Post deleted by eav1967

Eav, now that you understand this man for what he really is instead of what you wish he was - do you still think he is worth waiting for?
Mulan

I have to second Mulan's question.

If you are doing Plan B, then it is time to stop dissecting your WH, and only look at yourself. I truly understand your hope. You have to ask yourself WHO you are hoping for, and if he really exists.

He might think you could be together again. Distinct possiblity. In between the OW and the next one. You can be his plan b. If it doesn't work with OW I will go back and get fed up again then find another OW.

I know that sounds harsh but maybe hearing it will make you think of that possibility.

Set a time frame for your self and your WH. When will Eave move on. If he doesn't come home and start working on the M then I quit on what date?

It takes two to recover.

actually i've read SAA MANY MANY times and there is very little information about Plan B and NO reference to keeping your H out of your thoughts

many of the things that people say here are what comes from posts here...not from the Harley's

i've also spoken to Jennifer about this

Nearly all WSs exhibit narcissistic traits...it's a relatively frequent topic of discussion.

If your therapist believes that he is a genuine NPD and you agree with this then you must also realise that the possibility for true and lasting marital recovery is practically nil.

You must realize how strange it looks to someone who is not emotionally invested to watch as you simultaneously assert that a person with this disorder is incapable of the type of lifestyle and emotional maturity we recognize as "mature love" and wish for their return so you can have more of it.

Beware of "magical thinking" ...it's very pervasive in despairing BSs and very damaging.

I'm not saying that thinking of your WH and mourning the loss of a spouse is wrong, I'm saying that your focus may be on what you WANT to be true, not what IS true.

My WH is gone, not even to be with another woman, but to be with the thought of having another woman. To have the freedom to persue that dream girl. That pretty much put the nail in the coffin for me. It became apparent that our M was no longer important to WH. Like Frognomore said,



I'm not trying to discourage you from REAL recovery. God bless those that jump in and do the excruciatingly difficult task of muddling through all of the wreckage. I don't see your WH doing any jumping in. I do see a false recovery, however good it was in the beginning, WH left AGAIN.

I'm only suggesting that you really take focus off of your want for this M right now, and move forward in your personal recovery. At that point, you can revisit the question of your M. You may or may not feel the same way after a good separation from the subject for a while.

I really do understand, so much, how you are feeling. I feel your situation deeply, and wish that I could offer more hope.

I noticed this too. Now I see that most of the things you see written here in the forum about Plan A/B and exposure are derived from comments made by Dr. Harley on his radio show. For some reason, he has left a lot of these things out of his books.

The toughest thing for a BS to do is let go of their relationship with their spouse when what they really want is to recover their marriage.

While your spouse in having an affair (or seeking a new one), trying to recover your marriage is sort of like playing a slot machine. You keep putting in coins, over and over, and every once in a while the machine kicks out a few dollars. This keeps you playing the machine, hoping to hit the jackpot. How long should you keep feeding the machine? Will it ever hit the jackpot? Or should you just cut your losses and go somewhere else?

You've got this emotional investment in your marriage and losing it is like going bankrupt. And the problem is that only you can make the decision when to quit; counselors and friends can help you but can't decide for you.

The only real solution to your dilemma is to break away, work on yourself, re-focus your life on goals that do not include your WS, and carry on. You can spend your life worrying about whether an asteroid will strike the earth and wipe out all life forms, but worrying about it is fruitless because you have no control over it. The same is true of your WS.

Maybe the day would come when he would be willing to get the help he needs to be able to sustain a long term relationship, and maybe he would want to be back with you. And just maybe, you will still want him.

But until then, find a new life and a new happiness that doesn't require his presence.

While your spouse in having an affair (or seeking a new one), trying to recover your marriage is sort of like playing a slot machine. You keep putting in coins, over and over, and every once in a while the machine kicks out a few dollars. This keeps you playing the machine, hoping to hit the jackpot. How long should you keep feeding the machine? Will it ever hit the jackpot? Or should you just cut your losses and go somewhere else?




That is an outstanding analogy Hiker!

Wow, Hiker!

Great post! It sums it all up

I just skimmed over this today because I did a lot of reading about Narcisstic Personality Disorder during my H's A.

Not saying this is true for your WH, Eav, but it turns out that my H was GARDEN VARIETY WH rather than actually NPD.

Just like FOG, his features of NPD have steadily diminished.

I AGREE WITH NOODLE ON THIS ONE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WSes have features of NPD.

My H has said that both HE and THE OW were "SELFISH" and "NARCISSTIC". I think that was the problem during PLAN B. He saw her for what she REALLY was and like Narcissus saw himself in her....

ICK....worse than YUCK....

i guess my asking any questions to help me understand this situation...why it happened and if other have had any similar experiences will get me the same responses

plan B...focus on yourself...move on

in fact any post that i create that talks about my H gets the same response

reality is that i will not forget about my H, pretend he doesn't exsist, stop wondering about WHY it happened or what he is doing and i won't stop hopeing

i had a wonderful marraige to a great guy for 15 years and we were together for 19.....he IS worth waiting for....especially IF you believe what the harley's say....that almost all affairs end

also reality is, that i have continued to live my life without him in it while i have done all of the above...and i will continue to do so until I CHOOSE to do otherwise

so i'll exit this discussion and refrain from any others like it

and i will continue to disagree with all of those comments

in fact...if what you all have siad IS what plan B is all about....then I'm done with plan B and back to plan A

because my ONLY reason for plan B is to have a chance of recovering my M

Yeah..

I'm climbing aboard with Mimi here...

If you had a great M for 15 years and a relationship for 18 then why do you believe he has NPD?

A person can BEHAVE in a narcissistic manner without having an actual disorder.

If he does have it then your recovery chances are pretty slim.

If he doesn't but is behaving in a selfish and narcissistic manner then I don't see how that would differ from any WS situation.

History plays a role here in determining dysfunction.

Have you asked that counselor about this inconsistency?

Eav, we are all trying to tell you that Plan B *IS* the best chance of recovering your marriage. You are the one who rejects that option.

I do not know of anyone here whose WS came back only after Plan A, especially if they had moved out to live with the OP. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

Your husband knows that you will wait forever for him. So why shouldn't he go out and have his fun? He knows you will still be waiting for him whenever the fun runs out and he feels like coming home for a while.

Plan B would force him to get off the fence and not go through each day assuming he can keep Eav on the back burner for as long as he likes. That's why it works.

Plan A breeds love, but Plan B breeds *respect*.

You can't have love without respect.

Now do you see why you get the same responses every time?
Mulan

Reactivity, Eav...

Why do you continually choose to react instead of act?

Ouch!

Posters have no idea what your filter is...what you are hearing from them...they do know what they are saying.

Sounds like you resent and feel anger when someone advises you to take your focus off your WH...which would be the same advice in recovery, if he was FWH...or your old H...same thing...great advice for marriage.

What does focus mean? Focus means that you concentrate on what you are doing, saying, feeling, believing and perceiving...your choice of acts of love...which, when you do them, feel gratifying and loving, no matter what the response is...how you learn about yourself, what your emotions mean, your perception and perspective...respecting your partner to share their own...concentrating on being safe to be shared with.

Which is why during Plan B your focus stays where you have control...on yourself...going over those first 15 years and where you found your H as your dearest friend and why...and how did he become your enemy...from inside you out...not from within him.

You chose your H for reasons which remain...and they are about you. Getting to know and understand your own reasons, needs, wants, desires, ENs and LBs is the healthiest part of Plan B...and Plan A.

Gentle, internal contemplation...not condemnation. If your only reason for Plan B is to save your marriage...then you may very well save your marriage and have the one back which is still full of unanswered questions about you, your part, your half...and recreate a false recovery between the two of you, doing the same dance and ending up with the same results...not all him, not all you...in the middle, both...so use Plan B to get to your part, your deep understanding of your own standards and boundaries; understanding where your feelings are coming from...and how you envision a healthy relationship....lots to do in your mind, your heart...

Besides looking at why your H does what he does...without him there, telling you, revealing, sharing, highest honesty...which he isn't.

You are.

All posters caring so deeply for you, telling you their truth and I see you snap at them. Delete your post. Take your ball and go home.

That's my filter...may not be what you're doing. Instanteous decisions are reactive....give yourself a day to act...feel time stretch and snap back and then...level out.

And I wouldn't have posted all of this if I haven't seen you react before, like a pattern...when you're hurting...did you look into NPD so you could understand what attracts you to the NPD? What parts of yourself you'd like to own, which you found safe for your H to have, but not you? How about parts you suppress? Envy isn't an awful feeling...alerts us to where we long for what we have pushed down or disowned which we already have and won't acknowledge...

Lots of really great ways to make Plan B be the time you learned you were already healthy, whole, marvelously made...just as everyone else on the planet...and learned to love and forgive yourself well and true...

As well as save your marriage.

LA

Loving:

I am responding not for Eav but for myself because I soo relate to Eav...and I have been wondering what it is about us..what it is about ME....

I think I may have figured it out...



Ouch back. You recall how I am a REACTER? That impulsive response that comes if you don't respond before you do your DEEP BREATHING....That ANGRY reaction that causes me to YELL and to THROW....which I don't do anymore because I've learn to STOP MYSELF and RELAX....



There are two parts of this FOR ME..wondering if it's the same for EAV...

I FEEL ANGRY WHEN I AM MISUNDERSTOOD... You are reading the Bradshaw stuff and I know EXACTLY where this comes from...The little girl inside of me felt misunderstood by my mother and my father really...MY MOTHER CONTINUES TO MISUNDERSTAND ME and wants me to BE WHO SHE WANTS ME TO BE... SHE JUST DOESN'T GET IT!!!

This is what I've been trying to support Eav with..while also helping myself... LOVING ME FOR WHO I AM... .regardless of of how other feel about me...that's what I'm wanting for Eav..for Eav to ACCEPT that others may not understand her without feeling rejected and then ANGERED by this...

I learned all of this mother stuff in psychotherapy, BTW...happened to talk to my therapist today..that was neat...I remember him telling me not to go to my mother for help in dealing with my H' affair.."she won't get it"..how to help you..and when I did talk to her and she didn't understand..I would get ENRAGED...and feel REJECTED..like it seems that Eav is doing here....

You see, despite his A, summing up my whole life, I still experience my H as having treated me better and loved me more than my parents..and he seems to understand me BEST...I wonder if this is what Eav is dealing with...

In the end, though, like you, I want Eav to learn to love and to treasure HERSELF..I think she is getting there..but it takes us longer, I think..those of us with that SAD, DEPRESSIVE CORE coming from early emotional abuse....

Eav,

There is a huge difference between exhibiting narcissism and NPD. The first is a temporary state of being and the latter IS the unchangeable lifelong character. With heavy emphasis on the unchangeable.

And plus, for those who are interested in such psychological matters, I just realized something major that I was BLOCKING...

A major discovery in my psychotherapy was that MY PARENTS are actually NPD..well, my father WAS because he is deceased...

Mimi,

I believe your DH treats you better, nurtures and loves you better than your FOO did...and you picked him and he picked you to do just that...to work through all the positive and negative stuff...together...which is why an A is like a death...a second one...when our needs weren't met as children, and we built trust that through our OWN choice of mate, we found the caretaker we could trust not to kill us.

Then they did.

And because of that, we learn how to heal each other, which heals ourselves, in recovery. Your counselor's advice was great...because your mother lives in expectations and fantasy...much the way waywards do...so during DH's A, well, that was essentially double betrayal.

Children react...you learned that. Adults choose their actions from their own code...not react to others' stuff. You did a lot of self-discovery, hard work during your Plan B...and you continue to learn about yourself, why what your mother says and does sets you off...so you can finally see where you end and she begins...separate and equal human beings. That's what I was urging, and have urged before, Eav do. Do what Mimi does...God's connected both of you to learn more, from each other.

I was narcissistic...until I became conscious. I liked the definition Slimjim posted on Slick50's thread the best. And I think I've learned more about why this isn't truly a disease...but a result of the way we are made. We have an old brain and a new brain. Old brain is like an on/off button...has few questions...is it safe? Will this person nurture me in all ways or will they kill me...life or death (which isn't reasonable, just reactionary). Sound familiar? Your Mom says "Oh, you're not like that. You're this way. You don't feel that, you feel this." And your reaction is strong, overwhelming...old brain saying, "She's annihilating who you are."

Well, in God's marvelous design, this old brain isn't bad, has a purpose. See, it sees everything you do as if you're doing it for you...so when you are generous to others, it sees you as being generous to you...we often take everything to be about us...our old brain doing it's thing. Well, when you heal your partner, are safe to hear their truth, their stuff...then you are healing yourself, and your old brain feels safe.

When you are defining your partner, possibly finding them incapable or defective, old brain takes that as YOUR being incapable or defective.

If this is Eav's way of finding out she isn't the cause, control or cure for any other human being on the planet...finding her healthy limits and inherent power, then I could better understand her intent.

I don't right now. I only see her strong reaction...coming from the old brain...hearing people telling her she's wrong or bad or something...which is a kind of death.

Going into our new brains, where we choose, are conscious, contemplate, investigate and consider...helps us assure old brain, we are not children to be caretaken...we are capable and not defective. We know we choose our actions, words, perceptions, perspectives, thoughts and beliefs...we have that power...which is where we love from, find joy, solace and peace within...and acceptance.

In Hendrix' "Getting the love you want" you will find that because your father was this way, you CHOSE your H for not being that way...until he was...so you could work through and conquer this realization, heal from your father not giving you what you needed...and why you felt comfortable when you met your DH, because of the positive and the negative.

You're a thriver, Mimi. You are sharing your way to greatness, I believe. Thank you for being here...open to discovering without judgment...and seeing where the wholeness of marriage takes two people conscious of their own wholeness...and a willingness to be there throughout the journey, as partners.

I remember Plan B as you described was guarding what remained of your love for your WH...and dwelling on ways he hurt you made him an enemy in your old brain...not safe...out to kill...so the love bank would be drained away without a new single word or action from WH...and choosing to see the human in him made a difference. Do I remember correctly?

LA