FH, MM, and others -

I have a question on how involved in the lives of members church leadership should be. My wife and I are seriously considering leaving our current church, because we both feel that they were not as involved as they should have been during and after the affair.

I didn't see these things at the time, but only over the last few months as we started putting our marriage together. Then I realized that the leadership in our church provided very little help to me, and absolutely none to my wife.

First, let me clarify that in no way do I blame our church for what happened. The state of our marriage was both of our responsibilities, and the affair itself was solely my wife's (and OM's) decision and responsibility.

However, hindsight being 20/20, I think our church failed us in a massive way when we needed them the most.

After the affair was first disclosed to me, and I indicated to my wife a willigness to seek counseling and work on our marriage, she contacted our pastor to ask if he could recommend a good Christian marriage counselor. He told her that he didn't know of any, or any counselors in general. Ok...disturbing, but we got a good lead from our old church.

When I went to seek counsel from our pastor for myself in the situation, and he learned that my wife had engaged in an affair, he asked me to ask my wife to step down from her position in Children's Ministry. Neither my wife nor I have an issue with that. We both understand that you can't serve in the ministry effectively when you're engaged in wilfull disobedience to God.

Reflecting back on that however, I feel that the leadership should have approached her directly, rather than having me be the bearer of bad news.

My wife revealed the affair to one of the women in our church, who is also in Children's Minsitry and Women's Ministry. This particular woman had also had an affair when she was separated from her husband, and a mutual friend had suggested MP talk to her. The woman my wife talked to gave her some advice, but never really followed up.

When MP dropped her holiday bomb on me - that she was going to spend 2 weeks with OM 2 days after Christmas to "say goodbye", I was talking with our mutual friend who called me immediately to offer her support through prayer. I then called the lady at church to let her know what was going on, but she didn't talk to MP. I then called our pastor, and he prayed for me, but that's about it.

This is, for me, where the church really failed us. This was obviously a crisis situtation, and no one from leadership stepped forward to try and intervene. Not one person from leadership or woman's Ministry approached MP to ask her what was going on. While I understand the need for a pastor to maintain confidentiality (except in mandatory reporting cases, of course), I would also think that in a crisis like this tapping someone in Woman's Ministry (like maybe his wife?) to approach the WW would make sense.

With the exception of one person in our church who checked with me on a daily basis while MP was on her second trip, no one ever inquired as to how things were going, how I was doing, what MP was doing, how the kids were, etc.

In fact, the only updates my pastor got where when I volunteered them, and I stopped giving him updates in March. No one in the leadership of our church has ever checked in with me to see how things are going. In the nearly one year since all this happened, my pastor has called me exactly once to see how things are going - and that was the day after he found out from someone else in our church that we were seriously considering leaving. He even mentioned it in the voice mail he left me.

No one has ever come alongside MP to ask her how she's doing, or what's going on. In fact, no one even approached her to get her side of the story, or confirm what I was saying. I admit it's highly unlikely that a person would make up a tale like mine, but wouldn't it make sense, if you're going to help, to get both sides of the story? How can you give guidance and correction based on 50% of the situtation?

MP has attended church with me every Sunday, except for one or two times were either she was sick or our DD was sick. We go to a small church (maybe 200 people, max). If you see somone in your flock that has fallen into sin, but is still attending church, wouldn't you approach them to see what was up? If they're unrepentant, then the church is within it's right to ask them to leave, but to see them there and simply ignore the problem?

They were quick to discipline (asking MP to step down from Ministry), but they've given no indication of exactly what they expect from MP to restore her to Children's Ministry. They've offered zilch in encouragement and/or correction. And please let me be clear - despite the mess of the affair, my wife is open to spiritual correction, even if she doesn't enjoy it (we've both gotten a heavy dose of that from our current counselor, the assistant pastor at our old church).

MP is working on our marriage with me. She is working on her spiritual walk. She's started a study group with some other Christian women that are friends/relatives of hers going over "The Excellent Wife". The desire on her part is there, despite the emotional turmoil I belive she's still in. But she's having to do it without support from our church leadership.

I'm not accusing the church of abandoning us completely. I do feel they have not been as proactive as they could have been (and we're not the first couple to be felled by an affair - I know of at least 2 others in our church, and one of them was the youth pastor). What I do sense is a pattern of reluctance and/or unwillingness to face serious family problems and hold people accountable. Correction and discpline, sure - restoration and renewal? I'm not seeing it in our church...

Perhaps my view and/or expectations of the church are naive or unrealistic. I admit that I am very much still the novice at this. But based on my admittedly limited understanding of things, isn't fellowship for the Christian more than just listening to the pastor give a sermon on Sunday? Isn't one of the main reasons for fellowship to help each other in our walks? To provide a place/group of accountability? Correction and encouragement?

I'm not asking or expecting the church to fix our marriage. I don't expect them to condone the affair. I did expect them to play a more active role, rather than that of (dis?)interested bystander.

Am I way off here?

I can only tell you that the church I attend would have had a flock of people looking to help you and to intervene. The church I go to has 14,000 member... not including children under 12... and never are you lost in the crowd. This would be a good indication to me that it is time to move on... pray about it and let God lead you to where he wants you both to land.

MEDC -

Thanks for the post. I would have expected what we experienced to be more likely in a church the size of yours than ours.

We do need to add it to our prayer list (we do devotions together nightly - or almost every night and have a list of prayer requests/praises that we go over at the end). I'll add it tonight.

healingbird - talk about opening up a can of worms!!

You have described the church my wife and I were members of when I found out about her affair.

I could have written what you wrote verbatim, except for the ministry part, because neither of us were involved in a ministry at the time.

Suffice it to say that we do not attend that church, which still has us a members on it's rolls. I received a call from a new Deacon who had us assiged to his care-group two weeks ago. That's the FIRST call from anyone at the church in about 4.5 years. That man WAS acting as a concerned Deacon should, and was sincerely interested in knowing how he could help or pray for us. He knows nothing about us, the infidelity, or anything other perhaps than we have not been attending in over 4 years. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine church, but it is woefully short on the counseling side and the Matthew 18:15-20 sort of church discipline.

My wife remains very bitter about their lack of support for me (this is what she is most bitter about because she now understands how great my pain was at the time and that no one stepped forward to help me), that no one contacted her to discuss things from a biblical perspective, etc.. Right now we are visiting churches and are taking our time to find a solid, biblically based and loving/caring fellowship, to eventually become members of. Suffice it to say, I am looking at their role to be good stewards and shepards of the flock, and that includes loving church discipline when needed to hopefully restore someone to full fellowship that may be caught in sin. My wife is more anxious about finding a "church home" so we can get more involved in things, but I feel no great need to "rush" things.

One thing that is VERY good and very indicative of my wife's recovery is her involvenmet in a women's bible study group and her strong desire for us to become members of a church. That Christ continues to work in her heart is evident, and is the fulfillment of my prayers at the beginning of recovery for God bring her back into full fellowship with Him, and then with me. I'll play "second fiddle" to God anytime, because the dividends of the "spillover" are hugely good. Romans 8:28 in action!

God bless.

I have a similar tale of woe...WH attended a larger church about 1,000...but were very active in our Sunday School class.

When WH left, he went to stay with another member from our class. For weeks after, I could not bring myself to go to SS, but was in Church every Sunday morning and Sunday and Wed nite. Not one single person from that class...or even in the whole church so much as made eye contact with me...much less spoke to me or offered any kind of encouragement or support.

I finally reached out to the pastor and told him how much it hurt that no one was there for me. That Wed nite, during the altar call he called all the SS teachers up front and invited the members from each person's class to come forward for prayer from their teacher. It was probably one of the most humiliating moments of my life. I got up and walked out...probably not the most mature reaction but it made me feel like the only way I could get so much as a prayer was by direct order from the pastor.

Then the calls and letters started but at that point, it just made things worse. The closest thing that I got to an apology was "I'm sorry but I didn't know what to say". FIrst of all anything that starts with "I am sorry BUT..." isn't an apology and secondly how could someone who claims to be a Christian not know what to say?!? That is simply a polite way of saying that I didn't care enough to come out of my comfort zone.

It is hard not to be bitter. To this day I don't think any of them understands how deeply they hurt me. In some ways it was worse than WH leaving, because it validated it.

Here's my rambling on this...

to you healingbird I say...

If you see somone in your flock that has fallen into sin, but is still attending church, wouldn't you approach them to see what was up? If they're unrepentant, then the church is within it's right to ask them to leave, but to see them there and simply ignore the problem?

I think God would want the sinner in the church....personally....

"I'm sorry but I didn't know what to say". FIrst of all anything that starts with "I am sorry BUT..." isn't an apology and secondly how could someone who claims to be a Christian not know what to say?!? That is simply a polite way of saying that I didn't care enough to come out of my comfort zone.

peachblossom...
I say that that person spoke the truth....and be very wary of condemning them for their honesty...
people don't know what to say to others.....affairs are very very scary and painful things even to outsiders...

society screams it's not our business
society screams to villify the WS

perhaps no response is a greater blessing than a mulititude telling you to leave the bum..

perhaps...



To all three of you I say pray for compassion to those in each of these churches...

relinquish the bitterness and see the place where God may have put you to make a change for others...

all three claim similiar stories...

do you cut and run...

OR

do you seek Christ like love and guidannce...and use the great pain and he## you have all traveled through to make a change right where you are planted.....

Some Churches are sick...and should be left...

but others lack strong leaderships....do you leave to find someone else to lead...
or do you stay and become leaders...

CHRIST LOVE
CHRIST COMPASSION

perhaps all three have great opportunities in front of you..

perhaps...

two claim bitterness.....is was Christ bitter with you
bitter with WS

bitterness.....???

nobody needs it...

and you can lament the ills of any and every church..
OR
you turn it in to a minitstry of love

others in those same churches NEED you....

that's my opinion...
ARK

Ditto what FH said. Same sitch for me. And this church I grew up in, was married in. When I asked the pastor why he and the deacons did not get involved, he said he didnt want to drive my wife away. Lame excuse!!

Matthew is very clear on the role of the church in these matters. VERY CLEAR! Too many churches have abdicated their responsibilities. And make no mistake...it is their responsibility to confront and to discipline. Just as it is its responsibility to love. Too often, the message is all love...and no discipline. And love with no discipline is no love at all.

I also left the church when I got back off of deployment and found out what they had not done. These people, including my pastor and deacons, knew what was going on...and did nothing.

Too often people dont want to get involved because it is uncomfortable for them to. Or they dont want the added burden of dealing with that kind of mess. I can understand this. But the leaders in the church are called to apply God's Word. In it, God has outlined how to deal with people like my wife. It is for their own good to be dealt with in that way...instead of the ways man invents. Had they approached my wife, interjected themselves into this situation...and if need be, taken her before the church and even asked her to leave...then God would have done His part as He promised. Instead, Satan was allwoed to run rampant in my house while these people stood back and did nothing. And many just sat around and gossiped about how this supposedly Godly woman had fallen. Shame on all of them.

The new church that the kids and I joined I liked alot. It had much of what our old church had. But they were also big on church discipline. Even though my wife would not join, the church proceeded forward anyway...as she is a proclaimed Christian and I am her husband...a member of the church. She refused to come in and speak to the pastors. So, one day...I went in and met with the assistant pastors. One of them prayed...and then they rendered a verdict. My wife was to be treated as a tax gatherer...and unbeliever. The messages I got thru prayer and thru other sources after that all said the same thing..."Let the unbeliever go."

God says that whatever the church decides when it comes to church discipline, He will ratify in Heaven (that is if the church is following His will). So, the fact that my wife was made "as a tax gathere" means that God recognizes her as one also. Not as one of His children.

It was a hard hit for her. She realized what was going on. She is still angry at me for doing this. But her response is telling. Instead of getting on her knees and asking forgiveness from me, from God...which would mean she would have been restored...she ran off and decided to do this her own way.

"Jesus is a God of love. He knew I would do all of this. His grace will suffice." And more babble that she tells, straight from 1st Fleshalonians 1:1-12. She has no idea what she is talking about. It is evident that she doesnt know Jesus personally. And evident that she would rather pick and choose Scripture in order to justify her actions. So be it.

But there was no excuse what my old church did. In love, they should have dealt with this like my new church did. My wife might have been caught before she got too far down the line. The pastors and elders of that church knew better.

God will hold them accountable.

The problem is, once you are divorced, and the church did nothing to help, they often will say you are not qualified for leadership because you are divorced.

So they won't help, but if you end up divorced, they won't let you help either.

Even if an individual doesn't know what to say, and I'll accept that, what is more telling is that they didn't bother to take the time to find out what could be said, or find someone who could help.

It is rather frustrating to hear on Christian radio, all of these folks who preach about how important the family is, how we must protect marriage, and then when you bring a crisis to the attention of the church, little or nothing is done.

When you end up divorced, you often get divorced by your church as well.

Ark, I agree with much of what you say, yet it's a two way street. If we don't speak out about the sick churches, then we are no better than those who didn't know what to say to us or our wayward spouses.

Personally, as followers of God, knowing what God can do, we should expect MORE from our churches, not less.

I think anytime someone says, "I wanted to help, but I didn't know what to say or do." One might offer "You may not think anything can be done, BUT no problem is bigger than God, and if you are a willing vessel, he can give you the words or talents to apply."

enlightened...

We can all speak of sickness...
sick churches
sick business practices
sick school systems...

the list of our unhappiness dissapointment and bitterness is endless..

INFACT one could almost argue in the case of Christian Churches they could claim the role of assisting in divorce only... within the realm of adultery...for the the bible gives permission in that case...........

Also it is easy to say that people don't get involved because it is uncomfortable...

that's not always the answer...

sometimes the don't KNOW what to do/say..
sometimes....
sometimes they are way way underqualified....
the juggling of too many priorities in a church....vs not hours in the day to get all that need help....

and you can say we expect more from churches...

but WE are the churches....they are not an entity of name...but of people...with strengths and weaknesses.....

again I say..
seek Christs compassion in your disappointments...
NOT
bitterness
and
rebuttal...

I just think instead of perpetuating the hurt...we empower ourselves

motars church sounds sicky to me....

ARK

Ark, I appreciate your comments and under most circumstances I wouldn't disagree about "staying" involved in the church. However, there are also church leadership "structures" to contend with, and the leader of the church is the Pastor and the leadership of the church are the Elders, Deacons, etc..

I can tell you from very personal experience what can happen when someone suggests, in all sincerity, that the leadership might want to consider some "other" way of doing things. But I'll not go there right now, because it's not germaine to the "stay or go" issue per se.

But let me ask you a followup question or two.

The "hierarchy" I personally follow is God first, spouse second, children and family third, everything else 4th or lower. Would you argue for putting any given church in the second position?

Where would POJA enter in to a decision of where to fellowship or not fellowship?

That I have prayed for the leadership and the churches is fact. But the leadership in those churches answer first to God, and it is in God's hands that I leave them and seek to honor God in my life and in my family's life. Believe me when I say this, God is far more capable than I am of working "changes" in a church, if that is His will.

But you would seem to "oversimplify" a complex situation and seem to want to paint those who have chosen, or may yet choose, to leave their "unsupportive" church as being somehow "unChristian." Believe me, or don't believe me, a choice to leave a church is often more difficult than a decision to join a church, because you are also leaving friends and acquaintences and NOT "gossiping" about the reasons you may have chosen to worship elsewhere.

God bless.

Ark,

Are you speaking of my old church being "sicky" or the new one?

ark,

Yes, we are ALL the church, but not all of us are legs or eyes or other parts of the body of Christ.

I agree that it's not realistic to expect any member, picked at random, to know how to solve an issue, or how to best get involved.

However, I cannot believe that in the Body of Christ, there is not someone who DOES know what to do.

So you can say we are all the church, but does that mean that we all know what to say.

You see, I agree with you on that point.

What do you say to the man or woman, whose church didn't try to find the right member of the body to address the situation?

What do you say to the man or woman, whose church refused to practice church discipline when the spouses adultery was presented to the pastor?

If one can't get their local church to engage when a spouse is living in open adultery, then what does it take to convince a particular body to act?

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say the church didn't act, I'm looking primarily at the pastor who, when made aware of the issue, cannot or will not craft a plan or put the betrayed member in touch with the resources who will actively seek restoring the wayward member back to both the fellowship of believers and to their marriage.

foreverhers...

I am not implying that anyone is unChristian...I am suggesting to stay put for a moment and pray about the decision to leave and see if there is lovingly way to to change the route of a church that in a persons opinion is missing in meeting a need...

THAT's ALL

I do not think a church comes before spouse...

I would be sad if my spouse was bitter about a church...but I would expect them to try to voice their bitterness AND change what they could,...

I do not oversimplify...you'll never hear me saying Gods work is simple....

I know exactly how complex these things are....good thing Moses didn't see the Pharoahs rule as too complex eh?

If this becomes I am judging and calling people names...I am so out of here for good...I can barely stand this site anymore as it is....and if suggestig to people they stay still for a moment...pray for guidances and see if they can't make something positive out of something they perceive as negative...then truly I am done here...
this place is so hung up on verbage that everything a person types is up for attack and debate...when it remains all that it ever was...an OPINION board...full of OPINIONS
I can't be here


society screams at us to forgo compassion and humilty...and always always go for the negative and the blame and bittnerness...

WE make life harder than it has to be
WE do that....

we have more resources more appliances that simplify more time savers...then anyone before us in history...
and still we are not satisfied....

mortarman..it is your first church that sounds sickly...which is another word I think I made up...

I dont have any experience with a church discipline..it is not known to me....

Saint Frances would and does implore all of us to be made an instrument of Gods work...
doesn's seem like a God awful idea to me....

ARK^^

Ark,

Actually I agree with much of what you say. That is why I continue to attend this church, because I know that ultimately it is my problem to work thru.

The hardest part for me to deal with has been the total lack of validation for my pain. There is nothing worse than being ignored when you are hurting. I am not angry at anyone, I was just very profoundly hurt. I wasn't expecting anyone to crawl under the covers with me, but a simple phone call or visit would have gone a long way.

ark^^ - For the "record," I "stayed put" for some time, but received no support that I did not personally initiate. There is no real chance of affecting change within a church when one is not in a "leadership position," and even then any potential change is dependent upon the "others" who are also in leadership position.

I have twice in my life attempted to offer "suggestions" for the leadership to consider, and have been violently attacked each time, the last time even (along with some others, about 30-40 other members) being branded a "heretic" (for choosing to not attend church services for a month) by the Interim Pastor of the church and kicked out of the church in direct violation of that very church's constitution, misusing a verse of Scripture to "support" their action and "get rid of" members who had a legitimate disagreement of HOW they were attempting to "get what they wanted."

At some point one has to remain faithful to God and the Scripture, and NOT "use" the Scripture to justify behavior that is "opposition" to that very Scripture. If the likelihood of affecting the change you spoke about is "not likely," then one is simply left with having to make a decision to "stay or go." That's not really a lot different than the same choice that all Betrayed Spouses have to make concerning their marriage. At some point, if the "other person" is unlikely to change and work to make a "better marriage" (or church), to come at least "part way" to "TRY" to affect change, you can either stay and be a "doormat," or you can accept that change is unlikely and "move on" to hopefully find a place that is more "loving" and supportive of Scripture in all of it's areas.

That's all I was saying.

If you somehow felt that was some sort of attack on you, I am sorry. I admit to having felt your post was an "attack" on the decision to "leave" rather than "stay and fight." I suppose the feeling is basically that I had my hands full just trying to fight for my marriage without also having to try to fight the church leadership and what I perceived as an unwillingness on their part to support "church discipline," or worse yet, attempt to misuse it to further their agenda.




ark^^, "leaving" or "staying" is indeed the choice of every individual. We ALL struggle with those decisions, whether it applies to a church or to this site.

With respect to OPINIONS, we all have the right to have them. We also, when we state them, accept that others may agree or disagree with them, but we should not "Get bent out of shape," if you understand what I am trying to say, if someone chooses to "disagree" with that opinion. That is NOT an "attack" on someone, that is honest disagreement with an opinion.

If you truly "almost can't stand this site anymore," then it would seem that you are facing the need for such a "stay or go" decision for your life also. Those are not always "easy" decisions, and I can only hope you do what is in the best interest of you and your family. Your contributions to the system are valuable and appreciated, but you are under no "obligation" to post, advise, or opine. That is your choice and only you can decide if it's "worth it" or not for you. Remember, all anyone can do is OFFER aid, but no one is required to take that aid. We hope they will, but we offer the aid regardless of how it is accepted or not, based in what we KNOW and believe and what we think may be helpful.

I hear your frustration, I even share your frustration. I have several times been "at the verge of leaving MB" for the very reasons you cite. I stay to hopefully help a few, recognizing that I probably can't help many, let alone all.

There WILL come a day, or so I think, that I will "Fade into the sunset" and stop posting. After 4 and half years, I already post much less than I used to, so it's not hard for me to begin to "let go" and "let others," if you understand what I'm trying to say.



A very good idea, actually, imvho, as well as "how" and "where."


God bless.