This is in response to the following request from Avondale25:

Deja Vu - Could you explain this:
Quote:

"So, I lost everything I had when I met him, including all that was supposedly protected in the prenup"


How did this happen? Would it be possible to post here (or start a new one with focused title) about this? It might help others who may be going through a divorce and have a prenup. I always thought they were a little more iron-clad, so you've got me wondering about it.


[color:"red"]OK - here goes! [/color]

The burden of proof of how the prenup $$ was used is on the person who owned it. Also, the courts do not always uphold the prenup... read on!

I had a prenup that showed I had all the assets and my XH had nothing. This was in 1985 when we were married. Everything I had was to be protected, including the appreciation on any assets I had at that time. Six figures plus two houses, a new Ford Bronco... and other investments. Even as late as 1992 we had a financial planning record showing he still had nothing and I still had all the assets.

Anyway, we built our house in 1989 - using money from my assets and from the sale of my house (that was in the prenup as being mine before we were married.) I actually owned TWO houses when we were married. However, during the divorce proceedings I found out it was up to me to prove this. So, even though I could show he had no money in 1985 or 1992 - and I had sold my house in 1989 that was in the prenup as my asset, I could not prove that the specific $$ from the house I sold was the same $$ used to build the new house.

So, XH shows up at one of the mediation sessions and says out of the clear blue, "I think I'm the one who paid for it.. I'm pretty sure I got a bonus from work" - and the burden of proof is NOT on him to back up that statement but on me to prove that I am the one who paid it. Believe it or not, I was able to produce ON THE SPOT his W2 from that year showing there is no way he got a bonus. (I still can't believe I happened to have that with me at the mediation).

That's just one example... there were many. I could not prove all the things I'd spent my $$ on, that had been invested in the house. I didn't keep detailed records of everything because I trusted him! If I could have, I could have recovered all of that $$. So, the money from two houses I sold that had been invested in that house was now marital money because I couldn't trace it absolutely 100% to show the exact flow of funds from 15+ years before.

I also found out that in this state there was a judge who threw out a prenup because the person who stood to lose claimed the prenup was no longer fair. Circumstances had changed, they claimed, and therefore the prenup should no longer be enforced. So there was a precedent for throwing it out completely.

As a result we ended up settling for what we could agree to in mediation, AND what we thought realistically I could actually recover. Going to court would have cost me an additional $10K, plus the judge might have decided to throw the whole prenup out and I'd have less than I would have from mediation.

I walked away with less than 1/2 of the assets I had when I met him over 20 years earlier. The house we built has been run into the ground (apparently he had no obligation to keep MY asset in decent shape after I moved out) so is now being sold as a fixer upper (architect designed house! this just kills me.) - and he has listed it at $45K less than the appraised value becuase he does not want to make any effort to fix it or help get it sold. There is no recourse for this - so, the "marital" value drops like a rock, and I lose my share of that too. He could easily keep the house now that the D is final, fire the realtor, and fix it himself, sell for a profit, and end up with all the $$ for himself.

So, the prenup is probably worthless unless you make absolutely sure the assets are frozen somewhere and never touched. Then, they might be worth something, if some judge doesn't decide to throw it out after all that.

Deja-
So the moral of the story is to not use any protected property on new jointly owned property and that makes sense. In a long term relationship I am not sure pre-nups make any sense anyway. Somewhere this guy either was very very slick or you refused to see the red flags that were there and 20 years later he cheats you. I guess to me if you are going to marry someone you should be able to answer the question "do I trust this person with my life--literally". I have a brother and his wife who have been married nearly 40 years. They have everything separate to the nearest dime and they are happy with it being that way. They keep each other always informed about what the other is doing with thier funds but everything is separate. If there was a divorce for them there would be absolutly nothing to divide. I could not live that way. But they do trust each other. I guess trust is the central issue. Hope I didn't offend you.

One other thing- in late 2nd marriages they (pre-nups) do make sense to protect children of the first marriages if that is what the partners want. We are not talking about 20-40 years marriages either. Was your marriage a later 2nd one?

Johoman

That stinks. And in another odd twist of law: In Iowa, any inheritance money you get is yours alone. So, when my ex H inherited $250,000 he put it in our checking account, threw out all the old furniture, bought all new cars, furniture, everything. When we had married 12 years earlier, he had nothing and I owned everything. So, when we got divorced, because he had thrown out all the old stuff and bought new with inheritance money, he got to keep everything.......cars, furniture, house, etc. And I got custody of the kids.

How's that for fair?

Ann- That is the way it is in Kansas also and a lot of States. If you would have inherited the money it would have been the same for you. The luck of the draw.

At least with that money he could pay more child support.
Johoman

Yes, but... in my case, my money was from a personal injury settlement for long term medical expenses and related things. So, some of what I invested in was related to that... the house was designed as one story for me to be on crutches (which I was last winter, but in my new 2-story house, with bedroom on 2nd floor!) - and equipment for maintaining the place for chores he was going to do that I couldn't do. He now has the equipment of course, even though it was in the prenup as mine. He claims to no longer have any of it.

FYI - I had surgery last winter, and now have $45K in unpaid medical bills that were supposed to be covered by my prenup $$. He refused to pay any of these bills either, and since I incurred them after moving out, MN law says they are my responsibility. Nice, huh?



In retrospect, you are probably right. However, most everyone who knows him says he's changed radically since the early days, when everyone liked him and he got along with everyone. Both his parents have Alzheimers, his mother has early onset, and several people have suggested this is happening to him also. Who knows? I do think I can't trust my judgement of men as a result, and won't risk being wrong again. I'm just short of being totally destitute and won't do it again.




Wanna bet? That's what we did too, but MN says no, it's a community property state so all my income is marital, all my assets are marital, so are all his. And debts too - no matter whose names things are in. He wracked up $80K in credit card debt without my knowledge. The law says I allowed it, even though I had no access to his stuff.



Nope - not to worry.


Married 21 years, it was my second marriage. No kids.

Yup that stinks. How did he manage that? If it had worked that way for me, I'd have gotten all the yard equipment and then some. Did he have to prove how he paid for that stuff?

The system definitely could use some work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

In retrospect, you are probably right. However, most everyone who knows him says he's changed radically since the early days, when everyone liked him and he got along with everyone. Both his parents have Alzheimers, his mother has early onset, and several people have suggested this is happening to him also. Who knows? I do think I can't trust my judgement of men as a result, and won't risk being wrong again. I'm just short of being totally destitute and won't do it again.

Deja- You bring up an interesting point. I am a retired RN and I have worked with a number of dementia patient. At times there are personaility changes in people developing dementia (Alzhiemers et al). Peaceful nice people can be antisocial nightmares. These changes from what I seen come on slowly

Quote:

Wanna bet? That's what we did too, but MN says no, it's a community property state so all my income is marital, all my assets are marital, so are all his. And debts too - no matter whose names things are in. He wracked up $80K in credit card debt without my knowledge. The law says I allowed it, even though I had no access to his stuff.

I bet in your State if you both aggreed to keeping your on property the judge would have approved your separation aggrement. When one person wants to be a horses [censored] then all bets are off. That is why I believe so strongly in keeping most things joint. separate property in marriage I think is an invitation to disaster my brother not withstanding. Our IRA.s and SEP plans are all separatae because that is the law and our cars are titled indivaully for liability reasons, and our credit cards for the same reason.

Johoman

[color:"blue"] Deja Vu [/color] - Wow, that's pretty serious change from what I expected in a prenup situation! I'm so sorry that happened to you. Don't let bitterness creep in (because it would certainly seem understandable). Like Karona said on the AD board, "Welcome to the new start to the rest of your life".