I was re reading SAA this morning. Harley is big on the moving forward concept, it seems to me. He advises NOT talking about the affair, but moving out of the past because nothing good can come of it. So much on the boards here, is opposite of this. Harley also DOESN't feel that an apology is necessary (what??). I really wasn't getting that part. My FWH is in the beginning of that book right now and I can just imagine what he will say to me when he reads this.

On the opposite side of this, the Janis Abram Spring's book, How Can I Forgive You, says "genuine forgiviness" cannot be obtained unless you DO talk about it, release it, etc., etc.

Any thoughts on this?

rlt,

I think the experts are just like the BS. They don't all agree. LOL.

As far as radical honesty is concerned I see some BS' that want to know about every single detail including the gorry ones. Others want to know about general things and tha is it.

I really don't believe IMVHO that anyone has a right to tell a BS what level of knowledge is enough to move on. I think it is up to the BS.

What really, really bites my a55 about this sometimes is that in order to figure me out my MC went back to when I was 5 years old and wanted to know my life story. Same with the FWW.

Talks about how something that happened when I was 8 traumatized me and see how it may effect me today. But can't talk about the event when I was 34 that traumatized me. LOL.

I think quite frankly the FWS messed up the M with the A let the BS decide what they need to recover and forgive.

frog,

I agree with th ecounselor thing. I had the same experience, wanting to talk about how I felt when my dad left my mom when I was 12. Not so sure, but I darn know how I feel about FWH's adultery. I never thought of that, how they think it's more valuable to drudge up the past, rather than talking about the present. Ridiculous.

I've already given SAA to FWH. He NEVER wants to affair talk ... now, he will have back up.

To me it is wierd.

I am a logical person and I do agree that some of the things in my past have shaped me into who I am today. The more significant the event the more impact it has on me today.

I think it is valuable to talk about the past. If you don't learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it. I just don't see how not talking about the A is different.

For me so far we have discusse my child hood, my part in the deterioration of the M before the A, what has happened after the A (my part) and where we are now. There is a big black whole in there that is taboo.

frog,

You bring up another part of the Harley book I'm not in full agreement with. Yes, I may not have been the best spouse pre A, but I wasn't the worst, either. I just don't think ANYTHING justifies their affair. I don't like Harley saying that we, the BS, are partly to blame. Maybe I'm shrugging responsibility here, but I just don't think so.

The whole childhood thing for me, well that was 30 years ago! Did I forgive? As best I could. I have a decent relationship with my father. I NEVER bring it up. Sure, it has residual effects. It cracks me up that my IC says I have "Abandonment issues." No sh** Sherlock. I didn't need to pay you 70 dollars for a 50 minute session for you to tell me THAT. My dad left. My FWH left for a time. OF COURSE I hav abandoment issues. So what?!?!

I don't remember Harley advising against talking about the A. Can you point me out to that? I think the part you're referring to might be about resentment, but I think it was more related to LB'ers during the conversation. That if all a person is going to do during the conversation is make the other person feel guilty, then to stop the conversations.

Harley also DOESN't feel that an apology is necessary (what??).

What? And that’s not an echo.

Here is what Dr H writes about apologies right here on his website:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5061_qa.html

You will read in that article, “Why do I encourage an apology when the Takers are adamantly opposed to offering them? Because an apology is really in order (they did, in fact, hurt each other), and it also helps settle down the Takers, as long as they both apologize. S.C.'s wife knows that she did the wrong thing when she had an affair. It's her defensive Taker that will not let her apologize. But if she could let her defenses down for one moment and honesty express her Giver's regret for what she had done, it would give S.C. some encouragement."

"But once apologies are made, a couple should move on to the business of rebuilding their relationship, and not dwell on the mistakes of their past. As much as you may want to talk about the affair or about any other mistake made, remember that every conversation on those subjects withdraw love units. And a Love Bank must first be overflowing with love units before you are in a position to waste any.“

Also, see: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html .


It’s sort of like the difference between theory (HCIFY) and real-in-the-world practice (SAA/HNHN) isn't it.

With prayers,

A, I'm going to read the above articles, but I'm looking on page 84 of the book, "I've found that an apology is not always necessary for a full marital recovery to take place after an affair."

I dunno. I was perusing the book this morning and it just seemed to me that Jon, the BS, was putting up with SO MUCH. It almost felt like, yeah, you CAN survive an affair if you want, but at WHAT COST?? And is it really worth it. It just seems like that poor Jon guy was so humiliated, so stomped all over. And then his wife comes back and makes it sound like it was all HIS fault. I don't know. It all just gave me a yuck feeling ... like, I don't want to be this poor schlock. Maybe I'm just having a bad day?

Standing, I'm looking in the book now, about the no affair talk part. When I find the page, I'll let you know ...

I think the WS should absolutely be an open book, BUT it's up to the BS to decide whether they want to read that book or not.

I would add..and to deal with that intel once they have read it.

Wow, this is just the subject I've been grappling with the past week.

I've been at my FWH about details of things - got out of him that he had kissing things with 3 other women etc. I think I have a right to know the basics but a part of me wants to know heaps of gory details that ultimately hurt.

It is making things harder for us so I should stop, I know.
Guess I misunderstood about the policy of radical honesty.

As for apologies, I would love my husband to tell me every day that he is sorry. This thing took 19 years of enjoyment from my life where he betrayed the total trust I had in him.

He just says "I said I was sorry and I'm doing everything you ask. I just want to concentrate on the future because I can no longer do anything about the past."

This Link seems to dismiss the idea that Dr. Harley discourages affair talk and that an apology is a bad thing.

It's always been a issue of min ethatteh first example in "Surviving an affair" is where the WW is the nastiest, most entitled and unapologetic WW I think I have ever seen. Most FWS when they earn the "f" are VERY apologetic indeed.

bp,

You beat me to the punch on this one.

Dr Harley seems to value compensation over apologies. He refers to it as "just compensation", which implies that is the right thing to do.

Saying "I'm sorry." is easy, showing that you are remorseful is much harder.

As a BS, do not ask for an apology, let it be worked out by WS's actions.

Mark

I think autumn has it right. The FWS should be an open book and the BS should decide what chapters to read.

Each BS is different in what they need to move on. If it is every stinking detail then that's what the FWS should give them. (I believe that is unproductive myself, but it is not for me to decide for others)

So if the FWS has the audacity to actually do these things then they should certainly tell the BS what they want to know.

I would love an apologetic, sympathetic, empathetic FWS. One that instead of fighting for every thing she has given will just give what is needed.