I've read a few posts, and see on the question about whether trust ever returns that the strongest advice is: it depends on the WS's attitude.

Our story, hopefully in brief:

17 years of marriage, many children. 9 month separation, 13.5 years ago, (a result of his sister's pressuring him to divorce me, and his defense of her bad behavior in our home) during which time he's always sworn there was no one else.

2 secret e-mail accounts in the past 5-6-? years, 1st one discovered 5-6 years ago, full of e-mails from a woman "N.S." I'd heard of once or twice in passing, never enough even to know they were friends. He got angry when I stumbled on him reading the account, although I was only mildly curious-- in short, I did and said nothing to incite the anger, as I didn't even think much about it. I was just a little surprised. His anger is what made me suspicious. He then insisted on deleting things before I could look at it, and now says it was just a party invitation, with bad language.

Shut down 1st e-mail, soon after opened another one, which I accidentally found (I trusted him completely) maybe 18 months later.

After another 18-24 months, I decided to find out why he felt the need for secrecy. I found he was getting almost daily cutesy e-mails, forwards but entirely of the "You're such a special friend" variety, and "You mean so much to me," and "I'll never forget you," from a young girl at work. In one 'survey' exchange, he answered her questions by saying that the first thing he thought when he met her was, "She's cute." And she says that she thinks his favorite thing is: "Visiting me at my desk <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />"

During this months he was receiving these e-mails, he stopped coming to bed at night, and entirely stopped making any intimate overtures.

A series of events of questionable honesty have followed this, including telling me he never or rarely even saw her anymore, and then one day, him letting it slip that he never sees her "except when he stops by her desk." Or claiming he didn't re-direct her to our joint account because he 'didn't hear' any of the three conversations and two screaming matches in which I very directly told him I wanted that. Another questionable event was coming home an hour and a half late, telling me two totally contradictory stories about where he was (1- I stopped to pick up medication, ran in and out without saying hello to anyone; 2- I circled around and couldn't find a parking place, so I never went in) and then coming onto me like a stud stallion on viagara-- after claiming for months that he thought he was developing a medical problem and couldn't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> He's been miraculously fine since that day, no sign of medical issues.

He also made it clear I was not welcome at work during those months.

He eventually told her no more contact, and we had a mysterious spate of flattened tires when he went to work. He swore someone was doing it, went to great lengths with hospital security to find the person, and the minute I suggested an angry young girl might do it, treated me like I was crazy for thinking someone must be doing it, and told me it was just bad luck.

In the course of other events, I realized the mysterious NS was still in contact with him. He removed her from his personal account, letting me think he was no longer in contact. He gave me his password and has insisted this proves he's on the up and up. Not really, as I later discovered he just moved NS and who knows who else to his work account, and there was ongoing contact.

I later still learned that some of the contact-- which has lasted since our separation 13.5 years ago-- was him complaining about me, and faithful NS always giving him a shoulder to cry on and back him up in his position.

Somewhere along the line, I discovered that, years ago when he came home hours late from work EVERY DAY and told me he was taking naps (he worked nights, and it was a long commute home), picking up groceries FOR ME, filling the gas tank FOR ME, etc.-- he was also having weekly coffee dates with yet another woman (unless it was actually NS and he lied about that, too) for a year or more, and leaving out that detail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Is this long enough yet? Sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

We saw a marriage counselor last March- June, who did push him for the need to be an open book. He flat out refused to let me in his work account, but promised to forward any personal e-mails. Not surprisingly, I later found out he'd had a few (2? 3?) exchanges with NS that he didn't forward to me. He says it's because he only promised to forward FAMILY personal e-mail, and that he didn't realize NS was an issue. This is not true, because he himself moved NS to the work account even before *I* realized she was an issue. He also, in a moment of thinking I was going to hack into someone's computer, warned HER I was going to get into her e-mail account, again, at a time when I wouldn't have tried such a thing because I still didn't realize she was an issue. This, in fact, is one of the things that makes me think he's scared of what I would find in her e-mail if I ever actually managed such a feat. In short, he knew darn well NS was an issue, and flat out lied about that, too.

He now swears he cut it off entirely with NS, but won't show me any proof that he did. After a 13 year friendship, he says he can't remember anything about the e-mail he sent her, and her answer was, "OK," and he immediately deleted everything, and because I told him no contact, he refuses to ask her to forward these e-mails to me to prove he really did it.

Of course, after presumably breaking contact with her, we had about a 6-8 week spate of hang-up calls.

As to forwarding family e-mail, there's also been an incident of failing to do that, and of course, he justifies that, because of the nature of that e-mail. The message I get is that he'll be an open book... unless he has a reason not to be. That's not exactly a change from his former dishonest self.

His attitude towards all of this is that there's absolutely nothing odd going on, that he didn't hide her, that he did hide her because he knew I'd be insanely jealous (though I've never been even remotely jealous of his female friends and co-workers), that I knew *all* about her, that actually I didn't know about her but only because he didn't tell me about her because she was 'from the time of our separation' and I'd get upset... the contradictions go on and on.

His attitude is that I'm ridiculous and crazy.

He has made changes-- he's stopped the drip-drip of critisms and telling me how poorly everyone thinks of me, for instance. He's coming to bed at night with me now, and has regained ALLLL his old energy in bed. He's attentive and says kind things and showers me with gifts.

When I say the trust has been broken, he shrugs and acts like it's my problem. He will not let me into the work account. (I haven't asked.) When I suggested he go to it via our home computer and send me the e-mail from his sister, he said something about it being set up on lotus, and he can't access it from home, although I know he can access the system itself, and get his pay stubs, from home.

I don't know what to believe anymore. I take absolutely everything he says with a grain of salt. I view everything he says and does with a skeptical eye towards what his loophole is going to be or how he could be tricking me again. For instance, he is a supervisor, supposed to be off work at 6, but never gets off before 7, and often not until 8 or later. He always calls to say he's on his way home, and the caller ID shows his work number. I really honestly DO believe he's at work all that time, but the cynical part of me figures, given his past, he is quite capable of being off at some woman's house for an hour every evening and going back to work to make the call.

I'm probably re-stating myself by now, but his attitude continues to be one of denial that he's done anything wrong, and refusal to prove his honesty, or to understand how damaging any of this is.

Where do I go from here? Do I try to accept the many things he's doing right and changing? Do I give him a chance to wake up still more and admit to the rest? Do I cash it in? Do I save up $ for the day I find yet another woman and this one he leaves me for?

Our counselor said I can't feel safe in this marriage, and hinted I should save money on my own, and also said the answer was for me to pretend everything is good and dismiss his lies as "hmm, that's inexplicable," and forget about them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I am looking for a new counselor, and am attending al-anon meetings, as he is an adult child of an alcoholic, and exhibits many of those characteristics.

Sorry if this is disjointed. It's 13 years of stuff (and only some of it at that), and questions about the future. Is there one, when the WS just denies it all and refuses to be transparent?


Thanks for any suggestions.

What about his cell phone?

Have you read the spying 101 thread?? If not, go to the "Infidelity - Just Found Out Board" and find Longhorn's thread "For newly betrayed spouses" and click on that thread. In Longhorn's signature line is a link to the Spying 101 thread. (convoluted directions but I don't have the actual link handy).

Get some real good spyware (keylogger) on the home computer, get a voice activated digital recorder for the car and perhaps a GPS tracking system. Your husband sounds very experienced at hiding his secret life. You most likely must break through the wall of denial with a lot of very good PROOF. Don't confront until you get as much information as you can and confront with a plan you develope here on MB and/or with the direct counsel of the Harleys.

You can't recover a marriage without an acknowledgement of infidelity. Like Dr. Phil says "You can't fix what you won't acknowledge". He sounds very wayward and likely a serial cheater. Sorry.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Through all these years have YOU been wayward too??? Why would you ignore all this stuff??? What was in it for you??? I'm not being critical or accusatory, just inquisitive. I understand conflict avoidance and fear can be paralyzing.

No, I have not been wayward. I have thought about someone, but that's it. I have not had contact with that person in over 21 years.

It's not that I ignored it, as much as that I really didn't realize most of it until the last 18 months. I found the first e-mail 5 or 6 years ago, took his explanation with a grain of salt, and gave him the benefit of the doubt. It was maybe 2-1/2 years ago that I stumbled across the second, and (for better or worse) didn't rush to action.

I already went the keylogger route, which is how I found out about the local 'friend' and their e-mails. My mistake was in blowing up, rather than waiting quietly to see what else came out. But it has led to more and more things coming out, as we've gone through counseling, etc., some of it only in the last 2 or 3 months. Sometimes, it is only weeks or months after the fact that I suddenly put together two or three bits of information, and I realize more.

What else is in it for me is the fear of financial devastation, not wanting to have divorce in my past, not wanting to hurt the kids, fear of being alone, trying to give it time to work things out (in the past 18 months, we've been to Retrouvaille and marriage counseling both), trying not to rush to judgment and jump to conclusions, probably a strong element of being, as you say, paralyzed, by someone constantly telling me I'm crazy, such that I question my own judgment-- all the usual stuff, I guess.

Oh-- the cell phone. We got our first one in August, so prior to that, there was nothing to check.

When I find a phone bill (and yes, certain bills tend to disappear before I see them), there is never anything questionable on it.

I will take a look at the spying 101 you recommended, but I have done enough spying to know the important fact: he is not honest with me. It is time consuming and energy sapping to check up, and I realized some time ago that even when I turn up nothing, because of the things I HAVE found, and his questionable stories and excuses, proving his innocence each individual time only leaves me wondering if I just didn't look hard enough, or if he's just gotten better at hiding it. I don't want to spend my life having to check up on him to prove for myself whether he's finally become honest.

I don't have any way to get at his work account, I already know that he just moved 'important people' to it, and even if I could get at it, I realize he might just have set up another personal account that he only accesses from work so that a keylogger will never find it. (He found out I put the keylogger on.)

You won't have to snoop forever. Once you actually bust him he can't manipulate you anymore and you can THEN address a proper recovery. The WALL OF DENIAL he is putting up has you cornered and feeling crazy. Break it down and then you can rebuild a truly intimate marriage. Busting him is the key...as the situation currently and for a long time has been working just nicely for him.

BTW, a common smart tactic is using calling cards and pay phones...just maybe the voice recorder will pick that up. Plus, he likely uses his cell phone to call the hospital then have the operator connect him to the proper extension. The bill will only reveal a call to the hospital whereas the recorder will reveal the true nature of the call.

Last thought, his secrecy and the length of time this has gone on demonstrates to me that these activities are merely extracirricular relations. Still very bad, but he evidently values his family greatly and you will very likely recover your marriage. Once you bust him, he will just collapse under the weight that the many years of lies have built up. I don't have sympathy for him...he's got to own it but somewhere in there he just may be relieved to finally be busted. You can do this and you will make it. Just my opinion.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- he doesn't want you at work....go anyway. Show up with flowers and a big "I love you" balloon. Don't allow him to manipulate you and keep you from being a great wife.

The thing is, I don't think there's anything going on NOW. Without going into details, I believe he and the young lady (used loosely, she apparently has quite the reputation with married men <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) at work sufficiently embarrassed themselves with one another that they are embarrassed to even run into each other in the halls. It is quite easy to believe it never got physical. Also, the coincidental flat tires shortly after he told me he ended contact with her would seem to suggest he really did.

As to the 13 year friend, we now live 1700 miles away, and if it was a physical affair, it was over even years before we moved, but continued as an EA. The spate of hang-ups just after he told me he sent her an e-mail ending contact would suggest he really did (assuming it was her, and not just coincidental timing).

IF they're continuing contact, he is no doubt being extremely careful to do it all through his work computer, through his work e-mail or one that he has never accessed from home. There is no way to access his work account.

He doesn't take the cell phone to work.

Our marriage counselor demanded that he allow me at work, and I do drop by occasionally with dinner for him or cookies for those he supervises.

The honesty I want from him is not about what is going on now, but to come clean about what DID go on. He's an expert at spinning stories for everything, and if he can't spin a story, just denies it ever happened. When confronted with the e-mails saying he thinks she's cute, his explanation was, "I meant cute like a ladybug!" and swearing he had no idea that it could be taken any other way! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Her saying his favorite thing is visiting her desk-- he's got no idea, of course, why she would think such a thing. And so it goes.

Here's the link to SPYING 101. <---------- Click here.

~ Marsh

ugh, I just hate manipulation and I know exactly how you feel. Without the facts about your own life, you are stuck in a limbo land of ****** not really knowing who you are married to. Not only that, but you have probably been exposed to STDs and don't even know it. Have you been tested for diseases? If not, I would definitely get this done.

Every day that he withholds the facts from you about your own life is another crime added to the mix. He is adding LIES to adultery. But no one has the right to the privacy to have an affair but he feels entitled for some reason.

Secondly, you can't force him to come clean and may have to come to the acceptance that you will never have a real marriage based on honesty with this man. You will never have any true intimacy, and most of all, there will never be an respect. You may come to a place where you have to decide if you want that or not. If you stay with that, you won't be a victim, but a volunteer.

Not that I think it will help much, but try printing out this letter and handing it to him. I would also suggest checking out the articles here on radical honesty. They explain how essential honesty is to marital survival.

here is the Josephs letter:



"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Dr. Harley:

From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

How an affair should end: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

I guess this is one of my big questions, that I really need answers for: is it humanly possible to have true intimacy with these lies and complete lack of trust always hovering in the background?

FWIW, it's quite possible he never slept with either of these women, (any possible pa with the long term friend was over years before I was even aware of the extent of their friendship, and I've had no sign of disease) and it's quite possible he has honestly convinced himself he did nothing wrong. Not that that changes the facts, for me, that I now see the pattern: when he's upset with me or our marriage, he gets friendly with other women, and given human nature, it's a matter of time before one of these friendships crosses the line.

I keep reading that men need respect. I try to give him that, but I'm realizing that giving him respect is never going to get me the truth I need about these women. I believe that no matter how hard I try, the respect and love I try to show will always be missing something (or am I making excuses for myself?) as long as these questions about these women are in my mind, and I believe eventually he will notice there's an emotional distance there and turn to someone else. I believe these things, between human nature and his nature, are unavoidably where we are heading, and believing that makes it even harder for me to show respect and love that could build our marriage back up.

Any advice or thoughts are appreciated, especially regarding my question in italics above.

The answer is no. It is impossible to have true intimacy in a marriage that is based on deceit and fraud. And that is what you have.

It doesn't matter if he has "convinced himself he has done nothing wrong," you still have a right to the truth. Of course, even that doesn't make any sense because he wouldn't be hiding the truth in the first place if he believed he didn't do anything wrong. And if that were true, it would mean you an even greater problem if you are married to someone who does not understand that adultery and lying are wrong. There is just no way you can rationalize this away for yourself, Cornered.

And yes, he does need respect, but so do you. And lying and cheating is the greatest act of disrespect a spouse can show.

So, not only is true intimacy impossible in a deceitful marriage, but your marriage will ALWAYS be vulnerable to repeat affairs and chronic affairs UNTIL THE PROBLEM is addressed. And the problem cannot ever be addressed and resolved until it is ACKNOWLEDGED.

Have you thought about calling up the OW and just asking her yourself? That is how I cracked my H's affair. She sang like a bird after a few quickly rejected denials. She told me everything. There are no guarantees, but you might get lucky. I was thinking of something like: "I found some old emails and know about your affair with my H. I just would like to know how this ended." In other words, don't ASK HER if she had an affair, just tell her you already know and are calling to get details. Tell her you are trying to save your marriage and feel like you would have a better chance if she could help fill in the information gaps.

As to rationalizing it away, I most definitely don't. It is possible these have only been ("ONLY" ha) emotional affairs, and that is why he's able to convince himself: after all, I didn't SLEEP with her. We're just friends.

And yes, I agree entirely: even if he didn't sleep with her/ them, the fact that he was so secretive about it tells me he knew it wasn't right. Sometimes, people are incredible at convincing themselves, even as they hide it. He swears, for instance, that he wasn't hiding anything, and that I knew all about her, then when pressed on that issue, admits he didn't actually tell me about her, but always has some 'reason' why he didn't, other than the obvious. The next step after that is to go on the offensive and tell me he doesn't know who my friends are. I tell him he does, and he says, "I don't KNOW that, do I," and I guess he thinks that solves the issue???

cornered, WS' DO rationalize their affairs in many ways, but they don't hide things unless they know they are wrong. If he thought it wasn't wrong, he would just tell you. What matters is the TRUTH, and the truth is that an emotional affair is just as bad as a physical affair. I sort of doubt, though, that some OW slashed his tires over an EA. That would be hard to believe.


This is just a childish manipulative tactic to change the subject. I hope you don't allow him to succeed. That is not even GOOD bullchit.

They weren't slashed. One day, two of them were flat with no apparent reason. It sounds to me like someone letting the air out. A couple of weeks later, there was a nail in one, and a day or so after that, a bed spring in another. He says there was construction, and it was just bad luck (although, as I said earlier, right up until I suggested her, he was adamant that someone must have done it.) Are you saying though that if it was indeed her and she went to those lengths, that they almost certainly had a physical affair, too?

I agree with you, and yet I am at a loss as to what else to say or do when he starts this. I stay as calm as I can and tell him that's ridiculous, and it effectively becomes a stalemate.

The same thing happens with his insistence that me leaving my password stored and my e-mail sitting open on the computer all day and even reading him the e-mails is just the same as him having an account I never even knew about! Why is it the same? Because he respected my privacy so much that he never read my e-mail anyway. Yes, according to him, this makes the two situations equivalent. Of course it's ridiculous and I've told him so, and it doesn't change his determination to stick to the story.

I'm at a loss: I can't force him to tell the truth, if I leave, I hurt a whole bunch of children and throw us into financial devastation, if I stay, I am now volunteering for living with a liar who will sooner or later leave me anyway when I find myself totally unable to respect him and he notices and looks for someone who does.

Sounds like you have some tough choices, then.

Cornered - please look at the links in my signature line and see if they sound familiar to you. Especially the first one.

Also, please do an Internet search on the term "gaslighting".

Mulan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse characterised by persistent denials of fact which, over time, have the effect of causing the victim to become anxious, confused and progressively less able to trust his or her memory and perception. A variation of gaslighting, used as a form of harassment, is to subtly alter aspects of a victim's environment so as to cause discomfort. This technique is supposed to have been used by the Manson Family on their 'creepy crawler' burglaries, in which nothing was stolen but furniture in the house was rearranged. [1]

The term was coined from the 1940 film Gaslight and its 1944 remake in which this technique is perpetrated several times on the main character. The classic example in the film is Gregory turning on the gas lamps in the loft which causes the rest of the lamps in the house to dim slightly; when Paula comments on the lights dimming she's told she's imagining things.

Thanks, Mel - that pretty much sums it up.

Cornered, the point here is that your husband knows exactly what he is doing. He knows how to lie to you and manipulate you and control you so you will be kept out of the way while he pursues his double life - married at home and single at work.

His behaviour is no accident. It's not that he "doesn't understand". This is all deliberate because it lets him live a double life. The fact that he is destroying you with it will simply not register with him. He doesn't care as long as he's getting what he wants. To him, your pain and torment are YOUR problems - not his. And he sees no reason why they should be his problems.

Again, check the links below. I think they will hit a nerve with you.
Mulan

Cornered,

I’ve read your posts and want to offer you something to think about.

You said: [color:"blue"]is it humanly possible to have true intimacy with these lies and complete lack of trust always hovering in the background?[/color]

IMO it is not possible to have a loving, trusting M with a liar.

It is bananas to think that you can build love and trust on lies and deceit.

Lies and deceit accomplish nothing except withdrawal and selfish behavior. They are the main weapons that a selfish person uses to take advantage of another human being and manipulate.

If your foundation = lie; then your M = lie.

I don’t know what you’ve been reading but when you suggest that [color:"blue"] “I keep reading that men need respect.”[/color], I’d have to agree with that concept but with this healthy perspective…

Men need their W’s to recognize real accomplishment and respect them for who they REALLY are.

But I’d also have to stand firm in my belief that a man with healthy EN’s that is of good character needs to be able to respect his W. If he can’t respect you then he will always treat you less than respectfully. If he doesn’t respect himself, then he will never respect you either.

This comes full circle because if he doesn’t respect himself he won’t think positively in you for investing yourself in him.
You are NOT respecting his bullsh!t statements and attempts at manipulation here.

Be very clear on this one concept: YOU WILL ONLY RESPECT HIS ACTIONS.

Just as you would not respect the “potential” of a makeup to hide the sands of time’s effects on your face until you tried it out for yourself.

The difficulty is in the doing.

Be very aware of what his real story is and don’t allow yourself to fall for the diversionary tactic of replacing the biography of his life with his fantasy rendition without a challenge.

JMO.