Lucy,

I did something similar to you, I had given my XWH deadlines and kept extending it. Finally I gave him one last deadline, and he didn't respond back. His excuse was, he has not figured out what it is that he wanted, yet he was more committed to OW then to me and his 5 children. So I took my loss and left.

XWH gave up on 18 yrs. marriage and 5 beautiful children, for MOW who was on her 4th husband. Long story short, now XWH and MOW are not together, he found out she had another man on the side. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Now XWH realizes he made a huge mistake, but it's too late now. I've moved on and happier than when I was in the marriage.

I realize that even if I were to reconcile, there would be a tremendous trust issue and I honestly can't deal with that. He ruined it with so many lies and deceptions, not only with me but our children as well.

I often wondered when I should give up...the answer I got back was..."you'll know when"...they were right. No one knows but you.


I wish you the best of luck.

Hugs

Thank you Immovingon. I've actually just finished writing my 'one last deadline' this very second and am posting it quickly here to see if it sounds ok.

I'm seeing WH to pick up our daughter in about 1.5 hours. I'd really appreciate some feedback. Affair has been ongoing for almost 2 years, we've been separated for 12 months and even though OW was on other side of world for last 7 months and me and daughter were RIGHT HERE...he has not made one move toward us.

Here it is, critisism welcomed:

WH,

I’ve gotten to the point now where enough is enough for me. What would I say to my daughter if someone was doing to her what you’re doing to me? Would I teach her it’s ok for a man to treat her with horrendous abuse and that she should wait and wait and become a doormat? I’m not going to teach my daughter that. I’m going to teach her that she deserves love and respect because she is precious and more valuable than gold. But I can hardly teach her those things when I don’t apply them to myself.

I admit over the last 12 months I’ve let you treat me the way you have because I felt invaluable and that somehow I deserved it. I know now that I don’t. I know that I’m a loving, sociable, intelligent, attractive, strong woman and if you aren’t going to treat me with dignity, love and respect, you aren’t going to treat me at all.

You’ve had 2 years of doing things your way, in your time and without a care or a concern toward your family. You completely abandoned us and haven’t made one move in over 12 months to fix the horror you’ve created. You don’t need anymore time to make your decision.

I’m giving you till 31st January to make a decision and there will be no further time after that. You have till that day to have ended your relationship with your girlfriend. If I don’t hear from you then I will be taking it that you have decided to end our marriage. These are my final terms and they are not up for negotiation. I do love you but you’ve had plenty of time and I’m ready to get on with my life – with or without you.

LucyLoo

Don't give him yet another deadline, he's just going to let that one slide, too. He's having fun toying with you, seeing how long he can keep you hanging on. He moved the OW in with him -- he's given you his answer and now needs to feel the consequences of his decision.

Honestly, I'd suggest skipping the letter you wrote entirely, and going with a fabulous Plan B letter instead, when you have more than an hour and a half to get a really great Plan B in place.

If you're not ready for that, then at least scale it back and acknowledge his decision:

Thanks AmIok!!

I like what you wrote.

It's so hard to know where to go and what to really do from here.

I feel a plan B would just be laughed at because for 12 months I have been pretty dark...and it hasn't affected him at all.

I think I'll do what you suggested and hold the letter for now. it's more an act of desperation - and nothing much good ever comes from that. I don't understand why he's making me hold on. He's told me he doens't love me for 12 months and that he made a mistake in marrying me. Why doesn't he just end it with me? It's not like he's even called me to talk in the last 12 months. Not one phone call! That's why I think this is just a big game to him and that, as I've said all along, he just wants ME to make the decision so he doesn't have to be held responsible for the actual end.

I love busted big time today when I picked my daughter up. She came home saying 'Aunty Lisa' over and over again. So I asked WH who Aunty Lisa was because daughter was saying it over again. He said he had no idea, that he has been on his own all day and doesn't even know a Lisa in my country. So what did big mouth me say? 'Maybe she meant 'OW'...afterall, that's what she came home saying last week'.

I got a mouth full then. I'm wondering now if OW is infact not here. He alluded to my 'conspiracy theories' but I've made several remarks to him that I know she's arrived and he's never denied it - and believe me, if my husband is accused of something that isn't true I WOULD HEAR ABOUT IT!! Unless he's playing a different game with me now.

Anyway, I swallowed my pride and sent an apology via text. I told him that if I was trying to provoke SOME sort of reaction from him, it came from wanting to know that he still cared in some way. I said 'I feel you've made a decision. Is this true'?

I don't know why I'm suprised that he completely ignored me.

I have a friend that I love very much and who has been my main mentor through this, but I'm often afraid to tell her of the mistakes I've made because I fear her judgements. It's funny though, isn't it...I can come here and let my mistakes be known and not feel judged at all even if someone says 'hey, wake up!! Stop what you're doing'.

I guess it helps that you're all in the same boat.

I had a good cry tonight, 'knowing' that he really just doens't give a sh&* about me and still finding it so hard to comprehend that someone could treat like this.

I just don't want to be with this man anymore. I think I've made the decision to give him til my birthday (about 3 months away) to end his relationship with her and commit to us, and if he doesn't, I'm going to file and get on with my life.

Does this seem reasonable?

I think I would trust my daughter over WH.

If you file, will you be able to get child support?

I've been getting child support since he arrived out here in May '05 which is good. So nothing would change. He'll continue to live his life the way he wants...infact he'll probably rejoice cause I finally gave him what he wanted!

Is there a court-ordered custody/visitation agreement in place?

If YOU are not ready to take the next step, then that's one thing -- then give yourself a new timeline to make your own decisions.

But I really wouldn't keep giving him new deadlines (3 more months now). He's given you the only answer he's going to give you under the current circiumstances. Until you force a change in the circumstances, I don't think you're going to get any other response.

How, exactly you would force that change, I don't know. I would have said Plan B, but you said that's basically already there .... so there's always a darker Plan B, which wouldn't hurt, but probably wouldn't be all that effective in teh area of forcing some action on his part.

Are there some other legal options available if you aren't ready to file for D? Legal separation, formal legal custody arrangements, etc.? I don't know anything about legal systems outside of the US, so I have no idea what options you might be able to look at...


Whatever you do, don't keep giving him the power to keep dragging you along. He's made his choice, he's just too weak to actually say it to you. Now it's YOUR turn to make choices and take some action. To take care of you, just like you'd want your daughter to do.

Thank you for your responses. I've been away for the week -was great to get away, take stock, calm down and think things through.

I've decided to give MYSELF til my birthday to do nothing but continue to work on me...go to counselling, go full steam ahead with my new business (wedding invitations of all things..Ha!) and just make this year about ME. I'm not giving HIM 3 months...no more dead-lines, not more ultimatums...no more anything really! I think this will allow me to just slow down, stay VERY dark and decide once and for all what I want.

I am scared to make anything legal as far as custody of our daughter goes. At the moment he has her for one full day a week, and laws changed big time over here this year so that fathers get to have their children as much as possible. I can't bare the thought of 'sharing' her with him. I guess that sounds selfish...but this man walked out of her life for 7 MONTHS! I wasn't the one to choose to walk away from her...he did!!! (I'm preaching to the converted here, I know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). I don't want to loose my daughter! We are advised over here to try and keep things out of court...for parents to make the decision between themselves if at all possible.

He knows he's free to come and see her after work at ANY TIME. He doesn't! He has her his one day and he seems happy with that. He did ask if he could have her overnights and I said no - she is too young, and we would re-evaluate that when she's 3. Well, that's not far away (6 months) and even then I feel she is too young. Sometimes she doesn't want to go with him and will cry and it would kill me to not be with her overnight...not knowing how she is, and knowing he'd never call me when circumstances meant he probably should.

Am I being unreasonalbe?

There doesn't seem to be any such thing as legal separation here, but there is something called a Parenting Plan which is legally binding. I'm just afraid to rock the boat with even mentioning something like that to him.

I really appreciate your responses. It was nice to come home to some today. What you said AmIok about him having made his choice has hit home. I feel 2007 is going to be my year!!

I just found out last night that OW DID arrive in my country on Christmas Day and is living with WH!!!

All kept secret from me and denied. WH made a comment about my 'conspiracy theories' so, for about a month I've doubted my own sanity and started to think maybe she wasn't here after all.

Well, a few days ago, an old friend from friends reunited contacted me. I couldn't believe it. Forgot I'd even registered. So was on the site at midnight last night looking at my profile. Then I thought..wonder if OW is there? Sure enough there she was...and in her description said she'd emigrated to Oz, was living with her boyfriend by the beach (right where WH lives), said her brother is here in another state (which I knew from snooping) and that she was here for 12 months (on working holiday visa).

At least now I know I'm not crazy, and that when my daughter comes home saying 'Aunty Lisa' (not OW's real name) I'm sure it's a fake name WH uses around her so she won't come home saying OW real name and give their game away.

What do I do? This man has been cheating on me for 2 years, moves his girlfriend out here to live with him and still is stringing me along saying he's not sure when he can give me an answer to my offer of reconciliation.

What do I do with this new piece of information? I'm really beginning to feel loathing for him.

Turn her into INS or whatever agency handles incoming foreigners. Question her status and say that you suspect she is here to take unfair advantage of your country and their citizens (namely your family).

How awful!!! Makes me mad!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Good idea!

It's so hard to comprehend the injustice I feel that has been done to my family by the two of them. I've not felt injustice like this since I was in primary school and couldn't understand how girls could be so mean and nasty to each other. Now it's not primary girls, it's a grown woman and my husband. How do people do this to each other? This is such a sick world!

There are millions of people starving, people being murdered, children being abused. We are so fortunate to live in the countries we do and yet we have no appreciation for what we've been given. Instead, we fight, we hate, we break up families. We're just given too much and therefore all we want is more. I can't understand it.

People, is it time to file for D?

His A has been going on for 2 years. We've been separated for 13 months exactly today. He's moved his girlfriend over here from the UK without telling me and suggested me and my conspiracies go somewhere else when I confronted him with it. Last night I got absolute proof she is here living with him and has been since 26th December.

He's never called to ask how I am, he's never shown any true remorse, he holds to his theory that it was a mistake from the beginning to marry me. He's threatened to kill my father, he's treated me with disdain. I've told him I still love him, can't imagine stopping and will commit 100% to marriage counselling if he ends his relatinship with OW. That was back in November. There is just pure coldness between us. We don't even say hello or goodbye when he picks our daughter up. I realised that things were pleasant between us for months because I was making them that way. When I pulled back and stopped any effort, everything went dead.

I can't believe my marriage has come to this. But I look back on his behaviour during our entire 8 years together, and he was far less invested than I was.

I'm not saying I was perfect. We all know I wasn't, no questions asked, and we had a terrible time with SF. I've learned a LOT from this.

But I'm the type that doesn't know when to let go.

I musta missed this b4....he threatened to kill your father? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> No need for a reason...this is wrong. Wrong enough to file charges and prevent him from seeing your D.

JMHO,
L.

Yep, when he first arrived back here, and came to our house to see his daughter, my dad asked to speak to him and told him he could do what he wanted to all of us, but if he ever came between the relationship between me and my daughter he would answer to my Dad.

This happened back in May. He texted me and told me to tell my Dad that he would kill him if he ever did that again. I replied and said 'I've told Dad you would kill him' he replied 'I stand by what I said'. He then said he was never coming back here so we've been meeting at the local train station to do the swap over with our daughter.

Just before Christmas he relayed that night to me, telling me I 'didn't care' (I wasn't even there but I did tell him my Dad shouldn't have said anything and that I had asked him not to).

Fast forward to Christmas time and he said in a messenger conversation 'You didn't care that night' he said. He then told me he almost couldn't control his rage for my father. That if he'd started on him that night he wouldn't have stopped. He said 'I'd have smashed his head over and over and over into the ground and I wouldnt have stopped. And I still feel the same rage for him today that I felt that night'. That scared me since 7 months had passed since the incident.

We did file a police report, but I get the feeling Australian laws are different to the US. The police told my dad that night that if WH took our daughter away and didn't bring her back to me one day, they couldn't do a thing about it.

I feel so helpless and hopeless. I just can't believe it's come to this. I would never have imagined in my wildest dreams he'd have an affair, let alone leave me, treat me like I'm a nobody to him from the night he left and then bring OW out to live with him.

Here's a funny thing I found last night. Way back when emails were flying between his mother, my dad and me WH wrote to my father:
"LucyLoo chooses to tell you that OW is moving out to Australia to be with me which is the biggest lie and totally opposite of what I told her. LucyLoo you disgust me and prove yourself to be a totally deceitful and disgraceful liar. Your lies will be revealed for what they are"

Can you believe that? and here we are, OW secretly living out here with him. This kind of stuff above is what I've lived with our entire marriage. Not that nasty of course, but him convincing me I was insane on so many things - just like the above. That's when I started to self-harm because I thought I was loosing my marbles, and thought that I must just put my trust in him and the things he'd say because I must be way off the mark about so many things. I'm not trying to find an excuse for self-harming, and I haven't done it for years, but the above statement from him, making out I'm a disgusting deceitful liar when it is infact HIM is an example of what was happening in our marriage that drove me to the point of harming myself out of self-hatred and total frustration.

Now, I'm not trying to paint a one-sided picture here...I made many mistakes, but how do I get to the truth of what's happened between us? he's given me mixed messages about everything 'I loved you the same way I love her, but your expectations killed it', 'I've lived with a sick feeling in my stomach for the entire time we've been together knowing I'd made a mistake'. 'I loved you with all my heart', 'I buried my doubts so deeply. I should never have married you'. The same with SF 'How did you expect me to keep my feelings for you when you didn't give me what every man needs?' 'SF had nothing to do with it, it would be easy to blame it on that, but it really wasnt't that big a deal for me'. etc etc.

Part of me just says (along with everyone else) 'this is so over, get on with your life' to 'you made vows. try to save him'.

Which path do I take, and do I really havea choice anyway?

The path you take is one that will keep you and your family safe from the WS.

When the WS resorts to lies, threats and deceit, then it is time to sever the ties that bind until it is safe and he proves he is worthy to be in the presence of you and your family (aka: plan B).

Take all threats seriously. Play back the lies when appropriate (i.e. to make a point). Do it in front of eye witnesses not afraid to speak up in your behalf as needed.

Expect the Ws to reach deep down into his crap to make you look and feel bad. Realize this and know NOT to fall for is hurt. Instead learn how to give him back his guilt. Tools like reverse babble help.

take care,
L.

My big update. I’d really like opinions as to whether WH is spinning me a story and is just going deeper into hiding the A, or if the A may actually be coming to an end.

Here goes….(it’ll be long, so apologies up front).

A week before Christmas it was an absolute fluke that I found out some information that OW was moving to Oz on Christmas Day! I confronted WH who just ignored me. Didn’t deny it or confirm it. Throughout January he made me believe she was not out here and said I was a ‘conspiracy theorist’. I started to believe that maybe the information was not correct and I was wrong.

Last week a friend who I haven’t spoken to in 5 years contacted me through friends reunited. What a surprise that was. Didn’t even know I’d registered!! A few days later I thought I’d better see what my profile was. Once I did, I thought ‘I wonder if OW has registered’. And what do you know…there she was. Her profile said she was leaving UK on Christmas Day and emigrating to Oz…with her ‘boyfriend’. Under marital status it said ‘living with someone’. I knew it was her because she mentioned a brother out here as well, and it also had the schools she went to…which I knew also.

I kept the info to myself for a week, then yesterday confronted WH with it. I (as Orchid suggested above) ‘played back’ one of his lies in particular. This conversation took place on messenger. I wrote:

Do you remember writing this in an email to my father.. "LucyLoo chooses to tell you that OW is moving out to Australia to be with me which is the biggest lie and totally opposite of what I told her. LucyLoo you disgust me and prove yourself to be a totally deceitful and disgraceful liar. Your lies will be revealed for what they are"

Yes, he said.

What do you have to say about that now? I asked.

The same, he said.

To spare you all the details, I came straight out and told him I knew OW was here and living with him. He insisted I tell him how…so I did. He then said the following:

Lucyloo, i have never asked, arranged or requested OW comes out to Australia. OW is only living with me while she finds somewhere to live. any day now she will be moving into her own place

I said: why? why would she? You’ve left your family for her. She's emigrated over here for you. Why would you not live together?

He said: because it is not a relationship that i can pursue or is right to pursue.

I asked if OW knew that. He said ‘yes, she does’.

I asked why she calls him her boyfriend. He said ‘no doubt because she wanted that to be the case when she wrote it Lucyloo’.

I said ‘so your using her then? Your having SF with her, then you’re going to dump her?’
He said ‘whatever’.

To cut out all the middle part, we ended on a good note. He said he will never be more sorry for how much he’s hurt me and our daughter, and that no matter what my faults, they never deserved the betrayal I feel. But he reiterated that he’d only be coming back to the marriage out of guilt. He said he had reservations before we were married and though he was in love with me and would never deny that, he married me more for me than for himself. He cared more about not hurting me than being honest with himself.

I told him I accepted his apology. But I told him I can’t live with someone that feels that way about me. I told him I would give him the divorce he wants. I told him I wish he’d been honest with me from the start. That I’d given him plenty of opportunities to end our relationship before we were married but all I’d heard from him was ‘you’re the one’. ‘I just ‘know’’, ‘You’ve got the whole package’, ‘I’m going to spend my whole life with you’. He didn’t say much to all that.

We then talked about God. I told him how satan wraps sin in a beautiful coat. He makes it look inviting. He says ‘come this way…it won’t hurt you!’. Because if he showed you the end of the path if you followed his desires for you…you’d run a mile in the opposite direction.

He said ‘I think about this daily’.

He then told me that OW is not in our daughter’s life. He said he spends his day with her on their own. I thanked him and told him how much I appreciated that and said how honourable and noble it was. He said he’d have happily told me sooner but didn’t think I’d have believed him.

He ended it by telling me (and I don’t actually think he had ANY intention of letting me know this AT ALL…but because our conversation ended well he did)..that he is moving out of his apartment because the owners are selling it.

I invited him to my church. He said he'd come (but not this weekend because he needed to house hunt).

So…my question…

He seems to realise his affair is wrong wrong wrong and has no future. He’s not interested in giving us another go because everytime we have any contact it’s fighting (I told him this wasn’t true…that for 5 months I’d been pleasant and friendly towards him until I found out OW was coming). The strange parts are:

OW changed her profile THAT VERY NIGHT …changed marital status to Single and removed most of the other information about moving out here with her boyfriend.

WH said OW is only staying with him until she finds another place to live…and at the end of our conversation only then admits he too is finding another place to live.

Is he coming out of this affair, or is he going deeper with all the lies. Did he say to OW ‘quick, change all the incriminating evidence on your friends reunited profile cause the wife found it and the story’s going to spread!’, or did he somehow just bring it up with her and get her to change all that she wrote because he knows their relationship has no future? Why the urgency in having her change the details?

Am I being suckered in with more lies, or do you think he’s telling the truth?

Sorry for the length of this.

IMHO? Suckered. The feelings your post stirred up were exactly how I felt when the WS strung me a similar line.

He ain't done being a WS....yet. He is still babbling.

So let us know when u r ready to give us that OW's link. LOL!!! I'd like t/d a bit o' RB on her 2. LOL!!

Yes....like she has such a hold on her BF that now she has t/g underground to have an A? Stupid OW. She is a bimbo at best.

Let her rot. You can bet he will bring your Dd around the OW. Now go secure some info to prevent it or let all know what a bad person she really is.

L.

L.

Oh darn. Do you really think so? (What's RB by the way).

You raise a good point though....I can use the good place he and I are in right now to get some really good stuff happening with a parent plan (such as Ow is not to be anywhere around daughter).

Would I be right in saying that if I put this point in a parenting plan (which is a legal document in this country) then he should have no contentions about it (if he really doesn't have OW around daughter) and if he DOES have a problem with it, then I know he has every intention of having OW around her?

I have to say my heart sank when I saw how quickly she changed her profile. I'm assuming it's more likely that he said 'stupid wife found your profile' rather than 'someone foundy your profile and I think it'd be a better idea if you changed it since we aren't really 'together' and you're moving out soon!' I want to have some hope with him. He seemed really genuine at the end, especially the way he said OW isn't in daughter's life.

Daughter comes home saying 'Aunty Lisa' all the time. That's NOT OW's name. WH said a month ago when I asked him who Aunty Lisa was that he had no idea. I believed him. Am I too believing?

When I picked daughter up from him today, he looked at me. lingering. Hasn't looked at me like that in a while.

Thanks for your responses Orchid. You've been the only responder for a little while now!

RB - reverse babble. Check out the link in my signature line. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You should wonder out loud why your child is coming home with the name of STRANGE PEOPLE! That should also be part of your report.


As for him contending the issues. Expect him to try. He is a Ws who is lying badly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Use this wisely....that c/b all in your favor as a BS. Not for the M but to get him to spit our his fair share for you and your Dd.

I will check back later this afternoon. Gotta go to a meeting..... already late.

take care,
L.