I saw this old thread mentioned. HEre is a copy and past of the content.
__________________
I think I'm going to sue Betty Crocker. It's all their fault.

I started making a cake today. I read half of the instructions, but it soon became apparent to me that they had written them for general use and not for my very special, unique circumstances. I quickly revised a few things to meet the needs of my situation.

I got some things out to do it. The recipe said that I needed 3 eggs. I only had one, and going to the store was very inconvenient. I decided just to use the one and a package of Egg Beaters.

I got out a bowl. It wasn't a mixing bowl like the instructions said. It was just a plain old soup bowl, but that should have been good enough. I mean, really, what do they want?

Since the cake takes so long to make and bake, and I didn't want to wait that long, I just kept dipping my spoon into the mix and eating it as I went along. I set the oven to 500 degrees and turned it on to preheat. I added 4 cups of olive oil and my eggs. The package said vegetable oil, but olive oil is so much better for you that I decided to substitute it.

I got out my electric mixer like the one pictured on the package and turned it on the highest level. (I mean, HELLO, I want this sooner than later!) Well, let me tell you, the stuff went flying EVERYWHERE! WTF were they thinking?! Since the mixer obviously wasn’t working, I just got out a spoon and stirred my mixture a few times.

I poured the mixture into the exact pan size that they said, and it didn’t even cover the BOTTOM OF THE PAN, so I transferred the batter to a smaller pan that was 3 inches deep. I like thicker cakes, anyway.

I put the pan in the oven, and go to watch some TV. Who wants to watch something bake? I have better things to do…

Well, 45 minutes later I go to check on my cake (cause it was NOT smelling good) and I notice black smoke everywhere! The batter had oozed all over the side of my pan and burning on the oven’s heating element! The rest of the cake was completely charred, there’s no way I can eat that. I doesn’t even look like a cake.

The box DID say to only bake it for 25 minutes, but really, should that be MY responsibility? Shouldn’t the cake just KNOW when it’s done and stop baking? Come on, it’s the 21st century.

So, here I am standing in the middle of a mess with a worthless burnt cake. My oven is almost ruined, I’ve got cake mixture on every surface in my kitchen, and I didn’t get to have my cake, let alone eat it too.

I don’t advise anyone here to buy Betty Crocker products. They are nothing but a fraudulent rip-off. Your kitchen could be ruined.

And I’m suing them. It’s all their fault.
____________________
imho, it seems to me that when you don't follow the whole recipe, the results are not going to be quite the same.

I noticed that you said you lied when she confronted you about something. What have you done to repair that?

Hang in there, I really think that the desired results are right there. I get the feeling you weren't quite prepared enough for the depth of the A or the fallout. Stay strong.

I don't post much here anymore because I'm exhausted. Exactly why I came here today amazes me because the only thread I accessed is this one...one in which I'm mentioned. Strange huh?

Anyway

Sir, that advice is from Dr. Harley's radio show and it is documented here:

Who To Expose To


Additionally,
When your wife did that, she may well have violated some professional ethics by setting herself up as an authority figure and doing her best to intimidate you in order to justify her adultery. I think doctors who use their art for personal gain...in this case, the advancement of her affair...are among the lowest of snakes. I'm really quite ignorant about the legalities or professional implications of her doing this, but I'm suspicious. You might check it out if you're interested.

HOWEVER, I do know the technique she is using when she does that is called “gaslighting.” Essentially, she’s trying to make you believe that YOU are the one who is insane (for your half-hearted exposure, for getting in the way of her adultery, etc.)


If you’re interested, here is a link to a discussion about gaslighting. I think you’ll see what your WW is doing immediately.

Gaslighting


Also, here is Mulan's thread on gaslighting:

Mulan's Thread On Gaslighting


If you’re interested in the concept and other forms of verbal abuse, just do a quick Google search to gather more information.

Finally, sir, you’re guilty of doing something too many others have done. You want to take some parts of Dr. Harley’s plan for recovery, applying those that appeal and discarding those which do not. You can’t do that! This is not a mix and match therapy to get your marriage back. Each element of Dr. Harley’s guidance for recovering is important even if it’s not obvious to all of us lay people.

I advise you to call Dr. Harley at your earliest opportunity and arrange a personal counseling, particularly since your wife is apparently using her biased knowledge of human interaction against you.

anyone else notice that there has not been a response?

I was amazed at the number of replies last night. I started working on a reply of my own last night but didn't have time to finish, so now I see even more replies. I do sincerely thank everyone who has taken the time to reply, even those throwing me under another bus for asking the question. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Let me address the replies, clarify a few points, and say a thing or three.

penalty box - Actually I did read and was aware of the disclaimer. My impression from Longhorn's thread was that the advice could be found in Surviving an Affair. If I misread, I misread. I actually was expecting someone to tell me that particular advice was actually found in another of Dr. Harley's books (and perhaps it is but no one has gotten around to posting that info). I know you're right about the haste though. If I had waited until after meeting with the pastor, I definitely would not have gone about this the same way.

Papaof3 - As far as not telling the kids anything else, that's been my approach recently. You'll find other posters down the thread that disagree. I appreciate the advice coming from someone whose parents did divorce and knows the impact that had on you. I DO know now who the other man is (and will talk about that further below). It's also looking that while you're advocating a 180 others are still talking Plan A. I can definitely promise you that I'm not doing any begging, pleading, or imploring (and haven't been).

womanoffaith5 - Thanks for the advice of Be Still. Before pushing her for the guy's name (before I figured it out myself), I prayed a lot. I really experienced peace while talking to her and have felt at peace ever since. That contrasts with my extreme anxiety the first few days after discovery. The "letters" are out for sure. I always felt better composing my thoughts beforehand, talking to her without referring to what I had written, and giving her what I had written when done. A week ago I told her I was ready to talk about the things she had wanted me to think about the previous week. She never got around to being ready that Sunday, so I did leave the "letter" in her car the next morning with a handwritten note telling her why. That night she was pretty distraught and hit me with "I'm barely hanging on. It's all I can do to go to work. Don't give me any more of those letters." That's the last one from me. Except for me confessing my lie about others who knew, all discussions (which is way too soft of a term for how things go sometimes) have been initiated by her.

Bellevue - I'm still a little torn about involving my adult children. What's done is done though, and I'm not going to beat myself up about it. Their aid was mainly emotional support for me. I did appreciate the oldest daughter's thoughts about her mother (emotionally absent and very controlling). The kids obviously saw her in the past in a totally different way than I did. I've been doing a lot of Plan A and have been upbeat, but I have thrown in some unexpected things (like telling her I was going to join one of the hospital affiliated "health clubs").

Mulan - Actually, I didn't need my kids to help stop the affair. When she finally admitted the affair (after I was relentless in knocking down her excuses and rationalizations), this was the next day after I told her that I thought she was having an affair. That first time ended with "Ok Ok" from her, so not admitting and not denying. When I got home the next night she hit me up for proof. I pulled a copy of her most recent cell phone bill and her rationalizations started again. Having read a lot here at MB, I was having none of it. I told her that I really wanted to believe her but that the things she was saying are the same things (lies) that someone having an affair would say. I finally asked her if she wasn't having an affair, why didn't she just say that the night before. Finally, this quiet voice said "I was afraid you would hurt the family." - Okay, back up now. - "You are having an affair?" -"Yes" - "And you thought I would contact his family?" - "Yes" - After that she tried to light into me about how awful I had been to her over the years, but I let her know that didn't make an affair okay. Our realtor rang the bell about then, so my wife went off to compose herself while I answered the door. Later, she was back in quiet voice mode so I asked her how long (1 year, what I had suspected) and if this was her first (yes, I actually tend to believe her on this, but that doesn't matter right now). If I had waited just a few days, I wouldn't have needed to tell my daughters in order for them to potentially put pressure on my wife. As far as shutting up in the face of her anger, I haven't. Her anger was the night I told her about the others who knew, and I pretty much gave as well as I got that night. She would start talking about my EA in 1986 and what I had said to her, but I would cut her short and tell her there is a BIG line she crossed, so don't even begin to compare our actions. Based on the replies here, it looks like she was just playing head games the next night. I WAS concerned that I had done something that would mess with our daughters' relationship with her if down the road she has returned to her senses and we are still married. If we're not, I have ZERO interest in protecting her reputation with them.

bigkanuna - Where did I say exposure and her anger was worse than her adultery? My problem is telling my daughters thinking that Dr. Harley advocated that in the book. I've now introduced a side issue. Now, there is no doubt my wife's head is off somewhere else. She obviously believes the affair issue is just between us and that it isn't fair to involve others. Well, what's fair about adultery? I have no problem involving anyone else that either needs to know (and this is leading to talking to the MOM's wife) or that can help me in some way. On the other hand, I do hope for a future with my wife. If that happens, then in my mind, the fewer people who know the better. Her anger doesn't really phase me, but if I have violated some taboo by telling our daughters (a taboo known to all women but few men, perhaps), then I would consider that a concern (but a concern separate from the MAJOR problem of adultery). It's pretty clear to me now from reading the replies that there is no such commonly understood "rule" of never tell the kids, even grown kids, what is going on. My wife got pretty strident when I told her that I was meeting with our pastor. I should have asked her first. (Yeah, just like she asked me before starting the adultery.) I asked her if she would be willing to talk to him. Nope, you got to him first, all us psychiatrists know of the influence the first party has, that's why we won't treat two spouses, even years apart; now I can never go back to my church, the one I grew up in. Well, she can spout that all day long, it doesn't phase me at all.

moveforward - Well, I guess one of the keys here is exposure. What's the purpose of exposure? I've exposed the affair, she verified that it existed. Isn't that exposure? Once it is exposed, do I need to continue to expose it to more and more people? If those people are allies in putting pressure on her to end the affair, what purpose does that serve if the affair has actually ended? (I'll address whether the affair has ended later.) There is not a snowball's chance that my wife will write a no contact letter. As far as she is concerned, she has told me that the affair is over, she doesn't love me, and she won't continue to live with me. She has zero interest in working on this marriage. No, as far as no contact is concerned, that ball is in my court (and I'll address that below). As far as meeting emotional needs, I'm doing all I can. The only love busters are adultery related as there is at least one more verse to be sung. I do appreciate you mentioning that Dr. Harley has talked on his radio show about telling children in order to break up an affair. I would still like to see some place he wrote it though. (Are radio show transcripts available?)

believer - It is good to know that her reaction is common. She may get over her recent anger, but I wouldn't count on it. This woman apparently holds everything in. She's been angry for the last 20 years about what I said to her (don't love, don't think ever did). She's used to living with anger and may well want a little more fuel. We've got about 5 weeks left living under the same roof, so there isn't a lot of time left to keep doing Plan A (but that is pretty much what I'm doing now). Time will tell what interactions we'll have thereafter, but I can't count on much.

Mulan - Good perspective on the power issues as well as the other points. I do believe that there is a part of her that knows her guilt in this. I'm way past taking any blame. Sure, when you look at the affair there had to have been needs that I wasn't meeting (guilty on that), but I don't let her pull justification baloney on me, I always challenge her when she tries to go there.

Plank - Thanks for your words. I do know that it helps a lot when you hear from so many here who have been through the same thing and can almost predict the words the WS will use. When the final chapter is written about our marriage, if that turns out to be "All over. The end.", I'll be fine because I promise you that I will have done everything I can. I am being proactive and will continue to be (although what form that will take when we are in separate households isn't clear yet).

Cymanca - See my response to bigkanuna above.

KaylaAndy - I think you and Mulan are right about this, it's good to have an outsider's perspective of what went on. I pretty much plan to (or at least hope to) avoid discussions like that, but if she wants to talk I plan to always be willing to. If we get into another one, I think I'll tell her that I think her subconscious motivation is to attempt to manipulate my thinking. Whatever she should say, I won't take as gospel. I really do want to stay out of such conversations because you're right, she does this for a living and I'm in a no-win situation. The money angle doesn't bother me (at least no consciously <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). She didn't start medical school until mid-life. She graduated in 1998 and finished her residency in 2002. For years I was the one earning 4 or 5 times as much as she. Now granted she could attempt to manipulate me via money, but I could always just stop paying any bills and see if the possibility of bankruptcy for the two of us would make her back off. I promise you that bankruptcy would bother her a LOT more, she is a lot more into material possessions.

MrWondering - Interesting thoughts. Actually, I think the affair is probably over at the moment but since she still sees him when she works out could flame back up very easily. That's why I'll be forcing the issue shortly. After she told me that affair was over, she was VERY dejected looking for days (grief? further depression?) I can't say that it hasn't resumed though at this point. I suspect that he and she feared my telling his wife and I wouldn't be surprised if they talked about starting back up later. It will be very interesting if he has done this before (I would bet almost anything that he has and also that he told my wife the apparently standard line of only one affair previously) and his wife has warned him of dire consequences if caught again. Most of the visits were of the after 5:00 variety (talked about below) and she hasn't been coming home late, but she has a lot of freedom in the afternoons if she wants it. Actually, I do like her bridge of trust analogy. She wanted to know if I would feel safe driving my car back across a bridge that had collapsed but been rebuilt. I told her that only a fool would feel safe if the bridge was built back the same as before because obviously if it collapsed once it could again. The only way to feel safe would be if the bridge were rebuilt stronger.

Orchid - I expected exposure to give her reasons to end the affair. She knew nothing about our daughters' knowledge when the affair (apparently) ended.

MelodyLane - When my wife picked psychiatry as her field, my first thought was that at least she wasn't a sex therapist. My second thought was to remember to never tell her anything I dreamed, no matter how innocent. As far as being bullchit, I feel sure she really believes what she told me. As far as her reaction, it was specifically because I told our daughters. Was that exposure necessary given that the affair ended before our daughters said anything to their mother? It has been a distraction from the real issue I need to work on, making sure that the affair has ended. Now, maybe the kids should know and maybe not. I see some for (mainly) and some against in this thread. I will ask our oldest daughter in the near future if she would rather known or not known about the adultery. I'm curious.

eldente - Nothing like some Alan Parsons' Project is there? The first time I used the term psychobabble (years ago) my wife couldn't believe I had ever heard of it. She was always of the classical music persuasion, not rock & roll.

ForeverHers - You have no idea what your post meant to me (so I'll tell you - A LOT). Also the facts of your situation sound so overwhelming worse than mine, it is VERY (can't emphasis that enough) encouraging to read that you have gone through Recovering into Recovery. To answer your questions, yes my wife is a Medical Doctor, so Psychiatrist is the speciality. Yes, we are both Christians of the born again persuasion (I at age 12, she a little younger at her church). I don't want to lose her or the marriage, but I'm not really afraid. Way back in September, before the thought of an affair was even on my radar screen, I came across some Bible verses that have given me great encouragement. I carry them in my shirt pocket everywhere. The verses are Proverbs 16:9 (I'm doing proactive planning for sure, but I do know that the Lord is directing my steps, so when things don't go the way I planned, I don't get discouraged), Proverbs 3:5-7 (I'm looking for that straight path and remembering that I can't rely on my own understanding, I need to trust God), and especially Jeremiah 29:11-13 (God's plans for me are for welfare, not calamity, to give me a future and a hope). I truly believe that despite any Plan A or Plan B or Plan XYZ, it's going to take God to change her heart. She may respond, she may not. I'll continue to try and do my best. If we're never together again as man and wife, I do look forward to seeing her again in Heaven. (You have no idea how many times I came so close to tears as I wrote those things.) As far as her reestablishing a relationship with God, that may be a long time coming (but surely must happen). Two Sundays back she told me that she didn't feel comfortable going back to her church since I had "told the pastor." Right, like he told everyone. I asked her about visiting a different church with me, but she wasn't interested. We visited our oldest daughter last weekend (wonderful to see our first grandchild, 9+ months old now), so church was out. There are 5 Sundays left before we must vacate the house, she is on call at least 2 of those, will be at a convention in New Orleans 1 of them (got to make sure the MOM isn't there too), and the last Sunday before moving may be pretty full. There will be at most two more opportunities to go to church with me before separation. She doesn't need to be in church to reestablish her relationship with God. Going or not going isn't a make or break deal, but going one of those Sundays would be encouraging. We've always gone (with her sister's family) to Christmas Eve services, so that may be the next possibility. I pray that it doesn't come to this, but I think it may well take a crisis in her life (instead of in mine) to wake her up enough to turn to the Lord. Time will tell about everything, of course, but I know that there at least a dozen people (and probably more who don't know about the adultery) praying for both of us. That's a BIG plus in my book. Again, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.

Eagle15 - Thanks for your points too. As far as exposure, I want enough to make sure the affair is over and has little chance of restarting. I'll do a search for reverse babble, just the name alone sounds interesting.

Papaof3 - Every time I think I've read all the posts, more show up. You're absolutely right about the kids not being my counselors. I'll be using our pastor as my only real counselor (whether in person or by bouncing questions to him via email). I have no doubt I can pick up some good ideas (and a lot of emotional been-there heard-that-before watch-out-for-this support too) here at MB, but he'll be my counselor.

fiightingalone-again - Nice little story, sounds very applicable here. As far as repairing the lie, I apologized when I told her about the lie and named names of those who knew. That was the night of the hysterical crying, etc. I had copies of the emails that I gave her (and read parts of VERY loudly to he at the time). I didn't mention it previously, but the next night she wanted to see the emails I had told her about. She thought that there were a bunch of emails and that I had copies of all of them. No, my conversations were on the phone or in person. Only the single email (telling each person that I was telling my wife about the contact plus saying much more) to each person was in there. She had me read her one (and commented afterwards that it was actually good but she had doubts about how blackly I had painted my 1986 actions).

Longhorn - Thanks for the response. Finally a link. I don't have time to look at it now, but I will ASAP. Thanks for the gaslighting threads too, those should be enlightening.

Send me on my way - Okay, go I will. Just go away, your "response" wasn't a response. I was composing a reply last night when there were only 8 replies but couldn't finish. I've been working a LONG time on this reply today and more than once saw another post that I wanted to respond to. Our internet connection has been flaky this afternoon, so I've already failed in one attempt to post (which was just before Longhorn's post).


Okay, done with the replies to everyone (unless another post shows up before I can post), so time for a few of my own thoughts. First let me say something that I didn't mention before. When my wife was playing head games on me and I told her that ending the affair by pressure from (among others) children, she told me she wanted to see that in writing. Now that I can't find it in writing (in a book anyway), that could be a problem. However, what is coming should take the focus off that (plus some of you have given some thought to things to tell her

If you've read my replies, I think you'll see that I have issues with exposure in terms of how much is enough. Right now (without thinking, reading, and praying more), I would come down on the side of phased exposure (something I don't believe was mentioned). Start with those who could best put the pressure on to stop the affair and add others until you get the results. I don't want the National Enquirer coming down for an expose. In my case though, this is pretty moot. My next step in exposure will probably be what many (most? all?) would have advocated as the first step - MOM's wife.

The discovery of the affair was an accident. I've always paid the cell phone bills. On Friday, 9/29, I was paying my wife's bill on-line. I'll usually look to see how many minutes she has used so I'll know if the cell phone plan needs to change. I haven't paid any attention to the call details. This time I glanced at the details and noticed a 48 minute incoming call. That caught my eye, so I looked at all the calls. I saw numerous calls to a couple of numbers. Some were one or two minute calls, but many were longer. I saw calls at all times including some made while driving to her work (so before 8:00am), many during the day, some in the afternoons, some after 5:00pm. Using Google I checked out the various numbers called. One number was that of the physical therapy office where she does her workouts. The other was the number for a massage therapist. Further internet research showed that the second number had the same address as the PT office. A little more revealed his name to be Richard. Hmmmm. I had physical therapy there for 2-3 weeks to restore motion without pain to an arm after I had a radial head fracture. When my wife was having problems with her neck, I enthusiastically recommended that office. There was a Richard who worked there. Richard isn't the physical therapist, he is one of the two guys who help over on the "gym" side. After the therapy worked in strengthening specific neck muscles, my wife decided to stay on and use the facility for workouts as it is just minutes from her work. Richard and the other fellow over the course of several days power washed and restained our detached deck in the summer of 2005 (as they do handyman type work on the side). When we were getting our house ready to sell, Richard came over to tear down and remove a fence in the back yard that needed to go plus hauled off the greenhouse the fence hid. That was in May or June. Coincidentally (or perhaps providentially) I met one of our new neighbors in late August or early September while checking my mail early one evening. We talked for about 15 minutes. In the course of the conversation she mentioned that the handyman who did some work on her house had looked across at our house and said "I think I did some work on that house." His name was Richard. I asked where he worked and then we talked about that physical therapy facility as she also knows the owner. At the time I thought Richard's comment very odd since he had done work there twice, had been there only 3 or 4 months earlier, and my wife worked out at the PT facility several times/week. I filed that away in the back of my mind.

After looking at the cell phone bill, I started putting two and two together. I could rationalize that someone there had a family member with substance abuse or psychiatric problems that they talked to my wife about, but then I check another bill and saw the same pattern. I put all of that on hold for a while. I had learned just a week or so earlier what an emotional affair was, realized that I had one in 1986, reexamined the things I told my wife in 1986 in light of the EA, and felt BAD real BAD. That was the first time I had cried in decades. On Labor Day my wife had told me that I had an affair in 1986, something that I immediately denied. Once knowing about EAs, I knew that I had to apologize to my wife and ask her forgiveness. I did this with a lot of tears on Sunday night, 10/01. We talked about other things too. At one point my wife asked me why I was "acting better" of late. I'm sure she was looking for the "you gave me a wakeup call" answer and was ready for her "yes, but you never wake up for more than 2 or 3 weeks, so you're not fooling me." In the course of my explanation about problems with projects, priorities, etc. my wife let it slip (almost gloating) that I had ADD and I got the opportunity to tell her about my meds that I had been on for 2 weeks. Things weren't magically better afterwards, but I felt better since I had apologized. She still was more than willing to beat me up (or get me to beat me up) about what a bad thing I had done in 1986 and about everything unloving thing I had said or done (or not done) since then. Thus began the longest week of my life.

On Tuesday, 10/03, I had an appointment to talk to our pastor. I had emailed him info about everything I could think of so that we could cut to the chase when we met. I didn't pull any punches about the EA or the things I said to my wife at that time. Part of what we talked about was my desire to have open and honest communications with my wife. He pointed out that if I had some things hiding in the shadows, like my suspicions of an affair, then I wasn't really having everything in the light. He recommended that I consider asking her about my suspicions. My fears would either be relieved or confirmed. If confirmed, the whole dynamics of our situation would change as no longer would the focus be on my lackings. He also loaned me a James Dobson book, Love Must be Tough (or some such). That book is somewhere between Plan A & Plan B (but closer to B). You let the spouse know you're working on yourself, not the relationship or them, and you make sure you're not pursuing them. That supposedly will get the attention of some spouses. What the pastor said really resonated with me, so I went home, made some notes on what I wanted to say, read the book and made some more notes, and typed up a page worth of my thoughts. My wife got home a little after 8:00. She goes to a clinic out of town (about 45 minutes from our house) on Tuesday afternoons. She told me that she had stopped at a cafeteria on the way home, so she wasn't hungry (and that had made her a little later). While she was in the shower I checked her cell phone and wrote down the 6:10 and 6:33 phone calls to one of those two numbers. To me that meant she had left no later than 6:10 (perhaps earlier), driving straight home would have gotten her here by 7:05 or 7:10, but she was home an hour after that (which was too long for just stopping at a cafeteria). She had unaccounted for time. I also checked her pager and saw 4 or 5 pages from one of the other of those numbers. I stepped into the bathroom to confront her while she was drying her hair. She played one of her psychiatric games of answering a question with a question. "Why would you think that?" - "What are you saying?" - etc. - I did not back down and then threw out the calls from that very night. This is the night that ended with "Ok Ok," whatever that meant. The next night, Wednesday, 10/04, was the confirmation. Thursday, 10/05, was a day of high anxiety (tight chest, shortness of breath) for me (and was the first of two nights that I slept in a different bed). Our oldest daughter called that night to tell us about what our granddaughter was doing now. I talked to her about 10 minutes before taking the phone to my wife in another room. Our daughter in passing mentioned doing nothing but office work on Friday, so I asked if I could call her if I wanted to. I did call her on Friday, 10/06. Saturday night, 10/07, our #2 daughter was at our house and I talked to her while driving to pick up at a theater her brother who was in for the weekend (and I bet he wonders why it took so long to get there). On Monday, 10/09, I talked to our pastor again and he advised pressing for the name. At that point I figured it was Richard, but realized that the phone line might be available all over the (small) facility, so I couldn't rule out at least two others. Tuesday night, 10/10 she told me the affair was over, she was still extremely down when we went to a local festival that Friday night, 10/13. I really do think it was over at that point (and may still be) but she is still using the gym over my (written but never verbalized) wishes.

Since my wife's cell phone bills are tax deductible, I've kept them. I looked back over all of them. I can pinpoint to the day when the affair probably started (based on a BUNCH of phone calls starting the next day). I can see some of the nights she visited him somewhere before she came home as I see a call to one of the numbers after 5:00 and other calls for returned medical pages for a few hours (meaning she wasn't at home when paged). Sometimes there would be another call to the number at the end or the next morning (no doubt talking about how wonderful it all was). Richard dropped the ball when he called my wife after 6:30 one evening from his home phone. She had gone to a rehearsal for something (I looked on the calendar in her purse), so he was calling before the 7:00 start. There is a person in town with the same name, so this was the first I knew that he lived about 20 minutes north of town. I paid my money and ran a background check on him. No criminal activity showed up, but I know about his first marriage (ended 4/17/01) and the name of his 2nd wife (although no marriage date was found).

I think her "housecall" talk with me was at least in part her attempt to change the dynamics again, to get the focus off the affair, and get it on me as having done her a terrible wrong by telling others what was going on, particularly our daughters. Well, the next move is mine.

I've read the threads about whether to tell the other spouse or not. I wouldn't wish this pain on anyone (although I'm not having real problems with it now as I've put that affair off to the side as something not to dwell on since it can only be addressed if we begin recovering). I've thought and prayed about it. There is no doubt in my mind that the other spouse must be told. All it really took was me asking myself if I would have wanted to be told if the situation were reversed. Would to God that someone had told me about this long ago instead of me stumbling upon it a year later. So no, telling her won't be a fun activity, but I'll do it. I'm still not sure about telling his employer. If I get him fired, I've possibly screwed up the lives of his twin high school seniors. I also run the risk of him moving in with my wife 12/01, but I can't see how she would handle that with our son coming in from college just a few weeks later. I'm still working on that, plus that puts my wife still going to the facility (probably) but one or more people knowing what was going on. (I bet there are already those over there who at least suspect, but maybe not.) The last thing I need if the freaking physically fit owner, who happens to be going through a divorce now, hitting on my wife since he figures she would be available/looking for a shoulder to cry on. If anyone has thoughts on the employer angle, feel free to jump in. I can also complain to the state massage association (he was President recently) since this violates their code of ethics, but I don't know what proof they require (and I have none). I would love to force him out of state (and believe he came here from Texas some years back). If I knew what church he attended (and I believe he at least calls himself a Christian), I would consider talking to the pastor there. I could probably figure out the church if I just called several in that area to see if he was a member. The other tempting thing is to (calmly) pay him a visit. I'll could tell him to tell his wife and have her call me plus to figure out a way to never contact my wife again. If not, I'll tell his wife. As much as I want to look him in the eye and tell him how much I appreciate (not) the fact the he (not forgetting my wife's part) further complicated what was already a complicated situation, I lean towards starting with his wife (and would welcome opinions on that too) and not talking to him at all.

Again, thanks to everyone, hopefully I've cleared up what has been going on plus my concerns about that danged Greyhound bus. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I was so concerned about getting the post in before our internet connection went south again that I couldn't finish proofing and had to ignore some typos I saw when previewing the post.

BT, good to hear from you - but you've still got some misconceptions here.


No. "Exposure" does not mean "expose to the WS that you know about the affair." It means that you Expose the behaviour of the WS and the OP to spouses, close friends, employers and co-workers - people who have good reason to know and who have very, very likely been protecting the cheaters and telling themselves that that's okay since you don't know anyway. Exposing the affair to them blows a hole in their fantasy, too, and forces things to change in a big way.


Sometimes. It's often advised to start with a small circle (like the OP's spouse/partner, to the boss if the infidels work together, etc.), and then widening the circle if needed.


Then you can be sure the affair is ongoing, no matter what WW tells you.


Please be advised that this is straight out of the WS script. Try not to worry about it right now. This is mostly a reaction to your (very successful) exposure of her affair.

The same is true for her saying she's been angry at you for 20 years, etc. etc. This is called "rewriting history" and is also out of the WS script. Hey, if she said you were a great guy and she was madly in love with you, she'd have a pretty hard time justifying her affair, now wouldn't she?


Again - you're misunderstanding something here. You don't "tell children in order to break up an affair," although there's no doubt that it can be helpful.

No - you tell children the age-appropriate truth because children deserve the truth.

All children over the age of 4-5 know that *something* is terribly wrong here, and if nobody talks about the elephant in the room they will grow up with some very strange ideas about what is normal and acceptable in a marriage.

Almost worse is saying something like "Well, Mommy and Daddy just aren't getting along right now, so we're going to separate." That's a crock and the kids know it - they'll get the idea that people who once loved each other enough to get married simply fall out of love and "don't get along" for NO REASON AT ALL - and that the only cure for this is separation, thereby reinforcing the idea that closeness is bad for marriages and lots of separation and alone time is good.

It's not good. Nothing ruins marriages faster than too much "alone time". So tell the kids the truth. Respect them enough to tell them that "Your mother is dating another man. I would like to work on our marriage but she refuses to stop seeing him. That is intolerably painful to me. That is why things are so bad right now."

I do agree with you and with PapaOf3 that you should not lean too heavily on older or adult children for support, or discuss details, or anything like that. But that's not what we're suggesting.

Just tell children the truth and let the fallout land on the heads of those who deserve it most.
Mulan

Don't talk to him. Talk directly to his wife. If you warn him he will likely try to head you off as a crazed jealous husband of a client of his. Forewarned is forearmed.

If you do it in person be sure to have your guard up. Don't get to personally involved with her. She's going to be the ultimate damsel in distress. Your job is to inform her about the truth of her life and be available for follow up questions.

A very good friend of mine had a revenge affair with the OM's wife that ruined his chances at recovery. Shaden (a poster herein) also had OM's wife pursue/corner him in the attempt to have a revenge affair. They are uber-motivated by the idea of getting revenge against their spouse AND your spouse. Just warning you.

Exposing him to his church, employer and the state boards may follow later. Let's see what happens. How fast your wife finds out will be a good indication of how connected they still are. She will be furious again.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- since the affair has gone on a year...there is a chance she already knows and failed to tell you. Good luck, anyway.

(((((BetrayedToo)))))

Please accept a brotherly hug from another 55. I’m betting you are feeling quite alone emotionally and overwhelmed by the uncertainty of the future.

I’m going to talk about some of the things you have written, as I am slowly beginning to understand a little more about your situation, though I am still unclear about what your wife is using as the “trigger” or “justification” for seeking someone else to meet some of her Emotional Needs. If you have not done the Emotional Needs Questionnaire yet, please do so. If she won’t do one, do one for her, filling it out “as if” you were she.

Before I get started, because I may some things that may be “tough” to hear right now, let me give you my email address in case you’d like to discuss some things privately or if you would like some pamphlets that our Marriage Counselor gave us when we began counseling.

The address is mbforeverhers@yahoo.com



Okay, let’s begin.

WHY is the house being sold?

Who’s idea is it to separate and when did that idea get presented?

This is sounding more and more like an “exit affair.”

Get immediately, or sooner, a book called Torn Asunder by Dave Carder. It is written from a Christian standpoint and was one of the most important books I read when I needed information on how to deal with something that I NEVER thought my wife would do.

Here’s the first “hard thing,” but you need to know it in order to be “forewarned” and prepared emotionally, things are likely to get a lot worse between you two, and perhaps even uglier, before they get better.

Your marriage IS over already. She has decided that. But she doesn’t “answer to you,” she, as a born again believer, answers to God.

She NEEDS to have Christian counsel and witness, so is she a member of your church? If so, you need to speak to the Pastor about a Matthew 18:15-20 intervention.

At this point YOUR focus needs to be on two things that are NOT part of Plan A or of recovery efforts.

1. Obedience to God’s Word and humble submission to God. YOU have the RIGHT to a divorce, she does not. God is clearly in your “corner,” but He is also a member of your marriage covenant. As such, she can “Run” but she can’t “hide” from God (sort of like Jonah).

2. Confronting sin with love. Remember, as hard as it may be to accept at times, we are all sinners. So make sure that you make it clear that you stand as a husband who is “in Christ.” As Christ reminded the men who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery, none of us is “without sin.” Furthermore, He did NOT condone the actions of the woman, He told her to “leave her life of sin.” Repentance requires a “turning away from sin.”


Right now you have what appears to be a “knowledge gap.” You KNOW there is an affair, but you know few details. So snoop, investigate, gather evidence.

Because there is a “coldness of heart” on your wife’s part, seek good legal counsel in preparation for a potential divorce. In our State, a 1 year “separation” is required prior to the granting of a divorce. Part of that process is a filing for “cause” and the appropriate amount of alimony that she will owe you (since she makes some 4 times the amount of income you do).

Next, investigate your State’s position (you can ask the attorney about this) on an Alienation of Affection suit against the OM. Our State still has “Teeth” in that law, but most no longer do. Regardless of “teeth” or not, make it “part of the plan” that you COULD use against the affair. The idea is that they don’t “get away with it” without some consequences for their choices.

Absolutely find out as much as you can about the OM, especially his name, where he lives, his wife’s name, what church they attend. The reason is very simple, you are “at war” for your marriage. “War” is not fun under any circumstance, but you are fighting a “two front” war and can only surrender or fight in a war that has been thrust upon you. The “fronts” of this war are your marriage and your wife’s soul. Your marriage is severely wounded right now, but it CAN recover. Your wife’s soul is a another matter, because she may not actually be saved (I believe that one who has truly accepted Christ as their Savior CANNOT lose their salvation, but I also believe along with James that “I will show you my faith by my works,” i.e., what I DO, is indicative of whether or not someone has truly surrendered their life to God in Christ). The reason I say this is very simple. The Scripture is quite clear and unambiguous about adultery. Unrepentant adulterers will NOT be in heaven.

“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? [/u]Do not be deceived[/u]: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, NIV emphasis added)


It is beyond doubt that adultery is prima facia proof of either a backslidden believer who is caught up in, and blinded by, sin OR is a person who NEVER was truly known by Christ.

[color:"red"] “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!’” [/color] (Matthew 7:22-23, NIV, emphasis added)


So let’s assume for now (you are in a better position to actually know your wife and what her relationship has been with God) that your wife is the former, a backslidden, ensnared by sin, believer. If that is the case, Christ goes looking for those who have “wandered away” from the flock, He FINDS them, and He LEADS them back to the safety of the flock. Having said that, it does not “relieve you” of your responsibilities as husband in your marriage, or your responsibilities as a believer to witness for the Lord.

Therefore, “standing for God” begins with you, who in meekness, but strong in the Lord, must first talk with your wife about how adultery is seen by God, forbidden by God, and is something that must be repented of because GOD has said so, regardless of whether or not you two remain married. Until there IS conviction of sin and repentance of that sin FIRST to God and then to you, there can be NO forgiveness of the sin of adultery. Unrepentant adulterers WILL NOT be in heaven. So you need to ask her what she thinks God thinks about her actions and is she willing to be obedient to God’s commands [/b]regardless[/b] of how she may be feeling.

I said earlier that this is going to be a very difficult and trying time for you, so let me give you my “life verse” that got me through the tough times. Philippians 4:13. “I can do all things through him (Christ) who gives me strength.” You have the indwelling Holy Spirit and God’s unlimited power, strength, and resources to call upon in the “darkest hours.” You are NOT limited to your own strength or your own finite power.

Add to that God’s promise to His children in Romans 8:28, “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” WE may not know what or why something is happening, but we KNOW that God does and we know that God is faithful to ALL of His promises and WILL, according to HIS timetable, use all the circumstances in our lives to work good in our lives. Understand that does not mean that your marriage will recover, but it does mean that YOU are held in God’s hand and He WILL help you no matter what circumstances you must face, be it a recovered marriage or a divorce.


Okay, let’s return for a minute to the “exposure” issue. You have a responsibility to the OM’s wife to inform her of what is going on, with love and sensitivity. But she NEEDS to know that her husband is an adulterer, and you need to put her and her marriage in God’s capable hands also, since we each face God individually. You also have a responsibility (though it WILL trigger great rants of anger in your wife) to destabilize the affair. That destabilization is done through exposing the “darkness” to the “light of day.” Getting the OM’s wife to potentially intervene destabilizes their “cushy private fantasy world” with REALITY. There ARE consequences to all actions, and adultery (despite what they are telling themselves), does not occur in a vacuum or in secret indefinitely.

There IS a reason why your wife is angry about the exposure you have already done. Light drives away darkness and truth is the enemy of deceit and dishonesty. Your wife KNOWS this. She KNOWS her actions are wrong and is afraid of what others will “think of her.” No kidding. The “Fun” of adultery begins to fade rapidly when the light of truth and God begins to focus on “evildoers.” “Excuses” and “justifications” don’t “cut it” with God. He sees to the heart and there is NO deceiving God. As a believer, he KNOWS the 7th Commandment FORBIDS adultery, but she is believing the lie of Satan that “God didn’t really mean what He said” just as Eve believed the lie. Sin IS deceptive and “feels good,” initially and as long as she can maintain the “fantasy world” it will continue to feel good to her. “Sincerity of belief” is common, but it does NOT mean that the “belief” is right. Many who so believe are “sincerely wrong,” and God has not been shy about letting us know that the TRUTH really is.


You said; “I want to rebuild "the bridge of trust," to use my wife's analogy.” I need you to understand and accept that while rebuilding trust is vital to a good marriage, you are nowhere close to that point yet. “Blind Trust” is gone for good. Trust itself can only be EARNED, over time, wherein trustworthy behavior is maintained, especially when you are not together. Trust is, essentially, the ability to predict someone’s behavior in various circumstances even if you are not around and temptations occur. So place “trust” as one of the goals, but not one that is likely to be realized for a very long time.

Here is the operative “thing” that will get you through this too.

God has COMMANDED husbands to love their wives but God has not commanded wives to love their husbands. Therefore, it is the responsibility of husbands to see to it that there IS love in their marriage. The idea I have spoken about is “give before, and in order to, receive.” The concept of the Love Bank is similar. Meeting someone’s Emotional Needs WILL result in reciprocal “feelings” of being in love. Meeting someone’s Emotional Needs WILL result in the rebuilding of Trust, because the focus will be off of “self” and on our spouse’s needs. And “trusting me” is a universal need that we all have.


I have to spend a minute on “fogtalk” and your wife’s attempts to fool you and control you. Here’s the part I want to focus on:

“The next night she was calm. About 10:00 my wife the psychiatrist paid me a housecall. She talked about 45 minutes explaining about power, control, and bullying. She would set up hypothetical situations and then ask me what did the person saying something really mean. She told me that I told the others in order to humiliate her.”

Let’s talk to her about the NOT SO hypothetical situation of what God thinks about her adultery. “Word games” and “humanistic reasoning” have no place with God. God is the one who DETERMINES “right and wrong,” not us. We cannot “twist” what God has said to “justify” our sinful actions, nor can we try to “guilt” someone else into “allowing us to sin with impunity.” YOU need to focus on God’s Word and NOT the words of any man (or woman), much less the mental gymnastics of someone actively seeking ways to maintain their sinful lifestyle. “Wrong,” like gravity, is established by God and is independent of any “sincere belief” or “sincere entitlement fantasy.”


I’ve given you a lot to read here, but let me give you links to my first two threads of some 4.5 years ago when I was where you find yourself today. Perhaps you will find some comfort and understanding and hope in them, as I really thought my marriage was hopelessly lost and only had the one very thin, but unbreakable, thread connected to Jesus to hold onto for sanity and hope.

First thread : Help needed


Second thread : Miracles happen when you are obedient to God


And here’s a third thread from about a year later that you might also find helpful:

Third thread : “Withdrawal – Wh...ced it & how to deal with it”


Lastly, if you’d like a copy of the pamphlet “What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour?, drop me an email and I’ll send it to you.


One final thought, when your wife is ready to end the affair and try recovery (however reluctant she may feel), I would strongly recommend JOINT Marital Counseling with a counselor trained in Nouthetic Counseling. This is especially needful in your case because your wife is a Psychiatrist and “word games” and “mind games” and “Scripture twisting” need to have a competent counselor trained in biblical counseling for Christians. If you need a link to the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors, let me know and I’ll post the link for you. On that site you can search for counselors who might be in your geographical area.


God bless. Hang in there. Trust in God. Wait on the Lord.

Get real, folks!

Snooping and Exposing ARE controlling and manipulative.
So is Plan-B, to a certain extent.
Even Plan-A, to a much lesser extent.

If you want to use those tactics to save your marriage... you can decide that the end justifies the means... but don't try to pretend that they aren't controlling and manipulative. And don't try to turn it all around on the WS when he or she sees it for what it is, and balks at being treated that way.

smartcookie - Okay, LET's get real.

WHAT do you propose as an "acceptable" alternative to you for someone who is faced with a crime against him, his children, his marriage? It's okay if you want to disagree. It's okay if you hold a differing opinion. But let's not stop with your bomb throwing, offer some constructive alternatives and what you see is so "wrong" with investigation and plans to help someone end a serious wrong and begin to behave responsibly again.

Let's see....detectives shouldn't investigate burglaries where what belongs to you is stolen against your will.

People should not be held accountable for their "poor choices."

Criminals should not be locked up and left to their own instead of being welcomed into your home and approval given for their "activities."

People should not try to understand their own areas that might need improvement.

Anything you do or say to anyone should not intended to help (manipulate if you care to stretch the word) or to control them (what IS the purpose of moral, ethical, and legal laws anyway?)

So did something hit a "raw nerve" with you or something?

OOPS - edited to take out all my outrage.

In my opinion, SmartCookie isn't.

Larry

They're not 1/100th as controlling and manipulative as having an A behind your spouses back. In comparison, it's not even on the same scale. Not even in the same universe!

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I'll HAVE my A but if you try to end it YOU'RE manipulative and controlling?? WOW! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> How can you type that with a straight face? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Smartcookie,

You caught us. Turn in your decoder ring.

BYE

Just noticed:




Just wondering. Could be wrong, but anniversary marks can work on your mind, ya know? Anger from both sides. Just like this thread.

Apparently SC has gone foggy!

WOW just when I thought it was safe to go outside again.

SC -

Whoa....your comments strike me as totally out of character for you. At least the tone behind them that I read.


I don't see how they are controlling and/or manipulative. A spouse has a right to know things that could have a significant impact on his/her life and/or family. If a spouse is actively engaged in an affair, then (IMO) the other spouse has every right to snoop and expose to protect themselves and their family - including, indirectly, the WS. Nothing in snooping and/or exposing controls the WS or manipulates them. The WS is free to continue the affair after it has been exposed or after the BS knows about it.


So if I had planned B MP when she took her a second trip, and had conditions she had to meet before I would unplan B here, how is that maniuplation or controlling? It's simply telling the WS that you will agree to remain in the relationship only as long as they respect your boundaries.


Plan-A isn't even about the WS. It's all about the BS working to make themselves the best person they can be. The WS is free to accept that or not.

Here's my take on your points:

1. Snooping and Exposing. When 2 people marry, they enter into a contract, if you will. When one of the 2 parties decides to violate that contract without notifying the other party, where is the fairness in that? Could you not argue that by keeping the affair a secret, the WS is actually controlling and manipulating the BS, without the BS having a clue? Snooping, despite how bad it may taste, is essential to giving the BS the information they need to make decisions regarding their life, without being controlled or manipulated by the WS.
Exposing the affair does a couple of things. One, it generates a support network (hopefully) for the BS who wants to try and save their marriage. Two, it brings that which is hidden out into the open, so it can be dealt with. Yes, it is a tactic to end an affair. It's certainly not controlling or manipulative IMO. As I said above, the WS is free to continue the affair after it's been exposed. Left to itself, the A may not even die. Even if it does, the longer it goes on, the more (at the least potential) damage the BS and kids can suffer.

2. Plan B. Again, it's all about the BS, not the WS. The goal of Plan B is to help the BS both preserve what love they have left for the WS, and to remove them from the chaos of the situation so that they might being or continue to heal.

3. Paln A. Again, for the BS, not the WS. It's about the BS identifying those areas that they performed poorly in, and working to address them. It's also an opportunity for the BS to develop new hobbies and interests, and in general simply grow as an individual.

All of these tactics are, IMO, geared more to the BS than the WS. They empower the BS to act. They also, in many cases, have the added benefit of hastening the end of the affair and setting the ground for a successful recovery.

This is not to say that these tactics cannot be used in a controlling or manipulative way. If the BS makes the focus of these tactics, especially Plan A and B, the goal of winning the WS back, or even punishing the WS back, then yes, your point is taken. But in that case, the BS is not using these plans as Dr. Harley intended.

SC, I've enjoyed your insights and the experiences you've shared on the forums. Like I said, your post above seems very out of character for you, and I'm willing to write it off to external issues. If you want to discuss more, we can start a new thread so as to not T/J BetrayedToo's thread.

Smartcookie, like everyone else I must assume you have something rocking your life at the moment. It’s not like you to be a sloppy thinker.

Enforcement of a personal boundary is NOT manipulation or control.

Refusing to co-operate with one’s own exploitation is quite fair, however much it inconveniences the exploiter.

Manipulation, would you agree, is about affecting someone else’s decisions by attaching the threat of pain or reward to their choices, in order to have them choose an action that benefits the manipulator rather than themselves? The important aspect of manipulation is that the pain or reward is not intrinsic in the action itself, but is inflicted by the manipulator via his/her own power in the relationship. Control is about usurping someone else’s right to make their own choices at all.

So how is snooping manipulative or controlling? Snooping is merely tracking your spouse’s activities in more depth than usual when you have reason to feel uneasy. Your spouse may not expect you to be watching their life so closely, and may feel angry if their activities include something they don’t want you to know about – but all that does is to make much less attractive a choice that involved the violation of your boundaries. Your spouse's choices may be affected, but only because of the pain/reward factors that they themselves agreed to be bound by when they made their marital vows.

How is exposure manipulative or controlling? Exposure simply brings to public attention facts which were previously hidden. It is not a threat at all, therefore not manipulative. The facts were being hidden in order for the adulterers to evade the intrinsic pain of the choice, but the pain is implicit in the choice – it’s not in the gift of the exposer. Exposing the true ‘cost’ of a choice is not controlling or manipulative.

How is Plan A manipulative or controlling? There is certainly a desire on the part of the BS to affect the WS’s decision-making process, but this does not make it manipulative. The BS is not setting out to inflict pain or reward on the WS’s choices, but only to clarify what those choices are. Plan A is not supposed to be about generating a fake self and luring the WS back under false pretences. It’s about cleaning up the marital act, to give the WS an accurate picture of what they would be returning to. It requires the BS to ask themselves hard questions about their own weaknesses as a spouse and a person, A good Plan A is a time of astonishing personal growth for the BS. But it doesn’t take away the WS’s choices, or misrepresent them dishonestly.

How is Plan B manipulative or controlling? Plan B is a withdrawal of the BS’s co-operation in being exploited. The WS has grown accustomed to a choice which violates the BS’s boundaries – removing that choice from their option-set is quite fair. The intent of Plan B is principally to establish the BS’s long-term boundaries; it is the enforcement of a legitimate personal boundary where, until that moment, the BS has allowed that boundary to be breached. The hope is that the stark reality of the choice to cheat will wake the WS up, but the pain of the choice is inherent in the choice; it is not the gift of the BS.

It’s ‘natural’ for the WS to squeal with pain when a comfortable choice is removed or made much less comfy. But a choice that depends on the violation of another’s rights is not remotely legitimate. Refusing to be exploited is the entitlement of all humans.

TA

um no, catching an infidel doing something bad and exposing their bad behavior is not "controlling" or "manipulative." That is NONSENSE. Its called consequences. The WS isn't "supposed" to like being BUSTED, which is why it is so effective. They are supposed TO HATE getting caught and exposed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I dare say that Dr. Harley has a tad bit more experience "saving marriages" than a fogged out, self serving WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

No. Control and manipulation is about imposing unrelated and unnatural consequences to someone's actions. When a BS exposes...the BS has no control whatsoever on how the "exposees" react, that is totally out of the BS's control...the BS is not imposing any consequences.

Exposure is only controlling if you expect the affair to end because you expose. Then you are trying to change the spouse's behavior. If you expose with the understanding that the only person who can end the affair is the WS, then you are not controlling. Exposure is your action, not your spouse's.

Sadly, in this country, the breaking of a marital vow is not criminal and is viewed as the personal choice of the betrayer who often turns around and blames the BS for not meeting needs.

BT -- Harley once said to me, "Nothing may work." Those were difficult words to hear. In the end, it is up to the WS to end the affair. Not all of them do, not even with exposure.

Try watching the Johnny Cash movie, "Walk the Line." People who believe that they have a right to end their commitments when their feelings change will not respond to exposure.

Respectful