I wish that I could feel just one speck of remorse or regret from my ex. But there isn't any there. Just raging entitlement for his affair and bitter resentment towards me.

I so need and want to forgive him, FOR MY OWN SAKE, but without any remorse on his part, I can't. Believe me, I have tried.

I've asked this before on this and other forums - how do you forgive someone who isn't sorry? As far as I'm aware, not even God does that.

I've been told time and time again that WXH and OW aren't really happy, that their relationship won't last, that deep inside, WXH is all chewed up with guilt etc. But these do not seem to be the facts! WXH and OW are happy, otherwise they wouldn't still be together, their relationship has been going on for nearly two years now and shows NO SIGN of ending, and, although I can't read his mind, WXH sure isn't acting like someone who feels any guilt.

Sometimes, affairs do last. And there are no regrets from the affair partners. I can cope with the fact that WXH and OW might be together for a lifetime. But how do I come to terms with the fact that WXH doesn't care how much he hurt his children and me?

How do I let go of this and forgive him? Someone please tell me.

Alph.

My dear Alphin,

You do realize that the OP & WS have to pretend they are happy. They have to live in a facade (aka: fog). They have to believe their lies. Why? Because you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.

Just the facat that they united under an A is enough to destroy their R. You don't have to lift a finger to aid in that destruction.

So to your questions:

1. Does God forgive the unrepentant?

My answer: He doesn't. Forgiveness is a benefit NOT a right. I recall the OW telling me I had to forgive the WS and the WS rebutted similar. That shook me straight. I told the WS (because talking to an OW is futile - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ).....I told the WS that I didn't OWE him any kind of forgiveness. It was my choice to give it or not. He couldn't force me....then added my classic RB line: ....because you know WS you said I can't control you, well now you must know you can't control me either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

2. If He doesn't, how can I?

My response: That's your choice. Though I tend to think it is useless to forgive someone who isn't repentant. You mentioned you need to do it for you. Why? I would think that you would feel quite foolish forgiving someone who is NOT repentant. That's like the judge passing a not guilty verdict knowing full well the rapist will do it again. What's the benefit to all that effort? A clean conscience? I think not. A clear conscience? There are much better ways to get a clear conscience.

If you are currently stuck with a WS stuck on stupid, then I suggest you keep your distance, lest those germs jump on you. Instead I think you should move forward, knowing you've done your best. Unfortunately your WS is one slow learner....but then again....most of them are slow learners. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Hard to Love someone you are bearing unforgiveness towards though isn't it.

I think we all struggle with this.

We ask Jesus to forgive our sins even as we have forgiven others. If we don't forgive, neither will God forgive us.

Sucks doesn't it. I'm nowhere near this for my wife's OM. I ask God to help me to forgive him.

Useless, or impossible? For my own sake I would like to let go of the bitterness and pain inside me and not carry it any longer. It's not about making WXH feel good, it's about shedding a heavy, heavy load off my back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


I don't love my ex any more. We divorced because he left me for the OW, and moved in with her. He is still living with her. I tried to save the M using the MB plan, but I failed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If he had come home, or even thought about it; if he had once said sorry or even acknowledged he had hurt me, it would have been enough.

But there's been nothing at all. It's like he's done NOTHING AT ALL. To receive forgiveness from God, you have to show repentance first.

Can I shed this load I carry without forgiving him?

Alph.

Alphin

Theres an excellent book called "How can I forgive you?" by Janice Spring-Abrahms. You DON'T have to forgive. Thereis a path for managing unrepentant trespassers called ACCEPTENCE.

That book's taught me that ut ispossible just to accept teh nrepentant foulness of people, inconsieratin against teh remainingparts of their decent humanity and in view of our own imperfections.

Squid, I have forgiven as she is very repentant, but it has helped me heal internally from several unresolved resentful relationships in my life.

I strongly recommend the book. It was six quid off Amazon.

Regarding your question, I know Jesus asked god to forgive his tortuters :" forgive them,they now not what they do" when they wereclealy not repenetant at the time, but we do not know if they WERE forgiven or not.

Forgiveness is given through grace, not earned, so you could argue that there is no need to perform the "work" of repentence in order to be forgiven.


You do know, Alphin, that in all likelihood your thread now will become a shouty theological debate that ends in bitter recrimination between humanists and theists, evolution & creationism will be bitterly argued by haughty people,none of which will help you address your hurt.


* sigh *

Alphin,

Bearing in mind the words above of Bob Pure, if you are a Christian - "Love your enemies" is a command not a suggestion. Forgive if you want to be forgiven is the teaching of Jesus.

Personally, I think if you refuse to forgive, you will be unable to release your burden - **IF** you are a Christian.

Bob's path of acceptance may work if you are not a Christian.

I don't claim to have forgiven OM in my situation. But I would like to get to that place for my sake regardless of his demonstrated unrepentance and screwing with my kid's sport.

B0b,

Thank you. I will take a look at this book.

Perhaps there are two levels of unrepentant sinners - those who sin knowing they are wrong, but do it anyway, and those who sin not understanding the full evil of what they have done - like those who crucified Jesus.

Perhaps God touched the hearts of those who killed his son after the fact, so that they were able to experience true remorse.


Oh indeed. It's all good fun tho, innit? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Alph.

I am not a Christian. But I think this is a worthwhile approach to life for anyone. Forgiveness is about lifting a weight off of your own soul (or spirit, or whatever). My point is that I want to forgive, but cannot without remorse from WXH.

I know I can't shed my burden without forgiving him. And I so want to shed it.

Alph.

I understand Alphin. God's principles apply to believers as well as unbelievers. I think here you are answering your own question somewhat.

But take a look at the book Bob Pure recommended.

God Bless.

Thank you, BK. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Alph.

((((Alphin))))

Alphin, forgiveness and release of your anger are two entirely different things. You can release your anger without forgiving him. And you can't forgive him until there is SOMETHING TO forgive in the first place. The Christian standard of forgiveness is to forgive the repentant.Otherwise, it is just an empty feel good measure that achieves nothing. The answer for me was just acceptance.

You can eventually lose your anger, but remember, you are SUPPOSED to be angry at injustice. That is how decent people react to injustice. That doesn't mean you can't move on from this, only that this is a healthy reaction.

For me, it took time [7+ years] and more recently, a letter sent to my X and his OW expressing my feelings. Now, my feelings are MY problem and they probably laughed at my letter and tossed it in the trash. But it felt absolutely wonderful getting all that off my chest and feel I have come to acceptance. Just writing it out was wonderful. I didn't initially intend on sending it, but I thought, what the heck, I think I will!

I wish I could give you an easy answer, Alphin, but unfortunately, I don't think there is one. This is a fresh wound for you and one that has salt poured into it daily. You get to watch the same injustice done to your innocent children. I honestly don't see you could not help but feeling angry at that injustice. But you can eventually come to the point of acceptance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

A co-worker steals your cost savings idea and gets an award. Then this same co-worker starts an ugly rumor about you stealing company property. Then this same co-worker apologizes for the stealing your idea but not about the rumor. You forgive? Let's say you do. Then this co-worker takes your parking spot, intentionally spills coffee on your final presentation documents..... no mind, this co-worker unbeknowns to the ignorant has a definite agenda.....to cause you such misery that you leave and give them more room to select their next victim....your boss. Who btw, is a nice person but like all the rest has been taken by this amibious co-worker.

You want to forgive this person? If you do, what message do you send? The co-worker isn't ready to change their ways. In fact, your forgiveness may give them more power to do more damage. Yet you need to have forgiveness?

Best that forgiveness be spent on persons (including yourself) who truly deserve it. Not wasted on someone who treats it with such disrespect that they use it as a stepping stone to continue their hardened ways.

I am not saying NOT to forgive, but don't throw your pearls before swine.

Just something to think about.

L.

Alphin,

I'm struggling with your same questions these last few weeks! Could it be that we are both now at about 2 years after d day? In my case WH has not yet asked for a divorce but is still living with OW.

From what I've read and studied, I agree with the fact that unfortunately you cannot forgive unless there is something to forgive according to the person you think has hurt you. In that sense adultery is obviously a sin, a mortal one for the Catholic Church, and it cannot be denied, it is obvious, but if the WS doesn't recognize it, how can you forgive? So you have to pray that the WS and the OW REALIZE and give a name to what they have done, for their own good in the first place, because otherwise they are just living in a fantasy, not the real world.

God will always forgive IF you ask for it, because He is good and merciful. But you DO have to ask for it.

Dr. Harley doesn’t believe in simple forgiveness for infidelity, he thinks there should be “just compensation”. Therefore you not only need an expression of regret and remorse but actions that will prove it. Unfortunately that is not OUR situation at the moment, but who knows what will happen in a few months or even years. If you can work through the anger, come to acceptance and the fact that you cannot control others and that you are not responsible for what others CHOOSE to do, and if you can avoid bitterness, I think that would be the way to prove that you are willing to forgive your WS when he regrets what he has done. If on the contrary you are angry and bitter he would probably find it more difficult to feel regret and express it to you. At least that’s the way I see it. I’m working on trying to accept the situation and not show any animosity, anger or hate towards WH, which is not that difficult to do since I never see him. But I will see him next week, and I want to be prepared not to show the disgust and anger I feel.

In some ways, we also CANNOT forgive what he/they does/do to the children, THE CHILDREN will have to do that. My DDs are teenagers and with a mind of their own. They do not forgive WH, they have asked me to divorce him, and also expressed their opinion that they never want him to come back to the family! I was actually surprised they felt so strongly against their father, because I have never said I didn’t want him back. On the contrary, I have tried to explain the situation to them by saying that although he was acting in this strange way, I hoped it was temporary and that he would come to his senses some day. I have reminded them how he used to be. I have tried to soften their position because I have always believed in forgiveness and have always taught them not to be resentful.

“LK 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.”


Loving someone doesn’t necessarily mean you have to forgive them. If you forgive without their repenting it’s like agreeing with what they are doing, it’s saying “adultery is OK, I can forgive you every time you commit it, so go on doing it”. Loving is not a passive thing, it’s an ACTIVE thing, it takes work, you have to be STRONG, and this is one situation where it is very clear. It would be much easier to “accept” the adultery as my MIL and BIL have done, but it’s not loving WH. If you love him, you would not want him to be a deceitful, lying person and you shouldn’t help him by “blessing” the adulterous relationship.

Loving isn’t equal to forgiveness. Loving your enemies doesn’t meaning you have to forgive them, it means LOVE them, do good to them, be considerate to them, etc. You should forgive EVERYONE, when they ask for your forgiveness.

I think that the bitterness and I’m sure the anger can be taken care of because it depends exclusively on YOU, and you control you. So you CAN do it. But forgiveness needs the other person, so you cannot do it alone, and since you cannot control the other people, you need ACCEPTANCE. Accept that you are not omnipotent, respect their free will, respect them as individuals. I have not come to acceptance yet, but if our wise ML and BP say it can be reached, I believe and trust them, and I’m working towards it.

Although you are not Christian, let me tell you that in Matthew 18:15 Jesus clearly explains what to do when your brethren has offended you and it does not include unrepentant forgiveness.

You are a good person, Alphin. The fact that you want to lose the bitterness and anger proves that. And it will make you a better person. This is the “worst” situation that you may have to suffer in your life according to Dr. Harley, so be glad you are surviving it coming out a better and not a worse person.


I believe that what people consider “Christian” values are actually “human” values, in the sense that they are just the ways humans SHOULD behave towards each other. Just look around you, at people. You will see the consequences of not applying the human values to the solution of problems . Why is there so much accumulated pain, so much lashing back, so much bitterness, sadness, mistrust etc. ? It doesn’t have to be like that. But once you start on the path of anger and bitterness, it’s hard not to continue. Inertia is easier than taking action, and fighting.

just my humble opinion.

I started a discussion on here about a year ago regarding the book BOLD LOVE. I'm not good at SEARCHING but you might find it helpful to read that thread or even the book.

The authors very well make the assertion that out of LOVE we should not forgive unless there is repentance. Otherwise, the sinner has not learned from their sins. They provide the Biblical references as indicated by CC to support this.

Here's why you should forgive - not for their sakes but for yours.

My husband's professional training talks about the mind-body connection. His training came from a number of different culture's medical training that accept that bodies can be healed when the mind and heart are healed.

Could it be possible that your body could be healed as well? Perhaps - perhaps not. But the damage being done to it has an emotional component. Study and meditate on forgiveness, and research the mind-body connection. You may find yourself defying the doctors' prognosis, and feeling yourself restored.

The human body is an amazing thing.

other thoughts....

The OW in my case was not only unrepentent, but had used "God" as an excuse to violate NC. She beat me about the head and shoulders with this requirement to forgive - which in her mind meant "reconcilation", i.e. letting her back into our marriage. When confronted with the audacity of that demand, she denies that is what she wants - she just wants to be our friends, according to her...

Forgiving her does not mean reconciliation - I counseled long and hard with the leaders of my church on this one. I have "forgiven" her - even though she is unrepentent of her relationship with my husband and even though she used God to try to continue that relationship, when God had told my husband and me through His servants that under no circumstances should we let her have contact with either of us.

I wound up with some serious health challenges as a result of this ordeal, some were already in place when she came into our lives... At the peak of her intrusion, I lost a baby - then at age 40, I knew I was running out of time, but didn't have the emotional space to really deal with it and come to terms with it, because she occupied that space... It wasn't until 4 years later, and the loss of another baby that I had enough peace in my life that I could face what was happening to me.

I know it took me that long to forgive her, and that I needed that much time, but the price I paid for giving her any attention at all was horrific.

Alphin - since you are not a Christian I'll not get into a lot of theological "stuff," but I'll address your question a bit more generally.

"Forgiveness," as a concept is rooted in OUR need for forgiveness from God. To attain that forgiveness, we were incapable of "doing it on our own," so God provided the means by which we can be forgiven of our sins. That way is Jesus Christ. That is the ONLY way. God does NOT forgive us our sins by any other means.

God loves everyone and wants them to come to repentance and salvation through Christ, but God does NOT forgive simply because He loves us. He forgives those "in Christ" because He loves Christ and does it for Christ. God IS also patient, and will wait our entire lifetime for us to repent and come to him, but there is NO "marriage with Christ" without repentance of our sins, belief in, and acceptance of Christ.

When BK talks about "love your enemies," and "forgive others," the operative thought is to "Love as God loves us" and to "Forgive as God forgives us." They are two different, though connected things. You CAN love someone without forgiving them. You CAN forgive someone without loving them.

A case in point. Christians are commanded to forgive a fellow Christian who has sinned against them and who repents and seeks their forgiveness. Even if they do so "seventy times seven times" in one day. But they are not commanded to forgive without repentance. By the same token, Christian Faithful Spouses (while commanded to forgive a repentant) are NOT commanded to continue to live with a former adulterous spouse. They CAN divorce even though God "hates" divorce.

The "trouble" you are having in forgiving your xH and the OW is not much different that God being "unable" to forgive anyone other than through Christ, no matter how much God "wants" to forgive everyone. There is ONLY one way, and that way begins with repentance and goes through Christ.

How can YOU forgive your xH and the OW? You can "trick yourself" into believing that you are "so much better than them" that you will magnanimously and unilaterally "forgive" them and treat them "as if" they have never sinned. In short, you can try to do what God does for us "in Christ," but you can try to it only "in me." That places you as the "judge" of sin and the "forgiver" of sin, IF you want a role that is reserved for God.

Alphin, there ARE consequences to all sin, and adultery is no different. What you are dealing with are the consequences as they impact you. So unless you feel responsible for your xHusband's adultery because you were "such a shrew" or some such nonsense, "what's done is done" and it is time for you to "move on" and leave the "episode" as an episode of the past. A "part of your history," but not one that exerts any control over your life. You, too, (as am I and everyone else) are also a sinner by God's definition. So perhaps the "answer" to "how do you forgive" lies in your studying just what sin and forgiveness ("as God has forgiven us") is according to God, the one who "defined" both.

I searched out and found the BOLD LOVE thread for you.

. . . they know not what they do.

Think of all the mentally ill people who commit heinous crimes without any remorse. Are they forgiven? Are they responsible for their own mental illnesses?

Alph,

One path to letting go of any anger and bitterness is to find someone else to love and who returns your love. There are other paths to healing, but finding someone special is the quickest way to overcome negative feelings toward someone who betrays you. Then it becomes a matter of you not caring one way or the other for the betrayer, whether they are happy or not.

What eats at someone in your position most often is the feeling that the betrayer appears to be blissfully happy while you are miserable and the obvious injustice of it all.

As to forgiveness, I think it might be possible over a period of time to forgive people for what they do to you, but it would be extremely difficult for me to forgive someone for acts that hurt my children.

From the biblical perspective, this indicates that we are to look to GOD to forgive. The loving response to our enemies is to pray that they will seek forgiveness from God. I've learned to do this with the FOW. I don't forgive her but I pray that she has asked the Lord forgiveness and will/has accepted Jesus Christ as her Savior....