Two months ago I’ve send the following e-mail to Willard F. Harley, Jr.:

[color:"blue"] Dr. Harley, approximately one month ago (on 11 August ’06), a BS on MB’ers sends you the following e-mail:

“Dr. Harley,
Thank you for a wonderful site.
There have been many discussions of late pertaining to exposure and POJA.
I have a concern that I would like to hear your opinion on. You have advocated that a BS is to be told of an A in all cases. Yet, there is a thought on the board that this should be a POJA issue between the FWS and the BS. I feel that there is a moral obligation for the FWS to make sure the affair partners spouse is aware of the A. I feel that even absent "enthusiastic agreement" from the BS that this serves two purposes: protecting your own marriage and making amends to a person that has been wronged (by both WS). I feel that the "Golden Rule" should apply here and that the OBS should be made aware of the A.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this. I would have liked to have called this question into your show but am unable to do so.
Thank you again for the valuable service you offer.
Regards,
Robert (mkeverydaycnt)”

The above poster also sends a copy of his post on the GQII board but said he has not received any response from you as off yet. I’m also very interested in your response on his post and have therefore decided to re-send the above post on his behalf in case the 1st post didn’t reach you or get lost. There are other members on MB’ers who are also interested in your response since this is a topic of debate on the GQII board for a while now.

Also, I’m a FWW who was involved in an online EA a few years ago. The EA was never exposed to OM’s W. Recently the EA was resumed for a period of one day (massive e-mail exchanges) before I confessed to my H and send a 3rd NC letter to OM. I still work at the same company than OM due to personal circumstances and accidentally see him or bump in him now and then.

I value your opinion and would like to have an answer from you regarding POJA and exposure in a situation where the BS doesn’t approve and agree on exposure to the OPS at this stage due to personal circumstances, reasons, fears and concerns.

Since exposure to both BS’s and POJA in an M and to get the BS’s “enthusiastic agreement” are both important - what about a situation where the BS doesn’t agree and approve on exposure to the OPS in a situation (like mine) where the A has ended, but where the FWS still risks contact from the OP and therefore stays vulnerable for a resumption of the A?

Must the FWS honors and submits to the BS and not expose without the BS “enthusiastic agreement” or must the FWS do the morally right thing and expose and make amends to the OPS anyway (by using "Radical Honesty" with the BS) without the BS’s agreement and approval? Especially after a recent betrayal by the FWS where contact was broken (by the OP’s instigation) and a resumption of the A occurred?

Since I’m also unable to call in or listen to your radio show (I’m living in South-Africa) I will highly appreciate if you can respond to my e-mail address.

Thanks for your time and valuable service. I will appreciate your time and opinion on this very much.

Regards,
“Suzet”[/color]

After a few follow up e-mails, I eventually received the following response from Dr Harley today:

[color:"purple"]Hi “Suzet”,

The two most important rules for surviving an affair are to 1) never see or talk to the lover again (and create extraordinary conditions to guarantee that outcome), and 2) follow a plan for marital recovery that leads to a mutual feeling of romantic love (with emphasis on the Policy of Undivided Attention, the Policy of Radical Honesty, and the Policy of Joint Agreement as outlined in "Fall in Love, Stay in Love." There are other rules that are optional, such as letting the lover's spouse know about the affair, since it would be the caring thing to do. But it's optional, and has little bearing on the success of a marriage when the two most important rules are followed. While I encourage revealing the affair to the lover's spouse, it's not necessary, and if your husband objects, I wouldn't do it. But the other rules cannot be compromised. You simply must not ever see this man again and you and your husband must both follow the Policy of Undivided Attention (15 hours a week that are set aside to meet the emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment), the Policy of Radical Honesty (to become completely transparent to each other), and the Policy of Joint Agreement. If either you or your husband fail to follow these rules, you are not likely to recover from this affair. I hope that clarification helps.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.[/color]

Suzet - thanks for the information. And the focus remains on the recovery of YOUR marriage, as it should be.

God bless.

Thank you Suzet! I'm in a similar situation and it has really been bugging me. I feel a little better now. Thanks for following up on this!

The point IS suzet that exposure to the OPS is a reinforcer of NC. Do you think OM would have gotten back in touch with you if his W was policing him ?

As Dr Harley says, it the decent thing to do , but it's also the action likely to protect NC , and therefore your own marriage too.

Your own and OMs best intentions to stay dark didn't work without exposure to OMs W before, why should it work now ? Because you both REALLY mean it this time ?

Sorry Suzet, not exposing looks so much like CA that I need a dna test to tell the difference. Just be CERTAIN in your case DEEP in your heart that there is no SHRED of CA in your reasoning for not exposing.

all blessings

Suzet,

Great post Thank You.

Suzet - Thank you for posting this reply from Dr. Harley! The focus should remain on the recovery of YOUR marriage.

Very glad that we got a reply on that!!!! I'd submitted a very similar email question to some of the MB staff around that same time frame with no response.

So this is it from 'the horse's mouth' so to speak.

You've got to appreciate the email AND his response...didn't appear to leave any room for ambiguity.

of course, once again, no one mentions that the fact that the ws is living with horrible guilt over not telling can not be doing a lot for the marriage. But hey, if you can get recovery while living with horrible guilt- go for it.

I thought this was casuing you such horrible grief, 2B?

Isn't that what you said a few months ago?

oh well, now you can feel justiied that the questions have been presented to Dr. Harley and despite what you know in your heart is the right thing to do, you can continue to live with the guilt.

Gosh, what a delightful life you must live faced with the guilt of it every day.

Well Suzet - Thanks for that. You are still working with OM though right?

moveforward, both my husband and I have been at peace with the decision that we jointly agreed upon long before Suzet posted this reply from Dr. Harley today.

I hope this reply from Dr. Harley gives Suzet the help she needs for the recovery of her marriage.

__________________________________________________________

Psalm 103:1-12
1 Praise the LORD, O my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
2 Praise the LORD, O my soul,
and forget not all his benefits-
3 who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
4 who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
5 who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.
6 The LORD works righteousness
and justice for all the oppressed.
7 He made known his ways to Moses,
his deeds to the people of Israel:
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

"since it would be the caring thing to do."

mmmmm, I guess, by implication, he's calling you AND/OR your husband(s), since they won't agree with it even though you guys so eagerly want to do it..."uncaring".

But, yet, you guys still want to find and post an "out" to the "caring" recommendation that others expose. Sure it's "optional" to a marital recovery plan, but it's still the "caring" thing to do. So, please, if YOU care, at least allow others to get the "caring" suggestion without clouding it up with your specific justifications and rationalizations for not doing the "caring" thing. Loopholes beget loopholes. The posters that need the advice are hesitant enough to follow through with it and you guys should know many recommend it strongly or even harshly to break through that resistance NOT to put you guys down personally by inference (or directly when you start getting involved defending your uncaring choices).

We "get it"...you guys (and/or your spouses) just don't "care".

Mr. Wondering

of course it is optional to do the right thing by someone else. let's all just look out for ourselves. anyone... and I mean anyone... that doesn't let their A partners spouse know what they have done is acting in a very insensitive and cruel way.... you would want to know. But all that being said... we can't require that people act in a caring and responsible way. You screwed someone over and now you get to get out of an obligation to express remorse to someone that you have harmed in a most callous fashion. And for anyone that wants to tell me I am being too harsh about this... save it... the last thing I want to hear is a FWS telling me that it is okay to hurt someone because they had a Dr. tell them it was "optional." Sad.
BTW... this post is directed at no one in particular... it is my general feelings on the topic. So, if you think it is personal to you... save that too. I am just sick of the sense of entitlement to hurt others that allowed the dropping of undies in the first place. Shameful.

Of course, you are all absolutely free to post whatever you want.

Mr. W

Post deleted

[/b]my comments are bold ... the rest is all Harley[/b]

Hi “Suzet”,

The two most important rules for surviving an affair are to 1) never see or talk to the lover again (and create extraordinary conditions to guarantee that outcome)

Suzet, you have not followed this rule. Which is why your affair (not inappropriate friendship) has required 3 NC letters (so far),

and 2) follow a plan for marital recovery that leads to a mutual feeling of romantic love (with emphasis on the Policy of Undivided Attention, the Policy of Radical Honesty, and the Policy of Joint Agreement as outlined in "Fall in Love, Stay in Love." There are other rules that are optional, such as letting the lover's spouse know about the affair, since it would be the caring thing to do.

I guess this places you, Suzet, among the uncaring

But it's optional, and has little bearing on the success of a marriage when the two most important rules are followed.

BUT, since the first important rule has NOT been followed, you work with OM and occasionally & by accident see him ... perhaps your failure at recovery was most adversely affected by OM's wife NOT knowing about you and your feelings for her husband as you continue to work with OM

While I encourage revealing the affair to the lover's spouse, it's not necessary, and if your husband objects, I wouldn't do it. But the other rules cannot be compromised. You simply must not ever see this man again

Dr Harley says the other rules cannot be compromised. You must never see this OM again ... and if you had told OM's wife about the affair the first time ... you might have had full recovery and not have had all this trouble with multiple D-Days. In other words, Suzet, it has NOT worked to the benifit of your marriage to keep your affair secret from OM's wife! This has harmed you and your husband Suzet.

and you and your husband must both follow the Policy of Undivided Attention (15 hours a week that are set aside to meet the emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment), the Policy of Radical Honesty (to become completely transparent to each other), and the Policy of Joint Agreement. If either you or your husband fail to follow these rules,

The FIRST RUILE ~~~> create extrordinary conditions to make sure you NEVER see or contact OM ever again

you are not likely to recover from this affair. I hope that clarification helps.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

WHY do you think Harley said he encourages revealing to the OP's spouse?

Because it is caring PLUS it is likely to be one the the extraordinary measures necessary to insure NC ... as clearly and repeatedly illustrated by your situation as well as a few others with multiple D-days !!!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Cosigned Mr W and Pep. Totally agree.

There are other rules that are optional.This was from Dr.
Harley.



No where in his reply do I see him saying her failure
to disclose to the other mans wife is uncaring, to assume
such is disrespectful.

With the exception of the Marriage Builders® Weekend Private forums,
the advice offered on these forums is offered by your peers - it is NOT professional advice and should not be taken as such. If you want professional advice, please look at information about the MB Counseling Center, or seek a professional counselor.

Um Dr harley said it is caring and optional. Therefore not doing it is uncaring.

Dictionary.com -
optional; Pronunciation[op-shuh-nl] –adjective

1. left to one's choice; not required or mandatory:
2. leaving something to choice.


Or it could be up to the individual to make up their own mind depending on their circumstances.

Gotcha - choosing not to do it is uncaring. Thanks for your clarification.