Hey Shaden,

I agree w/ your decision to move forward. I never agreed w/ your IC when he told you it wouldn't be good if you grew alone. The thing is, if you are growing, your W will too. As you change she will change as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have you ever read any of LovingAnyway's posts?

I'm not sure why, but I think you might benefit from reading this thread....

THE LONG STRETCH <------ Click there.

...if you haven't already. I know you and Cor are in two different situations, but there are things being discussed on it between he and LA that I thought might speak to you.


~ Marsh

Shaden:

Marvelous post about leading.

THAT is amazing self-awareness.

There was a post from Oswald: "Who are you People?" An MB'er in recovery after 6 years.

His 2 years out in Recovery Link: www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=008070#000000

His 4 years out in recovery link: www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=015490;p=1#000000

If the links do not work, please adjust the antennas.... Sorry...

If the links above do not work, go to the search box and type in username oswald. and about six months. You can find it from there.

Just reading them gives me hope for the future.

His note about some marital problems just being martial problems and not having anything to do with the A hit home.

Be back to ya soon!

Thanks Marsh and LG for sending the links. I've read through them and will re-read them again on the weekend.

When I have a plan for my life, generally I am much more at ease. Today was a better day.

I know I will go through more mini-crises but looking back on my words here and the advice given me will help to bring me back.

I do second guess what is best for our marriage and us individually. It is not that I want to give up on the marriage... I just sometimes wonder if I am enabling... and if a tougher stance is not required. I don't want to go another year or two and then find out that all along I shouldn't have shielded my W so much, or should have done something different. And then I read posts like what was sent and I realize that patience, and growing myself are the right answers. There isn't a magic, one way to recovery. My problem is waffling back and forth. I have to choose one and be consistent.

thanks,

Shaden

In reading on other threads, a message has been ringing in my mind about not being afraid of insisting on recovery.

When the next time I bring up the Recovery subject and my W throws the "you are throwing it in my face" again line, is there any advice for good responses? I want to avoid getting angry which is my initial reaction... but as I don't want to LB, I bite my lip and say nothing. I want some prepared responses without angry LBs.

I still slide back and forth over figuring out if I am being a doormat or patient. I think it is more to do with my own expectations and reactions. If I choose patience because I want to and it feels right, then I'm not being a doormat... but if I choose avoidance because I am afraid, then this is a full-fledged mud mat.

Patience vs. avoidance... they may have similar responses but completely different intentions and meanings... but then I read about intentions not meaning anything... behaviors do.

So, even if I'm patient and not avoidant, am I still enabling? I guess I am if the patience never turns to action. Even patience needs a plan... I will be patient until "X" or as long as "Y" is happening, then patience is ok.

My W feels she is moving forward at her pace... how can I judge that... I can't. All I can do is decide what I will accept and live my life.


Last night I went to a friend's house for a poker night... the first time I have ever done that. It was questionable if I was going because MIL was at the hospital for an angiogram during the day... she might have gone in for plasty or surgery depending on the results. Luckily, neither were required at this time. My W didn't really say anything about me going, but seemed a little surprised. I couldn't read her if she was happy or upset that I would go. She said it was fine with her and seemed pleased that I would condition it on the health of her Mom.

This friend is planning on making the night a regular night.

I also booked another IC appt... and added it to our calendar. My W asked me what it was this morning... I told her and she didn't comment. I should have taken the opportunity to invite her again, but I also don't want to sound desperate. It's time for her to start to take some steps on her own.

My life will move forward one way or another.

Shaden,

Right about hijacking Heartsores thread.

Just some thoughts. I have read your log and believe you to be a very thoughtful caring individual. Your WS seems to still going through some kind of fog, Grief, Remorse or a combination of the two. Or possibly she has just gone underground then all bets are off until that is resolved.

If it still just the grief and or remorse. Then show her how you feel and what it is you want for the two of you. I feel that you need to take the lead and show her a better way. By being the positive, attentive, loving, caring person you were when you fell in love the first time.

It will take time and lots of hard work yes and patience, which is where I have the problem I always want it to happen now. In time she should begin to see that you really still want her and are very much in love with her. Show her that life must move on and not be stagnant and that you want her there with you every step of the way!!!!!

Be positive and be a gentle caring leader in your M.

"JustKeepGoin" has just become my life's new motto and I think it is so appropriate to us all. Or maybe in this case it should be "JustGetGoin" OUCH!!! Sorry!

Or you can just ignor this as the ramblings of an Old Goat that should mind his own business. I'll certainly understand and not bother you with it again.

JustKeepGoing... definitely you have some wisdom and advice worth hearing.... so "bothering" me is just fine.

Some more thoughts on boundaries. I only have a couple minutes before I have to leave for work, so hopefully this will come out right.

One problem with the forum is getting/giving advice without knowing all of the facts.

My W did respond to boundaries about IC and MC. She went to an IC at my request during her A (I didn't realize the A was happening at the time) and we went to MC/IC following NC after DDay.

Both times were not positive experiences for her... meaning they did not give her the answers or direction she needed. The MC was not particularly helpful for me as well, especially in regards to sharing info... she backed my W in the fact that she did not have to answer any of my questions. I understand where the MC was coming from at the time... my W was not committed to the marriage at the time, but it still hurt our growth.

Now fast forward. MC is not my goal... having the best relationship possible is one of my goals. I need to find out if that is also my W's goal. Because of our experiences, her perception is that MC does not help our goal to have the best marriage possible. It is just something I want to do and possibly seen as controlling.

We "know" on the forum that MC is beneficial, as long as we get a good MC... and we also know many counsellors can have a negative affect.

To set the boundary, "we need to go to MC" is not necessarily a positive boundary. Possibly, it should be "We need to have a fulfilling, growing marriage and finding ways to assist us in this goal is necessary" These ways might include MC, seminars, devotions, reading... whatever... and we need to jointly decide on how the help can be received... but the boundary is based upon the goal.

If a CEO set policies and procedures (boundaries) without tying it to the vision and without receiving "buy-in" from key people, then the boundaries will fail.

Right now the idea of MC is not seen as a positive for the marriage and if I attend IC and show real improvements and changes, then MC might be seen as positive in the future.

To just insist upon MC without any reason to back up its value, would be a DJ.

Does this explain it any better?

Right now, I will investigate my question..."do you want the best possible marriage and family that we can achieve?" and then figure out ways to get there.

If her answer is "No"... she is just here for the kids or whatever other reason... then I will have some decisions to make on my own.

I beleive my W thinks she is moving forward. She thinks that she is sorry and remorseful and would never repeat her mistake. She is fearful that I am not ever going to get past this.

Yes, these may be some signs of fog and avoidance of consequences, but the important question is whether or not we are moving forward... at whatever pace we can both handle.

I also believe she has some real fears of looking deep... not because of me, but because of her past and what she will discover about herself and her feelings for people like her Mother. She does not want to hurt anyone else and is reluctant to go there. This is a wall we need to get past for growth, but that is also where faith and patience come into play.

I cannot force her over this wall... I can lead and support. She has to take the leap herself.

But is there anything else I can do except wait???

Shaden

Shaden:

You asked about the "Recovery" discussion and how to deal with: "you are throwing it in my face"

She has had how many EA's/PA's?

My spouse and I discuss our M now. Sometimes she even brings up aspects about the A that are hurtful to me. For example, she told me yesterday, that if OW had not called her I would have never revealed. She is probably right, and that stings.

But I have thought about this a little more. I want to stop the "what-ifs." They can be very destructive. "What-if" OW hadn't called. "What-if" BS had shown some backbone in the past and just divorced me? See where it can lead? I have to change that enviornment.

Your response should be the same. "If we remain the same, then we go nowhere." "Don't you want a better relationship?" "Who has been here the longest?" "Who has had more reasons to leave you than to stay in the past, yet I continue to stay." "But I will not stay put." Recovery is not a process of beating up either spouse. It is a process of eventually learning the changes needed to build a stronger M. For both partners.

Discovering EN's is one part. Working to address a Spouses EN's is another. And not accepting lukewarm responses is another. And Accepting that progress in measured in inches, not in miles. (Ok, kilometers...LOL)

It's that patience thing again, isn't it?

But, your leadership is also about setting some goals. And then working to acheive them. And having a reasonable timeline about them. This isn't about making the sales goal of the company, its about growing and learning with your spouse. So, start doing the things for yourself that you feel need to be done, and extend a hand to let her follow. She will come.

And if she doesn't. It doesn't matter.

As for poker night, leave your antenna up. Really judge her reactions. It could be interesting. And remember, most of the "other guys" there do not have any knowledge of Dr. Harley and Undivided Attention. They may be using it as an escape. Watch out.

LG

Shaden,

Another thought. MC may or may not provide the help you need. That is up to you and your wife and the MC and whether they really are working in the best interests of the M. Certainly not the case for me. I trust my instincts and open communication. There is the key, open communication. If there is open and honest communication you can continue to work through your issues and resolve them. Or at least find a way to cope with them for now until you find a solution down the road.

Just need to figure out a way to get the dialog moving and keep it positive without condemnation, anger or resentment.

Shaden:

Just read your insightful comments on HS thread. I read here first and did not get the HS threadjack comment. Thought it refered to your original reason to create this log. Boy, was I wrong!

And welcome to MB, JKG!

You do not feel that Mrs Shaden is progressing, although she feels that she is. Have you ever asked her what her personal growth goals are? What has she acheived since Dday on these goals? After asking, and giving her some time to respond coherently, How do they align with yours?

What is her definition of a "great" marriage? What is yours? I think Oswald pretty much put the reality of that picture together.

SO I will go back to something you posted on HS thread:



Guess what. It's both. You have to synthisize both of these together. You and I always keep track of wrongs. Those are tracked by the Love Bank and Resentment. If your neighbor does something wrong to you and you are annoyed, he has made the proverbial Love Bank withdrawal and you do not have to deal with him. But in a M, you have to suck it up, you sense the LB withdrawal and build a little more resentment. You can only get rid of resentment by truly forgiving the other for the trespass against you, or by negotiating it with the other party and making it disappear.

Example:

Fourteen years ago, my pregnant DW, and I are attending birthing classes, with 5-6 other couples. I can see in some of the other guys eyes the same fear that I am feeling. "Responsibility! Will I do OK? Can I measure up as a Dad? etc." And I like to reduce tension by making a joke or adding levity to the situation. Usually works, this time it didn't. In response to the instuctor's questions as to why I am here? "Because she made me come" OUCH! That one just tore DW up. Major Love Bank withdrawals with that one. And to me it was just a joke. I really was there because I wanted to be, and to help. DW harbored much resentment about this comment and would bring it up in any serious argument. It was one of the mandatory "shut down" lines for me. That was my response, I would shut down and no further communication occurs.

So, After dday, and we learn alot more about discussing issues, this one finally comes back up. Instead of running away, I finaly start telling her what was going on for me. And what I really intended. And that I had tried hard in the classes and done well at the birth, but through the lenses of where she was and I was at that time, how inconsiderate that remark really was.

So, now she understands better and has forgiven me. I apoligized. Had done it a hundred times before, but this is the first time she felt that the apology meant something. Says she will not bring it up in the future.

How does this apply?

With greater knowledge, I can address what went wrong here.

I was kicking her Domestic Support needs when it was the most important. And it fed her notion that I was only concerned about me, and I was not participating fully.

And she would get to kick my Admiration needs. "Look how lousy I am as a father"

Took 13 years and an A to get there. Pretty tough way to learn.

And I wanted to address this:



Your W enjoying giving you a back massage? I know about this. Wish my spouse would do it more. But its my fault. I do not ask for it. And when I do get one, I treat it sort of like a "mercy back rub" Thanks, but DW really didn't want to do that, and I get little stress relief from it.

All my fault. My spouse loves when I rub her feet and back. I even buy the lotions, oils etc. I enjoy doing it for her. But I never respect the job she does. I need to give her that.

So, this gives you someplace to start. Try giving a little here. Do not expect SF afterwards, (although it does happen often!) Just give her a rub down from toe to head. And ask for one in return. This is an excellent Undivided Attention activity. And it goes to many emotional needs.

As for practicing, my DW loves to bake stuff, but it was always for something else, church, school, a lunch, etc., the stuff was going out the door. Nothing ever left over. I even commented on this. "None for me?" Now she makes extra, if possible, or saves a few off the plate that she is taking to whereever. She cares now, And she wants to...

Shaden ~

Never met ya before, but just browsing through your sitch now...so sorry you are going through this. It sucks big time, and you feel so alone. Just had to comment on this one comment you made:


See, the thing is, you WILL be ok, with OR without your WW. YOU WILL. And one of these days, it's gonna hit you, and hit you HARD ~ I know it did me (you can check out some of my stuff over on the Recovery board, or better yet, shoot me an email to marriedforever2006@yahoo.com and I'll go into better detail)....

And I know it's hard to believe right now, but your WW is really playing Russian Roulette with your relationship ~ see, what they don't know is that we can only take so much; being a BS is THE most painful experience anyone can go through, and eventually we get to the place where we've had enough; we can't take it anymore, and man, do we get PISSED. I'm there.

This is what finally kicked my FWH's butt into gear...I was DONE Plan A'ing him, and I was just angry. Full on, outrightly pissed. And the lame thing is, that even though he's "come around" now, that anger isn't just disappearing. This had gone on too long, and it's pretty deep. It's gotten better, for sure, but still there. Thank God he GETS IT now and is working pretty hard to fix things. It's about time, because I was done, done, DONE with him and his cr**. See here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

And about the Boundaries thing : I'm just starting to "get that" now (in fact, I have a whole thread about it, here it is if you're interested: (pretty different than your sitch, but for me, it was just understanding HOW to enforce those boundaries rather than how to establish them that was hard for me). Myschae, LA and noodle and were AWESOME in spelling it out for me. CV and 10Swords were incredible in explaining to MFsFWH (he's posting here now too!!) how I'm feeling and the intensity of my pain.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...0&fpart=all

Anyways, just wanted to give you a little encouragement. You're gonna be ok either way...guaranteed.

Good luck, my friend.

~MF

Hey Shaden,



Repeat it back to her.

Say, "I'm sorry that you feel as though I'm throwing this in your face, but I can assure you that I don't bring this subject up b/c I want to hurt you." "In fact, this type of misunderstanding is an example of one of the things I'd like to work on w/ you."

Shaden, I don't think it's possible for R to just stand still. They are either moving forward or they are moving backwards.

Which way is yours going?

Maybe answering THAT question will help you decide what you need to do.

Maybe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

Shaden,

Just a thought about an exercise to try. Might be a starting point. OR NOT!

Can you express what it is you feel is missing in your M for you? In a way that is not condemning, sarcastic, or hurtful!!!!!

Can you then express how you would work on your part to make that happen in your M.

Can you express what it you think is missing in your M from your wife's point of view? In a way that is not condemning, sarcastic, or hurtful!!!!!

Can you then express how you would work on your part to make that happen in your M. (remember you are her)

Look it over carefully!!!!! You may get new perspectives on the situation especially if you can be really honest from her point of view.


Then do the same thing about all the good points in your M. The real reasons you are together in the first place from both perspectives. Remember to add all little nothings that go into the M (these are all the really important little things that make up everyday life and we tend to overlook them). Lots and lots of little nothings add up to a big healthy M over time. There should be a good many after this many years together!!!!!

Then express how you feel that all those good points, big and small, make your M better and better day-by-day.

A fighter pilot once said, "Being in combat is hours and hours of boredom sprinkled with seconds of stark terror". Bad analogy, but applies in the sense that M is lots of everyday humdrum sprinkled with moments of connection that make it all worthwhile. It is not Fireworks all the time. True, there needs to be closeness and intimacy but the fireworks and earth shaking won’t always be there every time. If it were that too would become mundane and boring.

I think we tend to get so wrapped up in wanting all the fireworks and heightened emotions that we overlook all the good points of everyday life and become disheartened because it is not the fantasy that we dreamed it would be. It is real life!!!!!!!

Darn! I wish I had thought of that 30 years ago!!

You may or may not want to share it with your wife but it's a thought.


Oh BTW; What’s the difference between and Lawnmower and a Saxophone?
You can tune a Lawnmower!!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Shaden:

Don't allow to much heat over the Saxophone....

After the guitar, I think it can be the best chick magnet out there...

Worked once, didn't it?

LG

A lot of good stuff here for me to absorb.

JKG, I have done lists before... pros and cons, etc. But you have added a whole new level here with your ideas. I had not thought of the list from my W's perspective, and the detail you describe is beyond what I"ve done. I'm eager to find time to do this.

I will respond back to the rest later...hopefully tonight.

BTW, LG... I didn't play the sax, I just enjoy the sound. My W used to love watching my lips pucker and the dimples formed for the trumpet, though, and loved to watch my fingers play on the keyboard. I don't do either of them enough anymore.

Shaden

Here's a response to try on:

softly take her hand & place it over your heart

say:

"I am not throwing things. I am opening myself up to you in the most vulnerable and intimate way. I am asking you to help me with this hurt. I am asking you to lay hands on my heart and speak to me from your heart."

Pep

Shaden,

Hope my list idea is helpful.

-----------------------

Pepperband,

Nice thought! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
------------------------

Hey Shaden,

Here's one your son, the saxophone player, can appreciate.

What's the difference between an Oboe and a Bassoon?

The Bassoon burns longer.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LG..

you're right about the "what-if" questions. I do have them.

1st A - ONS when we were engaged about 16 yrs ago. I found out a year ago after I exposed to OMW following PA. I have lots of "what ifs". 2 big ones... What if she told me before we were married? and "what if" she had not revealed this info to OM... she would probably have not confessed to me. She told me as if she were trying to be truthful, but I have figured that she heard that OM was saying things to his W about her and OMW was telling me... She had told OM about ONS, when he was questioning if she had ever been with anyone else besides me. I figure that she would not have told me if she were not afraid I would find out from OMW. No, I haven't asked her... we have barely spoken about ONS. She said she was over it and practically forgot about it years ago. I put it on the back shelf for now... but it is starting to get pushed to the forefront... especially now that I am questioning what type of person my W is.

2nd A... EA. I figure that this was ended because he left town. OM was in for a work project for a couple of months. The most that happened, that I know of, is that he kissed her goodbye. She says nothing happened and it would not have happened. I think it would have if he stayed longer. my "what if".

3rd A... OM broke it off 2 weeks after I discovered it. They both told me they would end it immediately but continued to contact in private for a couple of weeks. I found a letter from him telling her it was over. My "what if"... I think it's obvious.

In all 3 situations, her coming back to me or being "honest" with me comes with a whole lot of questions.

Right now, even though every day life is good, I am feeling very unsettled and unsafe in this marriage.

Shaden

I have been accepting lukewarm responses.

I have been patient and most days that is why I am still here... measuring in KMs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm working on the goals right now. My problem... I know that I am still not sttong enough when my reactions are extreme... either I am "in love" feeling the rush of my addiction to her... or I am distant and aloof... no in between most times except for when my focus is elsewhere like on work. Today I was very distant. She didn't say anything but this is the type of response that probably scares her and keeps her from giving 100%.

I heard recently that the opposite of love is indifference... I feel I am headed this way... and I don't like it.

Shaden

JustKeepGoing, you said...



I agree... the communication is not happening enough. My challenge...

When communication does happen, it feels good and most times ends positively... but my W is reluctant to discuss deep issues and never brings them up herself. She does not want to have to deal with this the rest of her life... yeah, I know the usual answers here, but...

I also don't want to deal with this constantly. I don't want our times spent together without distractions to be something she fears because I am going to bring up a deep conversation. (This bothers me that she fears it because I enjoy these talks). I want there to be fun times and normal times together, but it doesn't leave very many times alone for deeper talk. The result... I am left to ponder and think on my own, which brings about frustration, resentment, and indifference.

I probably need to force communication more... because if I don't, there won't be any fun times in the future anyway.

Thanks for your input. I find it amazing how you have seemed to have gotten through this so well all these years basically on your own. Way to go.

Shaden

LG said...



unfortunately, my W does not like to think in "goals" at this time. She wants to just get through the day and has said that several times. She was struggling internally... keeping alot of it to herself, but since going on AD's recently, she says she is coping better each day. I guess learning to get through the day is a goal... and getting on AD's was a solution. If I can explain that to her, maybe she will discuss the next one with me.

Shaden