LG...Excellent idea. My W has actually thanked me for not being like all the other men in her life... but this is an analogy I never thought of.


I agree. The groceries thing generally happens only at times like Christmas... and this is initiated by my W's older sister. This sister keeps drawing my W and her twin into her "Father's" world. She will have a family dinner and invite both parents... generally without telling us. She doesn't know that he is not the biological parent... which is another side issue. I've been quietly putting pressure on the idea that this secret should come out. Her sister will eventually find out and will resent everyone for not knowing all these years. She needs to know the truth and react to it in whatever way she does. My W agrees, but it is her Mom we have to convince.

Her father remarried into a worse marriage. He met her in the psych ward and they feed off of each others negativity. His new wife spends her days drunk on the couch. I'm very glad he doesn't have much to do with us to keep my kids away from this sich.



My W sort of admitted to this when she was in her fog. Even though she pursued me for about 3 years before we started dating, she says now that she was mostly interested in the idea of marriage with a guy she felt was safe and strong to escape from her past. She felt she married too young. I can accept this... I didn't really date many before her and rushed into it as well. We still can love each other and be in love with each other.



You've hit the bullseye here.

Her mom had multiple As, left to be in an A marriage. Chose a stepfather the kids weren't happy with (this is not unusual), kept secrets and still does, and even warned OM on me when I was going to tell OMW. She was living with us that year when the A happened.

My W is aware that there are issues here... that there is always guilt from her Mom and that she felt (even as a 12 year old) and still does that she was responsible for her Mom. Now with health problems, financial problems, loneliness , etc. her Mom is facing, my W feels trapped. She is her Mom's best friend. This is not a healthy relationship, IMO, and I have used examples of how her twin seems to have set some boundaries... not available for every iota of her Mom's problems... but this just adds pressure for her to be there for her Mom... because her sisters aren't. Her Mom is the only reason we have not moved from our city and start a life somewhere else. My W sees this, but, after all this time, how do you "abandon" her. It might have to be a boundary that I choose in the future, but that will be a tough one. I will be telling her to choose between her Mom or Me. Guess who loses that one... I guess I lose both ways.

Her Mom is not a terrible person, but has made some terrible choices with questionable ethics behind it. She is very giving, kind, and loving... but also very needy. She has faced many trials due to her bad decisions and still is today with my W's decisions.



Thank you for saying these words. Often when I am having days where I want to run, it is the thought that I am or want to be stronger and better than all of this that keeps me grounded. I don't want to fail here. I need to choose carefully and wisely and if I set new boundaries and enforce them, I want to be sure of the timing... that I have done everything I could. Separation may be the only thing that has an effect... but once I go this route I need to know that I am ready for it to be permanent.

Shaden

Overall, I thought things were going well. But when I read Noodles comments about entrenchment and when others started suggesting Plan B to HS, I started to think about where I really was in all of this. I am questioning if I am on the right path or are we sitting on a bench resting while the next crisis is looming around the corner.

I love my W and she has many great qualities. Life with her as it is right now is good... pleasant. But it was pre-A. If I'm not seeing any changes, then history suggests I will be back on this forum discussing A #4.

There is the chance that she has really learned through this... this is the first of the 3 that we've had any consequences from... but even if she does not choose to escape with an A, she is still not sorting through the issues and expecting happiness to come to her. She will choose divorce or other routes the next time she feels lost or overwhelmed.

Shaden

Shaden:

Time is short for me today, I will post more soon. I did have a longer post, but it blew up and went away.

I recommend you check your personal schedule and see if you are spending 15 hours a week with MrsS. Sleeping in bed hours are not included!

I was expanding on this when it went away.

Hiker said...


...But we still keep trying.



Isn't this what we term as romantic love? That we fall in love because our needs are being met. I agree that this happens, and is the basis for many/most relationships, but it is also the arguments used against affairs and affair marriages... that someone has met a need and we "fall in love".

Agape love is about showing love even when it is not necessarily deserved or returned. Real love is all the loving acts shown.

I have also read the idea that the reason for marriage isn't necessarily about feeling love or happiness, but also as a primary means to grow as people. What better way to learn how to be patient, understanding, forgiving, loving, caring, strong, etc., then in a marriage relationship? If our mission in life is to grow to be better people in all areas, then a marriage is a powerful tool to help.

...of course being in love makes it all the much better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



I agree.



Not quite sure what you mean here.

One note, I am certain the Affair is over and withdrawal from that relationship "complete" (or atleast dormant). What I am not certain is whether the idea of getting happiness through a fantasy like an A is not still an issue, and whether she is committed to our marriage because she wants to and it is right, or because it is her best option right now. She did say all along that she did not see herself leaving the marriage to be with OM. She might have left because she felt she would be happier on her own or in another life.



I understand what you are saying... just not sure of the answer yet. Some days I try to accept my W as she is. Sometimes this is ok, other times I am not satisfied. Some days I try to control or push towards something better. I agree this is trying to change her. In a way, all of the Affair busting that is done is with this goal in mind... because we care about our spouse and want better for them... and for ourselves.

This is why I am still trying to sort this out. Are we better off separated... able to grow individually, or , in time and with patience, is my ability to be strong and stand by the best thing for both of us... to grow in trust and faith in each other and individually. There is no doubt that trust needs to be built. I realize now that it never was there... not trust in you are going to have an A... but trust in being vulnerable with each other, trust that we can say what we think and still be there for each other.

This has improved over the past year, but we are still both holding back... being tentative in our approach. I don't want this, but I recognize that I am equally part of the problem with this. I have been overly sensitive in the past, and although I am much improved, it can still be an issue at times.

I know, logically, that I cannot change my W... but in reality, we try to do this even when we don't intend to. Manipulation tactics become practiced and ingrained and we are not even aware sometimes.I've been working on breaking some of my habits and creating new ones. I still fail and have weak days where I feel I need to be more in control and aren't. Where I feel afraid of the future. But generally get back on track.

What I don't know yet... my main question... will we be better people separate than together?

Shaden

Hi BK... glad you dropped by. Thanks for getting me started on this... I think it will help.



This is my perception and one during a low time. I need to make sure I give the full description over time to really see if this is a negative sich or just the normal ups and downs. You might be right, but I don't want to jump to conclusions too quickly. As I write this journal, I think it will become more clear.



A big part of what I'm trying to figure out. I do realize we won't always run at the same pace... but we both need to be running (or moving forward at some pace). If one of us outdistances the other too far, it will also be a negative in the relationship.


I hope you're wrong. But what you may be correct with is that she may be over OM, but the feelings and needs behind falling for OM are still there and not being addressed... and is ripe to succumb to the addiction again.

Shaden

LG,

time together typically has not been a problem... although quality time might be another story.

After the EA about 6 years ago, my W came to work in my office as my secretary and projects coordinator. We worked together for 3 years. In hindsight, this was probably a mistake. The year following, when she was in a new job (with the jerk... note I wasn't the jerk boss), we still spent a lot of time together. I generally would drive her to work, pick her up, attend my sons hockey games together. We were in a worship team at church together. We would have family night and watch movies together... housework together, etc.. But not a lot of dating or discussing deeper issues.

Now, we are working different shifts since I started my new job a month ago. Finding the 15 hours right now is challenging. When my training is over, though, I should be on days mostly and life will become more normal. We do find time, like this morning we are both off... spent an hour discussing Christmas and other issues. (My parents are coming for Christmas so this will bring in a whole new strain).

I usually spend Christmas Eve with my family (my brother) and Christmas day with her family. This will change and right now, relations are strained with my brother. I recently enforced a boundary with him... he and SIL were friends with OM and OMW. I knew they would continue to be aquaintances, but I expected some loyalty to family. When I found out they spent a week together at a cabin in the summer, I was disappointed. I told my brother that I could no longer discuss personal issues with him. He said he was loyal to me, but his actions spoke differently. They have been cold and distant since.

Shaden

What seems fairly certain to me from reading your story is that you will be better as a person whether you are with your wife or not.

How you will be together . . . well, only time will tell. The kinds of deep-seated psychological problems that may plague your wife can often defy resolution. Still, if anyone can deal with them, it seems as though you have both the patience and the will to do so.

When I read your reasons for staying together, it makes perfect sense to me. Some of those reasons are practical as well as emotional issues.

I have a tendency (and I think you do too) to analyze and over-analyze trying to find answers to questions that may not have answers, or that can only be answered with time.

Thanks, Hiker, for the vote of confidence. Hearing this means a lot.



You're right here... time will tell. One problem with trying to give a picture and receive advice from those who don't know us, is that you are getting snapshots of the person I am describing. A lot of the good that she has done and who she is doesn't necessarily come through. I think what will help is me continuing to develop better communication skills... to let her know what I need and how I feel in a non-threatening way. This is making huge strides, but there are still many times I keep quiet.



One of the main reasons... for the kids. Regardless of anything else, my W is a great Mom. I think we are pretty good parents together and that is important.



Dead on here. My W tells me I analyze too much as well.

Thanks for your comments.

Shaden

This is an important point often overlooked on this forum. We want advice but the information we provide for getting that advice is incomplete in many ways. We don't often convey the good qualities of our wayward spouse's simply because we are overwhelmed with the infidelity. It is, however, implicit that anyone seeking to reconcile with a WS does so primarily because they still love him/her, and that means there must be some good qualities about them that justify loving them.

What makes the advice valuable is the apparent objectivity of those offering it, since they can stand "outside" the relationship and aren't emotionally at risk.

Notice I said "apparent" objectivity. Most of the folks on this forum give advice according to their own experiences, naturally enough, and thus they tend to provide solutions based on what worked or what didn't work for them.

It then becomes a matter of sifting through the advice given to determine what seems applicable to your situation.

* * * *

To me, the decision to try to save the marriage is easy when you have children. Any other course of action seems selfish.

This is also why it is so valuable having a forum with both BS and FWS. If it were not for the input of many FWS on here, I am sure I would have left the R a while ago. Hearing the pain that they go through, in some ways worse than a BS, and looking into how the mindset, the addiction, and the foggy thinking works, gave me strength to continue on.

I saw that this was not just something that a BS has to suffer through alone. I saw that there is very "logical" steps to get to the point of an A, and that it is possible for my W to love me again. I saw that an A does not make my W evil or inhuman... that it is a very human failing that could happen to each one of us.

This helped me in the decision to want to forgive and work towards recovery.

Shaden

showing both sides of the coin yesterday...

Early in the day, I simply asked if "we were ok". She looked at me weird and said "yes". I said "you have been distant lately, I just wanted to know that we are still ok."

Her answer..."I'm busy, tired, and just being myself."

I left it alone and pondered what being herself meant. I wasn't sure I liked what I heard.

But following that, it appeared that she realized something and gave a couple of extra long hugs before I went to work. She also said she appreciated how hard I worked for the family... that it doesn't go unnoticed.
I missed our regular family night last night while working the later shift. She took our sons with friends to a Halloween corn maze. When I got home, the boys were watching the end of an Ernest movie on tv and my W was putting pictures for me to see on the computer of their time out.

We went to bed soon after as she worked early this morning. She went to sleep in my arms.

Little glimpes of frustration and hope.

This is how it has been, and I'm sure how everyone's life is. Soon I need to broach the big R subject and get into a deeper conversation... find out what her/our plan is and what she is willing to do for our future.

Like I said, it has not been bad with my W the last few months... but it wasn't bad before the A. I'm just afraid of mundane, routine life bringing about a sich ripe for another A.

My W recently started a job working in a hospital office. Lots of doctors spending time there. She has always been impressed with this profession and the money attached to it. I have not been focussing on this as I know there is a risk in any job she has... but when I find her distant, my mind starts to wander. I guess the trust bank is still not replenished.

I am starting with IC on Nov. 2... have been waiting since June to get in with this IC... recommended to me by the pastor friend who helped me with exposure.

This might give an easy opportunity to discuss the R once I'm in IC.

Looking forward to any and all comments.

Shaden

I read the following article yesterday...

A Cheating Spouse: History Repeats Itself
Posted by Bob Huizenga on October 21st, 2006

I ran into it again today, in one of my coaching calls.

This phenomenon may seem odd to most. Most never imagine it to be a possibility. But, for someone who has logged more than 30,000 hours of direct counseling, I’ve encountered it over and over again. It does happen and happens often.

The “it” is a person repeating the same actions of his/her parent.

The scenario today was of responsible loving mother/wife doing an about face.

Within a short period of time she developed an intense attraction, almost obsession, with her boss.

It grew into a full blown extramarital affair with her moving out, going on weekend trips with him, dressing provocatively, paying minimal attention to her 5 year old daughter and in essence, orienting her life around this new man.

She raged at her husband, blamed him for the affair and would wait impatiently for her next encounter with the other person.

Her history revealed that her mother exhibited almost exactly the same behavior to her father when she was as little girl - 5 years old!

Coincidence?

I don’t think so. I’ve encountered this behavior far too often to dismiss it.

I believe the pain, guilt, hurt, fear and confusion we experience when traumatized as a child is somehow locked inside a person. We vow (at some level) that it will never happen to us.

However, when the biological child becomes the age of the little girl who suffered the abandonment, all ****** can break loose.

It is a crisis. There is an attempt to “resolve” this pain, but the avenue chosen is often similar to the destructive path taken by one’s parent. There may be good psychological reasons for this, but I don’t want to go there now.

Suffice it to say that the husband suffers in disbelief and confusion. He no longer knows his wife. He receives well intended advice to “move on.” But he can’t.

A part of him knows her pain. This intuitive knowledge holds him to her. He waits, patiently, for her to face her demons, for her to gain the clairity of awareness and internal healing that will free her from the history of her mother.



I guess I am waiting for my W to gain clarity and to face her demons.

Any thoughts???

Shaden

We went to a meeting/concert tonight with the Franklin Graham (Billy's son) Festival. Michael W Smith and Casting Crowns were two of the musical items. It was excellent.

Near the beginning was a taped testimony of a couple who had fought through addictions and infidelity to receive new strength from God to stay together and recover.

We both had some tears on our cheeks during this moment and some of the songs...and my W reached over to hold onto my arm.

this is the first time in a long time that I chose to attend a meeting like this... and it was worth attending.

Shaden

Summary of a discussion this morning with my W...

I started by asking if she is happy.

She answered, "very happy and content". She said "last night was a big deal for me"...(Franklin Graham festival).

I said that I sometimes still feel down and anxious... mostly not always sure where she is at.

I asked about being able to talk occassionally/regularly about our relationship and family. I commented that some will schedule a time. She didn't want time scheduled (nor do I)... and when I said, for example... set aside 2-3 hours next Monday night... her eyes went wide at 2-3 hrs. I said, "maybe that's too much, but it is not just talking about what happened a year ago, but discussing important things in our lives... dreams, finances, the children, spirituality, etc." I told her that I get scared and anxious with routine and mundane life.

She said this is normal... life must have some routine.
Me..."yes, but I need to know that we are progressing as a couple and a family".

She agreed, but didn't want a scheduled talk... I said that I don't know when it is ok to bring it up. I said that I realize that conflict avoidance is an issue I am dealing with... which is why I am discussing this now. It is important that I can discuss these things. I said that I will need to risk bringing up subjects and trust that she will let me know if it is ok or not... and trust that she will allow time for it. She also said I have to trust her to tell me how she's feeling at the time. (she said it is generally not a good idea to bring these topics up during "that time of the month" LOL)

I asked her (finally) if she had ever thought about or figured out why she had an A. She said she hadn't fully, but knows that she just had a void in her life that she tried to fill in the wrong way.

I used the analogy I read from Lizzie's thread, about a thief coming into your house and hurting your family... that you would want to protect your house.

She said that she is sure that she will never put us through this again. I said that I need to do what I can to protect our family. Without knowing why I don't know exactly what to do... and neither does she. That I need to protect our family from being hurt and put on the locks and alarms. She said that she is well alarmed, and that my alarms would wake up the whole city.

She saw OM on her way with her Mom to the festival last night and saw him there at the festival. She said she knows for the first time that she is getting through to the other side. Many times throughout the past year she felt like we would never get over this... when she saw him, she said she didn't feel numb, or angry, or any type of strong emotion. He just raced quickly away when he saw her there. And listening to the message last night from Franklin and the musicians, she felt at peace.

I said that I want, just as much as her, to be able to get past this and not have to bring it up anymore... but that I want to know that we have dug out all of the pain and questions... not just put a bandaid over it. She doesn't feel we are. I said that I feel it is a good thing when we can discuss this or other painful topics openly... to be able to be vulnerable and trust each other. She said she knows this is something she has to work towards, but does feel a softening inside of all her defenses. I said that I have had defenses up to protect myself from being hurt again.

The conversation kind of died as we both got up from the table to get some things done around the house. (I start work this afternoon and she has her long stretch off for 9 days).

We both feel disappointed and sad at the loss of friendships through this... but we realize there are many more people out there to make new friends with.

Overall, I felt good about the conversation. I still see some defensiveness in her eyes when I bring up relationship topics, but it is far softer than it used to be.

I also practiced listening and mirroring skills. I tend to think about what I want to say, rather than being present and listening deeply to what is being said. I did quite well this time.

Shaden

Shaden,
As they say in Boston, where I've been for the past two weeks... "Not for nothing" but Olive used to tell me that she "talked with Mr.BigPants" and described these encounters as uneventful, unemotional, and rather ho hum. I loved hearing this at the time, but since this time, I have discovered that those "ran into moments" were actually MUCH MUCH MORE and that they weren't ho hum... but rather Va Voom. I'm not suggesting that this is what is happening, but I would be weary of Your F?WW's emotional description of an encounter with OM, especially since she hasn't agreed to a REAL RECOVERY PLAN and isn't working hard...
Just my $ .02 worth of caution...
Your Friend,
Heartsore

Shaden:

I think conversation with the W is always good. I do think you need to schedule it. You may not have to put it on her schedule, but if you got one hour set aside, and then you meet with her, and start to have conversation, then the rest is simpler. (Try to make sure that the hour can be open ended. Make sure you or her do not need to go to work, or a kids activity, soon after your hour might be over. This removes pressure from the conversation and allows you to end it in one hour or two hours. She may not need to know that you already scheduled it for yourself. If the meeting are successful, then it is easier to have happen in the future.

I asked her (finally) if she had ever thought about or figured out why she had an A. She said she hadn't fully, but knows that she just had a void in her life that she tried to fill in the wrong way.

This is very good. Means that the fog has started to clear. But, use the "void" to indicate that is what you would like to fill.

Without knowing why I don't know exactly what to do... and neither does she. That I need to protect our family from being hurt and put on the locks and alarms. She said that she is well alarmed, and that my alarms would wake up the whole city.

Well, let her know that you never expect to hear the alarms. Let you in closer so that it is easier to avoid them.

Did she volunteer this information, or did you see the OM and comment:

She saw OM on her way with her Mom to the festival last night and saw him there at the festival. She said she knows for the first time that she is getting through to the other side. Many times throughout the past year she felt like we would never get over this... when she saw him, she said she didn't feel numb, or angry, or any type of strong emotion. He just raced quickly away when he saw her there.

The lack of emotion is good. But means nothing out of context. Him running away is good. Go back to my earlier point about you still being here. Where were you? Does MIL Know the OM?

This is a very good conversation:

not just put a bandaid over it. She doesn't feel we are. I said that I feel it is a good thing when we can discuss this or other painful topics openly... to be able to be vulnerable and trust each other. She said she knows this is something she has to work towards, but does feel a softening inside of all her defenses. I said that I have had defenses up to protect myself from being hurt again.

When you know the walls exist, you can schedule the time to meet and maybe start working on the rest of the defenses.

Good luck!

Hi Shaden,

S0unds like y0u had a very g00d c0nversati0n w/ y0ur W. Since she said she didn't kn0w exactly why the A happened, why n0t ask her why she d0esn't she want t0 find 0ut? Why is she resistent t0 IC 0r MC? What is she afraid 0f?

F0r me, I want t0 turn 0ver every n00k and crannie t0 disc0ver why I made the ch0ices I did.

Did y0u share that article w/ her? I w0nder what she w0uld think 0f it.

~ Marsh

Hey LG,

Thanks for checking in.



Excellent suggestion. Put the discussion in my schedule when I know we'll both be free, but bring it up like it is not scheduled. I'll try it.



wish I had thought of this one before... I'll use it next time I have a chance.


She was saying this more as a joke... but you are right in the fact that we should/will not have to use the alarms.



I was already down at the arena with my sons trying to reserve seats... it was free admission/rush seating. My W was working later and came down with her Mom. I ran into another couple who are/were mutual friends with us and OM. When I called my W to see where she was, I mentioned that I ran into the friends... said they seemed a little awkward (my last conversation with him was asking about his wife making disparaging comments about my W, so there would have been a little tension)... My W offered the info about OM... she said that she figured they were saving seats for their buddies (OM and OMW) as she saw them driving down towards the festival.

My MIL knows OM. My W's stepfather was OM's uncle. My MIL warned OM when I was going to expose to OMW. She felt she was doing the right thing... allowing him to tell his own wife, even though I had already gave him opportunity to do so for 4 months.

I might be naive, but I really do believe my W is out of the fog in regards to OM. After exposure, he made several negative comments about my W and blamed her for the A. (what a schmuck). This hit her like a tonne of bricks and she saw him in a different light.
I have read on here how FWS still have thoughts and feelings of OP occassionally... that this is normal. I've asked my W a couple of times how she feels or if there are times she still thinks of him. She always says that she does not have any positive thoughts or feelings anymore.

If there is still a fog, then I believe it is around the idea of a fantasy relationship... someone else who is capable of fulfilling every need... not necessarily the past OM... she knows now that he is not capable of fulfilling every need. (for one thing, she says the SF was terrible with him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ... and she knows she would never have been happy with him for long)

Since DDay, I have not found my W to lie to me about her feelings. she has told me the truth even if it hurt. If it was an answer that she felt might hurt me or was not ready to answer, she will not give an answer... but as of yet, I have not found any answer to be said just to cover over or make me feel better. At first I didn't like this, but then I realized the benefit of her honesty... and have thanked her several times for this... I believe this acknowledgement has given her strength in telling me the truth. I realize this still is mostly an untested theory, though.

I never saw the OM at the festival, although I was looking through MIL's binoculars to see if he was sitting with the other friends. By the time the meeting was over, I was feeling a little different towards OM... it was hard not to when Franklin Graham was talking about judgement and forgiveness.

I believe the conversations are becoming easier. I was afraid to bring things up because she had said earlier in "recovery" that she was afraid we would never get over this. I guess I wanted to prove that we could by not initiating conversations. I realize this is wrong and I have told her that I want to get over this as much as she, but we need to dig out all of the pain... not just bandaids. I realize that it is necessary for me to risk conversation for us to become more intimate and trusting.

Thanks again LG for your insight and comments.

Shaden

Hi Marsh.

thanks for st0pping by... I've enj0yed reading your advice and c0mments to HS and 0thers.

I think 0ur c0nversati0ns are getting better as I sh0w m0re c0urage in initiating.

I kn0w that I have t0 lead this rec0very. This d0esn't mean that I am always in c0ntr0l 0f the pace... but I see that pr0gress right n0w depends up0n me m0ving f0rward.

I will address s0me 0f y0ur questi0ns at the next 0pp0rtunity.

I've tried typing with a broken "o" to make you feel at home... but it is tooooo frustrating... so enough of that.

As to the article... I haven't shared it yet. This is a sore point... the idea that her choices could be partially a result of her Mom's choices. I think she realizes there is a connection... that she has hidden feelings about her past in connection with her Mom. But it is not one that has been opened up yet.

Her Mom spent years putting behind her the results of her decisions (the church and some family members was very judgemental and slow to forgive... and in some ways, rightly so). Even now, almost 25 years later, she is feeling the sting of her past because of her daughters choices. I think this is one of the consequences of an A and an A marriage... but that is a debate for another day.

My W is very protective of her mother. This is a quality that I both hate and love about my W. I believe she, on some level, is aware of the connection between the past and present, but I'm not sure if it is a conversation that I should initiate... that would bring up defenses very quickly. Possibly there is a way to "accidentally" let her see the article, but if I emailed it to her or showed it to her, then she would assume I am making a point about her Mom. (which I guess I would be in a way... but more so it is about her dealing with her past issues).

There was a time during the 2 months when my life was in limbo... getting the I'm not in love with you anymore speech, but not realizing there was an A going on... that my W and I discussed her past feelings of her Mom. I mentioned this to my Mom, who (apparently) proceeeded to discuss this with MIL when she was visiting. MIL felt my Mom was blaming her for my marriage problems. This didn't go over very well and my W is still a little angry with Mom. Way to many relationship issues. Why can't we just all get along.

I realize my Mom was just relaying what I had told her... and some of it the truth... but it was not her place to say anything to my MIL. She denies she did say anything, but who knows. This is another reason why there will be tension when my parents visit for Christmas.

I don't know if issues between my W and MIL will be opened up properly for a while. My MIL has heart problems... could possibly need open heart surgery soon... we are all tiptoeing around her in fear of making this situation worse. A bit of a catch 22.

Please stop by anytime, Marsh with further suggestions or comments.

Thanks,

Shaden

Hi HS.

in light of your recent events, I'm not sure if you will be dropping in anytime soon. I hope you do, I believe you have a lot to offer me and others even while dealing with your own sich.


I don't believe the same kind of fog is still there with my W, but in light of the fog that surrounds us all, I will take your warnings to heart.

You are correct that we need a recovery plan and I am figuring out now what I believe I need and how to present this to my W. I probably won't come to any conclusions until I begin my own IC in November.

Thanks for adding your comments.

My prayers are still with you.

Shaden