I'm a guy, so by default I guess sometimes I worry about me.

If you think about it there really isn't much of a support network when it comes to guys. Oh sure we have our buddies who we confide in, and of course there is always the internet, which can be very beneficial for anyone looking for support and advice. But officially speaking there isn't much out there for the guy who is struggling with the problems of life. Job, relationships, kids, etc. Women face this same challenge, but it seems to me that women have an easier time of gaining support from their peers and sometimes, more importantly, from society. That's where a guy will swiftly find himself alone. What guy is going to admit he's in an abusive relationship? What guy is going to seek help because he doesn't know how to overcome the problems of job, wife, kids? So what can happen is that guys just keep all this stuff bottled up inside. Where it simmers and far too often turns ugly, ugliness that you hear about exploding in spectacular fashion when the guy can no longer deal with it anymore. It's no coincidence to me that when a guy kills himself he does so in spectacularly violent fashion, whereas women tend to do so in a more muted fashion. It's also common for a guy in turmoil like that to lash out at others. Family, friends, you name it, no one is safe if things get enough out of hand.

Now bear with me and don't get (too) mad, but in a way I think the blame for some of this has to be put on the Women's Liberation movement. Notice I said some of the blame. The fact is guys are hard wired for a lot of this stuff. We're more aggressive, we tend to be more comfortable dealing with problems alone rather than by committee. But the traditional western notion of the nuclear family has been turned on its ear in large part due to the shift in social values precipitated by movements like Women’s Liberation. I think a lot of good has come from these changes, but where we've messed up is that in tearing down certain social structures we haven't replaced them with something else that works better. So you've got a bunch of men plodding along trying to fill the traditional husband/father/provider role, but when the going gets rocky suddenly the very social institution the man has been trying to support and fulfill turns out not to exist. That has got to create a phenomenal amount of frustration in a guy, frustration he has no outlet for, no means of even articulating this turmoil. And so you see a lot of guys self-destruct under the pressure, and all that comes from it is a headline in the paper or the lead spot on the evening news.

Consider the guy who barricaded himself in the Amish schoolhouse and shot and killed so many innocent little girls. That guy was in serious turmoil and he had no way of dealing with that turmoil. His anger was directed towards women, and not an image of women one could associate with anything but goodness and decentness. That guy was mad at mom and apple pie, and when he snapped it got about as ugly as anyone can imagine. Don't get me wrong I'm not giving that guy a pass, but what I am wondering is how much that act and countless other acts of violence committed by husbands and fathers, men who seem on the surface to be good people, people trying to do the right thing (as opposed to the image of a guy making babies and doing everything he can to dodge that responsibility) is the result of evil, or instead a sign that there is a problem with the social role men are trying to fulfill today? Most of the time the guys who seem to self-destruct the most spectacularly are the guys you'd think are the ones with a lot going for them (like the guy who shoot up the Amish school). In a way I think that air of respectability makes it even harder for a guy to seek out the help he needs. He feels social pressure not to show that he is under turmoil, and so in refusing to admit a problem he makes himself that much more worse off. Acts that are "evil" can be written off by society as social aberrations, but if this is an indication of an underlying social problem, then we can't just say that these acts have no meaning.

Society has done a good job of accepting and understanding the plight of women and the dangers they can face in abusive relationships. We've put institutions in place to provide much needed support and we've done a lot to de-stigmatize the abused. Now it's time to look at the other half of the equation. Human social interaction is very complicated and understanding it is all but impossible. But the one thing we do know is that ignoring a problem doesn't make it better or make it go away.

Broom,

I can appreciate how you feel.In general I worry about society.We have made some strides for women,but clearly not enough.Personally I don't think it has as much to do with Womens' Lib as much as it's media and it's affect on our generation and the younger generation.It's amazing to me how much cr** is being played out and spoon fed to viewers that is oh so obvious to me.I largely ignore most of it so when I read the stuff or listen to it I am not surprised or taken in.

I don't see it that women have risen up and surpassed men but that we were trying to become equal partners.And because we may have a higher standard of life now doesn't mean we should be blamed for men's issues.It's cyclical.The media displays extra attention to certain groups,then the baton passes to another issue or group.And so on.For example,breast cancer research was way underfunded many years ago.It received a lot of attention in recent years that was long overdue but then the backlash came about men and prostate cancer.It's not one issue being better or more deserving of another.It's let's all contribute to what helps us all live healthy and meaningful lives.This would include having more opportunities for men to communicate their feelings and discuss problems.There are men's groups out there and also counselors.But if you choose not to seek help therein lies the problem IMO.Like the guy who shot the amish girls.He was a sick man and admitted what he was doing and why.He had options but instead chose to involve innocent young children in his sickness.Women have always been great communicators.We need to bring men into the fold and they have to be willing to nurture that part of themsleves..

Women are plodding along too with our multitude of roles,as we have done for a long time.

There are so many issues plaguing our society today.I am reading an interesting book called "American Mania: When more is not enough" by Peter Whybrow,MD.Basically about our unrest,consumerism and what makes us happy,etc.I am trying to live a life of simplicity and one closer to God.It seems to make the most sense to me at this stage in my life.Keeps me on the straight and narrow.

Lastly,I think the original framework of a family and marriage are sound but we have long since found numerous ways to destroy it all.It's our own fault.It's not as valued or cherished anymore,not in our disposable and fast paced ,me,me,me world.I miss the comfort and happiness of what my marriage and our family meant to me.It's dead and I still mourn for it.Not my exwh,I'm glad he's gone.I just hope my kids will be ok when they are adults.I am trying to nurture them as best I can and make a stable home life even though the husband and father is no longer part of our lives the way we deserved and needed.

Heya, thanks for taking the time to respond!

Yesterday there was a local news story where a man and woman got into a fight on the interstate and when the woman got out of the car with their child the man shot and killed himself. There was also another local story earlier this year where a man, whose wife was divorcing him, shot and killed their two young sons and then killed himself. Afterward it was discovered that his motivation in doing this crime was to hurt his wife as much as possible. Those events made me think about my experiences and what I know a lot of guys go through in daily life and in the emotionally charged events of a marriage breakup. I don't mean to seem like I'm blaming Women's Liberation, but I feel a failure of that movement has been to ignore it's impact on men and on women who may not choose to accept every facet of their changing role in society. I agree with you that this is overall a societal problem and curtailing the rights of one party (women) for the betterment of another (men) is wrong. But I'm pondering what our reaction should be to such extremes of behavior that we see happen far more regularly than I think society likes to admit. Every guy may not totally lose it and go on a killing spree, but similar feelings seem to be a part of the male psyche and to ignore that is a huge mistake.

I guess in a way I'm questioning the entire concept of marriage as we know it in the Western tradition.

Yeah me too.I truly feel after being here years and also witnessing friends and other couples that there is a huge misconception about what marriage is/should be and how to be fulfilled individuals.

I love the idea of spending my life with one person,intimately, and being able to count on them as well as love them and be loved and cared about.I think,in part,many couples look to the marriage to solve problems,make them happy and sustain itself.But really what you are asking is that of the other person and failing to nurture that relationship which the marriage represents.A marriage is what you make it.I always used to tell my wh that.Our marriage was failing because it takes two to keep it alive and thrive,he was letting it die while I was busy trying CPR.

Lots of people out there are very troubled.I can recall several women who have murdered their own children for whatever purpose: other men,mental illness,voices from "God",etc.In certain instances I feel it's a tragic and severe call for help.Acting out and committing suicide.I can appreciate,to some degree, the depths of pain that make you think horrible thoughts.Death,suicide and rage.

I still don't think marriage has anything to do with the failure.It's us.We need to ask ourselves what we want and need from one another.Marriage doesn't protect us,we need to protect it .We build it up to be this thing that is supposed to be the answer to our problems somehow.It should be a safe place and nurturing and loving, comfortable place but it takes work to make it that way for both in it.It seems to me that that balance is almost always off then you hear about the A's and D's,etc.

I think most of us walk around in our daily lives with a ton of emotion going on.It's how we handle it that is telling.

It's an interesting topic you brought up.

Good point. There is a powerful misconception regarding marriage, and I think most divorces result in large part because of our not understanding what it takes to make a marriage work in the first place. I also wonder, and this ties back to my railing against Women's Liberation, if in the past people had a higher tolerance towards marital compromise? Most couples that have been married long term admit that their marriage hasn't always been storybook, but that they stuck it out anyway. As social mores changed people's expectations in marriage became more focused on the individual, themself, as opposed to each other. Perhaps I'm being simplistic (disingenuous perhaps?) in trying to blame this on Women's Lib, but I can't help but feel that women are initiating divorce now more than ever, and that this isn't the result of bad behavior on the part of their husbands so much as a growing dissatisfaction women have with the insitution of marriage.

I've probably revealed too much about myself here. My own insecurities, rather than exposing some social truth, but this is an impression I've been getting lately from talking to people who are divorcing.

I was in an abusive relationship. Felt like I had no option but stare at the floor and just take it. Thats what I did for 10 years, just take it. Didn't scream back, didn't hit back, didn't do anything back. She had all the cards. The legal system will be sure to destroy me fianancially. She even said so, threatening all the time to "destroy me and take me for all you are worth."

Now, she is going to be retired off my lifetime earnings and walk away with at least half of what I have made so far. I just can't believe this is legal at all.

I know about snapping too. One night, she was just screaming away without mercy, and I just reached down and put on my shoes, tied my laces, stood up and started walking for the door. I did all that like I was watching myself in a movie. She asked me what I was doing as I was stepping over my little girls shoes, and I stopped, turned around and sat back down, and she continued on screaming at me.

If it hadn't been for those little girl shoes in the floor, I would have just left, with no concious thought about it whatsoever.

Other times, she would be screaming at me, and I didn't hear a word, because internally, I was debating the merits of different forms of suicide. How I should do it, what paperwork should be in place first, blah blah. I even checked with the insurance agent as to whether my life insurance policy would payoff. I claimed I was settling a bet among friends about life insurance paying off in a suicide.

My friends were worried that she was going to kill me. If I was late at work, they thought the worst. I was worried I was going to die from a heartattack or that she was going to shoot me while I was asleep.

It was just an awful, miserable existance. Now, she owns me for the rest of her life. I feel like I have lost everything. The girls don't seem to care when I call to say Hi. They are pretty happy when they are with me, but they call or text her the whole time they are with me. She has 100% control over them and what they think of me.

I have to start all over in life, but now with a huge financial liability because I have to make her retirement payments for the rest of my life.

I just can't believe your wife can treat you like she did me, and then be retired, and its legal.

You are right. There is no support for the abused men. Nobody to talk to. You are just supposed to suck it up and take it.

I taped her and played if for my counselor to see if I was just overreacting to it all. He was shocked. He said it was the worst he ever heard, and "it was extremely abusive, degrading and no human should have to live like that."

I played a few minutes of the tape for a friend of mine and he was shocked. He couldn't take it for even a couple of minutes. He just said, "you have to get out of there."

Its just sickening. My life is a disaster now, and I don't even know what I could have done to prevent it. There is no recourse for me, no justice.

My friends want me to start dating, and I look at women and all I think about is how painful the last 10 years have been. I wonder if I will ever get over this.

Broom,


I think the Women's Liberation movement has created the unwanted 'side effect' of creating conditions in which more and more women are choosing to leave marriages due to general dissatisfaction with men who are following some traditional male roles (verses being abusive, "bad behavior", etc.) Specifically, I think the influx of women into the workforce has caused this and other negative 'side effects' to our society. Women are now having affairs in record numbers that almost equal the number of men who have affairs. The primary reason given for this rise is the increase in opportunities to have affairs as more and more men and women spend hours and hours together each day in workplaces.

I think that men need their own movement or revolution. And, I think it needs to be lead by men -- not to re-establish traditional gender roles -- but to create new, productive roles for the society we have today. Women are not going to be ejected from the workforce any time soon. The new financial power that they have means that they are both more vulnerable to other romantic distractions (just as men have been for centuries) and more likely to evalulate their partners on a more exacting set of criteria. Men's support has to become more than a club of reminiscing guys rehashing the semi-glorious past when life was simpler. Life WAS simpler, perhps, for men and women. Women didn't have the stress of mulitple roles: breadwinner AND homemaker AND primary care-giver. Men didn't have to exert so much effort to earn respect from the relationship.

The Women's Liberation movement created opportunities. Opportunities created changes -- some good and some bad. Changes in women's behaviors (feminine culture) is slowly making changes in male behaviors (masculine culture) inevitable. Until those changes are made and become the 'norm' then I think you'll see the type of disturbing male behavior that you're describing.

I'll offer another very disturbing indication of the struggle that men in our society are going through right now. I was watching a Dateline special "To Catch a Predator" which is about how the online community is creating opportunities for men to solicit sex from underage girls. The show uses decoys posing as 13-15 year old girls AND boys who enter chat rooms and wait to be solicited. Then, the men* are given the opportunity to come over to a house and be alone with the underage child. After the men arrive, they are questioned on camera by the show's host and, as they leave, they are arrested. (*Note: They aren't specifically targeting men, it's just that men overwhelmingly use this method to solicit underage sex (according to various studies on the site). There are female predators out there but they don't tend to use online methods. In all the time the decoys (Perverted Justice) have been doing this service, they've only been approached by 1 woman.)

What I found interesting about the show is that many of the men were married, had girlfriends, or were engaged to be married. A large number of them seemed to be fascinated with the fantasy of virginity and innocence (verses a pre-pubescent pedophilic fantasy). They seemed to like the power fantasy of being able to guide, awaken, or teach a young woman about sexuality. I wonder if this is a reflection of the powerlessness that many men feel in society and the other side of the coin of the violent acting out you described. Men are craving respect and admiration that they used to get as being the defacto head of the household. With today's blurring of gender roles, men are left struggling with a lack of respect (percieved or actual) in relationships and, some men, seem to be sexually preying on children to fill that desire.

Once again, technology and advancement has created undesireable 'side effects' of opportunity. The internet is now part of our new reality. It's not going away even with this side effect. Our society and those who care for children have to adjust to this new reality.

I hope that men have a cultural revolution that helps them find more productive ways to support each other and deal with the change of the last century. I think it will only work if it's lead BY men FOR men. I don't think that the revolution should "change men to be more like women" because I don't think men OR women would be happy with that change. I think that's the reason men have to be the leaders of this -- let's face it, we women can't teach what we don't know. Our ideas would tend to be along the lines of "how we did/do it" rather than finding different, masculine, ways. I think it's a tremendous disservice to the intelligence, ingenuity, and flexibilty of men to claim that they "can't" change and that the only solution is to try to unwind and undo all the changes our society has done.

Looking at the past to see how our society got "here" is useful. Beyond that, the road lies ahead and whatever is done to make this "work" for men and women is out there, somewhere. You can't unscramble this egg. There are too many economic, cultural, technological advances to overcome. The river has rushed forward and the only way I can see for men to solve this probelm is by innovating new ways to be men in the reality that we have now -- not in the reality that we used to have...

Mys

*I'm not suggesting that women don't need to change still -- we have a lot of work and adjusting to do. There's another good reason men need to do this for themselves -- we're busy!!

Easy first cut solution - don't get married.
Second cut solution - don't agree she can stay home with the kids. You stay home or no one stays home.

More "serious" but equally unlikely solution - figure out a different way to fund alimony other than "dad takes it on the chin". If we think that marriage is the best structure for raising kids and having one parent stay home at least for the first few years, then we are going to have to create a legal system in which both spouses are willing to take the "risk" associated with agreeing to that arrangement. Otherwise, a few more years / decades and men in the USA are going to realize that the divorce laws under the current legal system are tremendously unfair. Unless we change the system, you may see men avoiding marriage in droves, and telling their sons who do get married not to let their wives stay home with the kids.

Don't think it can happen? Look at Japan today. Marriage is such a bad deal for women that many of them are not getting married at all. And not having any kids. The population of Japan is dropping like a rock, and the average age is skyrocketing.

In the name of not letting men be "deadbeat dads", we have let the pendulum swing way too far over the other way. If we don't adjust the system, men will turn to self-help. As others have noted on this thread, that tends to get real ugly real fast.

There is no perfectly fair system. In the typical marriage, men and women bring different things to the marriage and seek to obtain different things from the marriage. Not all of those things are amendable to be split 50-50 upon divorce or to be subject to continuing claims after the divorce. Any system will be "unfair" in some situations because in the typical case we are trying to give her some of his oranges and give him some of her apples, and she gets to keep all her pineapples and he gets to keep all his bananas. No matter what you do, you aren't going to wind up with each of them getting the same mix of fruit.

Hold


Don't get married and don't have children out of wedlock if you're a man. If you have a child out of wedlock, you still get to pay child support but you probably have even less favorable custody outcomes assuming raising your children is important to you.

I really wonder what would happen to our society if the stay at home parent was more mixed - say 50/50. It's an intriguing idea and I wonder if it would change the balance of how things are perceived.


The risk runs both ways -- alimony is designed (supposed) to compensate for the years of lost experience that women take from being out of the work place. If a woman is out of the job market for 10 years raising children, then her ability to get a job that supports her married lifestyle is greatly decreased. Men do take the risk that they will have to share their future earnings with an ex-wife. Women take a risk that they will have to enter the job market far behind their peers who never left.


I think you'll see people (men and women) avoiding marriage. Women are filling for divorce much more often than men are -- that speaks of dissatisfaction on both sides.


Right.

Mys

Wow, excellent analysis and comentary! Well put by both Mys and Hold. I must say a lot of that never occurred to me, although I can easily see the connection between what the two of you have said and my initial thoughts and impressions. I'm very pleased with the direction this thread has taken. As I struggle in my marriage it helps to understand (or in my case to strive to understand) the underlying dynamics I face, and at times create for myself.

Beattodeath:

First off brother I feel your pain! There has been a lot of abuse in my marriage by my wife that mirrors what you've faced. So many of my current problems stem from my inability to deal with this abuse. In my case my biggest mistake was not in setting boundries with my wife regarding how we both interact with each other. Clearly set boundries allow one to dictate what is and is not acceptable behavior. When that line is crossed both parties know that either one of you has a valid reason to take drastic action (separate, etc.). It was tough for me because my wife would always say to me that it was my own fault for not standing up to her in the first place. And she was right. Eventually I took that to mean that I should just blast right back at her and treat her like she treated me, but the result of that was to damage the relationship even further. Rest assured if my marriage fails and I do remarry the one thing I'll make clear right up front will be the boundries of acceptable behavior!

As to your daughters I hope you can put aside your worries and fears and just stick to them and be a great dad. Right now they may not be as receptive to you and continue to take their cues from their mother but one day, and that day may not be that far off, they will realize for themselves who is genuine and who is being controlling. Just continuing to be there for them will firmly entrench in their minds that you are a good and loving dad. One they can always count on and go to when they have a problem. That's something they'll remember and cherish for the rest of their lives. Bad behavior is something they'll remember too. They may not understand it now, but as they grow up they'll realize the reality of the situation.

Good luck and know that you are not alone and that there are caring people in the world.

Broom

I tried to talk to her, to get her to see the screaming just wasn't right. Nothing helped. MC didn't help. And nobody understood until I started playing tapes.

In the rare case when she admited her actions were wrong, she would say "I was just angry" like that made it all ok and took the words back. The things she would say would just tear your heart out and make you feel like a worthless piece of crap.

She had a technique she used at night that just killed me. I would be in bed trying to sleep and when I was right at the point of falling sleep she would punch me, or make negative comments, or kick me, and keep it up until I said, "You are right, I admit it, I am a terrible husband, can I go to sleep now?" Say that a few thousand times and see how you feel about yourself.

I could go on and on about the crazy and weird stuff she said and did. People can't believe most of it and I can only prove so much of it as I only have a few hours of tapes. She comes across as a totally different person in public.

In the end its my fault tho, for putting up with it so long. I couldn't get her to understand, I just stayed too long. I just wanted my kids to know me before I moved out or something happened. I wanted them to know I loved them. I got as many hugs as I could, never missed a chance to give them some hugs or kisses or just play with them.

The money is one thing and thats an awful situation, but what can never be replaced is all those sweet little girl hugs I have missed. Nothing will ever makeup for that. It just makes me sick.

thanks for the encouragement. I lurk this site trying to learn what went wrong with me and how its supposed to be, and what happens after divorce, but I don't post much. Not really even sure what the point of marriage is anymore. I think my handle says it all.