This was stated by Dr. Harley in an E-Mail to Suzet.

I want to emphasize this...since it has been MY BROKEN RECORD to a number of my fellow MBers lately.

His ending statement was:



This is why I keep saying to...FOLLOW THESE RULES EXPLICITLY...


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

You've had it right all along!

Hi Mimi,

What bothers me about this is the following:

What if a person is NOT in a position (due to circumstances and obstacles out of their control) to follow these rules explicitly?

After I’ve received Dr Harley’s e-mail today I’ve send the following follow up question to him:

[color:"blue"] Dear Dr Harley,

Thank you very much for you response earlier today. It did help to clarify.

I want to ask you a follow up question if you don’t mind, but before I do so I first want to give you more background on my situation (something I failed to do in my first post):

My H is still unemployed due to victimization and unfair dismissal almost 3 years ago (my H’s Unfair Dismissal court case is still in process). The reason both me and my H has not succeeded in finding other jobs yet for the past couple of years is because of “affirmative action” in this country e.g. black empowerment in the workforce (appointment of people in the workforce who belongs to the majority group e.g. African blacks). My H and I belong to the minority group (African whites) who are last on the list to be appointed in new jobs. Therefore, me and my H still fail to create extraordinary conditions (e.g. quitting my job and move to another state) to ensure that I will not accidentally see the OM again because of the above reasons & circumstances. However, in spite of these “obstacles” we are both very committed to each other and our M.

Do you think it’s possible that my H and I had a “false” recovery before the one day resumption of the online-EA a few months ago and do you think there is any hope for total marriage recovery and individual recovery in spite of these personal circumstances and obstacles?[/color]

Eagle:

I didn't bring this up for a "pat on the back". However, it feels good and I appreciate you noticing.

My purpose is to help others since following these rules explicitly have been key to OUR RECOVERY.

Suzet you asked:



Then there's a good chance of rekindling the A.

My H is more deadset about this than I am...so he must understand the OW's allure.

He is working DAILY on a PLAN for us to be in a FINANCIAL POSITION to move to another city. He takes the most roundabout routes around the city in order to AVOID her. I hate it sometimes BUT our marriage is worth it to both of us.



Sad, for you, I would say NO.

I don't believe there are any such circumstances beyond your control. A menu of bad choices? No doubt. Impossible circumstances? [censored]!

My island is small and the chances of my WW running into OM is quite high. So what is my dream? move to another island.

I am just taking it one day at a time but i believe that total avoidance of OP is VERY IMPORTANT. currently it is beyond me to do. But for you maybe not. Take care in the early part of recovery it maybe paramount for you to follow this advice......but that is all it is.....advice. Its not a command. These are the price we sometimes pay for our "enjoyment".

The ouestion i would ask myself is......is it worth it?

almost like playing with literal fire of desire.

It cost us THOUSANDS of dollars to get AWAY from OM. So YES - Move to another island. DER. It isn't advice nc007 - it's an absolute requirement for recovery.

5 X 5 big k

BigK, it’s very easy…too easy…to label something as “[censored]” (or "justifications" or “rationalizations” or “excuses”) if you haven’t been in exactly the same shoes and circumstances… Therefore, I want you to think and please explain to me how “affirmative action”; black empowerment and discrimination towards the minority group in my country (and unemployment and extreme difficulty to find other job because of this) is within me and my H’s control... With your words above you also seem to imply that it was my H’s choice and “within his control” to be without a permanent job for almost 3 years already... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Obviously you have NO idea & emphathy...but I don't expect that from you since you've haven't been in the same shoes and circumstances...

Suzet

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I am a little hazy as to why you and your H are unwilling to expose to OMW. I have the impression that you fear it might jeopordise your own job - is that correct? I'm not entirely clear why that could happen - are intra-company relationships a sacking offence where you work? If not, presumably there would be no reason for sacking you, and if you were dismissed, there would be grounds for appeal?

I've also got a slight memory that you fear exposure of the A might weaken your H's position vis-a-vis his unfair dismissal tribunal? I may have got that wrong, as I'm not sure how your own conduct would affect his own position, if there are reasonable rules in place for the tribunal.

If you were both unemployed, what would that mean in basic financial terms? Is there any kind of social security safety net, or would you both effectively become dependent on family? Do either of you have transferrable skills? If the situation is as bad as you describe, have you considered emigration?

I also think you've mentioned that you will need IVF treatment in order to have children? I imagine that is not a state-supported treatment in SA, so you would have to come up with a fair amount of money? Is that hope something that is restricting your current decisions regarding the safety of your job?

Thanks.

TA

Suzet

I have a team in Johnannesburg that work for me, and I know how complex the employment station is.

I don't know what skills you and your H have, so of course I can't make a judgment. Within IT it's possible for white's to get good jobs, because of the skills shortage. Most folks, white AND black who get good IT skills and experience seem to emigrate to Europe or the US very quickly to get paid a whole lot more - its a "brain drain" that has caused me real problems- anyway...I digress).

I don't know the job situation outside the major cities, though, nor for industries outside IT.

But I will say this Suzet - it is an INCONVENIENCE to ensure total NC, but I do not believe it is impossible.

I believe itis a balance of benefits and costs, and your H doesn't see the inconvenience of relocating / re-employment etc etc as being worth NC. I know you have told me before that your H is nowhere near as threatened by your EA than he would have been if it was a PA, nd I think thisis making your H more casual than he should be in protecting your marriage.

Ar you CERTAIN he knows that your EA becoming a PA was perhaps only a CIRCUMSTANCE away ?

I think you and H don't think contact is threatening enough to inconvenience yourself for. And I think that is a bad choice.

All blessings Suzet.

TA, you're welcome for asking.

Exposing to OM’sW will not jeopardize my job or my H’s unfair dismissal tribunal. The main reason my H doesn’t want us to expose is this:

We both know OM is the type of person who WILL make a court case against me and/or my H for an attempt to “break up his M” if we expose…especially since we have NO solid PROOF of an EA (I didn’t kept the e-mails except the doc I still have in Word which will not serve as solid proof since anyone can edit the contents of such document). And because of my H’s current unemployment and his Unfair Dismissal court case which is still ongoing, he’s not willing to take the risk of further financial stress etc. My H also fears the public humiliation and embarrassment such an incident might lead to for both of us. My H also feels the emotional stress of his unemployment, the upcoming court case & our infertility is enough to cope with at this stage and that we can’t risk/expose ourselves to further emotional stress.

The reason we know the OM will make a court case is because previously, he has made two court cases against his line manager. He did this just because he resented the circumstances in his work place and felt unfairly treated for some reasons. In the end he lost both cases (he know beforehand his cases were not good) but it appeared he had gone through with those two cases anyway to frustrate his line-manager and to “make a point”.


If both of us will become unemployed it will basically mean that we will not be able to support ourselves any longer as far as basic needs are concerned e.g. shelter, food etc. While my H is still unemployed now, he do some temporary jobs where he can like selling and repairing computers & peripherals; doing network installations etc. (my H did IT support in his previous job), it will not be enough to foreseen in our basic financial needs. Both my H & I (when he was still employed) belong to the “middle income group”. With my H’s unemployment for the past 3 years we already endured a lot of financial stress and we don’t have savings left anymore because my salary don’t provide in ALL our basic needs.

No, there is no social security safety net and we will both become depended on family. The only help a person does receive from the government (in the case of a person losing his/her job) is a percentage of the previous salary for 6 months. When my H lost his job almost 3 years ago, he received approximately 20% of his previous salary for a period of 6 months.

Yes, we have looked into this option a few times but not recently. My H has great experience in the IT field but unfortunately never completed his after school studies to obtain a formal qualification in this. Because of this he doesn’t have enough “points” on the “point systems” of most countries to qualify for emigration. I on the other hand have a good tertiary qualification (degree) but lack enough experience in my specific field of study. This has an influence on the “point systems” of most countries too. Also, for emigration a minimum amount of money have to be transferred by the immigrants to the country of immigration and this is our greatest concern since the money value (R value) in my country is extremely low against the $, euro etc. So yes, although we will experience many obstacles with emigration, it is not an impossible option for us.

Yes, you’re correct. Me and my H can only conceive children with an advanced IVF treatment called ICSI and yes, such treatment is not state-supported in SA. It is not even covered by my medical aid/fund. The amount of money we will have to come up with in my country for one attempt of ICSI treatment will be approximately R25 000.

Not the safety of my job, but it will certainly restrict the decision of quitting my current job if my H gets re-instated in his previous job… 2 persons on this forum already asked me if I will quit my job as soon as my H gets re-instated and receive back pay/compensation for the past 3 years and my answer was as follows:


Hope this has helped to anwer your questions.

Bob, the truth is I don’t even know the answer on the above question myself (whether or not I would have ever allowed to EA to become PA if there was opportunity & temptation). I always restrained myself from giving a hug to OM (in spite of his invitations to do so) because I felt too uncomfortable and anxious the times I did found myself alone in his physical presence. As you know we mostly communicated on e-mail. However, I can see (because of the intensity of my feelings for OM at the time) how a PA (kissing & embracing) was perhaps only a circumstance away and was probably just a matter of the “right” time colliding with opportunity & temptation, but I definitely know for reasons I won’t go into here that I would never allow sex…EVER…but whether or not I would have been able to continue resisting hugs from him I honestly don’t know…but I would like to believe that I would be able to do so.

never allow sex…EVER

Find me a FWS on these boards who said any different as their affair spiralled out of control. I've seen FWS with swingers as parents, abusive parents, wonderful parents, virgin bride / grooms, swingers pre- and and duirng their marriage...all sorts and I've hardly EVER seen a single one say they ever dreamed their A would lead to sex as they embareked on their A. It could NEVER happen.

Squid told me she only sustained her affair as she was CERTAIN she'd never REALLY cheat on me by having sex it was just a bit of exciting fun....until it wasn't.

That's moot anyway Suzet.

I think you will never ever expose, even if Dr Harley told you directly so to do, so I will refrain from further recycling my old words here. I wish you and your H great success, and wish you well with H's upcoming court case !.

I'm in a similar position, except my dream is to move to a large country instead of another island. I can't help but feel though that if I was to do that, considering the current state of our M, I might be running towards more problems instead of away from them.

I'm the BS. I run into the OM every now and then, perhaps once a week. The chances of my FWW seeing him are pretty low, but it does happen. She says that there's no chance of anything happening between the two of them again, and I'm prepared to take her word for it at the moment. We haven't fully reconnected though, so I remain apprehensive. She hasn't convinced me yet that she's capable of protecting our M against future As. I'm hoping that her recent "rejoining" of the MB forums helps in this regard.