Last week Friday I received bad news from my 20 year long friend. She informed me that she and her H are separated for 5 months now and busy with a divorce (the date for the divorce is in Nov). This was very sad an shocking news for me. It sound if there was an EA and she also discovered other things her H did wrong, lied about and kept secret from her. Their wedding anniversary was Saturday (6 years). No children. She is 7 years older than him (she 33 and he 26). She started the divorce process after her H showed unwillingness to work on himself and his problems. He was also not really committed to the marriage anymore and very negative about himself.

However, this morning she informed me that her H contacted her on Saturday and doesn’t want to carry through with the divorce and doesn’t want to lose her. He’s willing to do anything it takes to make things right; address his personal problems; go for IC etc. He wants them to give the M another chance and for them to immediately move back in with each other to start working on their problems. She also wants to try again, but feels very scared and feels very confused at this stage – especially to immediately move back in with her H. She doesn’t want to move back in right now but want him to first visit her for a while etc. to see how things goes etc., but her H doesn’t want this.

She asked my opinion and I advised her to stop the divorce process and seek all the help they can get (MC and IC), but to not move back in with her H or let him put pressure on her to move back in with each other until she feels ready and until she feel assured & convinced that her H is really making effort to win back her trust and address his personal issues. I said to her if her H is really willing to do anything it takes to make things right between them (as he said he is), he will respect her wishes, give her time and not put pressure on her to move back in with him until she feels ready to do so. I said to her I’m in favor of living together while sorting out problems and that I therefore understand her H’s POV, but that doing it under pressure while she stills feels scared & uncertain, can lead to unnecessary problems.

Did I give her the right advice? I’m convinced that they should not carry through with a divorce and that such is not a solution - especially since she and her H still have many unresolved business & feelings between them and both still love each other, but am I wrong for thinking that moving back together at this stage might be a wrong move? Especially since she feels uncertain and having fears & doubts about it and since her H has not yet actively seeking help for his internal problems?

I want to help my friend and also directed her to this website.

Any feedback on this will be highly appreciated.

For more background, please read the following thread I posted 3 years ago about my friend and her H’s marriage issues:

Please help...my friend's H is visiting strip-clubs/strippers

Please anyone I need input on this...

Well........ If they were living together under these circumstances you wouldn't advise them to split up so why would you advise them to not move back together. I would see that as a more effective way of working on their relationship/marriage. My 2c.

Hi BigK,

Thanks for your 2c.

I’ve made it very clear to my friend that I think the ideal and the most effective way for them would indeed be to move back together immediately while working on their marriage & problems, but since she feels so very scared, confused, uncertain & not totally trusting of her H’s motives and “mouth promises” at this stage, I advised/suggest to her to still stay separated for a while only until she feels more assured & convinced that her H is really making effort to win back her trust and actively making effort and seeking professional help to address his personal issues. I’ve told her that they can even start with pre-marital counseling and marriage counseling while still separated temporarily.

Any other opinions?

Suzet, your suggestions to her are ok. I know you know this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What I would recommend is she call Steve to help her make safe choices.

What I did not read is his reason. Why his hurry? Hidden agenda? That would not create a safe environment.

Warn her to make sure she recognizes WS babbble vs truthful words and actions.

Anger is a telltale of a hidden agenda. Frustration is a sign of someone who needs help. They are quite different but could appear the same. Learn to tell the difference. Steve can help.

Encourage both of them to read His needs/Her needs. Sounds like they both could use that kind of support.

It is good she has you as a friend. Keep up the good work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


take care,
L.

Orchid, thanks for your response. Yes, I know my suggestions were not bad although I still not feel totally convinced that I gave her appropriate advice about the separation and moving back together issue, and that’s why I seek opinions from the ‘wiser’ ones like you for example. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My friend also live in South-Africa and will not be able to do phone counseling with Steve, but I did point her to this marriagebuilders website. Maybe the best for her/them at this stage will be to find a good counselor in her area who specializes in marriage issues, infidelity etc.

I’m not sure about his exact reasons, the hurry and whether there are hidden agendas. What my friend did told me was that her H said he love her, don’t want to divorce and don’t want to lose her. Their divorce date is coming up the 2nd of November (next week), so I think this plays a big role in his urgency. The day he called her was also their wedding anniversary so I think emotionally that played a big role too.

My H also talked to her H on the phone recently and he does sound very sincere and it does sound if he takes full responsibility for his wrong choices of the past. I think he have some maturity issues but it sound if he’s willing to move pass that.

Me and my H care for both of them and would like to see them reconcile and build a strong & happy M. We will encourage them to find all the help (counselling, reading material etc.) they can get.

why did your friend marry a child of TWENTY years old...

the age difference in developementally standard is HUGE...

he was child
she was a grown woman...

why did she do this.....
she better look in to that issue as well.....

my twenty year old child marrying a twentysix year old ..that's one wedding I doubt I'd be attending...

ARK

Ark, I understand what you’re saying since my younger brother (who I view as my 'baby' brother) is almost the same age than her H. However, I have the following question for you:

Would you feel the same if the roles were reversed e.g. if he was 7 years older than her at the time of the marriage?

I know generally men mature slower than women (especially at that age) but I know there are always exceptions...

I must admit, their age difference was and still is a concern for me too and I think his age plays a big role in his behavior (he probably committed himself to marriage too young).

I know when he started pursuing her years ago, she didn’t want to have anything to do with him (because of the huge age difference) but eventually he convinced her that it doesn’t really matter although she originally felt very uneasy about it. I think when they started dating she wasn’t aware of his age and one couldn’t tell because he appeared much older. Also on mental and emotional level he appeared to be much older and mature. She one the other side, appeared (and still appears) much younger than her age (also on emotional level).

Suzet - you know I'm a big proponent of marriage and of recovering marriages. But I'm going to have to make some assumptions because there is not enough information in your post, or the earlier one about his "strip club" adventures, on which to really base an opinion, much less some advice.

First assumption: You know far more about their total situation than you are choosing to reveal here, and have based your advice to her on that knowledge. Therefore, don't "second guess" yourself.

Second assumption: Her husband is still a "child," in that he remains focused on "what HE wants" and "what HE fears losing."

Third assumption: Your friend still loves him, or perhaps more correctly, her perception of what she thinks she wants as "love" from a husband, but is emotionally "burned" that her original choice to marry him that has resulted in bad pain. She is currently "mad at herself" for not listening to herself originally when she thought he was "too young for her." Divorce is often the most "appealing" seeming way to "avoid" more pain.

Fourth assumption is based on the following: "He’s willing to do anything it takes to make things right."

IF he means this and is not just saying it because he is afraid and thinks this will be "what she wants to hear," then ANYTHING means anything, including waiting to move back in until some of the other "anythings" are actually happening to lend "proof" to his statement.

But don't forget that he is still "thinking like a child." This is the "first dose of reality" that there ARE consequences to all actions and that these "consequences" are a direct result of his selfishness and desire to maintain a lifestyle of a single person, rather than a married person.

When someone chooses marriage, they VOLUNTARILY give up certain "rights" that pertain to singlehood, in favor of what's best for their spouse. This is the area that his "anything" is going to be tested in. If your friend needs continued separation until SHE can believe he is sincere in his efforts to recover their marriage, then HE needs to respect her desire even if it causes him some "distress." It is time to "put up or shut up." No more time for "games" or "His desires first."

So it is my opinion that your advice was "spot on," but that you friend needs to clearly articulate the reasons and the "ground rules" that SHE needs to begin to believe that he is sincere about marriage, much less sincere about being married to her.

Remember, Recovery is in the hands of the Betrayed Spouse, not the Wayward Spouse. If he "can't abide" with the "rules and procedures" she needs, then it's an indication of his continuing immaturity and your friend needs to decide if she can "live with that" or if she needs to proceed with the divorce and potentially find a mate who DOES understand what it means to be married.

She has the right. It's that simple, even if the emotions are complex.

God bless.

yes suzet I would feel the same...

age is not just a number...it is an actual calculator of life experiences...

ie relationships
decision building processes on experiences...
experiences is life...

it also a developemental tool studied by many denoted by accomplishment... stages of development...

erickson jung...piaget...

would anyone be surprised that that 22-23 year old is visiting strip clubs.......
not really

my opinion would be the same male/female...

20 year olds are NOT the same as 26 year olds...and if and when they are...

already huge flags exist in taking on adult roles..ie marriage...

maturity has a lot to do with what we experience and what we base decisions on..

just logistically twenty year olds do not face life the same as 26 years old...there are six years in which many many different situations present and are challenged..
growth is based on learning from our bad choices...and able to learn good ones....

I would not expect my twenty year old girl or boy to be equipped to even understand the gravity of marriage....

who gets serious with someone with whom they aren't even aware of their age...???

to me it creates a hugely unequal relationship.....

ARK

Ark, I find it extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary that you find the age difference between 20 and 26 a huge gap.

I was 20 when I married my H and he was 5 years older. We are now 52 and 57 and there is no age gap at all. In fact there never was and never has been. My son is 28 and his g/f is 21. There's no age gap between them either.

One of my colleagues at work is 52 and his g/f is 28. (He was very, very divorced when he met her and had been for years - no funny business). Of the pair of them, I'd say she was the more mature (both university academics with the same interest) and they are a very, very happy couple. He has recently had a severe illness and she dealt with it and is dealing with it better than most women twice her age.

If you married at 20...that probably means you dated as pretty close to being a teenager...if you dated longer than two years...

that puts twenty 23 and 24 year olds with 17 18 and 19 year old....

not always the case..
but I for one do not believe that twenty year olds have same life experiences as 25 years old...

I was NOT the same person at 20 that I was at 25..

I don't believe that when that young there IS NOT an age gap....
28 with a 21 one year old..sorry but there's an age gap in life experience in my OPINION...

I would cringe at the thought of my son wanting to date a 21 one year old...two years shy of thirty....

it's just my opinion..I'm sure peope could post hundreds of posts begging to differ...
and people could post hundreds of posts on the same side as my opinion....

twenty and twenty seven
a lot happens between those formative years...
30 40 and 50's ..not so much...

ARK^^

I met my H when I was 18, engaged at 19, married 2 months after my 20th birthday. I had my first baby at 23 and second at 25. I was quite ready for all that. I was the same person I'd been at 20. Heck, I'm still the same person now. My son is very young for his age, his g/f is very mature. I have no problem with their ages at all.

Kids DO seem younger these days than we were. 30 the new 20 and all that.

Thanks for your thorough response FH.

I do know more about their situation than I’ve revealed here, but there are also a lot of things I don’t know. What my friend didn’t tell me was what exactly her H lied to her about and kept secret from her. Her H also made a lot of debt and kept it secret from her. When they’ve separated he left her with all the debt since he didn’t had a secure/fix income at the time (this was the case almost throughout their whole M and I know his unemployment and difficulty to get a permanent job has put a lot of stress on their M and on his self-esteem).

When her H talked to my H recently he also mentioned about “things he did wrong and lied about” but didn’t go into detail. What he did told my H was that he started to discuss his problems with a lady of the opposite sex. She is a professional psychiatrist and he said this is why he thought it was okay to talk with her, but what bothers me is that these discussions never took place in a professional capacity and he kept it secret from his W (she eventually found out). Her H also told my H he have “anger management” problems and willing to seek help for it.

The fact that these discussions with the psychiatrist didn’t take place in professional capacity and the fact that he kept it secret from his W, tells me that there was at least an EA going on. Her H denied that anything else other than “discussions of his personal problems” took place between him and this lady. From other incidents that happened in the past, I know her H really have serious “boundaries” problems with the opposite sex. Years ago I’ve shared the article on ”emotional infidelity in the workplace” with her and her H for this exact reason, but it seems her H never took it very seriously or paid much attention to it. I think he might be one of those people who are of the opinion that something is only an A if anything physical takes place. If this is the case and if his wrong perceptions don’t get resolved and corrected, I predict they will experience trouble in their M again in future. But hopefully IC will help him resolve this issue too.

Yes, I think you’re correct, but I hope he has learned from the bad choices he made and that the IC he is willing to receive will help him get to a more “mature” place. I belief “getting mature” is a choice and her H have to make this choice.

I agree with you…and this is exactly what I told me friend when I’ve said to her she must not move back together with him until she feels ready and until she feels more assured & convinced that changes are indeed taking place.

I just hope my friend will do this and clearly lay out this "ground rules" to him...

Exactly. I 100% agree.

Ark, thanks for sharing your viewpoint here. Personally I agree with Jen’s viewpoint… IMO the maturity level of people doen’t necessarily have only to do with age and/or life experience. IMO there is not a “one size fit all” regarding this. I know many people above the age of 40 (and even 50 or 60) who still act and behave like children and have never “grown up” in spite of their age, life-experience etc. etc. Contrary, I have seen people in their early 20’s who reveal a surprising amount of wisdom & insight and whose behavior, reasoning etc. are much more mature than people double (or more) their own age.

Although I have some concerns (for various reasons other than just “maturity” issues) about marriages where the woman are much older than the man (like in my friends case), I doesn’t hold the same concerns in cases where the opposite apply e.g. where the man are much older than the woman. Personally I can’t see anything wrong with a woman being 20 and the man being in his late 20’s if both are more or less on the same maturity level (like in Jen’s son and his g/f’s case).

well it's my opinion that we just can't deny human and growth and development...

as much as we try to deny deny deny ..the brain is an organ.....

that has to do certain functions....
and one is mature....
and that there are milestones in develeopment that facilitate that to form healthy human beings...
and when you meet people in their thirtys and fortys plus acting like idiots...bet their history shows some skipping or altercations in their HUMAN growth and DEVELOPMENT...

and about the age difference...
I think a twenty five year old plus something male dating a 19-20 year old child...

disgusting....fringing on power control etc.....

but hey it's all just my opinion...

and we at marriage builders ignore red flags in the begining......and continue on paths of what we want to believe rather than what it is....till it all de-rails...

ARK

Wow Ark, I can see you’re feeling very strong about this…

I don’t deny human growth and development. All I was saying is that IMO age, life-experience etc. are not necessarily the only factors that measure maturity. I think life is much more complex than that. Also keep in mind that people don’t grow and develop at exactly the same rate emotionally, mentally, spiritually etc. and these things play a role too... I know research shows that a person’s brain is still growing and developing until the age of 25, but IMO it doesn’t mean that a person can’t act, behave & reason very mature (like an adult) before that age is reached. I think if a young person don’t act, behave and reason like a “child” anymore, he/she is indeed not a “child” anymore, whether or not the brain has stopped developing or not.

Wow, I think it's a gross generalization to label all men in their mid or late twenties who are dating a lady in her early twenties as controlling, and to label all people who are still in their late teens/early twenties as “children”.

I have 2 questions for you if you don't mind:

From what age exactly don’t you view a young adult as not a “child” anymore and why?

Me and my H are friends with a couple who have a 14 year age difference. She is 45 and he 59. They are 13 years married now so she was 46 and she 32 when they married… Would you also consider that as disgusting and “controlling” too?

I just want to try and better understand your reasoning and viewpoint on this.

My friend eventually got divorced during November. Her H was not willing to turn from his wayward ways so it seems what he said prior to the divorce was just “mouth talk”. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I visited her in her hometown the past weekend (it was a long time since I last saw her). It seems she is doing relatively fine under the circumstances. She is currently on Anti D’s and I think that helps a lot too. She has just lost an enormous amount of weight. At this stage I can just offer her my friendship and moral support.

Please keep her in your prayers and also pray that her ex-H will turn from his wrong ways.

I missed this thread before. Age differences in my family are huge. In fact, my husband and I only have a 2 yr age gap and we are the odd ones out.

My nan was 12 years OLDER than my grandad.

My mum is one of four girls.
Sister number one is 75, her husband is 89
My mum is 66, dad is 79
Sister number two is 63, husband was 20 years older (dec'd)
Sister number three is 59, husband 77

My sister is 45, her husband is 59
My brother is 40, partner is 30

I broke the pattern and look what happened to me! TT