they do things in? Was it on the floor, on a couch, in a bed? What did she do to him? What did he do to her? You ask yourself these questions and then barrage her with them. She doesn't want to talk about it.

You're in good company here. Many of us can relate. Forgiveness is up to you, but many of us would encourage you to do so.

On a separate note, MM, it would be great to get your two cents once you're done giving them to Vash. You're a man with lots of wisdom. I have my own battle starting on the 31st. Your advice for that would be greatly appreciated, if you don't mind throwing your two cents into my thread.

Vash, I welcome your opinion as well.

Good luck, and vent here all you want.


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Jason,

Since you asked a lot of questions here, I am just going to go thru your post and answer them. Then we can head in the direction that seems pertinent.

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Ok, so here we go. I am the betrayed spouse. This is my second marriage and the first one ended in much the same way this one may end, my wife’s infidelity. Each marriage was different, and as much as I compare the two sometimes, they are unique in spirit and in person. That goes for both people too, not just the woman of my life, but I am also much different. After reading almost all the information on the site, I have started "His needs, Her needs" and I think I understand more clearly what to do and where to go from here.

Education will be your biggest friend. Understanding all of this will help you get past it. Jessica too!

Quote
I am no stranger to counseling. I have been to therapists as well as my wife. A year back, we were not having huge issues, just communication problems so we went to a marriage councilor. I have read many books on this topic and been through hours of study because I was determined not to let this marriage end. Some of this material really made sense to me and I really identified with lots of it.

As many of you know already, my wife was the first one to this site. She authored the thread "I am an adulteress" and after many wayward turns, seems to finally be on track to helping her along the way. I am doing this thread for 2 reasons, first, there are feelings I have that I want to know if they are normal in this process, and second, because I want to discuss what I think my wife’s issue is.

Very good, Jason. You are asking the right questions!

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I need to know that I am not responsible for this behavior. Regardless if I continue with this marriage or move on, I need to know I am ok.

I have a question I need you to answer. It wont change whether I help or not...just want to know your perspective. Are you a Christian and is your wife a Christian?

Now, whether you will be okay or not...that is up to YOU! You are not responsible for her betrayal. You ARE responsible for your part in any problems in the relationship. So is Jessica. She alone is responsible, though, for her adultery. So, do not take that on yourself.

You will be okay, whether the marriage ends or is reconciled...if you follow the process. Too many end things without going through it...and then wake up years later wishing they had.

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I have put off writing this thread for many reasons. I wanted Jess to make an honest effort at self discovery and self evaluation before I tried to help.

Very good!

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I also wanted to read up and make sure that what I thought to be the cause was in fact the cause. Well, Jess has been trying, and she has made some honest progress, but I don't think she is going to get there with out more help from me. Most of the people here have given her wonderful advice, but again this is the internet, and though the advice is pertinent to the situation, some of it may not get translated into ways that she and I can understand... In the end, it’s us that have to work it out, and who speaks each others language better than us.

As I mentioned, I have used other recourses to try to strengthen our marriage. One of these is The 5 love languages by Dr. Chapman . The concepts he puts forth are very good for understanding the differences of men and women and like Dr. Harvey's 10 basic needs, is a great starting point. However we come to another crux. Dr. Harvey outlines repeatedly, that while every relationship is unique, there are averages. I agree with this, but where do I draw the line? Who is right, and who is wrong? Again I have to draw on Dr. Harvey and believe that every one and every marriage is unique.

You say this alot, Jason. About your marriage being unique. And it is to an extent. But it also is very much the same as any other in the generic form. As you read on this, you will begin to see that. Dont concentrate on the uniqueness, Jason. That is NOT where your marriage fell. Your marriage fell in the same areas that affect all of our marriages. Sure, one couple might be dealing with financial troubles. Or communication problems. Or substance abuse. But the baseline of what leads to an affair does not change! Except in the occasions of severe mental and/or emotional issues. So, I think you need to focus on not worrying about your marriage being unique...and find out why your wife cheated, as my wife did, as other husband and wives did. There are similarities that run thru all of them. And it is Dr. Harley who is the expert in this area...of discovering them. I would suggest a couple of sessions with Steve Harley for both of you. He is brilliant in getting to the root cause AND coming up with a PLAN!

What you guys need to know is the causes...and have a plan for moving forward. You are lost now but you dont have to be. The Harleys have seen thousands of cases just like yours. And helped them recover their marriages.

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I am not going to go back over the details line by line here. That can be done in my wife’s thread which is linked already above. What I want to talk about as I have said, is my feelings first. When it happened to me in my first marriage, I don't think I let it bother me as much as this one is. I was a Marine at the time and everything that accompanied that.

Retired Army here. Good to know you.

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I was as tough inside as I was outside. I realize years later when Jessica and I were building our relationship, that this statement wasn't exactly true. I had tons of hang ups over the weirdest things that I had sewed into my personality like an armor jacket. My armor was the lies that I would tell myself and others, so that I would not be that venerable again. Jessica was patient though. She slowly removed each thread with care and concern until I was fully exposed. She worked through every lie, half truth, and defense I had. Though it did create strain, it also strengthened us to the point of invulnerability. Nothing could touch us for long. We of course had our ups and downs, but we were always able to push through it.

This is the unique part of your relationship. What made Jason and Jessica a couple. This is the part that will be there as you rebuild. This is NOT the part that caused the adultery. That part lies below.

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Thinking back on this stuff, it makes me sad. The thought that we were invincible was something I clung to. Maybe even a little desperately. This became my new armor. I wrapped our relationship around me so tight, I knew nothing could ever separate it from me... Yet here I am.

If you have read my story, I also thought we were invincible. Only small issues between us. Huge financial issues. But we were active at church, great sex life, great kids. I knew we had some issues, but all-in-all, I felt no one could touch us! But, my wife's #1 need was financial security. As we had the problems with finances, she began to pull back from me. My #1 is Sexual Fulfillment (SF). As she pulled back from me, and my need wasnt being met, I pulled back from her. Not noticably at first. It was a long slow road to where we ended up. Enter the OM.

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Question 1. How do I ever get past, this huge trust issue that this created?

You dont...she does. Time. Work on the marriage. Rebuilding with a sense of knowing what you are doing this time. Knowing that nothign is invincible...you will be able to work harder at keeping the boundaries up. And, most importantly...your wife has already started the process with the huge steps she has made to try to repent and make things better. As I said before...you are a lucky man, Jason. And I believe you already know that!

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Question 2. Does it ever go back to normal?

Normal? What is "normal?" If normal means going back to what you had...who wants that? Remember, that led to adultery. That led to where you are at. You dont want that! Sure, you want parts of that...the good parts. But, you and Jessica have to create a new "normal." One better than before. And yes...you CAN have that!

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Question 3. Can I trust myself enough, to not sabotage the relationship because of the bitterness?

No. That is why you need us. That is why you need professional counseling (pro-marriage counseling like Steve Harley). That is why your wife will need to cut you a break for awhile. That doesnt excuse you to be abusive! But, she will need to understand that there will be low moments for you. And she will have to just be there and you gusy work thru them.

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For Jessica’s part, she says she is willing to do anything it takes to make this up and move forward. Each day she is very attentive, and allows me my space when I have to have it and fills my emotional needs when I ask.

As I said...you are a very lucky man, Jason!

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What I am scared of as well is her loosing herself in the process. She is such a strong woman full of independence. This was to me one of the most attractive qualities; will she give that up now? Will she loose herself in fixing this and become someone that I won't be attracted to anyway?

She wont lose herself. She is learning exactly who she is!! And she didnt know that before. All of us have a "dark side." Stuff we even hide from ourselves. By knowing everything about herself, then she can erect boundaries to protect herself (and you) from the "dark side." By the way...you need to do the same!!

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Jessica has Caretaker Personality Syndrome. There is a very good book written about it by Les Barbanell called: Removing the Mask of Kindness: Diagnosis and Treatment of the Caretaker Personality Syndrome . She always wants to help those that she feels need help. This has never applied to me, which is why she feels safe with me. This friend of ours was such a person however. He is a 27 year old man. He has a drug habit, he is short, and he smokes. I am not making fun of him, I am pointing out these traits as they are marks against him in Jessica’s book. Totally something she would never be attracted to were she single. He just recently went through a breakup with his long time girlfriend because she was cheating on him. This is where Jessica stepped in. Jessica wanted to help him so bad. We have all been friends for a couple of years, but when he and his girl friend split, that’s when it became dangerous for Jessica.

I understand. And yes, one or more needs of hers were being met by her being the caretaker. Believe me, if you could see the Troll (my wife's OM) you would not understand how they got together! It was other issues...just as Jessica and this OM. Once you both understand this, then boundaries can be erected to protect each other and your marriage. The first boundary is radical honesty! If yoru wife feels a needs to help someone of the opposite sex (read: man), then she will need to come to you first. As a general rule, those types of relationships are bad. if that guy needed help, then he needed a man to help him. Your wife should have passed on his need to you and you could have helped him. Married women should NOT have close friendships with men who are not their husband! Same goes the other way around. It is disrespectful. It is wrong. And it leads to messes just like you have today. If Jessica does indeed have this syndrome, than it is doubly imparitive for her NOT to have those kind of relationships.

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Now here is where I apply Dr Harvey love bank AND Jessica’s emotional needs. She took the EN quiz and wizzed through it stating to me that she could not identify 1 thing that I was not meeting.

She isnt looking hard enough! Maybe you were meeting them...but not in the quantity or quality that she needed. I am still waiting on her to post those needs on her thread, because I think they will indeed illuminate where this guy got in. Sure, she wanted to help him. But there was a reason she slept with him...when she didnt sleep with other people that she helped.

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I looked at Dr Harvey's top 10, and I could really seem to find any that she would identify that I wasn't meeting on some level. After becoming so frustrated by this that I couldn't stand it, I had to go back to the beginning and think about this. After re0reading all she has said here in this forum, and a couple emails she sent to me, I think I may have figured it out.

Like I said, she is a caretaker. This has become an emotional need for her. In fact I believe it to be closer to her 3rd highest than to her 5th. This man was filling her love bank, based off of her emotional need to care for him. He responded to her administrations by doing and saying things based off of advice or conversations between them. He quit smoking, he has cut down on drug use, and was limiting the women he saw based on Jessica’s approval. All things to fill her bank and obviously making my deposits in adequate.

Very well could be true. This is why her boundaries must be very high from now on with other men...and she must keep you informed of even the most innocent of relationships.

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Now I am stuck with this. Again the questions:
1. Is this a mental illness, and if so, can she be treated?

Ask a professional! Again, I would suggest in getting an immediate appointment with Steve Harley.

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2. If I stay, can I ever allow her to have male friends again?

Not really. But she shouldnt have had them before. Even if she didnt have this syndrome. She can have male friends in context of you guys being friends with another couple, let's say. Or you have a friend and obviously he would know Jessica thru you. But being close friends? Nope. Look where it led!! She doesnt need those kinds of male friends! The only close male friend she needs is YOU! Same goes the other way, Jason!

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3. Is my life ever going to be normal again?

Re-read what I posted above!

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I am not sure where to go from here. I am trying to reconnect with her. It’s only been 21 days though.

Right! It is going to take months and years to repair this Jason. This isnt a sprint. It is a marathon. Each day you step forward, it will get smaller and smaller in the rearview mirror. Get used to the fact that this is going to take TIME. But be heartened by the fact that so many have moved forward, used the principels here, and have gotten marriages they never believed possible...even before the adultery!

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I know I love her, but the betrayal is just so horrific.

Yes it is. They have measured the pain here, and nothing registers as high...except the death of a child. People have killed because of this pain. People have committed suicide because of this pain. It is nothing to just blow off. Jason, you are entitled to your pain. But, you also need to know that it can mend, it can go away. That will require healing. And the best person to help with that healing will be Jessica.

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I am afraid of either future... If I stay with her, am I going to ruin my marriage in some way, am I going to ruin her in some way, or even ruin myself?

It is possible. Some BSs have revenge affairs. or hold the affair over their spouses head? My question to you is...do you want this pain gone? Do you want a "normal" life? Well, if you do...then you will always ask yourself before you do something, if it is going to lead to more pain or lead to that life that you want.

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If I leave, is the next woman in my life doomed to repeat what Jessica went through only 2 fold? Who would stay around for that? I know that anything worth having takes work, but how much work is too much?

Only you can decide. In my relationship with God, I realize that I will stumble. Sometimes daily! Sometimes multiple times daily! So, I have come to the point that when I fall, Christ picks me up, dusts me off...and we begin again. You are called to have that same relationship with Jessica. She needs that. The work is not too much to handle. I am not minimizing it. it will be tough. Remember, I told you that both of you will now get to truly understand the difference between simple and easy. This all will be incredibly simple. It will not be easy! But nothing in life worth having ever is!

You are an ex-Marine. So, let me talk to you as a Soldier to a Marine. You ever doubt whether you will get the job done? You ever worry that you will let your buddies down...that someone might be killed because of you? did you ever worry that you might fail...and even die? Of course you did! So, why didnt you fail? Why were you able to get up and move forward with confidence?

You see, you and I have something that most people dont. That training the military gave us taught us something that most civilians do not understand. You have been taught the ability to over ride those fears...to trust your training. This is why it is important to get "trained" on this stuff now. Once you have the knowledge, you will then be able to trust the principles and trust those around you. And trust that you will not fail.

I am so glad the American people paid all of that money to get me trained. I would have not made it thru my mess without it!

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I thank you all for your time and patience with me and Jessica. I know that neither of us are easy people sometimes. I look forward to your replies...

Jason/Vash

We are glad you both are here!! And later one, when your marriage is back on track...you can join in and help others also.

But for now...it is time to begin again.


Standing in His Presence

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Vash,

Many care-giver type personalities have an inherrent lack of security and self worthlessness, possibly related to childhood trauma. They find that they are attracted to people with healthy ego's but after a period of time subjugating these feelings with a spouse, they act out in order to to reacquire that security blanket called need. We often see this especially in WS's that choose OP's that are wildy inappropriate. In short, your stability is the worst prescription for your spouse mental health AT THIS TIME

Best of luck


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You believe easily what you hope for ernestly

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Papa,

I am looking at your stuff now.


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Vash:

You say no beat me ups yet, but I couldn't resist,

Its Dr. Harley, Not Dr. Harvey! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Welcome to the MB world, we can all be friends here. Somewhat grumpy, sometimes annoying, always wanting to help. Somewhat like Cheers, but Norm can't share the peanuts with us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Thank you all for taking the time to read and respond to this... It was kind if theraputic to get it out. I am really glad the Jessica found this site.

Mort, thanks for the responces. Its a lot to take in so give me some time. However, I felt it important to answer the question you asked since there seem to be a lot of very devoted people here.... I am not a christian. I am religous, but not christianity... Its a funny story, but I was the typical American caucasian kid. My pareants weren't very religious even though my mother went to a all girl christian college. During my 8 years in the USMC, and then 2 years after I got out, I spent alot of time in China... different story for a different time, but I am actually a Taoist.

My wife, is very spiritual, but she is not really a Chrisitan either. Her mother is a morman, and if Jessica was to claim anything, I think she would claim non practiceing morman.

Thanks everyone for your comments. I look forward to coresponding to all....

LG, that is so funny that I kept doing that, I had his dang book right underneath my arm as I was typing that out... LOL

Vash


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How do I help you to understand?

I do not and will not blame you for the A. I made the decision to do it. I take full responsiblity for my actions.

Emotional needs are new to me. If 22 days ago you would have asked me what they where I would have told you about affection and feeling loved. I didn't understand there was a whole bunch of other stuff involved. You have always made me feel loved and beautiful. Even in the past few days you have even though I broke your heart.

I am so sorry that you feel attacked by my answers. I would never want that. I am not shifting the blame or even trying to. I hope in time weather we stay a family or we move on you understand that.

Sorry for another bad night.

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If not a rule, then it is a generally accepted guideline that BS and WS stay off each others' thread. I think this is vash's thread and, IMO, his WW should respect that. She has her own thread and should post there. Vash is perfectly capable of expressing himself without sideline commentary. For his part, vash should refrain from posting on her thread.

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I agree with Piojitos. Jessica, you need to just not read what Jason posts right now. Unless you have been a BS, it is hard to understand what Jason is going thru. Everything he used to rely on, he is now questioning. He MUST go thru this process. He will, in the end, figure it all out...especially since he is taking the right steps and he has a wife who is also taking the right steps.

He needs this space to sort this out. So, let's get back over to your thread and continue to work on your stuff, okay?


Standing in His Presence

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I agree. Please understand, we know you read each other's threads, but this is a place you guys should be able to come to and vent. Perhaps you could even avoid reading each other's threads.

Something to keep in mind and it is very important. This will be a very turbulent time for both of you. You have to be sensitive to that. You will have great days, you will have bad ones. In time, hopefully, the bad ones become less and less.

I don't know about recovery because I never got the chance to go through it. I can only speak from the BS point of view. Vash, your mood will swing wildly from one extreme to another. It's normal. Let your wife know to expect this and don't let it get you down.

We understand she accepts full responsibility. At this point the goal is to forgive, but not forget. Use it as a lesson to improve and make your marriage better.

Good luck to both of you.


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Question 1. How do I ever get past, this huge trust issue that this created?
Question 2. Does it ever go back to normal?
Question 3. Can I trust myself enough, to not sabotage the relationship because of the bitterness?

It seems that a lot of folks spend a lot of time dealing with the issues of “trust” and “forgiveness”. I might suggest that the reality is that “trust” and “forgiveness” are the culmination of “recovery” and NOT something that brings about recovery. All you need do is to permit them to happen. By that I mean that you must make to conscious decision open yourself up to give “trust” and “forgiveness” a chance and not block it through resentment and bitterness. Sometimes that is no easy task. Trust will return to your relationship as a by-product of all the work that each of you does during recovery. I would like to suggest to you that neither of you spend much time focusing on issues of trust or forgiveness. The simple fact is that it is very normal for you, Jason, to feel “guarded”. You do not have special mind reading powers so you cannot know for certainty what your wife is thinking and in the face of the recent betrayal “trust” cannot be expected. What’s more, you are powerless to simply declare your renewed trust as it can only be restored through time and your wife’s actions in the weeks, months and years to come. Forgiveness manifests itself in the same manner; you cannot simply declare, “I forgive you”, and make it so. But, if you ALLOW her the chance to show you then it becomes up to her to make it happen through a lifetime of acts that are “trustworthy”.

So the way this whole thing works is that each of you is trying everyday to make love bank deposits, eliminate love busters, exercising radical honesty and meeting each other’s emotional needs which I might add is a lot of fun. Then, one day, without much warning you will come to realize that somewhere along the line you have forgiven her. I might advise you both to forget about the “finish line” as the biggest rewards are in the journey.

Will you ever go back to normal? If by normal do you mean, “will you ever again be able to relate to your wife without the horrific feeling of betrayal dominating your thoughts?” The simple answer is that normality awaits you down the road but it takes time and patience. You are three weeks into this and I will assure you again that if you make the decision to “give it a go” then you and your wife will progress a path back to “normal”. She has already made the decision to make it work, now all that remains is that you “get off the fence” and make the conscious decision to join her as it appear in your posts that you still deciding if you want to stay married. Perhaps you have already made that decision but if you haven’t then you will likely wrestle with “bitterness” and that brings us to your next inquiry.

Can you trust yourself enough not to sabotage the relationship because of bitterness? My wife and I are two years through this journey. I have played the magic trump card many times by reminding her using a series of expletives of who she was some two years ago. She had no defense. There is no “come back” to the stark naked truth of having to face a mirror that I hold up. After a while it became clear to me that my actions were the result of a deep resentment that I couldn’t quite shake. So, sometime, and I am not sure when, I just stopped playing the magic trump card and the resentment and bitterness began to fade. With two years of recovery behind us we are very much a partnership of love. It is very, very cool thing. I had thought we were a solid team before the affair (like Jess and you) but now with two years gone we are indeed much stronger as we understand how fragile a relationship can become if not properly tended. Jess and you are learning the same thing.

To put it in Taoist terms, we have found harmony that exists when we are together even when we are apart. The events and lessons flow past us like a whirlwind even though to those who know us we appear to be motionless. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope that some of what I said is helpful,

Mr. G


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Mr. Goodstuff makes good points about trust.


Standing in His Presence

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Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

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I am sick of this process already....

Why do I have to do this all this work, and change all these ways, when I am not the one that broke this trust...

Not only did she break this trust, my heart, and our family, but she lied about it too. I don't just mean lying to me to cover up the affair, she has been lying to me for years.

I am always big about self reflection. When I discover there is something I am not doing, or doing wrong, I try to correct this. Anyone who knows Jessica, knows she has very low self esteem in certain areas. She will cook a meal and ask 50 times if it was OK. So when I reassure her about everything, her looks, her cooking, all the things she does for me, then I ask if she is happy, and she replies yes.... what I am I supposed to think now?

So basicaly, she has lied to me our entire time together.... I don't know if that is something I can "get over" and "forgive"......


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WVG2:

I do not think the Vash thought you were attacking him. It was some of the other posters in MB Land that were attacking. (Attacking is harsh, but your thread did get somewhat combative sometimes)

You have some time and effort to put in to get to what your EN really are. Do not despair about this, It can take awhile to discover them, and they also evolve as well.

I think you should try to stay off of Vash's thread as well. There is some self discovery to be made for both of you on this site. Some of it you have to do together in person, some of it is internal, and some of it can be helped by seeking advice here. Let Vash explore here what he needs to find, and you explore on yours what you need to find. You will find out that us MB'ers can give some level-headed and consistent advice if you hang out long enough. And the experience for WS and BS is so totally different at the start that different types of advice are needed for the two of you now. Later, these things start to focus on your life together as recovery really kicks in.

Vash: About the Harley/Harvey thing.. I did a complete college writing assignment on Shelly's Frankenstein (6 pages!) Even had the title using the name "Vincent's Revenge" and the professor wrote on the essay: "Great paper, but who's Vincent? The title character is Victor!"

We sometimes got locked unto something and never go back and check our facts. Happened a couple of times for me. I try to be careful with my memory now.

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I am sick of this process already....

Why do I have to do this all this work, and change all these ways, when I am not the one that broke this trust...

You are not sick of this, Jason. You want it to go away. And it wont. Look...you arent doing this in order to make what she did right again. You cant do that! She did this, on her own. What you are working on is trying to get past this, and work on laying the groundwork for a firm foundation for the future.

But the only way to do that is to know the TRUTH! The truth about Jessica. The truth about her betrayal. The truth about YOU!! There is much to learn here...even if you decide to move on and divorce. I suspect you dont want that. But no matter which way you go, you have to walk this process through. Otherwise, you will not learn anything from this...it will never make sense...and you will carry this baggage on with life.

I understand how you feel! I do. And understand that it is natural for a BS to feel incredulous at the thought that they have to lift a finger, after what their WS has done. I mean, they should be thanking their lucky stars that the BS is still there, right? The BS deserves better, right? Wrong!

I can guarantee you that even though you have not had sex with another woman while married to yoru current wife, you have done things that have hurt her. And you will do things that hurt her. Maybe not as bad as this. But hurtful nonetheless. And what will Jessica do with that?

You have a choice here. As Steve Harley asked me once "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?" Jason, you are right! It isnt fair. You didnt deserve this pain. But you are going to have to learn the concept of grace...and learn that it is thru the grace that you supply to Jessica that this pain will leave. NOTHING...I mean NOTHING she can do will make up for what she has done. She cannot erase what has happened. But thru your grace...which includes forgiveness...you will find your own healing. And guess what? She will find a man she never knew. She will find a man that she will fall even deepr in love with. A husband that took her at her worst...and showed her love. I knwo you said you guys arent Christians...but this is the story of Jesus.

Jason, you have every right to feel this way. And vent all you want here. Say what you want. But as you do, please listen to those that have walked thsi road before you. And understand that you are not unique in this...and you can get thru this even better than you were before.

I am a living testimony to that!

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Not only did she break this trust, my heart, and our family, but she lied about it too. I don't just mean lying to me to cover up the affair, she has been lying to me for years.

Which is why I said you need to go thru this process. This problem you all have did NOT start in that bedroom. And guess what? yo uare going to find that any underlyign problems that were in the relationship before were there because of BOTH of you. I know you dont want to hear that right now. But at some point, you will need to because fixing the problems of before will head off what just happened. And you will find a marriage that you cannot even comprehend right now!

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I am always big about self reflection. When I discover there is something I am not doing, or doing wrong, I try to correct this. Anyone who knows Jessica, knows she has very low self esteem in certain areas. She will cook a meal and ask 50 times if it was OK. So when I reassure her about everything, her looks, her cooking, all the things she does for me, then I ask if she is happy, and she replies yes.... what I am I supposed to think now?

She probably didnt want to hurt you. But didnt realize that if you dont practice the two Harley principles of radical honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA), then she might (or you might) say what you think your partner wants to hear to make them happy. But dont understand that she was doing so while creating resentment in herself. Read up on these two principles!!

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So basicaly, she has lied to me our entire time together.... I don't know if that is something I can "get over" and "forgive"......

Because of your pain, you are dealing in absolutes right now. It is understandable!! But just know, it is rarely the truth. So, as I said...please continue to vent. But also please listen and read. And if you can, get in with Steve Harley (both of you). It will help immensely!


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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