A portion of a post I had sent on Heartsore's thread...



BTW... any reading here who have not stopped by Heartsore's thread should drop in there for some quality reading. There is an excellent example of hope and courage, a few jokes and debates and the occassional 2X4. Heartsore welcomes all. Soon he will have to hire an assistant to reply to all of the posts.

Back to my stuff...

Yesterday I was having a rough day... today, not so bad.

Some reasons why I've stayed in my relationship...

1) I want to learn how to love unconditionally.
2) I have 2 fantastic sons who need both a mother and father.
3) I have hope.
4) My W has been hurt/abandoned/betrayed by every other man in her life, I don't want to add my name to that list if I can help it.
5) I understand that a big part of the issues surrounding my W's Affairs are about her... I made vows "for better or for worse" and am trying to keep these vows. I will break them if I feel that one or both of us will be better people by separating.
6) I feel that I am a better person right now for staying, learning, and being patient.
7) I love my Wife and feel she loves me.


The issues aren't necessarily about love, they are about challenging ourselves to be better than what we are now. I feel my W is stuck and accepts life as it is... doesn't give or demand better. By me staying, am I doing the same thing? Or is there a way to push improvements without manipulating, controlling, or LBing?

It is important for me to keep growing and I want the best possible marriage. If I have this dream alone, it is difficult to achieve... or is this the best it gets?

I have lots more to say, but I'll start with this much.

Any thoughts, questions, advice, jokes, 2X4's, visits for a cup of coffee, or donations are welcome.

Shaden

... we prefer the nicotine filled taste of Tim Horton's up here in Canada rather than the overly strong, bitter taste of Starbucks...

Shaden

Shaden:

Peace, My Friend.

From all the prior posts that you had, I would have thought that things were going well for you. Your para referenced above on HS thread brought you here for your own advice, eh?

Well, chin up, and as you well know, we can help. The first project is to find out why MrsS is so withdrawn and unwilling to come out and at least meet you half way. Can't ask her, I know. What are your thought's?

As for point 4:

4) My W has been hurt/abandoned/betrayed by every other man in her life, I don't want to add my name to that list if I can help it.

Do you add her EA and PA partners to this list? They don't count. You are not to ever refer to them as being in any way shape or form your equal, OK? If you are referring to past BF's before your M, then, that was long ago. Time for her to get over that. If you are referring to her Father, then that is a more troublesome relationship, and needs to be explored both with MrsS and you, this site can help. And, do not be afraid of adding your name to her list. Her actions may get you to add your name to that list. Her inactions may cause it as well. My BS gathered much strength from the knowledge that she didn't really need me anymore. And it made me want her even more.

As for point 6

6) I feel that I am a better person right now for staying, learning, and being patient.

Yes, you are. And continue to grow, and hopefully MrsS can grow with you.

Many others can give more complete advice, but I wanted to start the discussion...

I prefer CocaCola Zero as my caffine fix...Smooth, no aftertaste.

To point #1:

You probably already know how to love unconditionally. This is the way most parents love their children.

Unconditional love is not really appropriate for spouses. You love your spouse because you want to, but it probably isn't unconditional nor should it be. In the event your love was unconditional and your wife was abusive, the giver/taker balance would be upset and it is likely your wife would continue "taking" without any incentive to give while you either sacrificed yourself endlessly for nothing or began resenting the situation until all your love was gone.

When I read this point of yours Shaden I cringed. Don't fall into any trap of thinking you are responsible for your wife's brokeness or inability to really connect with you on a level one would hope for in marriage, or that you are responsible for seeing that she gets "fixed". All completely up to her. But of course some times as we change we propel some pretty amazing changes in others in our life, and unconditional love and support can only help but she has to move her feet as well at some point. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I love lousygolfers response to you on that point.

I am not here much anymore Shaden but popped in and saw you posted so of course I had to read as I feel you are on a very important journey of personal growth, enlightenment if you will, and love to read what you write and where you are during each step.

BTW, I like both Tim Hortens and Starbucks. No Coca-cola though ...that stuff'll rot your gut! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hiker do you think if you have good boundaries in place this would still be a problem?

I don't know the answer really, but there is a clash between conditional love and uncondional love on a spiritual level. Can this contradiction be resolved, do you think?

For instance I love you and vowed to stay with you but my first responsibility is to my spiritual growth (or God if you like) and your "abuse" (or insert any hurtful behavior which would keep one from fulfilling his own responsibility to himself) is a boundary of mine so I can not stay here and tolerate it any longer.

It doesn't take away from the unconditional love one has for someone if they cannot stay with them, I guess is my point. (if there is one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

I think that setting boundaries (or conditions) constitutes conditional love. That's okay.

I used to believe that unconditional love was the way spouses should love each other. But unconditional love can create an imbalance in a marital relationship that, under certain situations, can actually cause more problems than it seems to solve.

If you operated under the assumption that no matter what you did or how you behaved your spouse would continue to love you, you might be tempted to abuse your relationship.

It's just one of those unfortunate flaws in human behavior.

Weaver:

Thanks for this:

I love lousygolfers response to you on that point.

Like to know I said something sensible.

Also, I wanted to post this thread to my favorites and I had to post something, LOL

Hi LG, thanks for stopping by... I hoped you would, 'cause ve enjoyed your honest, insightful responses to HS.



Yeah, I did add them to the list... last... mostly just to make the list longer. Her list begins with her Father, who was verbally abusive, had multiple affairs, and then after her parents separated, he chose against her. My W and her twin sister had visits with him (they were about 12) and he spent most of the time putting down their mother. Finally they asked him to stop or they didn't want to spend time with him... they were in his car at the time. He stopped the car and told them to leave. They haven't had much contact since... except when my W is sending over some groceries or something to help.

Second is her step-father... the man her Mom left her Dad to be with. It was a typical teenage-stepfather relationship... he was critical and condescending of her. Her sister often found him leering at my W.... although nothing physical ever tried. It was a poor relationship until she moved out to get married (maybe she used me to escape).

Then, about 10 years ago (after her stepfather passed away) she found out her father was not her biological father. She contacted her real father and he refused to acknowledge her.

Her last job she worked in an office alone with her male boss. He was very cold and condescending. When she was going through the effects of withdrawal after DDay, and was on stress leave, he fired her when she returned...basically, and to keep it short, without warning and without cause.

Past boyfriends are not an issue that I know of. We were married young... she was 20.

More on this later...

Shaden

BTW... if cola is the drink, I choose Pepsi. Generally I prefer water or juice (lemonade or iced tea... and not the southern unsweetened stuff).

Shaden

Hi Weaver,

I'm honoured and glad you stopped by. I noticed you hadn't been around much lately. Hope things are going well for you.



I agree with you completely. I see what I'm going through... what we all are going through with these challenges as exactly that. My marriage and life is not an adventure that just stops at the low point that I've faced. Learning and struggling through this is part of the journey.



I think that I have understood throughout this that it is not my responsibility to "fix" my W, nor is it necessarily the best course to stand by her regardless of her actions just for the sake of saying I did.

I say, "I think", because I've discovered throughout this journey that I haven't always known my reasons behind my actions... that I've sometimes deluded myself in thinking I'm doing the right thing when actually I am reacting out of fear.

Eg. being "nice" and justifying that it is right when actually sometimes it is to avoid conflict.

I agree that recovery requires both of us. I agree that "tough love" may require me to separate at some point... that it is not necessarily healthy and beneficial to just stand by her through all things. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is at what point does this happen. Are we still progressing, although slowly, or am I deluding myself again.

Shaden

Hiker... thanks for chiming in. I've seen you around, but I don't think we've connected at all or very often.


Is unconditional love wrong with spouses? My understanding is that is the type of love we strive for in all relationships. You are correct in saying that an unbalanced relationship is not necessarily healthy, but that unbalance is not just the result of one not "giving"... it is that the other "needs" something they are not receiving.

I believe that part of the journey is to learn to not "need" from others... to enjoy what is given, and to learn happiness with what you have.

If this is happening, then the giving is not sacrificial... which implies "giving up" something. When you truly give, are you realling "giving up" something... or you are offering without expectation of return?

This goal is very difficult... only a few have ever come close to this type of mastery of feelings and needs... but this is part of the life journey, maybe.

When we marry (especially at a young age) we just assume that our love will get us through. We know about divorces, but that won't happen to us. We don't realize how hard this journey is. But if it was easy, it wouldn't be worth the effort and would not be fulfilling at the end.

But in saying this, I also understand what you are saying...


One day I believe what I said above, and the next I believe what you have said here. This is when I get into trouble with my emotions... when I can't decide which path is correct.

Shaden

Weaver, I think you are right. Sometimes tough love is showing unconditional love.

"I love you enough to face my fears of being alone and to leave you in order to allow you the opportunity to focus on receiving the help you need to be a better person."

You can still love someone unconditionally and not stay with them. Unconditionally means you are accepting who they are and wanting the best for them. Sometimes the best is for them to be alone... atleast for awhile... so that you are not enabling their destructive behaviors.

Very good point.

Shaden

This seems to be a common fear among those in the beginning stages of recovery on the board.

From my own experience it is not likely you are deluding yourself again once you get to the point of loving your spouse but no longer needing them.

Desperation may be the enabler of self delusion as you don't want to listen to your gut, or look at actions.

When you become strong and unwilling to keep yourself in a hurtful, unhealthy situation you do not overlook the signs any longer. I think we become a little more in touch with the reality of the situation and not that awful fear based place where we fool ourselves into believing something that just isn't true.

I had a very hard time learning to trust myself and my own perceptions of reality, and I am vigilant now of myself...making sure I am clearly seeing things as they are and not letting that old victim mentality creep back in. IE Poor boundaries, not watching actions.

I had a thread on here regarding my own trust issues and you all really helped me with my own self-checks.

Probably good for all people who have been totally blind-sided to check in with others in the beginning stages of personal recovery, as well as marital recovery.

I feel more confident every day that my perception of reality is good now, so I need less assurance from others.

Questioning my own sanity and ability to see things clearly was the hardest for me to overcome or to heal from, and I imagine most of the people on this board as well.

Hiker, you said...



You are correct that this is a danger... but to not love unconditionally because of this possibility or flaw might also be wrong.

That would be similar to saying... if I love my child unconditionally they may grow up spoiled, so I shouldn't love them unconditionally. You still love them, and try to teach them... they choose as they get older what type of people they become. One difference with a spouse, though, is that it is not necessarily our role to teach them... but maybe we can lead instead.



I think the problems are a result of our imperfect nature... not as a result of unconditional love. Because we are imperfect and behave/react in negative ways, or have external needs that we rely on, should not change the fact that the goal of unconditional love is worth striving for.

When the sun hits the ocean on the way "down", just because one person is blind and cannot see it, another is facing the wrong direction, and a third has their view blocked by a tall building does not change the fact that the sunset is beautiful.

And, on the flip side, just because I think the sunset is beautiful does not necessarily mean it is beautiful to all.


Thanks, Hiker... you have me thinking.

Shaden

Shaden:

How about this:

they were in his car at the time. He stopped the car and told them to leave.

Use this as an example of how you are not abandoning her. You had many reasons to stop the car and put her out. You decided not to.

except when my W is sending over some groceries or something to help.

Her father, who was not the biological father, but did all these things, leaving her on the side of the road at 12 years old, and she is sending him groceries? I think he needs to be ignored. Bad people are bad people. Leave them out of your life, no matter what the relationship is. The father is the one who needs to make amends.

Personal experience here, we moved away from my drunken father at 12 years old. He couldn't handle responsibility. Died of a brain anerysem (sp?) 7 years ago. Had to pull the plug. He is always a touchstone as to where I am going wrong. I am doomed to commit some of his mistakes. But, they are mine, and I need to face them, and try to avoid them. We always seem to seek the approval of the people who can hold us down the most. Just by seeking this approval. Still haven't dealt with his ashes, what's up with that? Unresolved issues. That can never be resolved. Work with your W to talk about and address them.


About this one:

It was a poor relationship until she moved out to get married (maybe she used me to escape).

It's ok if she used you as an escape. Be the refuge. You have tried, and she keeps finding others to confide in (EA/PA) Now the process begins to get her to confide in you. Be ready to make the changes in you to allow her to do so.

Also, maybe the step-father was jerk, but was there any good qualities? Try to ask her that. Everyone can recite someones bad points, small or large. Can begin the process of getting closer.

Lets look at this differently:

Then, about 10 years ago (after her stepfather passed away) she found out her father was not her biological father. She contacted her real father and he refused to acknowledge her.

What is up with her mother? Maybe many more issues to explore here. She is the one constant in her life. To reveal after 20-25 years who her real father is, (by extension, only a seed doner) Is just adding turmoil. Truth is good, but what was the underlying purpose? Then she contacts this man who may have never had knowledge of his paternity, and she feels rejected. She and her twin sister can feel that they were "different" because of this, but this guy has had no practical effect on her life, (except as a doner).

Her boss? Jerk. Leave it at that.

Now, where does this leave us?

Your W has had bad relationships with most of the people who are (were, should be, etc) important in her life. This can be something on her part that needs to be addressed. But, you are closing in on having the longest relationship with her after her mother and sister. And you have stayed around, of all the men in her life. Remember that. Let it be one of your mantra's with her. No matter what the other men have done, you are still there. Still by her side. Repeat.

You have a more difficult road than HS I think. You can look at MrsS and see that she could drift into another EA/PA because of the emotional detachment that she has. And her history. You have a more difficult, nuanced fight. But, I think you are up to it. Your previous posts indicate that you have the depth and understanding needed.

Weaver, you said...



This is sometimes tough to know. I believe I am at this point. A few months back, my W and I lay on the bed holding each other while we calmly discussed our separation. I felt I needed more from her and she felt she was giving her best at that time.

I felt at that moment that I could leave and be ok. I didn't want to, but was not panicked by the thought. At the end of the discussion, she asked me to give more time... that she didn't want me to leave (but was ok if I did)... she felt we needed more time. I agreed and stayed.

After, I noticed small changes that she was attempting and things went along fine for awhile.

I chose to focus on finding a new job and not push the relationship until that time. Now I have had one for about a month, and I guess I am getting a little anxious to see further progress.

A month isn't very long. But in my experience, if I don't push a little, then progress, in my view, is not made. She believes progress is happening and maybe internally there is... like her finally choosing to go on AD's... which she was afraid to do because of side-effects like weight gain. I don't want her on AD's, but that she sees the importance of this over less-important factors does show some improvement.

Our relationship is pretty good... but it was this way prior to the A. We were the type that both were conflict avoiders... not many fights. I was putting her first in my life, she was feeling smothered. So just because it is pretty good now, is not necessarily enough for me. I want better, I want honesty and passion. I want positive conflict if there is such a thing. I want to discuss dreams and futures and dig deep. Right now it is mostly day to day stuff and nice.

It is possibe that my expectations are unrealistic... not everyone has the time or energy to dig deep every day or week. Maybe I am asking the wrong way.

I guess I'm not sure yet how to "trust myself and my perceptions of reality". I thought life was good before and it turned upside down on me. I guess accepting mundane, routine life feels dangerous to me.

These are some of the questions I am trying to figure out. Thanks for your response. I think that having this thread will help me as yours helped you.

Don't be a stranger.

Shaden

LG... some more great stuff written. I have to go get ready for work so I'll respond tonight. I'm on the later shift this week.

Thanks,

Shaden

I think you are correct in saying unconditional love is a desirable goal, but I think it is an ideal that, with regard to marital relationships, is difficult if not impossible to attain (in much the way world peace is desirable but seems to be unattainable).

The relationship between parents and their children is significantly different than that which exists between spouses in that we can easily love our children without expectation of any reward for giving them our love. They are not our equals in the scheme of things. We feel a responsibility to children because they have very definite needs that must be addressed and it is our role as parents to deal with these needs. This feeling of responisbility may be learned or perhaps even instinctive.

With spouses, we enter into a relationship because we have our own needs and we are looking for someone to fulfill them. In exchange, we should be able to do the same for our spouse. According to Dr. Harley, it is when someone supplies these emotional needs that we fall in love.

By definition, then, Dr. Harley's view of romantic love is conditional. It follows that if your spouse is not meeting any of your emotional needs, you will probably seek fulfillment elsewhere (presumably another person).

That you should try to live without "wanting" or "needing" is truly a sure way to find inner peace; that such a condition is possible is doubtful. That concept is the foundation of several religions, just as achieving unconditional love for your fellow man is one goal of a Christ-like existence.

If all of us could live without wants or needs there probably wouldn't be any reason for getting married, which is really little more than a ceremonial expression of our desire (want) for a formal commitment to a monogamous relationship.

We all should obey the law, but many of us drive over the speed limit because we want to and have managed to get away with it. Human nature being what it is, you can expect transgressions to be greater when there are little or no checks on it. Your spouse cheated on you and kept it secret in the beginning largely because she didn't want to lose you; later, once she was "in love" with the OP some of her other reasons for secrecy became more important. By so doing, she implied an understanding that there was a condition to some elements of your relationship, infidelity being a clear violation of these conditions.

You and your spouse are equals in the marital relationship, but if you continue to give without any thought of receiving that relationship will likely fail on many fronts. Ideally, your spouse would perceive your unconditional love and return it. In practice, your unconditional love opens the door for your spouse to abuse you. Even when you say that "I love you, but I can no longer live with you because of your infidelity," you are setting boundaries (conditions) of what behavior you will accept from your spouse. In truly unconditional love, why would you do anything different than what you have been doing over time? Would it be done because you can't stand to witness what is going on in the affair? That would be sparing yourself instead of sacrificing. That's not unconditional. Would it be because you are trying to effect a change in your spouse? Trying to change your spouse is a want or a need to fulfill YOUR desire, not his/hers.

Hi Shaden - I'm sorry I only just saw this thread - especially as I was the one who encouraged you to start it.

T me, your description of your wifes behaviour is not that of a woman who wants to recover her marriage. here may be all sorts of reasons, where's and whyfores' here but in the end, she is not doing any heavy lifting.

It is still possible to recover in this situation but it will take far longer and be far more painful than if she was an enthusiastic participant.

I personally would not wish to be in your situation - in fact, if my wife wasn't running right along side with me we would be divorced.

Your wife still has a WS mindset I think.