An interesting little sidenote development yesterday.

OM's younger brother was a very good friend of mine and my W. The year or two when my W and I started dating, this friend was with us all the time. He stood in our wedding.

He eventually married as well and became a minister (the last guy expected to do this) and moved away. We've had some contact over the years but grew apart. I emailed him yesterday as I heard he was in town for a couple of weeks and had resigned from his ministry. He was going through a rough time as well. ... another interesting little fact... one visit out to see him, we went for a drive to Niagara falls for something to do... he shared that he was dealing with sexual abuse as a child... this abuse aparently from his uncle (my W's stepfather). This does sound like a soap opera doesn't it?

Anyway, he emailed back last night. He said he knew of my sich since September (they kept it from him for almost a year), and he didn't know how I would respond to him contacting me. He was glad I did... still loved us both... wanted to be there for us, even though it was his brother involved.

My W was very happy to see this... we both miss him being around.

It's funny how things work... I waited a while before beginning to date my W. The reason... this friend also liked her. I was the type that would not hurt my friendships even if it meant me missing out. When I realized my W was not interested in him that way, I talked to my friend and he told me to go ahead and ask her out. The rest is history. (she chose his brother instead <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

As to being in contact with this friend, I am a little unsure. I was upset with my brother for having continued, close contact with OM... this is a similar, but reverse sich. I guess this friend will have to decide his own loyalties... this may also help me to deal with my feelings concerning my brother.

There are other side issues, soap-opera style, concerning this other family, but stories for another day.

Shaden

Shaden:

Wanted to feed your thread a little...

I would like to think about this a little bit, and some FWW may have a better insight, but I was WS, so here goes:



I do not belive that any WS ever stops having thoughts about the OP. I feel that we WS just start seeing OP in the true light without fog. My OW had several good points. But, I can not have access to them anymore and I realize all the bad points she had as well. I was involved for 4.5 years with her. I knew she wasn't as good as BS, but I was not strong enough to walk away from the A. That fantasy that existed during the A is gone. Just as the BS can never look at the WS without being reminded of the A, the thoughts and intensity of it diminish over time. So it is with me in regards to OW. And everyone must address these issues at thier own pace. Asking about them with your W at appopriate times is a good idea.

As for the next quote:



This is great. With this, you can start building that M for the future. As for the "not ready to answer" Do you mean she is still holding back on some things, or she gave you this caution and responded to your question in an open manner? If it is the first, then you need to continue working with her, if it is the second, you are in great shape. Honesty trumps everthing, I believe. With honesty, the true process of bonding between WS and BS has a chance of occuring.

Because of the above quote and this quote seem contradictory, that why I asked the above question:



Now, I would recommend that you write down the 10 or 20 things that you most want to know that you feel you do not have enough information or honesty from your spouse to continue the conversation. Take your time with it. Try not to be judgemental in your questions. Try to view the questions through the prism of the EN's of your spouse. These questions can also address issues in your own M pre A as well. Your pitfalls as well as hers. Rank them in importance, as well as order that you feel they need to be answered. Asking your spouse: WHY? may not illicit much response, but asking "How did OM talk with you?" and then "What amount of time did OM give you?" may start leading you during these conversations to the WHY? and even EN's. Then, I would give the list to W in an envelope, with instructions acknowledging how far she has come, and your need to have the following addressed, but that you feel you have no other questions besides this. Then work a timetable to address the issues, one by one, or two per week, etc, whatever you two can feel comfortable with. That way, W does not feel that she goes thru this list, and then you give her another 20 questions. She needs to feel that if she goes through with this with you that on the other side, you are discussing the future, not the past. And, it does not matter if the two of you talk for a hour about some of the questions, or 5 minutes. As long as you have the answers that you and HER need.

I will address some of the family issues you bring up later, as well as AD use later.
They have a huge bearing on your M, and need addressing.

LG

Maybe next year for the Tigers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hey, LG.

sorry it's taken so long to reply... you have some great thoughts here.



I understand what you are saying here and agree. After exposure happened to OMW, OM said several negative things about my W to OMW... which she relayed to me and I back to my W.

Hearing these things said from OM burst some of the fantasy and I could almost see the fog lift somewhat at that ppint. She saw OM as selfish, cowardly and a liar. This does not mean he doesn't have some of the good points she was attracted to, but she sees him as human... and can see that he is no better than the man she married... in fact, worse, because he betrayed both his wife and her. I can imagine my W still being attracted to the fantasy... which is my biggest concern, but I am not worried about that particular fantasy.

It is possible for it it re-ignite... I've seen evidence of that on this thread. I also heard about my MIL... she and her fantasy OM split up and he blamed her... said nasty things about her. She eventually forgave him and they got back together after she divorced her husband and they married. She told my W this after my W heard these things from OM... I thought "what the he!!"... is she trying to push her daughter into an A?



Near the beginning, it was more of the first. Over the last several months, it's been more like the second. She will answer, now, and with honesty, I believe... but she is still reluctant to enter these conversations. She wants it forgotten... but when we do have the opportunity to talk in this way (without interuption from the kids or her family) then she does answer my questions.

Part of this problem is still my conflict avoidance... I have been careful in what I ask... not wanting to push too much. Sometimes I need to take more risks.



An awesome idea... I will be working on this or a variation of it over the next week.




I'm looking forward to hearing more of what you have to say.

Thanks again, LG.

An update...


I went to my first IC session last week. It went well, but the first session is mostly just trying to cram in history... not getting into much.

He asked for my W to attend.

He said that things will get worse before they get better.

He told me to tell my W that my counselling will be detrimental to our relationship. That I am going to grow, to learn not to avoid conflict, and to become a stronger person. She will find this uncomfortable and may not like every change that will happen.

He said that for our relationship to work, we need to be growing and changing together. That counselling together is the best option.

I relayed this to my W. She asked why she needs to go... and I explained that we need to grow together or that we will grow apart.

I left it for 2 or 3 days and then spoke with her again this morning.

I asked if she gave any more thought to the counselling.

She said that she could not think about it before Christmas. I said, "so I can call him and set up a meeting in January?" She came into the room and said "I have to be honest... I have no interest in going to the counselling. I've tried it already a couple of times and I don't think it helps."

I said... "I need to know that I am progressing and getting past what happened."

Her response... "You need someone to tell you if you are ok or not?"

I said "I've learned through this that how we perceive ourselves is not always accurate. I used to think that I was "all together"... and saw myself to be in good shape (emotionally and mentally... not necessarily physically). I now realize that seeing myself through others perspective has shown me that I have lots to work on."

She said something along the lines of "I don't see it's value and am not interested, but may be willing to go with you if you think it's necessary" and she left the room.


NOW... this was the critical time. She went to work out and I took a shower, and spent some time thinking. At that point, first, I was dwelling on the "I'm not interested" line. I was ready to move my clothes to the basement and say forget it. "I will not live in a marriage that is mediocre or ripe for A's. I will not live in a marriage with a spouse who does not love me or does not want the best possible relationship."

But... quicker than usual... I turned around my thinking. I remembered the rest of what she said..."I'll go with you if it will help".

A little while later, I brought it up again. I said...

"I realize that you have been to two other counsellors and you did not find it helpful. I realize that it is an uncomfortable thing to do. But we ignored it a few years ago and the problems returned... I don't want to ignore it again. I am wanting to improve not just for my marriage but getting past conflict avoidance issues will help me as a manager and leader as well... but most importantly, I want to have the best relationship with you possible. I want us to be best friends and to not be afraid to share how we feel with each other. I also want you to want to have a great relationship as well."

She asked me "You are still afraid to tell me things"

I said "Yes. Even with asking about the counsellor... I am afraid of your reaction and I don't want to be anymore. I want to know that we can argue, disagree, share how we feel and not be worried that it will deeply hurt our relationship."

She said she would be willing... that it is just a time factor. We are busy enough now as it is (and will be busier as she looks for more work). But she also said that if it is important, then we need to find time.

This was the gyst of the conversation... she had to go get ready to take her Mom to a Dr's appt., so it ended soon after. (Again, an interuption from her family...AAGHHH).

But... I went from wanting to run and end the R... to bringing it up again and sharing how I was feeling. I turned from seeing the negative in her answers to some hope... and focusing on that.

It still is not a complete answer... still a delay... but some headway made... mostly with how I responded.

Any thoughts or advice out there?

Shaden

Shaden:

Sounds like your head is getting better with this.

And, your W is in the game. That's a positive.

I do not have long, I have to go, But I will be back in about a week.

Your on my favorites list, so I will get back to you!

LG

Thanks LG... I'll check back in on you later.

I believe that possibly my W is feeling the stress of "taking care of her Mom". She felt like she had to since she was 12 when her Mom divorced. She remembers promising herself that she will always be there for her.

She hasn't had the chance in her life to properly deal with her emotions bottled up concerning her Mom's part in the divorce and keeping it a secret about her true father.

For the past 10 years, since her stepfathers death, she has been taking care of her Mom... through different illnesses (fibro myalgia and heart desease). She has been helping with finances, with support over a legal case that has drawn on for about 7 years, and many other things.

She has two other sisters in the city, but neither are there for her Mom in the same way. One is all or nothing... there every second or gone for months, depending on her own mood and life circumstances. Right now, she is going through a separation and is not there. My W is also supporting her (like going to a lawyer's appt. today with her).

The other sister is too busy and keeps her distance from daily troubles. She's there for the "major events", but stays away. Many times I wished my W would take her example.

Yesterday, my W went with her Mom to an appt about her heart. She spent the afternoon with her. Next week, MIL goes for an angiogram and may need another angioplasty or possibly surgery (this will be her 5th angioplasty). My W feels like she is not getting any help with her Mom and is worried that she won't be able to handle the strain.

She has asked her sisters for help but they feel they are giving all they can. MIL often tells my W how much she appreciates her help and that she is the only one she can count on... more guilt and responsibility.

I've reminded my W that she can't help her Mom if she burns out... she has to take time for herself and say "no" sometimes... but this is tough to do. She would feel even more guilt if something happened and her Mom didn't get the help she needed.

I've asked her how can I help?... what does she need from me? Her answer is just my support and understanding of her time with her Mom.

Last night, the phone rang late (around 10:30 and 11:15) the first was her Mom, the second her sister. She ignored both. She said she had spent time with her Mom all afternoon she's not going to answer again (most calls can last an hour... I don't know how they have so much to talk about all the time... they can spend all day together and still be on the phone for an hour in the evening). She was supposed to help her sister yesterday as well clean her house as she moved this weekend. Her sister didn't call and my W chose not to go as she figured it was mostly finished.

I feel extremely guilty even admitting this, but there are days when I feel our life would be better if MIL's heart did fail. But then I remember how close my W is to her Mom and I know there will be a new bag of problems... Plus, even with all of that time, MIL is very helpful with us... looking after the kids, etc.. And, MIL, despite her faults, is a good, caring person. I just resent all of the time she takes from our family. I sometimes blame MIL partly for my W's A... because of her multiple A's giving history and poor example, because of the stress put on my W from MIL. I know, just like I am not to blame, that neither is MIL... but it's difficult not to feel this sometimes.

I am in a new job which would have more opportunity if I moved... but the one reason we choose not to move right now... you guessed it... my MIL. I realize that this does not have to be my choice, but if I choose to stay with my family and to be supportive and understanding, then I do choose this, atleast temporarily.

I know that my family must come first... and my W commented on this yesterday... but how do you walk away from someone in a sich like this? Her Mom is totally dependent and is not willing to try to learn. I guess if we left, she would be forced to learn... but then the guilt comes. My W feels trapped... and so do I.

Sorry for the long post and ranting.

I am understanding that some of my W's stress and distance is because of this situation... not because of our relationship. I need to look after myself, but being a strong, caring husband is also being supportive throughout this part of our lives together... whether it is a few months or a few years. Her Mom is not very old... early 60s... but she is starting to fail more rapidly the last couple of years.

Shaden

I know the obvious answer is demanding more help from the two sisters...

one... the older one... is dealing with a separation, can be very depressed with rapid mood swings, has a troubled son, etc. etc. etc. She can be very mean with her Mom depending on her mood... oil and water. She didnt' have the same R with her Mom growing up like my W and her twin sister. This sister still does not know that her 2 sisters are really only half sisters... this is another story for another day, though.

the other... the regular story... her and her husband work full time.. 2 teenage kids, one in hockey all over the place, the other is very insecure and depressed. They were living outside the city and driving in every day, but have just moved into the city... this will help a little in the future, but still their attitudes are different. They are always going, and rarely stop to look around at what is going on around them.

They both could help more, but it won't be the same. My W knows, though, that she needs more from them. If MIL does have major surgery, they will have to be there as well for the recuperation.

Shaden

Shaden:

Have you ever had the heart to heart with your spouse about her Mother?

Sometimes, having the discussion, that can last over many months, can lead to you both feeling better about what is happening. Her less trapped, more willing to say no, maybe knowing you and her are approaching this together.

There are others here, I am sure that are facing the responsibility of caring for family members.

I could be the twin sister of your W. My sich is that my brother takes care of my older handicapped brother. Older sister did it for 6-7 years, Older brother doing now for 4-5, my turn is coming....)

As for me, wy wife says that she will divorce me for sure if my younger sister comes to live with us..... And my sister does..

By heart to heart, I mean really, in an openness and honesty enviornment, discuss the issues regarding your MIL and where you and she are going. Let your Wife know where you are, and what you can take. No decisions to be made. But start talking about what-if's. I take it that you MIL doesn't live with you? What-if she had to move in? What-If you had to move her to a nursing home? What-if you did get that great job invite? What-if spouse did?, etc.

So, my spouse and I try to discuss it, and try to investigate options. Very difficult terrain to cover. Many, many landmines. It's been better since we discovered MB. We now know that we can talk so that we can find out where we stand. Couldn't do that much before.

Hey LG,

You have great insights and advice!

~ Marsh

LG... Marsh is right... awesome insight.

I have had several discussions with my W about her Mom... but probably none of them digging deep.

I liked your idea about discussing the "what ifs" that would be a good way to start digging deeper.

Many of our discussions have been about what my W is able to handle, or whether she can get more help from her sisters. They have been about her frustrations with her Mom, or just general discussion about different situations that have come up. But the discussions generally end before we get in deep.

I am wondering if part of my W's reluctance to go to IC or MC is because she knows she might have to face her feelings about her Mom... about the divorce, A's, and dependency. I think she is afraid of this because she doesn't know what her Mom can handle, and because she feels she has to be there for her. If she is struggling with her past, it might create huge difficulty for the future while she is sorting through it. I wonder if she blocks this out so that she can cope while she helps her out.

As to my MIL living with us... she did for about a year... while my W's A was going on. We chose to move and my MIL moved back to an apartment. This was very difficult for both my W and MIL, because MIL loved the suite we had built for her in the basement, and my W felt extra guilty for causing this change because of her A. I guess there has been many consequences she has had to face due to her A... both of us losing/changing jobs, moving, her Mom moving, changing churches... etc.

With all of this, I guess my FWW is doing fairly well considering.

Also, I want it to be made clear that I support and don't mind my W caring for her Mom. It was me who pushed the idea of MIL moving in with us... I felt it was the right thing to do. Now, though, I am torn between this necessity in our lives, and the need for our primary focus to be on us. I realize that recovery cannot be a full time job, in that life around us still goes on, but if we don't dig out the wounds now, they may never fully be healed.

I guess I have a little resentment in the role MIL played in my W's history, during the time of the A and her actions following, and now, creating a huge diversion from our focus on recovery.

Maybe I am being selfish.

But I will continue to discuss these issues with my W.

It is difficult getting time... if it was up to me, I would be spending a couple of hours every night until I felt we were comfortable in our recovery. I like to talk through issues. My W would rather ignore it if it is uncomfortable.

Thanks for the responses...keep them coming.

Shaden

Nope, not at all.

My DH had a tough time w/ my moving my dad into our home for 8 months while he went through Chemo treatments.

I'd NEVER seen my DH behave so stressed out before. He is a very even keeled guy. We discussed all of this prior to moving my dad in w/ us, but what I realized rather quickly, was that he agreed to it...reluctantly!

He thought if he said no he was being selfish.

I wished he had opened up before hand and we could have spared ourselves so much stress.

I didn't think he was selfish to think, "We have enough on our plate right now." And I don't think it's selfish for you to want MORE time w/ your W.

~ Marsh

Thanks, Marsh for your input.

Right now I seem to have gone backwards in that my shift in thinking (about continuing to fight for the marriage) is changing on a daily basis. I had this up to lasting 2 to 3 weeks before hitting a rough spot, but it's gone backwards. The negative emotions are not as strong as earlier in this drama, but still swaying back and forth.

I tend to over analyze things. I think that part of my reasons for "wanting" my MIL to live with us was my "nice guy" attitude. I figured I would look good in everone's eyes by being the great SIL. This wasn't a conscious thing that I thought about, but thinking back, I believe it was a benefit or reaction that I expected... at least partially.

Having MIL with us left me even more of a conflict avoider... it's tough to assert your point of view with your W when her Mom is hanging around 24-7.

It was also a huge strain on my W and her identity as she constantly felt "mothered", "babied", "outdone"... she couldn't be the Mom or the Woman of the house. These were just two of the many factors I've added to my list of how my W came to the point of her A.

Shaden

I find that I am losing "love" for my W very quickly these days. I never felt "out of love" as Dday hit or suffering through the aftermath of the A... but now it is happening.

Yesterday, I tried a different idea. As money and time was tight right now, and she felt very uncomfortable with the idea of a counsellor at this point, then I proposed that we spend time once a week reading and discussing a marriage/devotional book that I have... I think by Gary Smalley.

Her answer was what I predicted... I will consider it. I have learned from her past behavior that this is just a stall tactic instead of saying "no" straight out.

I became frustrated, used a few DJ's... tried to explain how I felt and in the process tried to "change her mind". My reasoning was all very logical (as usual ), but I re-read last night what a DJ was... and that is exactly what I did.

In the course of this conversation many things were said... from the heart... eg. I said that I will not stay in a mediocre marriage. She asked what did I mean... I said that I don't know what the outcome will be yet, but I will not stand for a marriage that is without love and not moving forward.

She said... "I didn't say that I would never do this... I need time and baby steps". My response... We need to start somewhere. You don't just wake up and decide you want a degree today... you work towards it. You don't just decide you want your kids to be successful, you need to teach them and work with them over time. You don't just decide that you are going to retire and wonder where the money is, you need to plan over time. It is the same with building a great marriage. We need to work at it starting now. Otherwise, we will be in the same place 5 years from now and 10 years from now... needing more time.

She made a comment about why things need to change... what is wrong with our marriage now? I said, the day to day life is very good... but I thought it was very good a couple of years ago and look what happened to us. Her response..."see, you keep bringing that up and throwing it in my face" "You think because I made one mistake that I will do it again". I said, "actually this has happened three times, and I am doing whatever I can to protect us from this happening again. If we stay where we are right now, then I believe there is a good chance that it will happen again."

This morning I said that what I felt yesterday was true, but I still need to learn to communicate it better. How I said it was called a Disrespectful Judgement and is one of the worst forms of communication. She just shrugged and left the room.

My problem throughout life was finding it difficult to make decisions... to choose sides. I see that our M is not moving forward and needs to be shaken up if there is to be a chance. My W needs to learn the consequences of her actions. I observe her behaviour to still feel entitled... she is sorry but not remorseful. She is finished with the last A because he broke it off and said nasty things about her, but she is not finished with the fantasy of a better life.

I said to her that you have lost your dreams... that you now just believe this is the best that life can give and aren't willing to make changes... she agreed.

But on the other hand, I keep seeing the message to have patience and faith in God. He will fix this in his time. My Wife will love me for my perserverence and steadfastness.

I guess either way can work... I just need to decide one or the other. Earlier, I did decide I would work to be patient and stay... I said I would go 2 years and see where we are at. I should keep to this plan... but my love for her is being drained.

Shaden

I also stay for the kids.

I think I will decide on a time this week and let her know when I will be reading/studying this devotional book. She is welcome to join me... I will do that for 3 or 4 weeks and see what happens.

In the meantime, I will make another appt for IC. If she is not going to move forward with me, I will continue to move forward myself, even if it means the deterioration of the relationship.

Shaden

Shaden:

Low spot this week, Huh?

Your right, she needs to move. So start moving. Lead the way. Pat the seat next to you and ask her to sit down.

You can get through this as well.

You said the right things, Sometimes the DJ and LB can come into play. Need to watch that. But you have stated that other aspects of your life are out of kilter as well.


((Shaden))

Hang in there buddy...

I had a bad one last night too..

Yep. Probably seeing how HS's sich has turned has severed some of the strands of hope that I was hanging onto. I'll get them re-attached in short order.

My W did come and give me a long hug a while later, this morning... but I feel like she is throwing me a bone so I'll be ok and not rock the boat anymore today. Maybe she has thought about things and feels badly, but creating change is a whole different story.

I agree with you about "leading the change" and that is what I will do.

Sorry to hear your night was low as well. Care to share???

Shaden

Shaden:

I posted this to someone else, but I can expand:

In regards to recovery and triggers:



Things had been good. But sometimes we just do not know where it is going to come from.

Hardly ever used the house phone to call. Used the Cell phone. And if I had called, I would have made sure the phone was back in its original spot, dialed another # so she couldn't redial the last #, etc. But, you know what? That's the WS thinking.

I was accused of doing something that I used to do all the time before. And now that I am not, I have no defenses. If she wants to look, I am an open book. Even when I am innocent, I am the object of her insecurities until she feels otherwise. There is not a real way out until she is comfortable. I did this. Anything else besides an A, she would not have to be the spy.

And it was a good day, took care of kid, good report card, did my scullery duties in kitchen while she baked various things for Saturday's thing we are doing, watched movie on Couch with her and son, spent Undivided Attention in morning and at lunch <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> (its great being self-employed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
expecting more U/D A that night and then Boom! She triggers because of the phone.

Been a really good week, as well.

Just how it goes some time.

HS thread does seem to have taken a turn for the worst. Do not let it get you down. He's a buddy, but he also needs to be quiet here now, because it can and will be used against him in the court of law. Back in Aug, Sep and even Oct, it was all out there on the sleeve. Not any longer.

Have you ever sent him a personal E-mail? You may get more scoop that way as to what is really happening.

Back to Shaden.

Is your W "throwing you a bone"? A nice long hug with some feeling? How long has it been? And why would you consider it throwing a bone? If it has been awile, say thank you and just enjoy the moment. (Make sure it is a real moment, us WS can really act sometimes...)

You deserve to be in more than a mediocre marriage. Dang, we all do. But we all have to put in the effort to get there.

There is a quote:

"Be kind, because everyone is fighting a great struggle"

In spite of the above circumstances that you have described, your spouse if fighting many demons. And needs alot of support.

Admiration must be big for her. What have you done today? Did you thank her for the Hug? What else did she do today?

As Marsh noted, (I think) her H wasn't happy with FIL moving in, but agreed anyway. To get along. Creates the most stress! So thats where O&H comes from. Been a long trip, but I think my W and I have seen it.

Hey, LG.

I completely understand how the phone could throw off the night for both of you.

For you, the feeling is that this will always be there between you... even a phone lying out of place ruins a good day. I can't speak for your W, but from my perspective, I want the matter of the A behind us just as much as my W does. I hate triggers, I hate the wondering, and the memories. I'm sure your W does as well. She probably just wants you to understand what these memories and triggers mean and reach out to her... exactly like you did.

I don't condemn anyone who has an A... life is a struggle and we all make mistakes. But you seem to get it. Your thoughts and advice here are to the point and real. You know the mistake you have made and seem to be doing everything to move forward from it. Patience and time is all you need.

Your W probably was feeling like it was a good day as well... I am guessing that she is more angry at the fact that the memory and triggers won't go away easily, then mad at you. Yeah, she's angry that your actions were the cause of these triggers, but just wants you to react appropriately to her now. As a BS, we cannot let this go on indefinately, but right now, what is important is to see what is real inside of you. When my W reaches out and holds my hand when I trigger... I get a glimpse of her true feelings.

I don't have a lot of triggers or atleast I don't let them ruin my day often... I made a point early on that I was not going to be controlled by signs... but I still do not have control yet over the fact that thoughts come to me about the A. I hate that I have to think about it. But generally I push the thoughts away.

Sometimes I wonder if I am doing the right thing. (Most of the time) I don't want to "punish" my W for what she did to our family... but I also want to make sure she knows and feels the full consequences so this does not happen again and that she can grow stronger herself.

I heard a message this morning at Church about God's Love. God chooses to love us patiently and without demands because he wants us to choose to love him in return.

I am bypassing this step... trying to force my W to love me in the way that I want her to love me. Is this the kind of love we are to have? Again, I return to the word that has kept me grounded and given me strength through this time... patience.

After church I again apologized for trying to change her. I said that I still feel the way I did/do, but I cannot force her to change. She thanked me and hugged me... she said she did read what I had printed out about DJ's. Wondered if I left it around on purpose for her to see... which, this time, was not the case... I put it with my papers for me to re-read.

I also told her that I would be continuing on with devotional time and she is welcome to join me if she wants. As well, I will be continuing with IC and she is welcome to come with me. She didn't committ to either, but seemed pleased with both decisions.

Part of me would like to go the "tough love" route and just separate... see what happens. But I don't think it would end up as well for either of us. I believe I was meant to learn patience and continue to love my W. It may not end up well, but I am growing through it.

It is ironic that one day early after DDay, I was riding my bike and rode past a church sign with a quote about patience. It was at that time that I was seeing that word everywhere and decided it was what I needed to learn. Now, a year and a half later, my W has chosen a new church for us to try out... it is the same church I had seen the message printed.

As to my W throwing me a bone... I was just reacting to my feelings at the time. She does hug me regularly... that affection is there. I'm on the way back up... hopefully with some strength to stay up for a while.

You are right... my W is fighting many demons... and she is not moving at the same pace I am... but she is probably moving.

Thanks for being here LG... your advice to myself, HS, and many others is excellent. Heartfelt, honest, and wise.

Shaden

I had a vision today of the kind of "leading" I've been doing for my W and my family.

I've been the kind of leader who takes a step out and then looks around to see who's following. If no one is (in particular, my W)then I quickly jump back into safety and try and bring her along with me or change her mind.

This isn't leading.

I need to set my sights on goals and move towards them. My W will follow, join me, or stay behind. What do I have to lose?

I believe she is looking for leadership... respects it.

I look back to the type of person I was as a teenager when she fell in love with me.

I was still shy and quiet, but I was doing a lot more leading. I was about the busiest a teenager could be between music, sports, working, school, church activities and friends. I was moving forward and successful in all of these areas. I was respected by my peers and adults. I generally took on leadership roles or they found me. My W was smitten by me back then. I was not waiting at her feet. It took me about 4 years before I actually started dating her... four years of her wishing I would.

I was leading and living my life. She loved me then. This does not change the decisions she made... and they were made irregardless of who I was (proof being she had ONS when we were engaged, long before we had time to grow apart). But she respected me and was in love with me.

No more looking over my shoulder. I will still stretch my hand back for her to hold on and to support her when she needs it, but I will move forward.

Shaden