My WH and I got into a pretty long discussion recently, and one of the big things we talked about was if real recovery is even possible.

We have a mutual friend whose H was a serial cheater. They are still together, but she could spit further than she trusts him. She monitors phone calls, checks his dirty clothes, questions him all the time, keeps him on an incredibly short leash and always suspects that he's cheating again. And she's lived like that for years.

I don't want to live like that, and neither does my H. I don't think a marriage like that is worth saving. There's all kinds of information here about how to spy on your spouse. I just don't want to always be doing that.

So my question is (and I intend to show the responses to my H, so please, be brutally honest): do you ever, truly learn to trust each other again?

As a FBS .... do you ever, honestly, get the nagging questions out of the back of your mind ...... "Is my spouse really where they say they are?" ....... "he's running late, do I believe his excuse?" ....... "Is OP going to pop back up and haunt us for life?" ........ "Is spouse going to get too friendly with another OP?" ..... "What's to keep us from going down this road again next year, 5 years, 10 years, whenever?" ????? Do you ever honestly totally trust the FWS again? Do you ever get back the admiration and star-struck kind of feeling, or is the stain always there? Do you feel like you "settled" for a less-than-great marriage, just to keep it intact? Do you bristle and get your guard up every time your FWS comes anywhere near, or mentions, someone of the opposite sex?

And FWS's .... How do you feel? Do you feel like you're being punished, and serving pennance for the rest of your life? Do you feel controlled, suffocated, or resentful of always having to account for your time? Do you ever feel like your FBS really truly does trust you? Do you ever get to the point where you really feel comfortable telling your spouse everything, or do you always worry about what you say, and how they will react?


I really would like totally honest answers here. My WH and I are both feeling very gun-shy and unsure about if it's even possible. So I'd like to hear both the success and failure stories, please?

Thank you all so much!

-AmI.

Ami- Thats a great question I can't wait to see the answers.

I've read on other threads, that it all depends on the ATTITUDE of the WS.

if the WS is totally open, and offers transparency, then it is possible long-term to recover trust.

If the WS is resentful, or tries to hide things in any way... then trust will not come back.

And then there's the harley issue, that you should never 100% trust your spouse anyway. For an extreme example, you should never trust them if they tell you they are going by themselves to a drinking party at a strip club with private rooms, "but trust me, i'm just going for those other people" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is THE answer.



I do none of these things, and I think most'll agree the Wookie committed some pretty horrible things.

I don't need to do any of those things....and the Wookie knows if I felt that need, I'd be gone in a flash.

- Kimmy

I totally agree with this. I could not have said it better myself.

But AmI - you are getting ahead of the game here. Things are better at your house right now, but PLEASE remain fully guarded. You should EXPECT the WH to rear his ugly head and test your boundaries again. Please be prepared for this so you don't get blindsided and destroyed again.

Yes, you caught a glimpse of your H, but it's not so easy. Enjoy the time with your H, but please keep your guard up 100% for the return of the WH. Be prepared and then you'll be able to deal with it.
Mulan

My story (in cliffs) is under "victim of multiple affairs"? thread.

Personally I think if a person cheats *once* a recovery can be made and trust *over time* can return. I think if a person has more than ONE affair on a person.....they are considered untrustworthy period. I have yet to meet a person that had 2-3 or more affairs and stopped doing it in the long run. I feel once a person does it that many times, its more of a personality trait. Kind of like a drug user/alcoholic. You may see a few that have stopped, but overall.....I think the count is pretty high on repeat offenders.

I regained trust with my EX after her first A.....after I suspected the 2nd, I didnt trust her as far as I could throw a dump truck. Sure enough, she had another affair (3rd) death blow of a marriage.

I can't say enough about beginning to follow the RULES OF RECOVERY. I even think Harley calls these the RULES OF MARRIAGE. I know I've been called STRICT..as of yesterday..but I'm just SOOOOO sold on this. My H and I, who have been married for 30 years, should have been doing these things for day one. I've encouraged my OS, who is thinking about marriage to read the Harley book, THE ONE, because I'm so sold on these principles. If you follow them as a couple, TRUSTING each other will be the natural consequence. So, yes I TRUST my H but that's because we have lots of SAFEGUARDS in place to PROTECT our MARRIAGE. Our MARRIAGE, protecting IT, is our highest PRIORITY..DAILY...

Plus, RECOVERY is hard as heck and it takes lots of HARD WORK and lots of TIME. Early in Recovery, we were like the WALKING WOUNDED. My H remained IN THE FOG for the months and months..it was like he was coming from out of space..from an alien world.



I used to ask myself ALL OF THE ABOVE very early in Recovery. Now I can say with all honesty I have none of those concerns. My H is very much IN LOVE with me. He is even more ROMANTIC than I am. Moreso it seems for him, there never was another woman. WEIRD....It's like he's grateful and thankful that he didn't lose me.

The other KEY to this, for us, other than the FOUR RULES has been my PERSONAL DEDICATION to MAINTAINING the PERSONAL CHANGES that I made during PLAN A. It was like a lightbulb went off in my head and I GOT IT. After all this time with my H, he had to leave me for me to GET IT...how to be a good wife..how to properly LOVE AND CARE for my H.....HOW TO LOVE AND RESPECT MYSELF ..My PERSONAL GROWTH started then and has NEVER STOPPED....

AmIok,

Well I don't think I fall into the category of FBS yet, I can answer the questions as it relates to me and my WH. I don't know what defines a serial adulterer, but I think my WH is one, or at least borderline. So my answer may differ than a ONS or a one-time EA/PA.

My sig line has the details of what I know/WH admits to, not to say there wasn't others, I think there were other EA's. My WH swore after his first EA/PA 20 years ago he would never hurt me in the same way again. There were tears, remorse, guilt, the whole tomale. It took awhile, but I did eventually stop checking his pockets and his wallet (this was before cell phones). We never went to MC, WH never found out why he had the A. Fast forward almost 5 years ago, similar behavior started up, the distancing, nothing I could do was right, SF was non-existent. I knew deep down, but when you are in the middle of the A, the BS's self-esteem is so low, I couldn't face it until well after it was underway, almost a year later! I couldn't believe he would do it again after seeing the devastation the first time. Now, to add more to it, WH went to IC as he insisted I go to IC for my anger issues. He brought up one day about another co-workers about 10 years into our marriage that he didn't have a PA with, only an EA, bc he wanted her as a friend. Nothing about that it was wrong and what it might do to me and our sons. WH thought he had done a "good" thing, not have a PA, and he told me about it, albeit 10 years later. I held a different opinion on the matter. It was at that pt. that I could see this is a major problem, WH needs to find out why he does this. I still stayed/stay for many reasons, although my resolve has slowed way down.

I still check his e-mails, go through spurts of not doing it and doing it. I don't check his cell phone bill as I don't have access to the on-line billing. In some ways I am glad bc it takes up a lot of time and energy to check on these things.

I was hurt multiple times and have heard the lies about not doing it again and he does. WH has not explored why he does this, I can guess it relates to FOO, but I don't know.
Because this is unexplored, I do not trust him. Will I ever? Never again like I did when we were married or after his first affair. I think it would be naive, again this is for me and my situation, if I did trust him 100%. I can only trust that if he does do anything like this, you will see a smoke cloud from my departure, of that I am 100% sure of. I've read here that no one should have such blind faith in the other partner's fidelity and that is why we should all be alert to situations that could lead to inappropriate relationships, and safeguard our spouse by removing ourselves from them. So I do not think it is a bad sign to say you don't trust the other person 100%. Instead we should recognize our own faults, whether it is with those of the opposite sex or being too demanding/critical/lazy/drugs/alchohol/on and on and try to safeguard our families from our negative behaviors.

I concur with techie's summary too. In the case of my Squid she has been transparent in actiity, and careful not to arrange things she thinks will hurt me. We poja pretty much everything we do that affects the other.

I don't worry that Squid isn;t where she says she is - despite her incredible deceit and poison back in the day.

But it's a different sort of trust. I rarely check phonebills etc now.

But I do not DEPEND on Squid not being unfaithful any more.

Last time I leaned on her so heavy that when she pulled away in her affair I fell and smashed on the floor. I was desperate to trust her then because I had become entanged with her.

Now I am self-realised. Squid is free to betray me if she chooses, and I know I'll be alright alone afterwards.

I liked being blindly dependent, but thats gone forever, and probably wasn't healthy anyway.

This was we stay together because we WANT to be, we are trustworthy to each other because we want to be trusted. We love because we want to not because we need to.

Emerging from the darkness of a bad two years I am seeing that this is refreshing. We are allowed to experience and enjoy our marriage less hysterically than we did before.

And we also trust less hysterically : less desperately than before.

I hope some of this makes some sense.

AmI,

Are you saying that your WH and you are considering making a very important choice today based on wanting to know the future?

Is that what I'm hearing? You want to know if your marriage is worth getting there, deciding when you're there...and if you get there at all? Maybe you'll get somewhere else entirely...then what?

Your decision to take that journey is your own...every step is worth your life...your choices are valid.

Why is this question any different than, "If our marriage is going to end up in pain and suffering again, why try?" Isn't that asking that the results determine your choices? Results you won't know until you make the choice to go there?

(And I'm all for what others have responded...it is up to transparency, which is a part of intimacy and self-accountability...the husband of your friend CHOSE to be monitored rather than transparent...wasn't her doing it to him without his consent.)

LA

Here are the FOUR RULES FOR A SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE that I was speaking of:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html


Everyone is making great points here. Yea, like LA says, aren't you putting the cart before the horse? So you wouln't plant a seed unless you are POSITIVE that it will grow into a BEAUTIFUL FLOWER? You would do everything necessary and possible to make it grow, right? You would water it and fertilize it. You would take care of it. That's what Marriage Building is all about.

I think you have to keep in mind as Mulan is implying that you are continuing to talk to the WH. A part of him does not want this to work. A part of him wants this assurance that this is a SURE THING...because he wants to continue to USE THE DRUG...have his fun times with the HO..yes, the HO who TMs your H....

Also, don't downplay the FACT that he will need to go through WITHDRAWAL first..you will need to struggle with him through that..It will be a long, long time before you can begin to think about your marriage as being CLOSE TO NORMAL....Remember 3 years for us and it is just now GETTING THERE....

One more thing....

We are so FARGING happy now.

(le sigh)

I totally agree with Techie here. It's totally up to the WS.

Naturally the BS will be hypervigillant for some time but if their FWS denonstrates appropriate behaviour and earns trust then of course recovery and trust are possible even likely.

In the case sited, multiple betrayals, who can blame the BS really.

Thank you all very much, it is great to get some good information.

I can see how it looks like I'm putting the cart before the horse .... maybe I worded it wrong. We're not trying to jump straight in to anything, or make monumental decisions right this second, or figure out what the future definitely holds. Heck, I'd guess that WH is probably just happy that my head is not spinning and spewing out pea soup all over the place anymore.


The question is just whether it is *possible* for us to be happy, to trust, to find love and admiration and respect again.

I'm willing to plant and tend to the seed, water it and feed it and take care of it, at the risk that it may not ever become the flower I have envisioned. But I at least want to know that it's a seed, and not just a pebble. That it at least has the *possibility* of becoming a flower.

And yes, I'm trying very hard to keep my guard up, but also to enjoy the little, good things when they happen, just for what they are and not place the meaning of the world on them.



BobPure ... your post completely summed up what I've been trying to learn. LA is probably black and blue from banging her forehead on the wall trying to get some of this stuff through my head. I was totally enmeshed, completely relying on my H .... and like you said, leaning on him so hard that I fell and smashed on the floor when he moved.


Kimmy .... "le sigh" ??????? Ugh! I can see your sappy, happy little grin from here. GAG!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Noodle,

I agree with your post, especially on what happened afterward. In my sitch that is exactly what happened anytime I "caught" WH in the last A. For about a year WH lived in Ohio and I in NJ while he came to NJ every two weeks. I caught a txt message and didn't have as much control as AmI and blew up at WH right away. Of course he denied everthing, didn't know how she got his cell (OH no.), all three boys were in the house at the time, we were in the garage. Two of our sons were bigger than him, I think he was more afraid of them and their reaction than anything. Oh the stories he spun that w/e, I eventually bought it bc it was what I wanted to believe I guess. I didn't discover MB for another 10 months. After I moved to OH from NJ, I immediately sensed things weren't kosher. I put a keylogger on two of our computers and that is how I found out that they would laugh at me and the stories WH would spin. I still don't know if I can get over that part, I am glad I saw it in print where I couldn't deny or rationalize it.

AmIok, please proceed with caution.

Steve Harley very much believes that LOVE is a VERB and I very much believe that my H had stopped LOVING me because the OW was the one filling his LOVE BANK.

Steve's quote to me was: "If loved you once, he can love you again...so it wasn't a PEBBLE..it was a SEED..it is a SEED....

Still, proceed with caution NOW since your H remains WAYWARD as many of us have said.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Noodle,

You have quite a way of slicing right through to the painful truth! You're very insightful.

I know he's still W, and that it's very possible that he had just the kind of conversation you described with her. And after my ugly fit, it may have been deserved.

He hasn't made me any promises about her, or even about recovery. Neither of us have even committed to that yet -- which is why the question is whether or not it's possible.

I truly believe he was sincere during our conversation, and I see a very sincere effort made by him since then. He's telling me where he is, what he's doing, being very accountable for his time -- and all at his own initiative. I'm willing to take those things, and appreciate them at face value for right now.

May be different when we have a real recovery plan, or decide that we're even going that way.

But for now, we're just gathering information on whether or not it's possible. Can we really learn to love and trust again after all this (not WILL we, just CAN we)?


-AmI.

AmI,

The answer is "yes".

And "no".

You can recover your marriage, truly recover it. It will not be what it was before, because the simple fact is that YOU and HE will not be the same two people you were before. You both have been through something that has changed the very nature of who you are.

And that will change the very nature of your marriage. For better, or for worse, if you will. (Pun intended)

Consider what you had before, do you want THAT? Of course not. Consider what you might want the M to be - and shoot for that marriage. Recovery should be with the aim to have the RIGHT marriage, not to "recover" the old one, because the old one was.....well, it wasn't working...at least for one of you.

I've been lurking - you're in a sort of critical place right now, hanging in between his staying and working on it, and his giving up and leaving. He seems to be sitting on the fence. He may fear that you can't forgive him - he has to believe he can forgive himself, perhaps. Maybe also to trust and believe in himself again, too. It will take him to believe these things to recover it all. Or to "restart" or to at least begin to negotiate a reconciliation point.

So, yes, it can be recovered. And no, it can't, if you are talking about having it the way it used to be.


And can you really trust again?

Yes and no.

Yes, you can trust - because you learn to let in the trust and let down your guard again over time. It is a natural process, but it takes time and learning. You learn slowly what you can trust him to do, and what you are willing to let go of a little at a time.

And no, you can't trust - because somewhere back in the corners of your mind, there will be that whisper. My H had a ONS many many years ago. That whisper was there 30 years, and was there when I found out about this recent A. It was a distant whisper, but turned into a scream this past year, in chorus with the screams of the pain from the A he had last fall. I know, however, that both voices are now just occasional chatter, and they will fade again.

So you can trust. And you can't.

I think it is the way of the world.

It is black. And it is white. And it is grey.

But mark us in the recovered column - but hey, don't call us "recovered" really - does that mean we are back where we started? If so, then call us

starting over

refreshed

renewed

recommitted - I really like this one

hallelujah, we found each other again in the midst of the storm of real life

rejoined



SB

My W's affair ended almost six years ago and I still do a little checking up from time to time.

Story:

Last fall we had a get together at our house with 30 or 40 of our closest friends. Late that night when there were only 8 or 10 of us left going, I looked up and noticed she was not there. I walked around the downstairs and outside and did not see her. The first conclusion I jumped to was the worst. And up to this point she had given me absolutely no reason not to trust her. I head upstairs and notice that our bedroom door is locked! Imagine what immediately went through my mind. Of course by this time I had had a few drinks and was not thinking clearly. I listened at the door - heard nothing, knocked - got no response. By this time I am freaked out. I walked downstairs to see who else was missing, and couldn't really tell who was missing since there were so many people there earlier.

I go back upstairs, knock on the door (mind you by this time, I am really freaked out), kick the door down to discover and empty bedroom.

So I head downstairs dumbfounded and not knowing what to think. This party started at 3 PM and by now it is after 1 AM. I sat back down at the bar and here she comes walking from across the street with one of her girlfriends carrying a pitcher of Margaritas that they had gone to her house to prepare for the group.

There I sit, knowing I had just jumped to a conclusion that she didn't deserve, and I kicked our bedroom door down!

After everyone left, I told her what happened, and was surprised that she wasn't mad at me for thinking badly of her and kicking a bedroom door down. She re-iterated how sorry she was for the affair so many years ago, and said he understood that I was always still a little worried about it happening again.

I do trust my FWS, but there is always a hint of doubt. I have forgiven my wife, but I will never forget. The BS’s know the hurt that causes and do not want to go through that again.